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Morpheus
23rd November 2003, 07:35
Authoritarian Socialism: A Geriatric Disorder
by Morpheus

Although Authoritarian Socialists [1] like to portray themselves as advocates of a radically egalitarian and democratic society, reality is somewhat different. One cannot have centralized planning, or any other form of economic hierarchy, and a classless society. Attempts to establish so-called "workers’ states" inevitably results in the establishment of a new ruling class over the workers. The Communist Manifesto is really a manifesto of state-capitalism. The "conquest of political power by the proletariat" in practice really means the conquest of state power by a political party or group of leaders that claims to represent the proletariat. Upon taking power that party then ends up waging war against and subjugating the proletariat, establishing itself as a new ruling class.

The economic program put forth by Marxists [2] is essentially state-capitalism. The Manifesto says, "the proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degrees, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state." This is a proscription for what is now known as a centrally planned economy. Implementing this policy will never, and has never, liberated the working class but instead replaces one set of exploiters with a new set.

In a centrally planned economy, instead of decisions being made by the producers themselves decisions are made by a small group of centralized planners in Moscow (or Washington or London or some other city). The workers are disempowered, deprived of control of their own lives, and forced to submit to these planners. Material conditions have a huge impact on a person’s consciousness, behavior, and material interests. Individuals are shaped by the institutions they are a part of, the position they occupy in those institutions and the social relationships they have with others. Since they are in different conditions then the workers these bureaucrats will tend to end up with different consciousness and material interests. There's no reason to expect them to act in the workers’ interests, and since they have different material interests then the workers the planning class will come into conflict with the workers (a conflict called class struggle). This happens even if your bureaucrats are elected workers, as, once elected, they are no longer workers but bureaucrats. Thus the actual rulers are not workers but bureaucrats who end up constituting a new ruling class that exploits the proletariat just as the previous ruling class did. It doesn't matter whether this is applied in a single isolated country, a third of the globe or the entire world - this is inherent in the nature of a centrally planned economy.

Instead of centralized planning we should implement a classless society based on self-management. All workplaces should be placed under the control of those who work in them. Consensus and/or direct democracy (or a combination of the two) would be used to make decisions. Everyone should have an equal say in all decisions that involve them. Worker assemblies can form networks with each other so as to coordinate production, thereby forming confederations of worker assemblies. This would be based on decentralized direct democracy with decision-making power resting in the hands of ordinary people. The worker committees and federations formed by anarcho-syndicalists during the Spanish Revolution are one way this could be done.

Establishing a state controlled by the proletariat, and/or the majority of the population, is not possible and attempts to do so always leads to the formation of a new group of exploiters to replace the old ones. There has never been an attempt to establish a workers’ state that has not done this (as predicted by anarchists 150 years ago). Marxists like to talk about "historical forces" but they actually ignore a good chunk of history, the predicted results of their revolutions degenerating into dictatorial tyrannies being a prime example.

Although cloaked in democratic rhetoric, after coming to power Lenin and Trotsky both came to the conclusion that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" is really a one party state - which they equated with working class rule. Lenin said, "When we are reproached with having established a dictatorship of one party ... we say ‘Yes, it is a dictatorship of one party! This is what we stand for and we shall not shift from that position." [3] He generalized this claim to apply to all countries (not just Russia) arguing that "the dictatorship of the proletariat cannot be exercised through an organization embracing the whole of the class, because in all capitalist countries (and not only over here, in one of the most backward) the proletariat is still so divided, so degraded, and so corrupted in parts ... that an organization taking in the whole proletariat cannot directly exercise proletarian dictatorship. It can be exercised only by a vanguard." [4] In "Ultra-Left Wing Communism: An Infantile Disorder" he continued this theme, "the mere presentation of the question, namely, ‘dictatorship of the Party or dictatorship of the class, dictatorship (Party) of the leaders or dictatorship (Party) of the masses?’ -- testifies to the most incredible and hopeless confusion of mind." [5] He continued this theme, claiming that "after two and a half years of Communist rule we stood before the entire world and said at the Communist International that the dictatorship of the proletariat is impossible in any other way but through the dictatorship of the Communist Party."

