Practicalities of Legalising Drugs

[Quail]

I don't want to have a discussion about whether legalising drugs is a good or bad idea, so please don't post about why you think drugs are bad. I was just wondering how other people think that legalisation could practically work.

Most substances could be sold in head shops, supermarkets, cafes or bars/clubs without too much of an issue. For example, I don't see an issue with people buying mdma in clubs, or cannabis from a newsagent. Psychedelics could be sold in head shops, and it wouldn't be taboo to advise people how to use them responsibly and have a good trip. However, the idea of selling stuff like heroin or crack seems to pose a few more questions.

Leaving the distribution/transportation of dangerous and addictive drugs to unregulated, underground gangs is clearly a bad idea. Let's just use heroin for an example. People who sell heroin to addicts are in a position of power over that person, which leaves the addict vulnerable to exploitation (for sex maybe). However, this is a capitalist society, so if heroin were completely legal to sell, it would hand over that power to large companies such as supermarket or pharmacy chains. Obviously they wouldn't be able to exploit heroin addicts for sex, but they would be the ones selling and profiting from an addictive substance that has the potential to wreck the life of a vulnerable person (I suppose much like alcohol now). Having shops selling heroin would protect users in that the heroin would be purer and there would be a limit on the exploitative relationship between the user and the supplier. I still wouldn't really feel comfortable with the idea of someone standing to make a load of profit from drug addicts. Now, if heroin were legal but there were restrictions on obtaining it, there would still be a huge potential for black market sales (much like, say, valium), so that wouldn't really solve anything. I don't think that legalising heroin would cause people to suddenly go out and get addicted to it. I'm more concerned with the idea of people still making a profit out of people who are already addicted.

I think the key to dealing with addiction is in the quality of mental health care and education available. People should be encouraged (and have the option) to seek help rather than use substance abuse to deal with their problems. Maybe young people in schools should be taught a lot more about staying mentally healthy, and dealing with stress, upset and dark emotions (I for one would have benefited from something like that).

Of course, capitalism causes widespread stress and misery for a lot of people. It's no wonder people use drugs to escape. But although legalising drugs won't stop people abusing them, I think it would be generally good because prohibition is such a miserable failure. However, in a capitalist society, I think there are ways in which it could be problematic, and I just wanted to discuss the practicalities.

So, what are your thoughts?

[gorillafuck]

Leaving the distribution/transportation of dangerous and addictive drugs to unregulated, underground gangs is clearly a bad idea. Let's just use heroin for an example. People who sell heroin to addicts are in a position of power over that person, which leaves the addict vulnerable to exploitation (for sex maybe).Heroin dealers are businessmen, they're out for money. I doubt that a large percentage of them sexually abuse the people they sell to.


However, this is a capitalist society, so if heroin were completely legal to sell, it would hand over that power to large companies such as supermarket or pharmacy chains. Obviously they wouldn't be able to exploit heroin addicts for sex, but they would be the ones selling and profiting from an addictive substance that has the potential to wreck the life of a vulnerable person (I suppose much like alcohol now). Having shops selling heroin would protect users in that the heroin would be purer and there would be a limit on the exploitative relationship between the user and the supplier. I still wouldn't really feel comfortable with the idea of someone standing to make a load of profit from drug addicts. Now, if heroin were legal but there were restrictions on obtaining it, there would still be a huge potential for black market sales (much like, say, valium), so that wouldn't really solve anything. I don't think that legalising heroin would cause people to suddenly go out and get addicted to it. I'm more concerned with the idea of people still making a profit out of people who are already addicted.people already make a lot of profit from drug addicts. making it legal would not cause more profit to be extracted from drug addicts. have you ever heard of Rick Ross (not the rapper)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ross_(drug_trafficker)


I think the key to dealing with addiction is in the quality of mental health care and education available. People should be encouraged (and have the option) to seek help rather than use substance abuse to deal with their problems. Maybe young people in schools should be taught a lot more about staying mentally healthy, and dealing with stress, upset and dark emotions (I for one would have benefited from something like that).agreed.

