NK Defectors To China Being Sent Back.

[Susurrus]

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2012/02/17/2012021700960.html

If this interests, btw, I recommend the documentary "Seoul Train."

[Zostrianos]

As usual they'll probably be executed and their families will get deported to camps.
And China doesn't give a shit.

[Prometeo liberado]

Why is it that when a NK leaves its called "defection" as in a political decision. When a latin american does it they are just "illegal aliens", outlaw wanderers that must be deported?

[PhoenixAsh]

Well...I kind of agree...but seeing as NK sees it as a political decision as well......

[Prometeo liberado]

Well...I kind of agree...but seeing as NK sees it as a political decision as well......
My point exactly. Only why are the migrant workers, and the countries they flee from not scrutinized as hard by the left. The need to constantly champion a poor worker from a communist country often comes at the expense of a far greater number of poor workers from capitalist countries.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Why is it that when a NK leaves its called "defection" as in a political decision. When a latin american does it they are just "illegal aliens", outlaw wanderers that must be deported?It's used domestically to create a false enemy and instill fear in the population.
Remember what Hermann Goring told his shrink during the Nuremberg trials?

[seventeethdecember2016]

I think we're fed the Totalitarian rhetoric way to much. North Korea obviously doesn't execute defectors, that would be barbaric. They are likely put back into work, and watched closely by the NK secret police. For those that help smuggle them out of the country, however, they will likely be punished harshly.

[Ostrinski]

I think we're fed the Totalitarian rhetoric way to much. North Korea obviously doesn't execute defectors, that would be barbaric. They are likely put back into work, and watched closely by the NK secret police. For those that help smuggle them out of the country, however, they will likely be punished harshly.I agree. Barbarity simply is not a part of the North Korean regime's repertoire.

[Prometeo liberado]

It's used domestically to create a false enemy and instill fear in the population.
Remember what Hermann Goring told his shrink during the Nuremberg trials?
I was being facetious but thank you. As for what Goring said please elaborate. The only thing I remember reading him saying after capture is that he needed his schnapps. "I drink a gallon a day. If you were in charge of exterminating millions of Jews what would you drink?" I think he was being facetious as well.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

I was being facetious but thank you. As for what Goring said please elaborate. The only thing I remember reading him saying after capture is that he needed his schnapps. "I drink a gallon a day. If you were in charge of exterminating millions of Jews what would you drink?" I think he was being facetious as well.
Sarcasm doesn't really translate into text, my fault.

This bit he told his shrink (http://www.amazon.com/Nuremberg-Diary-G-M-Gilbert/dp/0306806614%3FSubscriptionId%3DAKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q %26tag%3Dduckduckgo-z-20%26linkCode%3Dxm2%26camp%3D2025%26creative%3D165 953%26creativeASIN%3D0306806614)

Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship. ...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country. Not literally used to garner support for a war, in the case of "illegal immigration" ... you get what I'm saying.

[Prometeo liberado]

Thanks for that. Goring had sometimes insightful sometimes very dark things to say. None of which should ever be forgotten.:thumbup1:

[Zostrianos]

I think we're fed the Totalitarian rhetoric way to much. North Korea obviously doesn't execute defectors, that would be barbaric.

SAQE7kDwPZY

Leaving NK is considered high treason from what I've heard.

[seventeethdecember2016]

SAQE7kDwPZY

Leaving NK is considered high treason from what I've heard.
Are we really going to take ONE case of injustice to mean that this will happen to ALL defectors?
I've also read that NK has the fewest defector rate in the world, according to a 2002 statistic, so they probably deal with it in a Bureaucratic fashion.

[Krano]

Are we really going to take ONE case of injustice to mean that this will happen to ALL defectors?
I've also read that NK has the fewest defector rate in the world, according to a 2002 statistic, so they probably deal with it in a Bureaucratic fashion.
Give credit to electric fences,minefields and armed soldiers for that low defection rate.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Give credit to electric fences,minefields and armed soldiers for that low defection rate.
Perhaps, but then again, there is a large smuggling ring in that nation.

[Susurrus]

As I said, for those interested in NK defectors, watch the documentary Seoul Train. Or anyone just interested in NK in general.


TgBBTANnG10

[seventeethdecember2016]

As I said, for those interested in NK defectors, watch the documentary Seoul Train. Or anyone just interested in NK in general.