Trotsky agreed, stating several years after the Russian Revolution that, "if there is one question which basically not only does not require revision but does not so much as admit the thought of revision, it is the question of the dictatorship of the party." [6] He defended, "the Leninist principle, inviolable for every Bolshevik, that the dictatorship of the proletariat is and can be realized only through the dictatorship of the party." [7] "The revolutionary party (vanguard) which renounces its own dictatorship surrenders the masses to the counter-revolution ... abstractly speaking, it would be very well if the party dictatorship could be replaced by the ‘dictatorship’ of the whole toiling people without any party, but this presupposes such a high level of political development among the masses that it can never be achieved under capitalist conditions." Referring to the Workers Opposition, a Bolshevik faction that wanted to introduce more democracy into Soviet Russia following the end of the civil war (and was quickly purged), Trotsky warned, "They have come out with dangerous slogans. They have made a fetish of democratic principles. They have placed the workers’ right to elect representatives above the party. As if the Party were not entitled to assert its dictatorship even if that dictatorship clashed with the passing moods of the workers’ democracy! ... The Party is obliged to maintain its dictatorship ... regardless of temporary vacillations even in the working class ... The dictatorship does not base itself at every moment on the formal principle of a workers’ democracy." [8]

There is no evidence to indicate that Lenin, Trotsky or any other mainstream Bolshevik leaders regretted the loss of democracy and workers' power or even referred to these losses it as a retreat (as Lenin did when War Communism was replaced by the NEP). The idea that a one party dictatorship means the rule of the working class is simply ludicrous. There is no reason why such a dictatorship would magically obey the workers and in all likelihood it will pursue the interests of it’s leaders, suppressing opposition (as was done in Soviet Russia and nearly every other one-party state in history). In a one-party state the leaders of the party make most major decisions, not the working class. Hence, it is not the rule of the workers but of a small elite. By implemented a one-party state Lenin & Trotsky destroyed any possibility of the working class running Russian society.

Of course, theoretically one could advocate a "dictatorship of the proletariat" which is not a one-party state but takes some other form. A multi-party state similar to the so-called "liberal democracies" in West Europe and the United States (but without private property) could be proposed, but such a multi-party state would still be an instrument of minority rule (as they are presently) even with socialist politicians running things. A "dictatorship of the proletariat" along such lines would not be compatible with Leninism (since Lenin explicitly advocated a one-party state), but it could be compatible with other forms of authoritarian socialism. While Marx did claim that "Between capitalist and communist society there lies ... a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat." [9] a minority of his followers claim that this does not have to be a one-party state and Marx himself was rather vague on what form this dictatorship would take. Nonetheless, there is no form of the state--neither monarchical, one-party, multi-party nor any other - which would allow the working class to control it.

The structure of states makes it impossible for it to be anything other then an organ of minority rule. The state is an organization with a monopoly (or near-monopoly) on the legitimate use of violence. It is a centralized rule-making body that stands "above" society and uses various armed bodies of people and coercive institutions (courts, prisons, etc.) to force people to obey it. It is an organ of class rule that cannot be used to abolish classes. How are the workers supposed to maintain control of an organization standing "above" society with it's own specialized armed forces and maintaining a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence? It's not possible - the state is the one with a monopoly on violence and could use that monopoly to ignore what the proletariat want and order them around - effectively forming a new ruling class over the proletariat.

All states have three characteristics:
1) A "monopoly of violence" in a given territorial area;
2) This violence having a "professional," institutional nature;
3) A hierarchical and authoritarian nature - centralisation of power and initiative into the hands of a few.

All states have historically had these characteristics. Such an organization inevitably becomes part of a ruling elite. If a group has a monopoly of force it can easily establish itself as ruler over the rest of the proletariat, even if that organization is initially made up proletarians. The hierarchical nature of the state insures that this will be the rule of a small elite. No organization should have a monopoly or near-monopoly on force. The state maintains armed bodies of people with a top down authoritarian chain of command that control the population and coerce it into obeying the orders of those on the top of the chain of command. This is always a form of minority rule because it is that minority on the top of the chain of command who makes the decisions and thus controls the rest of the population.

One idea for the proletariat to control the state is making representatives recallable in order to keep control of the state by the proletariat. There are a number of problems with this. First, the state by definition has a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. The politicians can simply use that monopoly to disregard recall and public opinion in situations where it gets in their way. This is precisely what the Bolsheviks did when they were recalled in the Spring of 1918; Soviets that voted the wrong way were simply disbanded. The methods used don't need to be that crude, there are much subtler ways to manipulate the electorate. There are many states today in which representatives can be recalled, but that does not mean the proletariat are the rulers or change the capitalist nature of those states.

A deeper problem is that society is still divided into a group of order givers and order takers. The "workers' parliament" (or politburo or council of people's commissars etc.) gives orders, the rest of the population obeys. The workers do not come up with and implement their own plans and projects, but instead elect a tiny group of leaders who make the decisions for them. The workers aren't really running society in this case, a small group of representatives are. Actual decision-making power lies not with the workers but with that small group of leaders. The majority of workers don't actually make the decisions but are instead reduced to choosing their masters. When the "workers' parliament" (or legislature or council of people's commissars etc.) is making the decisions the working class is not.