[Marvin the Marxian]

I think a lot of gang violence and other crime would go away if drugs were legalized. People who are currently afraid to go to the police, because they currently possess drugs, wouldn't be as afraid anymore. Also the price of drugs would go down because there'd be less risk in selling them to people.

One of the biggest barriers to drug legalization in my opinion is the police. They've grown fat and happy with all the money and toys they've received in order to pursue non-violent drug offenders. I doubt they ever want that gravy train to come to an end.

[Quail]

Heroin dealers are businessmen, they're out for money. I doubt that a large percentage of them sexually abuse the people they sell to.

I suppose it depends on the dealer, but it does happen (just from anecdotes I've heard although sure you could find a source to verify).


people already make a lot of profit from drug addicts. making it legal would not cause more profit to be extracted from drug addicts. have you ever heard of Rick Ross (not the rapper)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ross_(drug_trafficker) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricky_Ross_%28drug_trafficker%29)

I'm not saying that more profit would be extracted from the addict, but it seems unethical to know that the same people will be going into the shop every day to spend their money there because they're addicted to the products being sold. Granted, it isn't that much different from alcohol or tobacco sales, but it just doesn't seem quite right that the profit from the newly legalised substances would go into the pockets of owners of big companies instead of the pockets of underground "businessmen." Unless a large percentage of the profit (or all of the profit) was fed into education/mental health services, where it could be used in a constructive way, there would still be people profiting from what is essentially a mental health problem.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

I think the key to dealing with addiction is in the quality of mental health care and education available. People should be encouraged (and have the option) to seek help rather than use substance abuse to deal with their problems. Maybe young people in schools should be taught a lot more about staying mentally healthy, and dealing with stress, upset and dark emotions (I for one would have benefited from something like that).

If schools would just stop fucking people up so much I think it would be enough, a la the poverty of student life (http://library.nothingness.org/articles/SI/en/display/4). That sort of education would definitely be good tho, google says 1 in 5 american's have some sort of mental illness. Just learning how bipolar disorder, depression, etc., work and making the meds for them over the counter would do a shit load. I know some crazy people who are obviously OCD or something but too broke to see a psychiatrist to get a script. UK and Canada style health care would be ideal.

Also, using currently illegal drugs for mental illness isn't necessarily bad. There was a lot of research going on to find medical uses for boomers before they were illegalized. And I swear on the manifesto that HBWR helped SWIM through some depression.

Heroin might be seriously problematic. I think the mentally ill crowd will still pick booze over it 99% of the time, but a lot of normal people would use it just every once in a while, which isn't particularly dangerous, and get addicted to it on accident. I think natural selection would happen pretty fast with cocaine. Everything doesn't have to be legalized all at once. legalize everything but meth, coke, pcp, and opiates, and then most of the meth, coke, pcp, and opiate users would switch over to ketamine or massive amounts of weed (my cat has been doing this for several years with no ill effects) or whatever.

[gorillafuck]

I suppose it depends on the dealer, but it does happen (just from anecdotes I've heard although sure you could find a source to verify).I'm sure it happens but I doubt it is a widespread phenomena. and when it does, I doubt that the abusers are the ones actually making all the money. drug lords are professional as fuck.


I'm not saying that more profit would be extracted from the addict, but it seems unethical to know that the same people will be going into the shop every day to spend their money there because they're addicted to the products being sold. Granted, it isn't that much different from alcohol or tobacco sales, but it just doesn't seem quite right that the profit from the newly legalised substances would go into the pockets of owners of big companies instead of the pockets of underground "businessmen."same amount of money would be made probably, and internationally, I'm guessing there would be the same people harvesting. all I can imagine changing as a result is an end to the imperialist war on drugs and a reduction in the violence of the drug trade.

I forget the name but in the late 1980's there was a cocaine drug lord who was the 7th richest person on Earth. the drug trade is big business.