Very interesting, but this video seems to make assumptions based on a relatively small fraction of NK army/police. So a few soldiers get a little over zealous and brutally attack defectors every now and then. I wonder how many US border patrol do this to Mexican illegals as they cross the border. Only a few years ago a US marine went into Mexican territory for reportedly hearing gun shots coming at his direction, and then he shot an innocent man walking home.
I often disregard these things as Liberal garbage, seeing that NK has been in economic stagnation and depression since the disillusion of the USSR and Eastern Bloc. NK won't accept foreign help because it often comes with conditions. Usually it comes in the tune of Disarm, Sign Peace, Nuke talks, blablablablabla.

North Korea has no reason to shoot defectors, and a few video recordings should not be taken as proof of any such thing. Further, the defector population only represents a small minority of North Koreans. Some Americans will ignorantly take illegal Aliens as the example of Mexico, but they are far from correct. Mexico is a thriving country, and the aliens are those who haven't gotten their share of the 'pie'. Mexico can't make it so everyone in the country thrives, so they do their best with the majority of the populous, and North Korea is the same.

I try to take a 3rd person perspective, unlike the Liberal media in this case.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

No offense, but you seem to really be stretching the limits of reason for the sake of giving the DPRK the benefit of the doubt.

North Korea's motives to use force to dissuade desertion are clear if you are even mildly cynical about the regime there. Defectors mean possible opposition figures abroad, as well as providing a useful link between people inside the country and those outside.

[seventeethdecember2016]

No offense, but you seem to really be stretching the limits of reason for the sake of giving the DPRK the benefit of the doubt.

North Korea's motives to use force to dissuade desertion are clear if you are even mildly cynical about the regime there. Defectors mean possible opposition figures abroad, as well as providing a useful link between people inside the country and those outside.
Perhaps your correct, but they don't show it on mass media so what would be the point of using this as a fear tactic. I doubt we'll see things like this in a decade from North Korea, but they have a duty, at the moment, to keep any stability together. If the country falls apart again, like in the '90s, we could see anything from a unification with the South to who knows what. Let's let the North plot its own course and see where it is going.

I thought a Defector was a deserter of the state, thanks for clearing that up.

[Zostrianos]

The evidence isn't based on this one video. There are countless independent sources, as well as defectors who've escaped and talked about what happens there. Here's some more footage, which shows the results of the "army first" policy - poor kids dying of malnutrition in the streets and eating out of dumpsters, while soldiers watch and eat ice cream:
zgNr5FIqILE

[Zostrianos]

Here's a documentary about the concentration camps:
R6JOMvOwECo

[seventeethdecember2016]

The evidence isn't based on this one video. There are countless independent sources, as well as defectors who've escaped and talked about what happens there. Here's some more footage, which shows the results of the "army first" policy - poor kids dying of malnutrition in the streets and eating out of dumpsters, while soldiers watch and eat ice cream:
My heart goes out to those that were/are shot.

As I stated earlier, North Korea is reestablishing itself after the collapse of the USSR and Eastern Bloc. North Korea no long has the resources it once had, which has plummeted the nation into the abyss.

North Korea is only now starting to come back, but the Liberals want it to collapse, citing events that happened a decade ago.

Perhaps it is the fact that 80-90% of North Korea's current trade is with China and Russia that causes these shortages? Perhaps it is the economic sanctions, that causes these shortages? Nope, they all jump to the same conclusion. This developing country is evil because of events done years ago, so let's replace it with one less evil.

Now a more reasonable position is for North Korea to reform itself, which it is doing, but not too fast, because we don't want it to go the path of the SU.

I'm confident that by 2020 the North Korean GDP per-capita will be 5k+, which will take North Korea into a new age. No Juche! No Songun! No Western Meddling!

[Susurrus]

So what, a higher GDP will fix all of NK's problems? Yeah, that certainly worked with China...

[GoddessCleoLover]

What can one say about a country where they shoot people who try to flee? I hope that some day Kim Jong Un and the rest of that clique face the justified wrath of the Korean proletariat.

[seventeethdecember2016]

So what, a higher GDP will fix all of NK's problems? Yeah, that certainly worked with China...
China has gotten substantially less oppressive since the '80s and '90s, so you proved my point.

[Susurrus]

China has gotten substantially less oppressive since the '80s and '90s, so you proved my point.

For the wealthy, yes. For everybody else, however...