In all states there is a division between rulers and ruled; between those who give orders and those who obey them. By it’s very nature the state divides a population into rulers and ruled. As Malatesta said:

"A government, that is a group of people entrusted with making the laws and empowered to use the collective power to oblige each individual to obey them, is already a privileged class and cut off from the people. As any constituted body would do, it will instinctively seek to extend its powers, to be beyond public control, to impose its own policies and to give priority to special interests. Having been put in a privileged position, the government is already at odds with the people whose strength it disposes of." [10]

Furthermore, representative democracy (even with recallable representatives) is self-refuting. If the workers are capable of running society then we don't need a state at all; we can dispense with the state and have the direct self-rule of the masses. If workers are capable of deciding whether the decisions of a representative are good or bad, and thus deciding on whether or not to vote for or recall them then they are capable of directly making those decisions themselves. "for recall to work the population must be in a position to judge 'the questions of the day' in order to evaluate the actions of their representatives. ... Simply put, whoever is competent enough to pick their masters is competent to govern themselves and whoever is able to recall their representative is able to decide on 'the questions of the day' directly and explicitly mandate them. Thus, if recall is possible, so is self-management" [11] and the state is not needed. "The very theory of [representative democracy] contains its own negation. If the entire people were truly sovereign there would no longer be either government or governed; the sovereign would be reduced to nothing; the state would have no raison d'etre, would be identical with ssociety and disappear into industrial organization." [12]

If the workers are the ruling class, as the Communist Manifesto advocates, who are they to rule over? If the capitalists still exist then the workers do not rule because the capitalists have the power in the boss/worker relationship. If there are no capitalists then everyone rules. But if everyone rules then no one rules and there is no state.

The myth of the "good state" is a popular one among leftists, but in reality every state throughout history has been founded on the blood of the poor (even "socialist" ones). Liberalism and Authoritarian Socialism both share a common theme in that they establish systems of minority rule and claim that this system of minority rule is actually majority rule; that the rulers aren't really the rulers. With Liberalism they claim that under their state "the people" rule but the wealthy (and corrupt politicians) actually rule; with Marxism they claim that under their state "the proletariat" rule but actually the party (or the leaders of the party) rule.

Most Marxists claim that a state is necessary to prevent the capitalists from using violence to launch a counterrevolution and force us back into capitalism. A state is not necessary to prevent this; there are many other ways to do so. First off, after an anarchist revolution there wouldn’t be any capitalists. The working class would directly seize the means of production and a self-managed classless economy implemented. The capitalist class would then cease to exist. Capitalists could not attempt to launch a counterrevolution because there would be no capitalists. Former capitalists and other reactionaries could theoretically attempt to launch a counterrevolution. This could be stopped with the same means used to overthrow capitalism and the state--direct action. This includes, but is not limited to, civil disobedience, strikes, insurrections, street fighting, etc. If necessary the population could be armed and decentralized networks or confederations of democratic militias formed to engage in guerilla warfare against the reactionary forces. The later was implemented by Anarchists in the Ukraine during the Russian Revolution and were successful in defeating the Germans, Austrians, Ukrainian nationalists and several white armies despite being massively out gunned. Unfortunately, after the civil war was over the Bolsheviks stabbed them in the back and used their vastly superior resources to conquer the Ukraine. They then implemented a reign of terror and violently suppressed all opposition, [13] showing how counterrevolutionary "workers' states" really are..

Many Marxists define the state as "the organization of violence for the suppression of some class" [14] (or something similar to this) and, based on this, claim that the above measures constitute a "state." This is a common Marxist fallacy whereby Marxists play with the definition of words to make two very different things seem the same. This definition is overly broad. To equate a confederation of community assemblies or a decentralized network of militias with the centralized states created by all Marxists when they get in power is pure nonsense. The state is more than merely an instrument of force used by one class against other class(es). If two workers punch their boss there is force being used against a different class, but that does not mean that those two workers suddenly become a state. If a boss beats up an employee he is not magically transformed into a state, even though he is using force against a different class. To equate _all_ use of force between classes with a state is pure sophistry. Marxists generally do not have a good understanding of the state; this definition is not based on any kind of empirical analysis of the state but is plucked out of thin air to suit their political agenda. When Marxists attempt to make an empirical analysis of the state they often end up acknowledging this and coming close to the anarchist view of the state but refuse to see the political implications. For example, in "The Family, Private Property and the State" Fredrick Engels differentiates between the state (which he describes as a public power placed "above" society with its own armed bodies of men and coercive institutions) and the "self-acting armed organization of the population." It is precisely the "self-acting armed organization of the population" which is advocated by anarchists [15] as a means of defeating violent counterrevolutionaries!

