Mexican mob lynches gang members

[Zostrianos]

Brave Mexican citizens finally decided to strike back at the gangs:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-17000216

Security officials in Mexico say three men have been killed by a mob for allegedly trying to kidnap a group of youths.
Local residents in Chalco, near Mexico City, beat the men, doused them with petrol and set them alight.
Police managed to save one of the three men from the mob, but he died later in hospital.
Kidnappings are common in Mexico, where criminal gangs make money by abducting people for ransom.
Police described how locals came across the suspects as they allegedly tried to abduct a group of school children.
According to State Prosecutor Alfredo Castillo, a group of six women incited the violence by shouting: "Justice, justice, they're kidnappers!".
The prosecutor described how residents rang the church bells and around 600 people gathered in the town's main square.
A group armed with bars, clubs and bottles surrounded the three suspects and dragged them to the square, where they set fire to them.
State officials said 23 people had been detained in connection with the lynching.
In a travel warning issued on Wednesday, the US State Department warned of the rising number of kidnappings and disappearances in Mexico.
Analysts say accurate figures for the number of kidnappings are hard to come by, as many abductions only last for hours or a few days, until the ransom is paid.
Most are never reported to the authorities for fear of reprisal from the criminal gangs who carried out the kidnapping.

[Prometeo liberado]

Reads a lot like the working class turning against their own. Using the "gang member" tag is not much different than the "terrorist" tag. Is horrible torture and death at the hands of the jury the new face of justice? This is neither right nor wrong, but the ugly byproduct of a system that can not even pretend to care.

[Zostrianos]

You know, normally I have a problem with violence for any reason, but considering how Mexico (and other Latin American countries, especially Guatemala, El Salvador, Colombia, and Brazil) are practically controlled by savage gangs, who extort money from citizens and then, if they don't pay up, sometimes murder their entire families, I completely sympathize with these people who've had just about enough of living in terror. I think ultimately poverty is at the root of the problem, but the government's not doing anything, so it's either you become a slave to the gangs, or you fight back.

Apparently in Guatemala and Salvador gangs have made life so intolerable, that there's vigilante groups of citizens and cops who actually go on raids to kill gang members. These gangs are pure evil - a while back I saw a news article reporting how they found a 5 year old girl decapitated in Guatemala City if I recall, because her relatives refused to pay protection money....

[MarxSchmarx]

The problem is that "gang members" in Mexico are often either young men who come from marginalized families or the social elite and cops or, occasionally, soldiers. I guess like so much else, it's a mixture of the absurdly rich and the large population of poor people. I don't know which of these groups were subject to lynching, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was probably working class boys who had wore their jeans a little too low instead of the owner of several nightclubs.

What that BBC article fails to mention is that most are never reported because the cops likely know full well who did it if it wasn't they themselves. At best, what's the point - at worst, you risk being marked as a trouble maker by your kidnappers and their collaborators in blue.

Often the anger the frustrations get placed on the "cholos" and other marginalized segments of the working class instead of the priest whose church is built on extortion and ransom money laundered with the help of a wealthy accountant.

[Ocean Seal]

Well the police won't take care of the problem so the working class submitted its own violence. Too bad they didn't take control of more things. Fight the bosses, fight the pigs, they're on the same side as the dealers.

[Zostrianos]

At this point, I think only a revolution could get rid of the problem, along with making drugs legal (thereby cutting off the gangs' main source of profit - though I doubt the US would let that happen :thumbdown:). As soon as you create more equality, the problem would die out after a few years. Repression and crackdowns solve nothing - countries with more relaxed laws and lighter penalties for crime tend to have less crime.
This conservative fantasy that outlawing drugs, lengthening sentences and making harsher laws against crime is the best way to fight it are not only bullshit, they have exactly the opposite effect . if it was true, the US would be the safest country in the world...and we all know the reality :rolleyes:.

And the US is primarily responsible for Latin America's gang problem - they deported thousands of gang members from the US to central America in the 80's, and they grew and spread throughout the region.

[MarxSchmarx]

And the US is primarily responsible for Latin America's gang problem - they deported thousands of gang members from the US to central America in the 80's, and they grew and spread throughout the region.

No kidding. I've heard that people in the El Salvadoran government have estimated that thousands of El Salvadoran citizens are trapped in mexico, because some US official misclassified them as either being Mexican or just deported them to the "country of last visitation" because it was too much trouble to confirm that they were in fact from El Salvador.

[Prometeo liberado]

This shallow article reminds me of the phrase "eat the rich", only now it is more like "let the poor eat themselves". Poverty can create a foul chef sometimes.

[Zostrianos]

Poverty can create a foul chef sometimes.