[Deicide]

It's used domestically to create a false enemy and instill fear in the population.
Remember what Hermann Goring told his shrink during the Nuremberg trials?

No, refresh my memory?

*edit* I just noticed the quote on the first page.


Here's a documentary about the concentration camps:
R6JOMvOwECo

This is just capitalist pig propaganda!!!11

[Zostrianos]

This is just capitalist pig propaganda!!!11

Yep. They're all actors paid by the US and South Korea to make the North look bad :rolleyes:

[Deicide]

Yep. They're all actors paid by the US and South Korea to make the North look bad :rolleyes:

AH! Denying reality! You'd make a brilliant stalinist with such astute thinking! ;)

:D

[seventeethdecember2016]

Yep. They're all actors paid by the US and South Korea to make the North look bad :rolleyes:
Let's not completely talk down what he claimed. After watching a South Korean TV station called Arirang, which broadcasts in English, I have found huge inconsistencies with how the US and Western Nations portray North Korea. The South takes a more honest and less propagandist view of the North, rather they give a fair bow to North Korean sovereignty but they also bring up repression every now and then.

Did you know North Korea just came out with a phone app? I didn't even know they had cell phones! Thanks to Arirang, I now know what Western Propaganda won't let me know.

[Zostrianos]

I don't deny that maybe some of the info that's reported may be inaccurate or just hearsay, but most of the bad stuff has been independently confirmed.
As for cellphones, I remember a couple of years back the NK government finally allowed people to have them, but just a few months after they banned them.
An experiment I always propose to people who think NK is actually a free country and a great place to live, and that all the bad stuff is false or propaganda is this: go to North Korea and publicly criticize or mock the Kims and see what happens.

[l'Enfermé]

Perhaps your correct, but they don't show it on mass media so what would be the point of using this as a fear tactic. I doubt we'll see things like this in a decade from North Korea, but they have a duty, at the moment, to keep any stability together. If the country falls apart again, like in the '90s, we could see anything from a unification with the South to who knows what. Let's let the North plot its own course and see where it is going.

I thought a Defector was a deserter of the state, thanks for clearing that up.
A unification with the South, even though it will mean a huge exodus of the Northern population to the South and a creation of a new under-class, would still mean a great improvement of quality of life for all North Koreans and should be supported by anyone that genuinely cares about the well-being of North Koreans.

[seventeethdecember2016]

A unification with the South, even though it will mean a huge exodus of the Northern population to the South and a creation of a new under-class, would still mean a great improvement of quality of life for all North Koreans and should be supported by anyone that genuinely cares about the well-being of North Koreans.
That would mean China has a Capitalist neighbor to deal with. No thank you.

North Korea needs a stronger union with China, not South Korea.

Heck, China already makes up 70% of North Korea's trade.


An experiment I always propose to people who think NK is actually a free country and a great place to live, and that all the bad stuff is false or propaganda is this: go to North Korea and publicly criticize or mock the Kims and see what happens.
I never made such a claim if this was directed towards me. I acknowledge the North as a Feudal Oppressive nation.

[Ostrinski]

North Korea needs a stronger union with China, not South Korea.

Heck, China already makes up 70% of North Korea's trade.What's the difference between one capitalist and the other? Are you actually implying that China isn't capitalist? A "union" can only be as strong as what North Korea actually has to offer China in terms of trade (not much).

[Deicide]

How dare they leave the North Korean Utopia?! These capitalist sympathisers deserve what they get!

[seventeethdecember2016]

What's the difference between one capitalist and the other? Are you actually implying that China isn't capitalist? A "union" can only be as strong as what North Korea actually has to offer China in terms of trade (not much).
China is, at least I hope, a Marxist-Leninist country. They are building up their economy to soon become Socialist. So yes, China is Capitalist at the moment. Will it be forever? Hopefully not.

Will South Korea stay Capitalist? I'm not sure on this one. Liberals seem to distort their nations so much that I can't even tell anymore. Regardless, South Korea, even if they have a Socialist tendency, would promote the 3rd Way.

I will admit that I'm a Conservative Marxist-Leninist, so pardon me for my skepticism towards the fall of North Korea.