The main problem with Authoritarian Socialism is that the forms of organization they advocate are simply incompatible with the goals they claim to advocate. They claim to believe in an egalitarian & democratic society based on the participation of everyone yet desire social structures - hierarchy, states, centralism, etc. - which are incompatible with these goals. Authoritarian Socialism, especially in its Leninist form, is really a philosophy advocating the rule of a small burueaucratic elite who use egalitarian rhetoric to justify their rule.


Notes
1. The term ‘authoritarian socialism’ refers to all forms of socialism which seek to use the state to abolish capitalism
2. I am referring to mainstream Marxists here. Those Libertarian Marxists who agree with anarchists on the abolition of the state are excluded from this critique.
3. Lenin’s Collected Works, vol. 29, p.535
4. Collected Works vol. 32, p. 21
5. Left-Wing Communism, p. 26
6. Leon Trotsky Speaks, p, 158
7. Platform of the Opposition, p. 62
8. 10th Party Congress
9. Critique of the Gotha Program
10. Anarchy P. 34
11. Anarcho, "A few comments on on 'Bakunin's Statism and Anarchy: A review by Chris Gray" http://anarchism.ws/writers/anarcho/Bakuni...n_critique.html (http://anarchism.ws/writers/anarcho/Bakunin_critique.html)
12. Guerin, Anarchism P. 17
13. See "The History of the Makhnovist Movement" by Peter Arishnov
14. Essential Works of Lenin, p. 287
15. With the exception of anarcho-pacifists, who believe that only non-violent means (civil disobedience, etc.) should be used to resist counterrevolutionaries. If such means are sufficient to defeat counterrevolutionaries it would be preferable, but if not I believe workers are justified in using force to defend ourselves.

Invader Zim
23rd November 2003, 14:10
This is fucking spam now... did you not see the other 2 threads on this subject, both of which are still being used.

Why didnt you just add this artical on the the end of one of those threads?

crazy comie
24th November 2003, 15:39
what a load of anarchist crap

The Feral Underclass
24th November 2003, 20:22
And I suppose your extensive critizism deserves lots of attention.

crazy comie
25th November 2003, 15:32
sorry .but he should have put it in a thread deling with the dictatorship of the prolitarian then it would have had attention paid to it and critisisms dstated.

redstar2000
26th November 2003, 02:42
Far from being "spam", it is a coherent and well-argued article...which is very well-suited to the Che-Lives E-Zine.

I can understand why both Enema and "crazy comie" would have difficulty comprehending it.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

S.B.
26th November 2003, 03:52
Comrades


I myself find Comrade Morpheus' post to be well in order being verified by footnotes to establish legitimacy of all statements,hence if there is cause for contention then its source must lie elsewhere.

Although I personally am not in agreement with anarchy this does not nulify the fact that Comrade Morpheus has presented sound arguments against the authoritarian strain of socialism,an aspect of socialism which I myself find necessary for the establishment and maintenance of a truly democratic society,albeit a refined and less harsh sense of authoritarianism.

As for the one-party state I can understand the hesitance of certain liberal factions in rushing to embrace such due to the very fact of elitism within the one-party wherein an opportunistic element creeps in and plunges the people into a deeper oppression than the former government from which they had been newly liberated.

However,in reality there can only be the one-party within a socialist society in that the overall aim of socialism is to create an egalitarian society wherein all people constitute a unified whole,no class-distinctions,no prejudism or bias,no uppers and lowers in matters of income and social status,only one commonwealth community living and sharing in equal rights and responsibilities.

In this sense of reasoning no place can be given to any notion of separatism,for to allow merely a grain of such beliefs to take root it would ultimately mature and bear the fruit of future strife,hatred and bloodshed.

As I write this post I am reminded of the vast number of isms throughout the world and within the socialist movement itself,these must eventually be abandoned and abolished if we dare imagine the realization of our goals.

For this reason I advocate the idea of the one-party in that divided intentions and divided devotion destines a movement to failure.As a practical man I tend to shun idle speculations and proposed pipedreams which have no place in logical reality.

I am reminded how a certain commander in times past let a captured enemy go free,in time this same enemy rallied a troop and gave the commander cause for a delayed victory,this for me became a guiding principle in all matters of combat,be it armed confrontation or else in terms of ideological or psychological war ... one cannot afford the dismissal of ones enemies due to the potential of future harm.

Anarchy is simply the idea of freedom and rights without responsibility,whereas I am for freedom and rights based on responsibility and for this one can call me a Bolshevik,an authoritarian,or whatever they wish but I am not about to compromise my integrity simply to court the approval of others,personally I despise cowards,liars and brown-nosers.


