Working as a manager

[Elysian]

Is it wrong to work as a manager if one is committed to leftist ideals, especially when no jobs are available? Or must one stick to clerical and labor work for the sake of solidarity?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Is it wrong to work as a manager if one is committed to leftist ideals, especially when no jobs are available? Or must one stick to clerical and labor work for the sake of solidarity?That would be an individual preference. I think it's a strange question because would there really be a lack of temp or clerical work while there are lots of openings in middle-management? But at any rate, revolutionary leftism isn't about ideal lifestyle choices - Engels was rich and a capitalist but he also became a committed revolutionary. Anyone can be a Marxist revolutionary - if you're upper class though it just means being a class traitor for the working class.

Personally I just don't think I could do some management jobs if it meant overseeing other workers and firing people - it wouldn't really be about ideals so much as I just wouldn't be good at it because I'd end up arguing with my higher-ups and probably be replaced. But I have had low-level jobs that are called "manager" but I didn't oversee anyone directly and so I was basically like any other wage earner with people only above me or at the same level.

As far as strategically placing yourself in your job for political reasons, then it would be hard to organize workers at your job if you were also their manager :lol: - "Get to work - psst, but also organize so that you folks don't have to take my shit all the time".

[cb9's_unity]

I've actually had some good discussions with my mom recently about her experiences working under capitalism. She's held management positions here and there in her life and has clashed with the people above her in regards to how to treat the people below her. In the 70's she resisted old trends by being the only manager in the company to hire people who weren't white. Later she refused to coerce her workers to put in time off of the clock. That and she tried to put more effort into making her employee's day suck less than squeezing every dime out of them.

My mom doesn't do this out of any socialist inclinations, she's a life long liberal. Yet when given a position of power over other working class people she didn't forget her class roots. The people who worked for her had an advocate for their interests. Of course, one can't expect to move up the capitalist ladder this way, or even to stay a manager for very long. If one is committed to pro-working class ideals, the management position can off you a position to express solidarity at a higher wage. I would certainly want a boss who held compassion and understanding above productivity.

[#FF0000]

i remember a friend of mine was a line-lead (which i guess is kind of a manager) at a factory we worked at for an overnight shift. He used to assign people naptime

[Prometeo liberado]

Good Topic! I have felt that in some circumstances being a manager/marxist has helped me get a better view of the hows and why's of the business as it pertains to employee relations and the quest for even more profits. In one instance the managers had to sit through a motivational seminar(thread on this coming soon)aptly named "Not who you hire, but who you fire". Needless to say we all feigned agreement then went about letting every employee know that the owner was more of an asshole than previously thought. Point being you can be an effective manager and run an efficient business without resorting to shitting on people.

[RGacky3]

No.

We live in a shitty system, why would you WANT to be on the bottom of it.

Obviously don't do anything that would go against your concience. But its not GOOD to be a low level worker.

[RedAtheist]

I don't believe that anyone should be in a position of authority (over other adults) that they were not elected to. This includes bosses.

However we do live in a society in which this is the way things are (for now.) If you think that you will do a better job of treating the workers properly than other bosses will, then keep your position as a manager, but be willing to give up that position if there is a revolution and the workers vote against you when selecting who will be on the worker's council.

[RevSpetsnaz]

No, if you hold a managerial position it puts you in a better position overall to influence how the workers are treated.

[eyeheartlenin]

elysian really is the current clone of tir1944, and this thread is just elysian being provocative, I think. As for the question raised, I worked under a lot of administrators, and they were, for the most part, power-hungry jerks. I can't really imagine a class-conscious worker seeking the opportunity to order other workers around arbitrarily and get off on giving orders, which is what I saw administrators do, for over three decades in the university where I worked. My fellow admin assistants were salt of the earth, generally, unlike the people eager to order the rest of us around.

And the other thing is that when someone with genuine personality and talent gets advanced, to become an administrator, and I saw this happen a lot when I was working, that person is effectively lost as a fellow worker, since her/his continued employment and advancement will depend on success, frequently through intimidation, in having workers complete the tasks needed to be done. Each person who advances to an administrative position, is one individual lost to our side of the class struggle, I think.

Better to be a worker, than a boss-in-training/administrator

[RGacky3]

I can't really imagine a class-conscious worker seeking the opportunity to order other workers around arbitrarily and get off on giving orders, which is what I saw administrators do, for over three decades in the university where I worked.

I can think of more pay being a reason.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Is it wrong to work as a manager if one is committed to leftist ideals, especially when no jobs are available? Or must one stick to clerical and labor work for the sake of solidarity?
Before I became disabled, I had opportunities in my working life for management positions, and I always turned them down.

[Anon4chan1235]

Is it wrong to work as a manager if one is committed to leftist ideals, especially when no jobs are available? Or must one stick to clerical and labor work for the sake of solidarity?

Do not hate yourself for what capitalism forces you to do in order to survive, hate that capitalism forces you to do so, and because of that, hate capitalism itself.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

The whole idea of socialism is that we dont want to be working class anymore. Remember, its not the persons that we struggle against, its the system. Hypotheticly i can imagine it to be better if the position of a manager is filled with radical, class councius workers.

[Ostrinski]

Go for it. Leftism is not a religion, does not entail lifestyle choices, etc etc.

