North-Korea

[The Cheshire Cat]

Like everyone else, often I hear about the terrible crimes comitted in North-Korea. Deathcamps, people getting shot for not loving their leaders enough, ect. etc. etc.

But simultaneously I hear about how closed North-Korea is, that no news about North-Korea can be trusted and that you only see what 'they' want you to see. So my question is, has anyone ever been to North-Korea, or has anyone lived there or something like that? Because I think alot of people would like to know what is exactly going on in N-Korea, and all we really get to hear is the usual capaganda (short for capitalist propaganda, but I kinda like the sound of 'capaganda'. Sounds like some Spanish dance or something).

I'm not saying there is nothing wrong in N-Korea, because obviously there is, like the way they worship their leader and that there are statues all over the country. Ofcourse they should have used the money for improving their food-production instead of building monuments and expanding their army.

But who knows how N-Koreans think? It's a total different culture than that of the most of us. Isn't it more usual to worship your leaders in N-Korean culture that in other cultures, for example?

Another thing that's supposed to be bad about N-Korea is their foreign policies, the way they are closed to the world. Because of that, they are able to suppress their population without anyone knowing about it. But it has been a closed country since the 16th century. And if they would throw their borders wide open, capitalism would arrive in no-time ofcourse, and they would not be able to maintain their current way of living. Again, I'm not saying the people of N-Korea are living good lives.

So what are your thoughts about N-Korea? And don't tell me it is all terible and stuff, but ground your arguments with sources, please. And if anyone of you has ever been to N-Korea, please tell us about it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I've heard that if you want to read at night, you have to stand real close to one of the countless glowing Kim Il Sung portraits.

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/wpp021512/s_w02_10110421.jpg

[daft punk]

I dunno why you think it has been closed since the 16th century. It was all one country until the Russians and Americans partitioned it at the end of WW2. However it was occupied by the Japanese from 1905 to 1945.

As you say they spend far too much on the military. The other problem is that NK is cold and hilly so not the best pace to grow food. The people have little food or heating, and no contact with the outside world.

They gave up pretending to be communist and now just label it a military state. There is some capitalism there. It is a Stalinist dictatorship anyway.

They are very poor and South Korea is fairly well off, but in fact in the 1970s people in the North were on higher incomes than the ones in the South.

NK is a military buffer and a source of minerals for China.

Most apartments only have one light bulb. It really is that shit.

They do not try to buy food from other countries because it is against the principles of their particular version of Stalinism, the Juche ideology.

"Socialism" In One Country. They used to worship Stalin but gradually distanced themselves from him (in words that is).

Obviously when China opened up to foreign trade, NK did not.

Basically they try to make out that Juche is a completely new ideology, but it is really recycled Stalinism.

[robbo203]

Another thing that's supposed to be bad about N-Korea is their foreign policies, the way they are closed to the world. Because of that, they are able to suppress their population without anyone knowing about it. But it has been a closed country since the 16th century. And if they would throw their borders wide open, capitalism would arrive in no-time ofcourse, and they would not be able to maintain their current way of living. Again, I'm not saying the people of N-Korea are living good lives..

Sorry but you are misinformed. North Korea IS a capitalist country albeit it state run. Generalised wage labour - the hallmark of capitalism - exists and indeed the North Korean ruling class proudly markets the advantages of investing in North Korea precisely on the grounds of having a dirt cheap and pliable workforce. Not only that , far from opposing imperialism, North Korea enthusiastically embraces imperialism in the form of its giant neighbour next door - namely China - which invests heavily in North Korea and like any capitalist power does not do so out of the goodness of its own heart

North Korea is a grim shitty little capitalist hellhole run by a despotic narcissistic parasite elite that couldnt care a toss about the plight of its own wage slaves. The photo provided by Explosive Situation captures this better than words ever can

[CommunityBeliever]

So what are your thoughts about N-Korea? And don't tell me it is all terible and stuff, but ground your arguments with sources, please. And if anyone of you has ever been to N-Korea, please tell us about it.

