Greed is Good

[Capitalism]

Greed makes society run. Greed has built civilization.

For profit businesses and industries create products... the competition between these businesses and industries sparks innovation to achieve a better product. The profit motive drives these businesses to constantly make better products for people to buy. By being greedy, and wanting to make more money in Capitalism, you are ultimately enhancing the lives of other people. Capitalism creates jobs and wealth!

Look at all our entrepreneurs today. Sorry, commies.

[hatzel]

Greed is good? Tell me something I don't know... (http://libcom.org/library/right-be-greedy-theses-practical-necessity-demanding-everything)


Greed in its fullest sense is the only possible basis of communist society.
Welcome to the party, pal :)

[Per Levy]

well, you're right, greed is good, the point is just that my greed can only be satisfied in a communist society, it cant be satisfied in the current system at all.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Greed does make capitalism run, but it doesn't follow that greed is good. Capitalist greed creates misery for billions of people.

[artanis17]

weQ7Tf9y0QE

[CommunityBeliever]

Capitalism creates jobs and wealth!

Capitalism creates unemployment and destroys wealth! Maintaining a large reserve army of labour is vital to the functioning of capitalism because the capitalists need unemployed to go to when the employed force does something that might threaten their profits. Furthermore, capitalism destroys wealth because in order to procure profits the capitalists need supply to match demand, so they use destructive practices like planned obsolescence and sometimes they even deliberately destroy wealth and throw things away.


For profit businesses and industries create products...

They create terrible products. When I got this computer I had to uninstall the crapware on it made by the for profit business Microsoft and install free software designed by armies of volunteers.


The profit motive drives these businesses to constantly make better products for people to buy.

The only thing that makes better products is the application of the scientific method. Communist society will be able to apply the scientific method to produce better products then capitalism ever has. Consider that, according to the distinguished sociologist Robert K. Morton good science is communist in nature because knowledge should be open to everyone:

http://www.pantaneto.co.uk/issue33/dressler.htm

Ethics provides us with the principles to discern the good from the bad. Good science, undisputedly, is science conducted according to the principles coined by the sociologist Robert K. Merton. That is universalism, communism, disinterestedness, and organized skepticism. Universalism means that the academic work and qualification of a person are assessed independently of individual characteristics such as race, religion, or social status. Universalism is opposed to particularism where the assessment of new findings is based on the reputation and past productivity of a researcher. Communism means that all findings are communicated openly so that the ownership of knowledge is shared by all. Communism is opposed to solitarism where scientists protect their findings to ensure priority in publishing, patenting, or application. Disinterestedness means that research is separated from personal motives and motivated only by curiosity and the altruistic aim for the common welfare of mankind. Disinterestedness is opposed to selfinterestedness where scientists compete for funding and recognition in their private interest. Organized skepticism finally means that scientists rely on a critical review. It is opposed to organized dogmatism where scientists just promote their own findings, theories, or innovations.


Look at all our entrepreneurs today. Sorry, commies.

What particular "entrepreneurs" do you want me to look at?

[robbo203]

Greed makes society run. Greed has built civilization.

For profit businesses and industries create products... the competition between these businesses and industries sparks innovation to achieve a better product. The profit motive drives these businesses to constantly make better products for people to buy. By being greedy, and wanting to make more money in Capitalism, you are ultimately enhancing the lives of other people. Capitalism creates jobs and wealth!

Look at all our entrepreneurs today. Sorry, commies.

You're wrong you know. Capitalism is not built on greed. It is built on selfless altruism of the vast majority who produce all the wealth, including all the new innovations you mention, and yet allow themselves to be systematically exploited by a tiny class of parasites whose share of the wealth bears absolutely no relation to whatever minsucule contribution they may have made. It is, more or less, purely a function of their ownership of the means of production which other people have built up

[roy]

It's so cute how you come here with your rhetoric about competition fuelling innovation, etc. etc. like it's some revelatory stuff we've never heard before, "Shit, I never thought of that before. I guess communism is stupid after all!"

Troll on.

[artanis17]

You are talking with Capitalism beware !