But uh


Or must one stick to clerical and labor work for the sake of solidarityApparently you already don't have any qualms about taking a reactionary social function, so what's the problem?

[workersadvocate]

Did I miss it, or did not a single person tell the OP that accepting a position as a manager for capitalist interests is CROSSING THE CLASS LINE and objectively makes one an ENEMY of workers in class struggle regardless of the chance they think nice things about us workers.

God damn middle class left thinks it's okay to be management for cappies!

[Ostrinski]

Did I miss it, or did not a single person tell the OP that accepting a position as a manager for capitalist interests is CROSSING THE CLASS LINE and objectively makes one an ENEMY of workers in class struggle regardless of the chance they think nice things about us workers.

God damn middle class left thinks it's okay to be management for cappies!Whether it's ok or not ok is up to the individual's perception, but a single individual deciding on whether or not to take a managerial position has no relationship to the class struggle in the macrocosmic sense.

[Decolonize The Left]

Did I miss it, or did not a single person tell the OP that accepting a position as a manager for capitalist interests is CROSSING THE CLASS LINE and objectively makes one an ENEMY of workers in class struggle regardless of the chance they think nice things about us workers.

God damn middle class left thinks it's okay to be management for cappies!

Being a manager doesn't mean you've crossed the class line. You need to re-read your basic Marxism.

Classes are relationships to the means of production. The capitalist class owns the means of production and the working class labors upon the mean of production. Period.

Being a manager doesn't mean you own shit, in fact, you still own nothing. You're paid more than the basic laborers but this doesn't change the fact that you're still working class. Being a manager is just another form of labor - it's a less physical form but you are still trading your labor for a wage which cannot be equal to the value of your labor.

Shit man, no need to be so uberstrict about something trivial like this.

- August

[workersadvocate]

Next question will be : is it okay if I work as a cop?

Cops don't own the MoP either, and could be consider workers in strictly economic terms.
But that ain't the whole story, just like it ain't the whole story with managers.

[#FF0000]

I think there's a difference between a manager with hire/fire power and, like, a line manager or a shift manager

[Decolonize The Left]

Next question will be : is it okay if I work as a cop?

Cops don't own the MoP either, and could be consider workers in strictly economic terms.
But that ain't the whole story, just like it ain't the whole story with managers.

Actually it's like comparing apples and oranges.

While economically members of the working class, cops actively repress working-class action and serve as stewards for the protection of the capitalist state. Managers just have a better paying job.

Stop being ridiculous.


I think there's a difference between a manager with hire/fire power and, like, a line manager or a shift manager

Absolutely and a good point.

- August

[Tavarisch_Mike]

About the cops i just want to point out that in some (individual cases) police have activly taken part for the working class. Example, during the great coalfild war in the small town of Matewan, West Virginia, the local sheriff Callahan took part in the defence of the town when the coal company sended armed ppl in order to secure theire scabs strike breaking.

There have also been examples of cops who joins syndicalist unions. But on a whole there is no point in activly trying to recruit them to the labour movement, since history shown us that they often tend to take part for the ruling classes, when struggle intenses.

[workersadvocate]

Actually it's like comparing apples and oranges.

While economically members of the working class, cops actively repress working-class action and serve as stewards for the protection of the capitalist state. Managers just have a better paying job.

Stop being ridiculous.



Absolutely and a good point.

- August

Who polices the business operations for its owners, whether they have direct or indirect hire/fire power? Ever heard of a "write-up" discipline action?
Managers are not just workers with better pay, and it wouldn't fundamentally change things if they were payed only what the average workers in their operations received for compensation.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Tavarisch Mike; I am a bit of a MATEWAN geek so forgive me for correcting you; the sheriff/chief of police to whom you refer was named Sid Hatfield, and as a member of the famous Hatfield clan he chose to side with his clan over the capitalist outsiders. Paid for it with his life, as he was murdered during the West Virginia Coalfield wars.

[Deicide]

I hope to become a professor one day.

Does my ambition make me bourgeois scum?

Just wondering.

[eric922]

I hope to become a professor one day.

Does my ambition make me bourgeois scum?

Just wondering.
I asked a similar question about becoming a lawyer, the general consensus seemed to be we aren't lifestyleists. Do what you can to help working class and be prepared to give up your position if you need,in the event of a socialist revolution. Remember Engels himself was a capitalist and no one attacks him for it.

[workersadvocate]

I really hate this Engels-was-a-cappie copout among the left. He was born into it, in the early 19th century...and he betrayed that class in favor of the international working class as lifelong revolutionary partner of Karl Marx and co-developer of Marxism. Quite an exception to the rule. I'd say unless a cappie goes at least as far as Engels in betraying his class for the advancement of the interests of the international working class, they get a no-go. How many capitalists in the 21st century would make it according to that standard?
Perhaps a tiny handful of exceptional cases worldwide, at most, and I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[Revolution starts with U]

Ya, but did he democratize the workplace? :lol:

[workersadvocate]

Ya, but did he democratize the workplace? :lol:

Good question I can't answer about Engels.
In fact, should such a capitalist "democratize" on his own initiative, or prepare workers to demand/seize control with their own conscious organized power and then accept their terms?
I believe in working class self-emancipation "from below".