Thank you for the inquiry comrade student. The CPGB-ML sent a delegation to the DPRK and reported a positive outlook on Korean socialism. Well the Juche ideology is anti-Marxist, we should still support the achievements of Korean socialism against Western imperialism.

The slanders that state that the DPRK is a "shit hole" are ludicrous. Go to third world capitalist countries in Africa, South America, the middle east, or south Asia, to see a real shit hole. The DPRK is far better off then similar third world countries.

http://www.cpgb-ml.org/index.php?secName=proletarian&subName=display&art=243

Eye witness to socialism: report from Korea

Free medical care, free housing, full employment, free education and safety for your children. These things are desired by all working people – and they are being achieved for people in north Korea in spite of US aggression and economic sanctions.

Despite the further stepping up of sanctions at the time of writing, the achievements listed above, unattainable for ordinary people in even the richest imperialist nations, were clear to the CPGB-ML’s delegation during its recent visit to the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK).

Our party’s delegation was privileged to spend a week in the DPRK at the invitation of the Workers’ Party of Korea (WPK) in the early part of September this year. In a short time we were able to have very valuable discussions with our hosts (as reported in the last issue of Proletarian), and we were also able to visit many places in Pyongyang and outside it that gave us a huge amount of information about the country’s cultural, educational and historical development since the US-led aggression against the north was defeated in 1953.

From the very outset, we were impressed by the beauty of north Korea and the fact that this beauty is allowed to flourish because Korea is a socialist country. Indeed, part of that beauty comes from the obvious unity and determination of a people in the process of building socialism.

Driving into Pyongyang from the airport, we were immediately struck by the clean air, lack of billboards exhorting one to purchase the latest variation of Coca-Cola or washing powder, and a countryside tended and cared for, from roadside flowers to irrigated rice fields, by a population actively participating in the construction of a new society. In short, the difference in the quality of life for ordinary people between imperialist Britain and socialist Korea was immediately apparent.

Education and culture for all

Before the founding of the DPRK in 1948, Pyongyang had only three secondary schools, a few primary schools and no university – the vast majority of its population were illiterate. So one of the first tasks of the DPRK in 1949 was to set about implementing a system of universal free education. Although the outbreak of the Korean War caused by US aggression one year later temporarily suspended the achievement of this goal, by August 1956 free primary school education was effected and by April 1959 free education was also implemented in the secondary sector, including university education.

The priority given to education, and the scale of resources still put into that endeavour, were in clear evidence during our visit. The Grand People’s Study House and the recently-opened Kimchaek University of Technology are two examples of the extent that this society is developing access to a wide range of educational facilities for all it citizens. The majestic Study House, with a dramatic oriental roof (hip-saddle style), houses 30m books (we saw examples of scientific works, as well as literature from Shakespeare to Soviet novels, along with the works of Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il) and can seat 12,000 students in its 600 rooms and lecture theatres. In order to extend its services as widely as possible, it also lends books and provides lectures on site, on tape and on the national TV network, as well as providing students from across the country with study-while-working courses accessible through factories and in rural areas.

Kimchaek University specialises in computer technology, both in its courses and in its provision of e-library facilities, being accessible to students remotely connected to its network. Kim Sung Il (Chief of Libraries) emphasised the importance of reading original documents (we saw a student reading Darwin in English in one of the computer rooms) and of the need to be self-reliant in developing their own computer systems – for example, they have developed a Korean version of the open-source operating system Linux. These facilities certainly demonstrated how higher education is developing in order to keep Korean society advancing with scientific and computer technology.

Great importance is given to culture and education for the young people of Korea. Centres for after-school activities have always been important in socialist countries, and Korea is no exception. The Mangyongdae Children’s Palace, which can accommodate 5,000 children in hundreds of art, sports, science and computer activities, was so vast that it was only possible for us to see a few of the classes – calligraphy, embroidery, ballet, musical instrument lessons from piano and accordion to kayagum (traditional stringed instrument), Taekwon-do and swimming, were just a few of the regular classes in place.