[NorwegianCommunist]

Greed does make capitalism run, but it doesn't follow that greed is good. Capitalist greed creates misery for billions of people.

That is true.
I personally don't like greed.
Greed is the root to all evil in my eyes. Seen it, experienced it, hated it

[RGacky3]

No one argues agaisnt capitalism based on the notion that "greed is not good," we argue against it because it does'nt work.

[Tim Cornelis]

The reality, however, is that monetary reward stifles innovation--this is a researched fact. There are three factors that lead to innovation: mastery (internal), purpose (internal), and autonomy (external). Under communism there is much more autonomy than now, and thus more innovation.

Sorry cappies.

[Thirsty Crow]

Greed makes society run. Greed has built civilization.

For profit businesses and industries create products... the competition between these businesses and industries sparks innovation to achieve a better product. The profit motive drives these businesses to constantly make better products for people to buy. By being greedy, and wanting to make more money in Capitalism, you are ultimately enhancing the lives of other people. Capitalism creates jobs and wealth!

Look at all our entrepreneurs today. Sorry, commies.
Silly me, I thought that people built civilization, but it was greed after all (and not the simple motive force of securing a stable food supply).

It's remarkable how in the midst of devastating crisis idiots appear out of the blue who have the irresistable urge to tell us that capitalists compete with each other, thereby enabling technological advance and opening jobs. No shit Sherlock, no shit.

It's just that we kinda don't want to depend on little shits exploiting us for their own profit.

http://www.toughbeans.com/assets/images/autogen/a_StupidDog.jpg

[Hiero]

Rape and pillage is good, at least back in Ancient times.

[Capitalism]

No one argues agaisnt capitalism based on the notion that "greed is not good," we argue against it because it does'nt work.


Capitalism is working right now. Far better than all your Communist Party shit holes have worked! Look at the United States... Free Market has built the nation! Look at North Korea... Socialism has destroyed the nation.

[PhoenixAsh]

Sockety sock sock. Bye bye puppet.

[Night Ripper]

Under communism there is much more autonomy than now, and thus more innovation.

Can you give an actual example or is this all in your head?

[Comrade Samuel]

You know what greed IS good...for about 1 out of every 10 people. Capitalism is the cancer of civilization and to not agree with that means

A) you clearly know nothing about communism

B) you are just one of the few who capitalism hasn't completely fucked over

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Whoa, flashback to Laveyan Satanism....:blink:

[Tim Cornelis]

Can you give an actual example or is this all in your head?

...You'd say you'd learn don't you? Remember that thread filled with advise on anarchist literature? Maybe a time now to actually read one of the proposed books, essays, etc.

Capitalism = you do as you are told (employer vs. employed)
Communism = you work autonomously in free arrangement

Additionally, under communism there is a high degree of integration of menial and mental labour and much more leisure time. So both outside and within the workplace there is more freedom and more space for self-exploration and self-realisation.

And what do you mean "an actual example" communism has never been tried yet.

[Krano]

1KSU-dk6Sgg

[Strannik]

Greed is good. Greed helps to create more capital. Once there's enough capital, abundance becomes possible. In abundance greed is obsolete.

[Rafiq]

- makes shit thread, posts shit topic

-watch as 15 posts come i ln shitting on his original post

-replies to 1 post by 1 user that doesn't represent the collective opposition to OP

-repeats cycle.

Behold, the never ending cycle of OI bastards.

[NorwegianCommunist]

If you look at USA you see some rich capitalists that are born with greed because of the society they grow up in and a bunch of poor people that don't have the chance to even try to make money because of capitalism.
Look at Korea, people that share, have 10 times better family's with real family values that are worth more then money and they don't care about money as much as Americans do.

American materialism makes me sick.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i also like assigning moralistic judgements to abstract notions

for example

love is bad
hate is mediocre
justice is happy
freedom is sad

[PhoenixAsh]

I am going to interject here an say that I banned capitalism. It was relatively easy. Things still function.

This is the argument that ends all arguments. Capitalism is no longer working here. This basically disproves all cappies...