K.S.B.

crazy comie
26th November 2003, 15:19
I dissagre with it but i do understand it there fo i see it was infact a good post and was not infact crap. i just dissagree with it

YKTMX
26th November 2003, 16:19
This happens even if your bureaucrats are elected workers, as, once elected, they are no longer workers but bureaucrats


. If necessary the population could be armed and decentralized networks or confederations of democratic militias formed to engage in guerilla warfare against the reactionary forces


If we apply the strange logic of first quote then surely members of a "militia", having been democratically elected in some form to that militia, would straight away cease to be a part of the class they originated from but would automatically form a new armed class which would be in a position to oppress the working class just as forcefully as any "beuarecracy".

Morpheus
26th November 2003, 22:09
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 05:19 PM
If we apply the strange logic of first quote then surely members of a "militia", having been democratically elected in some form to that militia, would straight away cease to be a part of the class they originated from but would automatically form a new armed class which would be in a position to oppress the working class just as forcefully as any "beuarecracy".
That is part of the anarcho-pacifist objection to militias. It would be correct if the militias constituted some sort of professional/permenant force or if they held authority over others. Counter-revolutionaries should be defeated by an armed self-organizing population. Anyone opposed to the counter-revolutionary arm(ies) can take up arms and fight against them, forming their own militias or joining already existing ones. There should be no monopoly of force nor should these militias establish themselves as a ruling authority over the general population. Individual workers can enter or leave militias at will. When the counter-revolutionary armies are defeated the miltias should be disbanded, there should be no standing army. A permenant division between individuals in the militias and those not should be avoided. The difference between this and central planners is that (1) militias do not have authority over the working class, they simply elminate those attempting to impose their authority on us and then disband and (2) militias are temporary, whereas authoritarian socialists intend central planning to exist for several decades at a minimum. There is a danger of militias solidifying into a ruling power over the rest of the population, but I think this can be avoided by (1) basing the militias on participatory democracy (2) federating them with the community & workplace assemblies (3) having the militias only eliminate counter-revolutionary armies, and NOT attempt to establish their own authority over the general population (4) not esablishing any group with a monopoly of legitimate violence and (5) demobilizing the militias when the counter-revolutionary armies have been defeated, there should be no standing army nor any permenant division between those in the militias and those not in them. And of course, if the revolution can be won without a civil war then militias aren't really necessary at all.

The "strange logic" is called materialism.

Morpheus
26th November 2003, 22:11
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 04:52 AM
Anarchy is simply the idea of freedom and rights without responsibility
No it isn't.

Morpheus
26th November 2003, 22:14
Originally posted by [email protected] 26 2003, 03:42 AM
Far from being "spam", it is a coherent and well-argued article...which is very well-suited to the Che-Lives E-Zine.
Thanks. The E-Zine guidelines say they only publish articles not published elsewhere, which makes this article ineligable since I've published it on my homepage. I also didn't get any response about the article I submitted on the Spanish Civil War.

YKTMX
27th November 2003, 00:21
whereas authoritarian socialists intend central planning to exist for several decades at a minimum

Where do you get this from? I have never heard any Marxist specify how long it will take for the state to wither away. It may well be years, it would probably more likely be months.


federating them with the community & workplace assemblies

Surely that is just accountability, which can just as easily be maintained by recalls for "workers" elected to any position within "a state".


having the militias only eliminate counter-revolutionary armies, and NOT attempt to establish their own authority over the general population

How do you make sure this will happen? What diffirentiates the attempt to stop the beaurecracy becoming a new elite from the attempt to stop your "confederated miltia groups" becoming one.


demobilizing the militias when the counter-revolutionary armies have been defeated, there should be no standing army nor any permenant division between those in the militias and those not in the

Who decides to de-mobolize them? If anarchism preaches ANYTHING it preaches that people DON'T give up positions of power easily? What would make this any diffirent. Let's have some consistency from you lot here please.

Dr. Rosenpenis
27th November 2003, 00:44
You must think progressively from capitalism to communism. Once the revolution occurs, there will still exist people whose interests are not common, but instead destructive to the common goal of classless ness. These people seek the selective and elitist benevolence of capitalism. For the people to wield power until the reactionaries' aspirations of capitalism are crushed, the peoples' power must be political and in opposition to the existing bourgeoisie. It is irrational to form a society that ignores the reality of oppostion to itself.

Dr. Rosenpenis
27th November 2003, 00:45
And even though I disagree with what you say, this is a good article, nice job. :)

S.B.
27th November 2003, 01:49
Comrade Morpheus


As concerns your response to a statement in my previous post ... "Anarchy is simply the idea of freedom and rights without responsibility" ... to which you responded,"No it isn't."