The climax of this visit was a performance by the children in a fully-equipped theatre with exhilarating and high-quality performances by children of all ages and clearly enjoyed by the packed audience. As Harpal Brar, leader of our delegation, said to a radio journalist in an interview after seeing the display: “Only socialist society can show such a concern for the ability of our children. The performance showed children as the ‘pearls’ of our society and the future depends on them.”

[The Cheshire Cat]

I dunno why you think it has been closed since the 16th century.

I was watching a documentary this morning about N-Korea which stated that Korea was called 'the Hermite' or something because it had always been a very closed country, like China when it first came into contact with Europeans. China tried to protect their culture against Europeans and Koreans tried to protect theirs too, I guess. Or maybe it was to protect itself from Japan.


They gave up pretending to be communist and now just label it a military state. There is some capitalism there. It is a Stalinist dictatorship anyway.

Then why do they still use many communist symbols all across the country?

I did saw some things that seemed pretty capitalist, like some unnamed fake McDonalds, big theme parks which use an awfull amount of elictricity while the N-Koreans themselves barely have any and I've heard in the documentary that there are small businesses which barely have to do anything with the state are popping up in Pyong Yang.


Most apartments only have one light bulb. It really is that shit.

How can you know this for sure? Besides, it doesn't matter how many bulbs they have, since there is barely any electricity...

And why do you call it Stalinist (a.k.a Marxist-Leninism)? I don't think Lenin would agree with that, since N-Korea would not be Lenin's ideal country...

[daft punk]

Then why do they still use many communist symbols all across the country?
I dunno, maybe they never got round to taking them down.



And why do you call it Stalinist (a.k.a Marxist-Leninism)?
Because it is essentially Stalinist.



I don't think Lenin would agree with that, since N-Korea would not be Lenin's ideal country...

I thought I had explained that elsewhere? Marxism-Leninism is neither Marxist nor Leninist. Stalinism is anti-Marxist, anti-Leninist, anti-socialist, anti-communist. It is the dictatorship of an elite over a planned economy. Plus, most of Stalin's rule was spent trying to smash revolutions and make sure various countries ended up capitalist.

[The Cheshire Cat]

@CommunityBeliever

Thank you for the link. I agree with you that the N-Korea is better of than any third world country and I believe that, from what I've seen, standard of living in certain area's of Pyongyang are higher than some places in America (i.e the Bronx). The biggest difference is that people in the Bronx have more freedom, since they do not have to worship leaders (except for God, maybe). On the other side, people in the Bronx also have the freedom to be poor, and to be shot in some gang rivalty and stuff.

About the Communist Party of GB, on their site I saw they support China, which is, at least in my eyes, not exactly communist since they enslave and sell their people to foreign companies for a few millions from some foreign investors.

So I'm not sure how much I can trust them. When I read the article, I get the idea they are idealising N-Korea. Also, why would N-Korea give their people free education? It does not seem to be in the interest of the N-Korea government, since the people may start to realise that they do not need their leaders, which could start a real communist revolution.

N-Korea seems to be concealed by a thick mist of information and non-information and lots of contradictions. It makes it really hard to get an idea about N-Korea:(

[The Cheshire Cat]

I thought I had explained that elsewhere? Marxism-Leninism is neither Marxist nor Leninist. Stalinism is anti-Marxist, anti-Leninist, anti-socialist, anti-communist. It is the dictatorship of an elite over a planned economy. Plus, most of Stalin's rule was spent trying to smash revolutions and make sure various countries ended up capitalist.

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you then. I thought you meant that Stalin in his younger years interpreted Lenin's idea's wrongfully and that he started to change them in his later years, like his idea of socialism in one country.

[Os Cangaceiros]

@CommunityBeliever

Thank you for the link. I agree with you that the N-Korea is better of than any third world country and I believe that, from what I've seen, standard of living in certain area's of Pyongyang are higher than some places in America (i.e the Bronx). The biggest difference is that people in the Bronx have more freedom, since they do not have to worship leaders (except for God, maybe). On the other side, people in the Bronx also have the freedom to be poor, and to be shot in some gang rivalty and stuff.