Unless a large percentage of the profit (or all of the profit) was fed into education/mental health services, where it could be used in a constructive way, there would still be people profiting from what is essentially a mental health problem.there's no way that would happen, sadly.

[Quail]

Also, using currently illegal drugs for mental illness isn't necessarily bad. There was a lot of research going on to find medical uses for boomers before they were illegalized. And I swear on the manifesto that HBWR helped SWIM through some depression.
This is a good point. I watched a documentary that mentioned the possibility of using mdma in therapy to help people to open up. I think (from anecdotal evidence) that pyschedelics can also be useful for certain problems.

It is possible to use stuff like heroin or cocaine without becoming an addict. It generally comes down to how people use stuff I think. If you're using a drug (or sex, or anything that makes you feel good) as a way to take away your feelings, you're not using it in a healthy way. Most people I know who have used drugs have done so every so often for pleasure, which doesn't seem to be doing an awful lot of harm.

[Marvin the Marxian]

Agree Quail. Drugs make very poor therapists. Sadly all too many people are afraid to face their problems, which is what therapy would make them do.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think (from anecdotal evidence) that pyschedelics can also be useful for certain problems.

http://healthland.time.com/2011/06/16/magic-mushrooms-can-improve-psychological-health-long-term/

[Princess Luna]

This is a good point. I watched a documentary that mentioned the possibility of using mdma in therapy to help people to open up. I think (from anecdotal evidence) that pyschedelics can also be useful for certain problems.

It is possible to use stuff like heroin or cocaine without becoming an addict. It generally comes down to how people use stuff I think. If you're using a drug (or sex, or anything that makes you feel good) as a way to take away your feelings, you're not using it in a healthy way. Most people I know who have used drugs have done so every so often for pleasure, which doesn't seem to be doing an awful lot of harm.
In the 1980's Harvard was doing research with treating PTSD with MDMA and had extremely positive results. Then MDMA was made illegal, Harvard asked the DEA for permission to continue it's research but were rejected.

[danyboy27]

If drug was to be legalized, there would certainly be less violent crime linked to it, but the exploitation of the small time drug dealers and other employee of the criminal organisations would basically remain intact.

[blake 3:17]

For marijuana, many of us favour a decriminalization approach. There are already effective and responsible dealers. Just get the gangs, guns and jails out of it. There are many ethical pot dealers. Not sure that this would work everywhere.

I've seen some interesting proposals around legalization of other recreational drugs like MDMA or cocaine. One model that was proposed by a Canadian harm reduction advocate was to have drugs sold in regulated ways, possibly in pharmacies or pharmacy like situations. People would be allowed to buy a certain amount realistic for personal/social consumption and wasted people and kids wouldn't be allowed. People would know what they were getting, and the violence and haphazardness would be out of the situation.

One of the better groups on the issue is Law Enforcement Against Prohibition: http://www.leap.cc/

[Kotze]

Two half-baked ideas I don't have a final opinion on:

Driving license for drugs: People should have some knowledge about positive and negative effects and the effects of certain combinations. Provide information and check whether that information was learned via multiple-choice test that people have to pass in order to get a license.

Progressive usage fees: The negative side effects of drugs are not only dependent on how much are taken in society at large, many occasional users might be less of a health cost than fewer people who take less as a group, but more per person. With an electronic payment system, it is possible to have individualized fees that better correspond to cost.

Both proposals aren't airtight and can be circumvented by people sharing that stuff. Against that, usage could be closer monitored at the point of dispensing it (you wouldn't be allowed to save much for later) or regularly drug testing everybody (if only the license idea gets implemented, it will be enough to only harass people without license). Penalties for circumvention should focus on those who give the drugs and not on those who receive.

[GoddessCleoLover]

I tend to favor full legalization of marijuana and decriminalization of the possession of narcotics. I don't favor legalization of the status of large-scale traffickers of heroin and cocaine, to the contrary I would favor a Mao Zedong approach to them.