Comrade,in the greater sense of the matter you my friend are correct and it wouldve been more correct for me to have stated that anarchy refuses to recognize hierarchy in any of its forms,however,anarchism does advocate the acceptance of personal responsibility in the spirit of mutual cooperation as means to realize the ideal society.

Anarchists are themselves socialists,though they consider themselves libertarian socialists as opposed to Leninists and their concept of authoritarian rule or state socialism.It is for this cause that anarchists maintain the anarchist title rather than referring to themselves simply as socialists so as to differentiate themselves from the recognized majority of socialists which are largely state socialists - Leninists,Stalinists and Maoists.

As I have stated in a previous post at this forum,I prefer to shun isms and do not consider it a matter of dire concern were others to label me.In my long journey into socio-political thought I have studied many teachings by various thinkers and thereby consider the stirrings of my psyche far too complex to simply be cast in a single mold..

I personally find myself in agreement with a large quanity of anarchist teachings,however,I likewise am not about to dismiss altogether the foundations of Marxist-Leninist theories that I have come to embrace,were it possible to find agreeable grounds whereupon the two can meet and reconcile then none would be more pleased than I.


K.S.B.

crazy comie
27th November 2003, 16:39
If the democraticly elected implements of the dictatorship of the prolitarian are easly removable from ther positions an controld from below as well as being moneterd from bellow then there would not be a chance fror them to deform like in stalinist russia.

Morpheus
27th November 2003, 22:51
Originally posted by [email protected] 27 2003, 01:21 AM
Where do you get this from? I have never heard any Marxist specify how long it will take for the state to wither away. It may well be years, it would probably more likely be months.
http://www.struggle.net/ALDS/part_05_content.htm by a Marxist says it will take several decades at a minimum to build a moneyless economy (communism) and that a state is necessary until that happens. Every Marxist I've read (excluding the Ultra-Lefts, who reject the state) has either said it will take decades (or more) for it to "wither away" or been vague on the time. This is implied by Principles of Communism Engels and other writings. You are the first Marxist I've met (and I've met many) to claim that the "proletarian" dictatorship would only last a few months. A few months is rather pointless - it takes that long just to get a government up and running. It took 9 months just for Bolshevik Russia to write a constitution, and the same amount of time to fully implement centralized planning. By the time central planning actually gets off the ground it would be abolished. I see no reason to implement centralized planning for a few months, and then implement self-management. We might as well go straight to self-management.


Surely that is just accountability, which can just as easily be maintained by recalls for "workers" elected to any position within "a state".

It's also coordination. I already explained why making representatives recallable won't put the state under the control of the workers in my article.


What diffirentiates the attempt to stop the beaurecracy becoming a new elite from the attempt to stop your "confederated miltia groups" becoming one.

Your bureuacracy controls a monopoly of force and it has authority over the general population, which guarentees it becomes a new elite. Anarchist militias do not have a monopoly of force nor do they have authority over the general population.


If anarchism preaches ANYTHING it preaches that people DON'T give up positions of power easily? What would make this any diffirent.

The militias are not a position of power

YKTMX
28th November 2003, 16:23
by a Marxist says it will take several decades at a minimum to build a moneyless economy (communism) and that a state is necessary until that happens. Every Marxist I've read (excluding the Ultra-Lefts, who reject the state) has either said it will take decades (or more) for it to "wither away" or been vague on the time. This is implied by Principles of Communism Engels and other writings. You are the first Marxist I've met (and I've met many) to claim that the "proletarian" dictatorship would only last a few months. A few months is rather pointless - it takes that long just to get a government up and running. It took 9 months just for Bolshevik Russia to write a constitution, and the same amount of time to fully implement centralized planning. By the time central planning actually gets off the ground it would be abolished. I see no reason to implement centralized planning for a few months, and then implement self-management. We might as well go straight to self-management.



I suppose it depends on the nature of the revolution. If it is a worldwide, simultaneous revolution, then I imagine the dictatorship lasting nothing like decades. If it is confined to a continent or even one country, the process of consolidation would obviously take far longer.


Your bureuacracy controls a monopoly of force and it has authority over the general population, which guarentees it becomes a new elite. Anarchist militias do not have a monopoly of force nor do they have authority over the general population.