Thank you for your attention. :thumbup1:

[MotherCossack]

well i am presuming that you are an atheist as well as a self-satisfied, smug.... well i do not know what sort of person you are, clearly.... but judging by this comment.... i would not much care to!


Either you are only doing this to provoke a reaction from us with more conviction than yourself.... if that is the case.... grow the fuck up and get a life.

Or you actually believe the comments you made to be true.... in whiuch case... i actually pity you.... crossed with a hefty dose of contempt.
to be so disengaged....so uninvolved with life.
i am glad that my world is not your world.
good luck with whatever it is you aspire to .... happiness, i am sure is not something you hold much store by....

[CommunityBeliever]

Capitalism is working right now. Far better than all your Communist Party shit holes have worked! That is a complete lie; essentially every "Communist Party shit" such as the USSR, PRC, Albania, DPRK, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, etc worked far better then corresponding capitalist countries.


Look at the United States... Free Market has built the nation! If you studied history at all you would know that imperialism built the nation. The imperialists went to Africa, South America, and other parts of the third world to get slaves to do the building. The imperialist exploitation of these places continues to this day, which allows Americans to consume far more then they produce.


Look at North Korea... Socialism has destroyed the nation. People in the DPRK are better off then people in similar third world countries because of socialist services like free education, health care, and full employment.

[Rafiq]

That is a complete lie; essentially every "Communist Party shit" such as the USSR, PRC, Albania, DPRK, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos, etc worked far better then corresponding capitalist countries.

Quite evidently, "capitalist countries" are still around(for now), and not, "Communist countries".


If you studied history at all you would know that imperialism built the nation. The imperialists went to Africa, South America, and other parts of the third world to get slaves to do the building. The imperialist exploitation of these places continues to this day, which allows Americans to consume far more then they produce.


This is, of course true. However, you cannot deny the fact that capitalism itself was capable of generating Living standards unseen in human history, even before Imperialism was of absolute necessity to keep the system functional.


People in the DPRK are better off then people in similar third world countries because of socialist services like free education, health care, and full employment.


People in the United States were far better off than people in the Soviet Union, though.

The way you addressed his bullshit claim was, in all due respect, mediocre. We should instead be pointing out (it's not hard to do) the degeneration of capitalism right now, instead of chasing unicorns from the past.

[CommunityBeliever]

Quite evidently, "capitalist countries" are still around(for now), and not, "Communist countries".

The USSR already was what the user Capitalism referred to as "communist party shit" which was already bad and then when capitalism was restored things got much worse. The capitalists in the former USSR started to partition off parts of the nations wealth and public property in order to further their own interests well contemporaneously super-exploiting the post-Soviet population.


However, you cannot deny the fact that capitalism itself was capable of generating Living standards unseen in human history, even before Imperialism was of absolute necessity to keep the system functional. Indeed. We Marxists recognize the historically progressive nature of capitalism relative to feudalism. The transition to this new mode of production eliminated the old era of stagnation ushering in a new era of economic growth.

Nonetheless, a historical analysis of world conditions demonstrates that the Western imperialist forces, predominately in Europe and later America, have been exploiting the rest of the world, predominately those nations of the global south. This process of exploitation by Western imperialism continues to this day. Recently the Western imperialists supported the racist rebel force in Libya which helped them to partition of the oil wealth of Libya to support their own interests, not unlike how the Russian bourgeoisie partitioned the wealth of the USSR off to support their own interests after the Soviet collapse.


People in the United States were far better off than people in the Soviet Union, though. I disagree with this statement. Even today, in the United States if you aren't a white heterosexual male you are open to a variety of forms of discrimination. Well the Soviet Union was still around people in the US hadn't yet had the civil rights movement so they had to suffer terrible conditions of oppression. On the other hand, the USSR provided free housing, education, health care, etc to all of its citizens. These are some benefits most of the poor people in the U.S still desire. I personally wouldn't mind being able to go to graduate school for free.