Poverty is the probably the greatest plague that was ever visited on this planet. Not only does it initially bring suffering to those destitute, it sets off a chain reaction that leads to rampant crime, corruption, and complete societal decay, which is what happened in Latin America (among many other places)- Poverty really is the root of all evil.

[Prometeo liberado]

Poverty is the probably the greatest plague that was ever visited on this planet. Not only does it initially bring suffering to those destitute, it sets off a chain reaction that leads to rampant crime, corruption, and complete societal decay, which is what happened in Latin America (among many other places)- Poverty really is the root of all evil.

I agree.
Lets not let this article obfuscate the issue. Poverty played a heavy hand in how the "gang members" came to be. And I'm sure it was poverty that payed a role in the frustration felt by the people who burned these kids alive. And at the end of the day all you have is a community with more questions than answers. Righteous anger from both victims directed at the wrong cause.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Reads a lot like the working class turning against their own. Using the "gang member" tag is not much different than the "terrorist" tag. Is horrible torture and death at the hands of the jury the new face of justice? This is neither right nor wrong, but the ugly byproduct of a system that can not even pretend to care.
The gangs in Mexico (i.e. the zetas) have been waging a war of terror on the common people. They own most of the government and I would not consider them working class. A group of thugs that are raping and killing the Mexican people (for drug profits) need to fought.

[Misanthrope]

They detained 20 something people for this? That's bullshit! Why do police punish those that defend themselves? Serve and protect my ass. More like, maintain hierarchy and "order".

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Reads a lot like the working class turning against their own. Using the "gang member" tag is not much different than the "terrorist" tag. Is horrible torture and death at the hands of the jury the new face of justice? This is neither right nor wrong, but the ugly byproduct of a system that can not even pretend to care.
Wow, do you use that same logic when it comes to fascists? Well hey those fascists are working class, won't confront them about that. Wouldn't want to divide the working class...

It doesn't matter if you're "working class"(I put quotes around it because I could hardly call them working class. When I was in a gang the way you got money was not to sell your labor in the market but to extort people, sell drugs or other shit, steal stuff and sell it, etc.) or not, if you're going to kidnap a group of school kids and hold them for ransom I hope you get lynched by the townspeople like these dumbasses did. Maybe you'll think twice about kidnapping little kids after your ass gets lit on fire.

Kidnap your boss, not the children.

[black magick hustla]

:shrugs: silly to condemn or praise. mexico is imbued in barbarism and sometimes shit like this happens because of the inability of capital and institutions to manage social decomposition and poverty. as someone that has lived in one of the most dangerous cities down there, i understand perfectly the sentiment. the gangs have made it pretty intolerable place to live. a lot of people in this gangs are poor teenagers and came out from the worst shitholes and hells and i feel ultimately bad for them but if any of those fuckers get near me or my family and friends and i had the means to deadly force, i would feel compelled to put a bullet through their skulls.

[MarxSchmarx]

The gangs in Mexico (i.e. the zetas) have been waging a war of terror on the common people. They own most of the government and I would not consider them working class. A group of thugs that are raping and killing the Mexican people (for drug profits) need to fought.

Speaking of which, the zetas got their start as an elite military unit trained by Uncle Sam. Their commando style operations and careful recruitment approaches are notoriously reminiscent of special forces practices. It's a significant reason why they've surpassed the traditional cartels and have managed to survive Calderon's assault.

[Prometeo liberado]

Wow, do you use that same logic when it comes to fascists? Well hey those fascists are working class, won't confront them about that. Wouldn't want to divide the working class...

It doesn't matter if you're "working class"(I put quotes around it because I could hardly call them working class. When I was in a gang the way you got money was not to sell your labor in the market but to extort people, sell drugs or other shit, steal stuff and sell it, etc.) or not, if you're going to kidnap a group of school kids and hold them for ransom I hope you get lynched by the townspeople like these dumbasses did. Maybe you'll think twice about kidnapping little kids after your ass gets lit on fire.

Kidnap your boss, not the children.

These kids that were set afire were just that,kids. With mother and fathers. Whose only mistake was to believe that fame and fortune promised them by the drug barons, the real gangsters, was real.
These kids were convicted and sentenced by passerby's on the street. No crime has ever been shown to have happened. The very word gang invokes hate and violence. Apparently a word is all you need to kill off your own.

[Franz Fanonipants]

you guys are fucking naive

most of the violence committed in mexico is from what i understand committed by the army/federal police

[MarxSchmarx]

you guys are fucking naive

most of the violence committed in mexico is from what i understand committed by the army/federal police

Well, let's restrict ourselves just to murders.

Most Mexican federal police and soldiers are from somewhere else. So in a given mexican municipality the vast majority of soldiers/federal cops are likely from another state.