Yes, the WORKING CLASS has a monoploy of force over itself and society, that is the essence of the dictatorship. That is Marxism, and something I won't apologize for. You make bold assertions about what these militias will and will not be, but you make mistake of not recognizing that these militias have a human form. They would not be just be political rhetoric or "theories" and would be just as subject to human desires and frailties as elected officials. Also, I find the idea that just because something is not "Statist" or "centralized" that it can't exert influence over the general population odd. If one group has a gun, and another group doesn't, then that group is in a position of influence. And this would just as likely be abused as any "Elected" position.


The militias are not a position of power

I'm afraid you haven't shown this to be true. You can throw about words like "de-centralized" and "confederations", that simple doesn't prove this. The fact is, these miltias would be in a distinct position to exert physical coercion over the general population.

redstar2000
28th November 2003, 23:27
The fact is, these militias would be in a distinct position to exert physical coercion over the general population.

But their coercion is, perforce, limited by their localized power.

Let us imagine "Comrade Charisma" does indeed emerge. Cleverly using libertarian rhetoric, he builds up a substantial group of followers and then begins to tighten his grip on the local communes. He begins, in some fashion, to break down egalitarian relationships and start appropriating surpluses for himself and his followers.

Because his power is localized, he must proceed slowly and carefully...making each small step back towards class society look "rational" and even "inevitable".

But, of course, there are those who see what is going on. There's nothing they can do locally but they can communicate with other communes and their militias.

They can "raise the alarm"...and they will!

Naturally, there will be a lot of initial skepticism and inertia...other communes will be reluctant to intervene both as a matter of principle (communes should mostly be left alone to work out their internal problems) and out of sheer laziness.

But as the real intent of Comrade Charisma's policies become evident, concern will grow. Other communes may refuse to have anything to do with Comrade Charisma's "realm" or "proto-state". And still other may decide that firmer measures are required.

It could get pretty nasty.

But without a large, centralized state complete with police/military apparatus...I think Comrade Charisma's "cause" is ultimately doomed to fail.

And there's a pretty good chance that someone will assassinate the bastard even before that. In a society where genuine freedom is cherished, anyone who threatens it is not likely to die of old age.

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YKTMX
28th November 2003, 23:55
And what happens if every comrade follows the example of this comrade Charisma? What makers her reaction diffirent to the others. Did she have a difficult upbrining? Has she been reading too much Lenin and not enough Bakunin?

redstar2000
29th November 2003, 14:15
What makes her reaction different to the others? Did she have a difficult upbringing? Has she been reading too much Lenin and not enough Bakunin?

Who can say? There could be any number of possible reasons why such a figure might emerge and gain some kind of local "power".

But remember where this question began; did you not start by asking what would happen if such a figure were to emerge? That was actually the question I attempted to answer.

Now, you're really asking: why shouldn't this happen everywhere, all the time?

The implication of such a question is that hierarchy is a given in human social relations. If no "leader" exists, people will create one.

Putting aside the validity of such an assumption, look at the consequences. If human societies "require" leaders, then we can quit yapping about communism or anarchism and devote out attentions to the pressing matter of who should "lead".

It's the problem of finding "the good king" all over again.

Indeed, that's the real promise of Leninism..."unlike all previous despotisms, we will be the really benevolent despots".

Of course, all previous despotism made the same promise. Despots always make that promise. It's in their job description.

Unfortunately for the Leninists, they have a track record...and it is, to put it mildly, a rather grim one.

Even if I "wanted" a despot, would it not be the height of folly to pick one from such a wretched assortment? Look at the actually existing Leninist parties; can you honestly claim that any one of them has produced a figure worthy of trust?

In the advanced capitalist countries, is there even one that is not an outright clown?

Of course, I hope (in common with many) that material conditions have changed to the point where despotism of any kind is both impractical and unacceptable.

It is quite possible that this hope is "premature"...that still further changes must take place before the very idea of despotism becomes literally unimaginable.

We shall see.

But in the meantime, I have learned enough to know that one does not achieve liberation by exchanging an old boss for a new one.

All bosses are bad.

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crazy comie
1st December 2003, 15:59
the bearucracy could be removed from there posiions by elections

Morpheus
2nd December 2003, 02:05
Almost every government in the world has elections. In no case has this resulted in a state controlled by the majority.

crazy comie
3rd December 2003, 16:16
IF you have control of all the beauracrates it gives the pepolle more power and you can tell the representatives what points to argue for before debates.

Morpheus
6th December 2003, 00:01
As I explained earlier, there's no real effective way to control the bureaucrats & representatives. They can just use their monopoly of force & centralization of power to easily subvert whatever democratic mechanisms you implement. I explained all this in my essay. History supports this. There have been hundreds of attempts to create a state controlled by the majority, ALL have failed.

crazy comie
8th December 2003, 15:43
If you have laws wich by serious punisments can't be broken saying they can be reacalled there will be know problem.