We should instead be pointing out (it's not hard to do) the degeneration of capitalism right now, instead of chasing unicorns from the past. I have several hundred posts and a few blog posts on this forum, many of them dealing with the degeneration of capitalism. I have strongly criticized capitalism for its use of planned obsolescence, artificial scarcity, and other destructive practices. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with defending "unicorns from the past." History is written by the victors, so should we just sit back as all the good things about the USSR are being forgotten? Shouldn't we value historical accuracy and not the account of the capitalist victors?

[robbo203]

I am going to interject here an say that I banned capitalism. It was relatively easy. Things still function.

This is the argument that ends all arguments. Capitalism is no longer working here. This basically disproves all cappies...

Thank you for your attention. :thumbup1:

Why? I think there is an unfortunate tendency among some Revleft moderators to all too easily play the "banning card". Of course the guy was talking arrant nonsense. So what? This is the OI forum is it not?

What is not often appreciated is the heuristic value of engaging in debates with people like "Capitalism". It enables you to organise your thoughts in response to provocative challenges and to think your way through to an effective answer.

What sort of message does it send out by just banning people on the spot? As they (and, no doubt, others) would see it, it just confirms their belief that you cannot handle their arguments

I would seriously rethink this whole banning strategy.

[Hexen]

Greed is a metaphorical cog within the capitalist system.

[Lanky Wanker]

Capitalism creates jobs and wealth!


Well done! You're a smart one. Here, have a sticker. I think we should just come to the conclusion that capitalism is amazing because it manages to create a certain number of jobs which still leaves a ridiculously large number of people dying in poverty while others thrive in unimaginable wealth without lifting a finger.

[Thirsty Crow]

Why? I think there is an unfortunate tendency among some Revleft moderators to all too easily play the "banning card". Of course the guy was talking arrant nonsense. So what? This is the OI forum is it not?

It was a sockpuppet. That is a bannable offense accprding to board rules.

[DinodudeEpic]

Greed is great!

But, you have to manipulate the greed to serve the needs of society in order to use it the right way.

Capitalism is against greed, because it makes all the workers placid, while socialism is the ambition of the workers for power.

Although, socialism (At least the kind I propose.) requires democratic sharing of power. So, it could just mean to be greedy on the market, and charitable for the business.

[trivas7]

well, you're right, greed is good, the point is just that my greed can only be satisfied in a communist society, it cant be satisfied in the current system at all.
Um, there is no communist society, buddy. Guess you're out of luck all around. :(

[trivas7]

I am going to interject here an say that I banned capitalism. It was relatively easy. Things still function.

This is the argument that ends all arguments. Capitalism is no longer working here. This basically disproves all cappies...

Thank you for your attention. :thumbup1:
That's not an argument, that's merely a bare statement, commie.

[#FF0000]

commie.


you have got to be fucking kidding me dude.

[Lanky Wanker]

you have got to be fucking kidding me dude.

From this I'll assume he was in fact trying to use it as a light insult...

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

Society will be free when it has the same, collective, will: that of fulfilling all individual will to the greatest extent. -Debord
Or something like that. I get to make up quotes because I'm a situ. Though I have to say debord because i think vaneigem is still alive. Must be 80 by now.

Yeah, individual will is more what you're getting at than greed.

[Partizanac]

I'm not sure if you're serious or not.
I've seen this alot more in various syndicalist and such groupings and some people seem to take it to heart.

Do some of you seriously claim you are communists/socialists/What ever because you are greedy and it's the way for you to get more?

[Lanky Wanker]

Do some of you seriously claim you are communists/socialists/What ever because you are greedy and it's the way for you to get more?

If by 'more' you mean having access to good work, healthcare, education, food, housing, democracy, equality and freedom; yes.

[Partizanac]

Yeah but the reason should not be personal greed.
Some people are officially suggesting that their motive is selfish and greedy; not altruistic.

You do not want people like this in a future society. For they will go beyond that limit which you mentioned.

You should actually wish for others to have it better. If everyone wished that for each other then it could work. Anything else requires some huge state controlling everyones "greed".

[Lanky Wanker]

Yeah but the reason should not be personal greed.
Some people are officially suggesting that their motive is selfish and greedy; not altruistic.