Is the Bronx portrayed as some kind of hell-hole in the Netherlands? :lol: It's not a very dangerous area at all (nor is NYC generally speaking), there is no way that standards of living in Pyongyang are higher than in the Bronx.

[Yugo45]

One of the few journalists that got into North Korea:
http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3

Thought it was interesting.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Is the Bronx portrayed as some kind of hell-hole in the Netherlands? :lol: It's not a very dangerous area at all (nor is NYC generally speaking), there is no way that standards of living in Pyongyang are higher than in the Bronx.

Yeah, it kinda is, at least in my surroundings. I know someone who lived a couple of years in the US and he said you get shot quite easily in the Bronx for just insulting someone. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my naivety:)

In 2010 in the US alone, 14,748 people were shot en 84,767 were raped though. I doubt N-Korea is close to those numbers, even if they were as many people in N-Korea as in the US. (source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm)

[The Cheshire Cat]

One of the few journalists that got into North Korea:
http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3

Thought it was interesting.

Thank you for the link.

[daft punk]

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood you then. I thought you meant that Stalin in his younger years interpreted Lenin's idea's wrongfully and that he started to change them in his later years, like his idea of socialism in one country.

did you read the article on the aftermath of the second world war I gave you?

http://www.marxists.org/subject/stalinism/origins-future/ch2-1.htm

also, if you havent read it, read this

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1927/opposition/index.htm

Stalin evolved into an anti-socialist over several years.

Also google this

Third period.

This was 1928-34 when events forced him to make a sharp turn to a pseudo ultraleft position, at exactly the worst possible time in history (it led to the Nazis in power).

Socialism in One country was invented by Bukharin and Stalin adopted it in 1924.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah, it kinda is, at least in my surroundings. I know someone who lived a couple of years in the US and he said you get shot quite easily in the Bronx for just insulting someone. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my naivety:)

In 2010 in the US alone, 14,748 people were shot en 84,767 were raped though. I doubt N-Korea is close to those numbers, even if they were as many people in N-Korea as in the US. (source: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm)

Areas in the Bronx during the 70's and 80's definitely could've qualified as "ghettos", but in decades since a lot of the former "bad neighborhoods" in NYC have been taken over by gentrification. (New York is where my family is originally from). You're chances of getting shot in NYC by a random stranger are extremely extremely low.

[CommunityBeliever]

About the Communist Party of GB, on their site I saw they support China, which is, at least in my eyes, not exactly communist since they enslave and sell their people to foreign companies for a few millions from some foreign investors.The principal enemy of communists is NATO, as it has been in for decades. Now some of the NATO imperialists are intensifying their anti-China campaign. In this context what is unreasonable about giving China some level of support against the imperialist forces? The purpose of the CPGB-ML's hands of China (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fhandsoffchina.org%2F&ei=H4M_T-ndFYLZiALa6f2MAQ&usg=AFQjCNHKBsdW9NQUADIDut0vL9yybQdO1g&sig2=fDs1_KZtcUX0Yqmtgub6iw) campaign is to defend China from attacks, not to pretend that it is a communist utopia.

I agree with that China isn't socialist, neither is Vietnam; nonetheless, the CPGB-ML supports China, Vietnam, Laos, the DPRK, and Cuba to some extent.


Also, why would N-Korea give their people free education? It does not seem to be in the interest of the N-Korea government, since the people may start to realise that they do not need their leaders, which could start a real communist revolution.Revolutions are caused by material conditions and education is just one factor in the revolutionary process, so your statement here is based upon a flawed premise.


I thought I had explained that elsewhere? Marxism-Leninism is neither Marxist nor Leninist. Stalinism is anti-Marxist, anti-Leninist, anti-socialist, anti-communist. It is the dictatorship of an elite over a planned economy. Plus, most of Stalin's rule was spent trying to smash revolutions and make sure various countries ended up capitalist.