[Ostrinski]

China is, at least I hope, a Marxist-Leninist country. They are building up their economy to soon become Socialist. So yes, China is Capitalist at the moment. Will it be forever? Hopefully not.China is a nation-state, therefore operates within the constraints of the laws of capital and the global market, and has an exchange-oriented productive program. What is Marxist-Leninist about any of this? The fact that the ruling party is calls itself communist and they fly red flags? I hate ML's as much as the next person, but I have never seen an ML characterize post-Mao China as Marxist-Leninist.

The only thing the Chinese bureaucracy is building up its economy for is further dominance in the global market. You seem to think that the bureaucrats operated above and independently of the Chinese bourgeoisie, when in fact the bureaucracy is just the extension of the class jurisprudence of the Chinese bourgeoisie.


Will South Korea stay Capitalist? I'm not sure on this one. Liberals seem to distort their nations so much that I can't even tell anymore. Regardless, South Korea, even if they have a Socialist tendency, would promote the 3rd Way.Wtf are you talking about


I will admit that I'm a Conservative Marxist-Leninist, so pardon me for my skepticism towards the fall of North Korea.I will admit that I'm a Marxist so pardon my mskepticis towards support for a capitalist state.

[seventeethdecember2016]

China is a nation-state, therefore operates within the constraints of the laws of capital and the global market, and has an exchange-oriented productive program. What is Marxist-Leninist about any of this? The fact that the ruling party is calls itself communist and they fly red flags? I hate ML's as much as the next person, but I have never seen an ML characterize post-Mao China as Marxist-Leninist.
The only thing the Chinese bureaucracy is building up its economy for is further dominance in the global market. You seem to think that the bureaucrats operated above and independently of the Chinese bourgeoisie, when in fact the bureaucracy is just the extension of the class jurisprudence of the Chinese bourgeoisie.
I challenge your claim that I'm the only ML to say such a thing, but otherwise I agree with 80% of what your saying. I will admit that China is only vaguely following Marxist-Leninist concepts, but there is a very large Grassroots in the CPC and I doubt it will let China become the exact thing they oppose.

How dare they leave the North Korean Utopia?! These capitalist sympathisers deserve what they get!
Are you a troll?

[Ostrinski]

I challenge your claim that I'm the only ML to say such a thingAnti-revisionists follow the Hoxhaist line in being critical of the Chinese Revolution from the start, while the Maoists hold that the counter-revolution came about after Mao's death. I know of no other significant ML tendency besides Titoism, and I don't know their position on the matter.


I will admit that China is only vaguely following Marxist-Leninist concepts, but there is a very large Grassroots in the CPC and I doubt it will let China become the exact thing they oppose.What do you mean "become?" The CPC is just the extension of bourgeois class power. Your "Marxist-Leninist concepts" seem to be abstract, in that you haven't identified how they serve a particular class. There is nothing to follow if there is no use for it.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Your "Marxist-Leninist concepts" seem to be abstract, in that you haven't identified how they serve a particular class. There is nothing to follow if there is no use for it.
I feel as though I've given enough information earlier in this thread that answer what you've said here.
I will admit China has distanced itself from ML since Deng, but I feel as though, and perhaps I'm just naive, China will return to ML eventually. Can I prove this? No. It takes quite a while to come up with a compelling thesis and evidence to back it up, which I'm not going to spend with a trivial debate.

Now back to North Korea. I put the development of Socialism, and thus freedom of all sorts, to start by 2025. This is assuming that Jong-un and the Bureaucracy can keep the stabilization that it currently has.

[Deicide]

Are you a troll?

No. But I like irony.

[seventeethdecember2016]

No. But I like irony.
Irony? Elaborate on that please.

[Deicide]

Irony? Elaborate on that please.

The Kim dynasty paints itself as the saviours of the proletariat and it paints North Korea as a Utopia. The proletariat try and escape this fascist state. Now surely, if North Korea was a glorious Utopia as the Feudalist party claims, why is the proletariat (trying to at least) leaving?

This is the irony.

In all fucking seriousness Kim Il Sung read 1984 and thought it'd be a good idea.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Thanks for elaborating as I asked.


In all fucking seriousness Kim Il Sung read 1984 and thought it'd be a good idea.
What??? Is this some kind of Urban Legend?

[Deicide]

Thanks for elaborating as I asked.

What??? Is this some kind of Urban Legend?

Haha no, it's just a joke. But damn! the resemblance is striking. :D

[seventeethdecember2016]

Haha no, it's just a joke. But damn! the resemblance is striking. :D

Quite. It does seem like he did read it and used it as a model.