You do not want people like this in a future society. For they will go beyond that limit which you mentioned.

You should actually wish for others to have it better. If everyone wished that for each other then it could work. Anything else requires some huge state controlling everyones "greed".

Well if you mean on an individual level then no. If someone wants communism for personal gain and no one else's benefit, they're probably lazy, irresponsible people who live off their parents by choice. Someone whose communist views were set off by a low(er) standard of living is more than likely to have feelings for others in their situation.

[Partizanac]

Agreed.
Just saying that I have had impressions from various circles in which they in a perverse way uphold the concept of greed and call themselves socialists because they are greedy.

Hell even I have used that argumentative technique against some thick-headed neo-liberals but this goes beyond that.

[Revolution starts with U]

Yeah but the reason should not be personal greed.
Some people are officially suggesting that their motive is selfish and greedy; not altruistic.

You do not want people like this in a future society. For they will go beyond that limit which you mentioned.

You should actually wish for others to have it better. If everyone wished that for each other then it could work. Anything else requires some huge state controlling everyones "greed".


Agreed.
Just saying that I have had impressions from various circles in which they in a perverse way uphold the concept of greed and call themselves socialists because they are greedy.

Hell even I have used that argumentative technique against some thick-headed neo-liberals but this goes beyond that.

People are self interested, period. We can wax poetically all day about how people should be. But if a system relies on how people should be, rather than how they are, it is doomed to failure.

[Partizanac]

Bull shit.
There are different people.

If it's doomed to fail then stop arguing for communism for communism will never work if people are selfish. Individuals with brains and balls will try to take advantage of the system and they will beat those without brains and balls.

But I believe the majority isn't selfish.

[Revolution starts with U]

Why wont it work? Most people cannot be elite by definition. It is in the majorities self interest to collectivize against elitism's.

[Partizanac]

This is the concept not of communism but of violent mutualists seeking constant equilibrium. It's not a society I want.

Why are you a communist if you believe people are selfish?
Do you consider yourself weak and dumb? If not why not rule and enslave the selfish masses? Who are you to care about their rights if they do not care about yours, etc.

Clearly not a good foundation to base a working co-operating society on.

[#FF0000]

If not why not rule and enslave the selfish masses?

"enslave selfish people because you are not selfish"

lol

[Partizanac]

*facepalm*


edit: Since you didn't get the previous line you won't get mine current neither you mindless thug (I've read your posts and how you mock and bully people who don't agree with everything you stand for).

I do not believe people are selfish.
I am saying that if you are selfish and intelligent and believe the masses are selfish and dumb you should enslave the masses. There is no reason not to.

[#FF0000]

i am just giving you a hard time

anyway i dont think anyone here thinks "PEOPLE ARE SELFISH" -- they're just sort of showing how that isn't necessarily a problem.

people aren't inherently anything -- selfish or altruistic. I'm also not so sure the line between selfish and altruistic action is so clear.

[Partizanac]

Why give me a hard time? I've got the entire forum against me. Give me an easy time and I'll be even more polite.

[#FF0000]

that's just my m.o. dogg.

[Ostrinski]

You can only have altruistic tendencies after your own belly is filled. Communism is only realized through the proletariat's execution of their class interests (which is the seizure of industry). Class interest is defined by the comparison between the quality of life under one mode of production and another. Class consciousness is defined by the acknowledgement of one's own class interest.

If communism is not something realized through class upheaval from the foundation that it serves this class's interest, then communism ceases to be a historic necessity, it ceases to address the contradictions of capitalism, and ceases to be something practical or reachable. It then becomes some abstract image molded by the imagination of an individual with no relationship to reality, a mere utopian dream.

[#FF0000]

You can only have altruistic tendencies after your own belly is filled.

I don't think this is true. Yeah yeah hierarchy of need but this doesn't hold true in my experiences.

[Partizanac]

It won't work. Especially not today. The lines between classes have been blurred to the point of non-recognition. Everyones a capitalist today. Everyone own stocks or funds.
Self-employment has sky-rocketed. Concepts such as consultancy have replaced classical wage-labor. Sure. These are ways to split and disintegrate the unity of the old working class but they have worked.