From my own studies I have concluded that most of the faults of the USSR at the time were due to people other then Stalin himself. Lysenko, Khrushchev, and trotskyist saboteurs caused considerable problems for the USSR, but what problems can you really find that Stalin himself is responsible for? What revolutions did Stalin personally suppress, and how can one man even suppress a revolution?

[robbo203]

Thank you for the inquiry comrade student. The CPGB-ML sent a delegation to the DPRK and reported a positive outlook on Korean socialism. Well the Juche ideology is anti-Marxist, we should still support the achievements of Korean socialism against Western imperialism.

The slanders that state that the DPRK is a "shit hole" are ludicrous. Go to third world capitalist countries in Africa, South America, the middle east, or south Asia, to see a real shit hole. The DPRK is far better off then similar third world countries.

http://www.cpgb-ml.org/index.php?secName=proletarian&subName=display&art=243


North Korea is a lilttle capitalist shit hole ; stop apologising for this disgusting regime. The regime itself brazenly boasts it has the lowest labour costs in Asia and the lowest taxes in Asia and how hunky dory it will all be for your good ol' venture capitalist to cooperate with the regime in some joint venture project or other

http://www.korea-dpr.com/business.htm

There is no such thing as a free lunch in capitalism as any Marxist economist will tell you and the so called freebies you mention like free health care - such as it is! - has to be paid for by other means which invariably means a reduction in wages. Yeah, little wonder that North Korea has the lowest wages in Asia!

The CPGB-ML sounds to me like a bunch of useful idiots whose gullibility in this matter is only exceeded by their complete inability to grasp what is actually meant by a socialist system. Anyone who thinks North Korea has anything remotely do to with socialism is seriously way off beam.

Oh and while you say Well the Juche ideology is anti-Marxist, we should still support the achievements of Korean socialism against Western imperialism. I note you have nothing to say about the cosy relationship it evinces towards the imperialism of Chinese state capitalist regime

[CommunityBeliever]

I note you have nothing to say about the cosy relationship it evinces towards the imperialism of Chinese state capitalist regime The post-Soviet world is unipolar and dominated the Western imperialists. The Chinese state capitalist regime isn't deserving of the adjective "imperialist" because they are not a part of this Western imperialist force. Nonetheless, could you further elaborate this "cosy relationship" you were referring to?


North Korea is a lilttle capitalist shit hole ; stop apologising for this disgusting regime.Your description of the DPRK as a "shit hole" and as "disgusting" is based upon your own subjective preferences. Marxist economists analyse conditions in a disinterested and scientific manner rather then using ludicrous slanders and slur words.

[robbo203]

The post-Soviet world is unipolar and dominated the Western imperialists. The Chinese state capitalist regime isn't deserving of the adjective "imperialist" because they are not a part of this Western imperialist force. Nonetheless, could you further elaborate this "cosy relationship" you were referring to?

Obviously, Chinese state capitalism is not part of the "western imperialist force" but you are surely not suggesting - are you? - that there is something about imperialism that makes it the sole preserve of certain western powers. Actually imperialism is not simply a militaristic phenomenom and derives from the self expanding dynamic of capital itself. It follows from this that insofar as every country in the world is capitalist , every country is either latently or manifestly imperialist. China's imperialistic relation vis-a-vis the North Korean capitalist dictorship is evidenced by its extensive investment in North Korea - by far the biggest source of external capital. From memory there was an article I referered to some time ago which made the point that 70% of the infrasructure is financed by Chinese capital




Your description of the DPRK as a "shit hole" and as "disgusting" is based upon your own subjective preferences. Marxist economists analyse conditions in a disinterested and scientific manner rather then using ludicrous slanders and slur words.