Morpheus
8th December 2003, 23:36
They had that in Russia, it didn't stop the Bolsheviks from disregarding recall in Spring 1918. It doesn't matter what laws are passed, it is the government officials who control the hierarchical armed bodies of people with a monopoly on force and who pass (or repeal) the laws - they can use that to manipulate the law however they want. They ARE the law.

Invader Zim
9th December 2003, 14:17
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 12:36 AM
They had that in Russia, it didn't stop the Bolsheviks from disregarding recall in Spring 1918. It doesn't matter what laws are passed, it is the government officials who control the hierarchical armed bodies of people with a monopoly on force and who pass (or repeal) the laws - they can use that to manipulate the law however they want. They ARE the law.
There will always be authority figures as long as there are laws. If you suggest the abolishment of laws then your ideology is already failed. All socioties must have some form of code of conduct, which its inhabitants abide by, or the socioty is wide open to abuse from corrupt people within socioty.

The Feral Underclass
9th December 2003, 16:59
Enigma


All socioties must have some form of code of conduct

I agree. And in a post-revolutioanry situation it will be enforced by peoples integrity.

Morpheus
10th December 2003, 05:13
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 03:17 PM
If you suggest the abolishment of laws then your ideology is already failed. All socioties must have some form of code of conduct, which its inhabitants abide by, or the socioty is wide open to abuse from corrupt people within socioty.
A "code of conduct" is hardly the same thing as a set of laws. Most of human history has been lived without laws, so your claim that we must have laws is obviously false.

redstar2000
10th December 2003, 14:04
There will always be authority figures as long as there are laws.

A bourgeois "socialist" considers his career options.

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crazy comie
10th December 2003, 15:20
If you have your representitve so they do what you tell them or you can sack them by voting them out they won't miss represent you esspecially if you have a recall system and all pepole in goverment positions must be elected . If you have the justice system seprate from the politicl systems it makes it harder to exploite things.

The Feral Underclass
10th December 2003, 15:27
Crazy Comie


If you have your representitve so they do what you tell them or you can sack them by voting them out they won't miss represent you esspecially if you have a recall system and all pepole in goverment positions must be elected . If you have the justice system seprate from the politicl systems it makes it harder to exploite things.

And I am called an idealist...Do you honestly believe that those people at the top can be "sacked" if you do not like what they are doing? Do you think you can oust the next Lenin or trosky. of course not. They control the media, the armed forces, the police and security forces. Even if you did want to "sack" them all they have to do is call you a subversive and counter-revolutionary and of you go to the firing squad!

Morpheus
11th December 2003, 00:48
Originally posted by crazy [email protected] 10 2003, 04:20 PM
If you have your representitve so they do what you tell them or you can sack them by voting them out they won't miss represent you esspecially if you have a recall system and all pepole in goverment positions must be elected . If you have the justice system seprate from the politicl systems it makes it harder to exploite things.
The problem is that those representatives have control over the police, military, etc who have a monopoly (or near-monopoly) of force. If you try to sack them they'll use those armed bodies of people to keep themselves in power, that's what happened in Russia. The solution is to abolish the state along with capitalism. No organization should have a monopoly of force nor should any kind of bureaucracy or hierarchy be set up. Society should be organized from the bottom up by confederations of worker and community assemblies based on decentralized direct democracy.

Making all people in government positions elected is unrealistic. There are thousands upon thousands of officials in the modern state, far too many for us to elect. Making the judicial system separate from the political system already exists in the United States. It does not change the fact that the state is an instrument of minority rule. It's actually less democratic, because it gives the judicial system as much or more power than the elected representatives.

peaccenicked
11th December 2003, 15:49
What is the dictatorship of the proletariat? Is it brureacratic control over the people? How could be that? That woud be like shooting yourself in the foot.
The dictatorship of the proletariat must be then the battle against bureaucratic control over the people. Has the dictatorship of the proletariat ever existed? Has the battle against bureacratic control over the people ever existed?
It becomes clearer that the dictatorship of the proletariat is more than a simple nomlecature for Stalinism or even Leninist practices.
Primarily in Marx's sense, it means the victory of the proletariat over the capitalists. This for him is not the immediate creation of a classless society.
That comes later. The state withers away for Marx also.
"No organisation should have monopoly of force.".
The unfortunate thing about war is that in order to win..ones forces have to concentrated, in the single task of winning. The struggle for freedom is only at its beginning.
The truism that power corrupts is also big part of what we are up against!

crazy comie
11th December 2003, 16:02
america's justice system isn't seperated from politicians as politicians appoint them.
Marxists would have elected leaders for the militia(milatery) and i consider police to be part of the justice system.