You are not only at the risk of disintegration due to your divide but marginalization.
The correct path is to espouse peoples sense of dignity and right. Facts and figures work wonders to. "Your meager stock ownership does not give you any influence or any degree of financial security compared to theirs".

Etc. An evolution of concept is needed.

[#FF0000]

It won't work. Especially not today. The lines between classes have been blurred to the point of non-recognition.

You say this as the gulf between the bosses and the workers is greater than anytime in the past 50 years.


Everyones a capitalist today. Everyone own stocks or funds.

That doesn't necessarily make one a capitalist anymore than having money in a bank does.


Self-employment has sky-rocketed

No it hasn't. Self-employment has been dropping like a stone in more developed countries. In the U.S. especially. The only places where self-employment is high are countries considered to be part of the "third world".


Concepts such as consultancy have replaced classical wage-labor

What?


The correct path is to espouse peoples sense of dignity and right. Facts and figures work wonders to. "Your meager stock ownership does not give you any influence or any degree of financial security compared to theirs".

This is the correct path as opposed to what?

[Partizanac]

A consultant is someone hired for a project and payed for the completion of the project and not necessarily as a wage laborer. These forms of work have intensified greatly.

I don't know the situation in the US but in Europe i don't think it's like this.
While concentration of wealth is on the growth many fired workers and students have started businesses in alternative fields like installation, painting, web-design, small scale farming, news posting, creative internet work etc. But I dont know the figures for sure so I won't say you're wrong.


As opposed to class warfare.

[Revolution starts with U]

This is the concept not of communism but of violent mutualists seeking constant equilibrium. It's not a society I want.

Why are you a communist if you believe people are selfish?
Do you consider yourself weak and dumb? If not why not rule and enslave the selfish masses? Who are you to care about their rights if they do not care about yours, etc.

Clearly not a good foundation to base a working co-operating society on.


*facepalm*


edit: Since you didn't get the previous line you won't get mine current neither you mindless thug (I've read your posts and how you mock and bully people who don't agree with everything you stand for).

I do not believe people are selfish.
I am saying that if you are selfish and intelligent and believe the masses are selfish and dumb you should enslave the masses. There is no reason not to.

Ya... isn't that what people have been doing for 6 thousand years now?

Its not that all people are selfish all the time. Its that all people are selfish some of the time. Knowing that it is in the elites interest to exploit the masses, it is in the masses interest to unite against elitism's.

You're just having a knee jerk reaction to the word selfishness. But I ask you this; if I save a little girls life merely because I want people to call me a hero, is there anything wrong with that?

[#FF0000]

A consultant is someone hired for a project and payed for the completion of the project and not necessarily as a wage laborer. These forms of work have intensified greatly.

I don't really understand why people say this sort of thing is so common nowadays. Like I said, the figures for self-employment are literally no different than they were before.

But what I know has skyrocketed is temporary work, either through temp agencies or through traditionally temporary jobs in retail or service jobs.


I don't know the situation in the US but in Europe i don't think it's like this.
While concentration of wealth is on the growth many fired workers and students have started businesses in alternative fields like installation, painting, web-design, small scale farming, news posting, creative internet work etc. But I dont know the figures for sure so I won't say you're wrong.


I don't know. Maybe you're just hella upper-middle class but I haven't seen this to be honest. I can think of only one person I know who has started a small business in the last 10 years. Everyone else still works for a wage.


As opposed to class warfare.

I disagree. I think you can use appeals to these 'lofty and noble ideals' like 'human dignity' but it'll just fall flat if it's not accompanied with a real-world material perspective as to how it's hurting working people and why workers need to look out for other workers globally.

[Revolution starts with U]

I don't own any stock.

[Partizanac]

Just some links:
http://www.efbww.org/default.asp?Issue=Self-employment%20and%20Bogus%20Self-employment&Language=EN
http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/areas/industrialrelations/dictionary/definitions/selfemployedperson.htm

First one is interesting. Talks about the blurring and the bogus "self-employment" that still creates depedency.