Sure Im not going to be mealy mouthed about voicing my disgust and contempt for this viciously anti=working class regime - or my dismay at gullible individuals such as yourself who rush to its defence. I can play the role of disappasionate Marxist economist where appropriate but even old Charlie gave vent to feelings of disgust now and then. A Marxist economist incidnetally would be absolutely unequivocal about labelling the North Korean regime state capitalist

[Ostrinski]

North Korea is a shithole.

[Grenzer]

What is it with the Maoists and North Korea?

North Korea is a capitalist shit hole. Admittedly, a lot of their economic woes are caused by the economic sanctions, but that doesn't really make it any less of a failure. I don't buy into the "revisionism" thing. It's either capitalist, or it isn't. North Korea utilizes the capitalist mode of production, and has bourgeoisie.

Also, the statement that China isn't imperialist is sheer idiocy. China has been exploiting other "third world" countries for some time now, but I guess it only counts as imperialism if the perpetrator is part of "The West." In addition, they've been bullying their neighbors in a competition to secure access to certain resources. They've been using their military, economic, and political clout to intimidate others into getting what they want. China is a vigorous participant in neo-colonialism. You'd have to be willfully blind not to realize that, but I suppose it doesn't matter to Stalinists. As long as a country uses the prefix of "People's" and pseudo-Marxist sloganeering, then it seems to be ok.

[CommunityBeliever]

Obviously, Chinese state capitalism is not part of the "western imperialist force" but you are surely not suggesting - are you?Extant world conditions can be characterised in terms of the contradiction between the Western imperialists and the third world. Countries outside of this Western imperialists force are necessarily imperialist in a very different sense.


Sure Im not going to be mealy mouthed about voicing my disgust and contempt for this viciously anti=working class regime - or my dismay at gullible individuals such as yourself who rush to its defence.I am not "rushing to its defence" I will accept any legitimate criticism of the DPRK, for example, I previously criticized them for adopting the anti-Marxist Juche ideology. However, the OP requested a positive outlook on the DPRK that is not based upon "the usual capaganda." The report from the CPGB-ML describes such a different outlook. The opinions of the CPGB-ML aren't necessarily my own.


A Marxist economist incidnetally would be absolutely unequivocal about labelling the North Korean regime state capitalist Marx never used the term "state capitalist." That term only came into use years after Marx's death. The DPRK isn't capitalist in the familiar sense or early communist as defined by Marx, so state capitalism seems like an acceptable description.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

North Korea is a shithole.

In five words you said.

In five words I say.

Biggest economic sanction in history.

Cold mountainous country no food.

People starve cold no food.

Rocky soil plus 2-4.

Personalit cult to keep stable.

Nukes to not get attacked.

See how annoying one sentence?

[robbo203]

Extant world conditions can be characterised in terms of the contradiction between the Western imperialists and the third world. Countries outside of this Western imperialists force are necessarily imperialist in a very different sense.

That you consider prevailing conditions in terms of a "contradiction" between one bloc of countries and another - as opposed to how a Marxist would see it as a contradiction between one class and another - is, I think significant. This highlights inadvertently the reactionary nature of much so called "anti-imperialism" which diverts attention and effort away from the class struggle to the cause of various thirld world bourgeois elites whose cause is effectively merged with those workers and peasants in an abstract entity called the "nation". Anyone who evinces nationalism - and "anti-imperialism" very often conceals a form of nationalism - in my view stands oiutside and opposed to the socialist movement.




Marx never used the term "state capitalist." That term only came into use years after Marx's death. The DPRK isn't capitalist in the familiar sense or early communist as defined by Marx, so state capitalism seems like an acceptable description.

Absolute rubbish. The actual term "state capitalism" originated later (with Liebnicht I believe) but a marxian analysis which fundamentally identifies capitalism with generalised wage labour would certainly conclude North Korea was a capitalist state

Here incidentally is what Engels has to say on the matter:

The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine, the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of the productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage workers - proletarians. The capitalist relationship is not done away with. It is rather brought to a head. Socialism Utopian and Scientific

[foda]

North Korea is a piece of shit military state that should not be taken seriously.