Sex-positive vs. sex-negative feminist variants

[Ostrinski]

Does anyone have a strong opinion either way?

[Misanthrope]

Could you show examples of the two please?

[Caj]

Regarding pornography (which seems to be the primary issue that seperates the two positions), I think "sex-negative feminists" (do they call themselves that?) are wrong. Every Marxist should recognize that the exploiters are the bourgeois, not the consumers. This same principle applies to the for-profit porn industry.

[Ostrinski]

From a theoretical standpoint is what I meant. The idea of empowerment of women through sexual means vs. viewing sexuality as an agency easily exploited through patriarchal relations. Of course, as socialists, we understand that the capitalist mode of production and class society are the last generators of patriarchy, but within a capitalist framework is what I'm referring to.

[Ostrinski]

Regarding pornography (which seems to be the primary issue that seperates the two positions), I think "sex-negative feminists" (do they call themselves that?) are wrong. Every Marxist should recognize that the exploiters are the bourgeois, not the consumers. This same principle applies to the for-profit porn industry.Upon further looking, I can't find the term "sex negative," but it seems appropriate for an opposition to sex-positive feminism from a feminist perspective.

[Caj]

The idea of empowerment of women through sexual means vs. viewing sexuality as an agency easily exploited through patriarchal relations.

Well, why should we consider those two things mutually exclusive? Sexuality has the potential for both empowerment and perpetuating patriarchical relations.

[Ostrinski]

Well, why should we consider those two things mutually exclusive? Sexuality has the potential for both empowerment and perpetuating patriarchical relations.I agree with you. But I was curious to see if anyone had sway either way.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Pornography is a major issue. Sex pos feminists argue it's not inherently misogynistic and exploitative, but can be under certain parameters. Sex neg feminists argue it always is.

It's also been my personal experience that misandry and transphobia are sometimes part of sex neg feminism.

[PhoenixAsh]

You do realise that sex negative goes a little further than the topic of pornography, right?

It is about the position on the topic of sexual liberation of women.

For most feminist issues there is no or extremely little difference between sex positive and sex negative feminism. The positions do not differ.

It is the specific issue of sexuality of women and men where the huge differences come into play. Sex negative feminists (basically speaking) argue that sexual freedom and liberation is not something that is freeing women but rather serves as an extension of male privilege. And when it gets more radical we get positions that state that any sexual intercourse or act with a man and even the mere arousal when thinking about sexual exiting a man is subjegating women and that men should not have their own sexuality because it is inherrently oppressing to women.

That is the center of the devide and pornography and prostitution are side issues which stem from the position one takes on sexuality within patriarchy.

[Ostrinski]

Sex negative feminists (basically speaking) argue that sexual freedom and liberation is not something that is freeing women but rather serves as an extension of male privilege.Isn't there some legitimacy to this though, at least where bourgeois hegemony exists? In patriarchal society sexuality is one of the main agencies by which women are subjugated. How do sex positives deal with the question of objectification?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

You do realise that sex negative goes a little further than the topic of pornography, right?
Of course. I was just addressing that point that was raised.


For most feminist issues there is no or extremely little difference between sex positive and sex negative feminism. The positions do not differ.
I think that's overstating it a bit, but I generally agree.


It is the specific issue of sexuality of women and men where the huge differences come into play.
Another issue is sex negative feminists are more likely to be transphobic than sex positive feminists, in my experience.

[manic expression]

And when it gets more radical we get positions that state that any sexual intercourse or act with a man and even the mere arousal when thinking about sexual exiting a man is subjegating women and that men should not have their own sexuality because it is inherrently oppressing to women.
The fact that this is even taken seriously is insane.


Isn't there some legitimacy to this though, at least where bourgeois hegemony exists? In patriarchal society sexuality is one of the main agencies by which women are subjugated. How do sex positives deal with the question of objectification?
On the contrary, in traditionalist patriarchal societies, sexuality is one of the few areas of life where women do have significant power and can in some instances extend it into the political realm.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The fact that this is even taken seriously is insane.

Yeah. I thought this was just a stereotype of feminism until someone linked to a wingnut website featuring a self-described feminist claiming that literally all heterosexual sex is an act of coercion against women. Another time a user on this board informed us all that if you think about women when you jerk off, you're engaged in sexist objectification of them.

I assume viewpoints like that are in the extreme minority, though.

[Regicollis]

Isn't there some legitimacy to this though, at least where bourgeois hegemony exists? In patriarchal society sexuality is one of the main agencies by which women are subjugated. How do sex positives deal with the question of objectification?

There might be some legitimacy to that position. Women today (and to an increasing degree also men) are experiencing a consumerist imperative to be more provocative and more "perfect" looking than they would be comfortable with in a free society.

However I think the degree of sexual liberation we have achieved today is to be preferred for women as well as for men when considering what went before. I don't think anybody would want to turn time back to the prudishness of the 50's.

[zoot_allures]

I tend to be pretty hedonistic about sex, so I'm definitely on the sex-positive side. I love sex, I love porn, and I don't have a problem with domination/submission, bondage, sexual degradation, etc; furthermore, if I were in charge, there'd be no laws banning group marriages, incest, bestiality, public nudity, public sex, etc.

That said, I agree that there are serious problems with pornography, prostitution, etc; it's just that I see them as being a result of wider problems with society in general, rather something than instrinsic to those professions. Pushing to outlaw such things is just not helpful in my view. We need more liberation, not less.