So if soldiers/federales in any given town are basically just a random sample of scumbags from anywhere in the republic, this means that any town is likely to have as high a rate of murder as any other town in the presence of the military.

The problem is that this is not the case. Border towns, which have notoriously violent gangs, are particularly susceptible to high rates of murder. Of course, the rates of murders are high in the south, for example, where the military presence is significant compared to where the military presence is not. But the murder rates in the north are much, much worse and the disparity between north-south in murder rates far exceeds the intra-south disparity in murder rates between towns with and without a military presence.

Let me make this concrete. In the Yucatan and Chiapas, many cities have large military bases, and this likely results in higher murder rates for such cities than cities without bases. But, the murder rate of those cities are still lower than the murder rates of Ciudad Juarez or Tijuana, and many cities in the north have higher murder rates than those in the south with a strong military presence.

When one includes rapes and larceny perhaps the share of the federales increases. But I wouldn't be so sure, considering how much of the local violence goes unreported.

Of course, I think it is very likely the military exacerbates the problem already present in the northern cities. And yes, the military is often a source of the problem. But I think it the point is that for many northerners they are inclined to blame the military presence as such, when the example of other areas of mexico show that as bad as the military is, there is something that is basically local that is the cause for the substantial effect of the military that is not seen in places like the Yucatan that have a strong military presence.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Of course, I think it is very likely the military exacerbates the problem already present in the northern cities. And yes, the military is often a source of the problem. But I think it the point is that for many northerners they are inclined to blame the military presence as such, when the example of other areas of mexico show that as bad as the military is, there is something that is basically local that is the cause for the substantial effect of the military that is not seen in places like the Yucatan that have a strong military presence.

its interesting that you bring this up as my closest points of contact on the violence are in Juarez, Chihuahua, and Durango.

all of which obvs. make me conclude that military presence is the problem.

[GoddessCleoLover]

The military presence is a problem, but there is a genuine war occurring between the Gulf cartel and the Zetas, too.

[Franz Fanonipants]

The military presence is a problem, but there is a genuine war occurring between the Gulf cartel and the Zetas, too.

many of whom are former or current military or federal police

[GoddessCleoLover]

True that. Military and personnel are openly recruited to join the narcotics trafficking gangs.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

These kids that were set afire were just that,kids.Do we even know their age?
With mother and fathers.Good God, those people had mothers and fathers. And for some reason that doesn't make me care one single bit. But thanks for pointing out the obvious, these people were born, that doesn't make me a bit more sympathetic at all. But please school me in your morals of how these were just poor kids with families who got lynched by the mean mob.

Whose only mistake was to believe that fame and fortune promised them by the drug barons, the real gangsters, was real.
You forgot the part where they tried to kidnap a bunch of kids.


These kids were convicted and sentenced by passerby's on the street. No crime has ever been shown to have happened.And what, you think them calling the police, getting them locked up, and getting them tried in court would have actually worked? :lol: You totally understand the Justice Department in Mexico. I highly doubt that would happen in the first place, the people of Mexico don't trust the police to actually side with them, this is the only type of justice they think will ever happen in this climate.


The very word gang invokes hate and violence. Apparently a word is all you need to kill off your own.
Well I believe that these kids were probably being kidnapped by these gangsters who got caught in the act. And again, they are not working class.

Your moralism falls on deaf ears. Is this how it should be? Of course not, capitalism created this clusterfuck but just because capitalism created a mass of impoverished people who try to get money through drugs, extortion, thievery, etc, does not mean I'm going to be somewhat sympathetic to them when they terrorize the working class and exploit them just like the State and capitalists would.

[MarxSchmarx]

Franz whatever:

How do you explain the wide disparity in violence between northern cities and basically every other region of Mexico with a military presence then? If the military was the main cause of violence we would expect every municipality with a substantial military presence to be suffering on a similar scale. But this is not the case.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I think the term "Lumpen Proletariat" is important here. If I recall correctly such is not a member of the working class as they as the "criminal class."

[gorillafuck]

you guys are fucking naive

most of the violence committed in mexico is from what i understand committed by the army/federal policethere is so much violence in mexico coming from gangs and the army and police that it's probably really difficult/pointless to quantify who does the most.


And what, you think them calling the police, getting them locked up, and getting them tried in court would have actually worked? :lol: You totally understand the Justice Department in Mexico. I highly doubt that would happen in the first place, the people of Mexico don't trust the police to actually side with them, this is the only type of justice they think will ever happen in this climate.what, you think that the mexican government doesn't meaningfully oppose gangs? they send the army through towns and cities hunting suspected gang members.

[Zostrianos]

I'm not sure about Mexico, but in Salvador and Guatemala the age range for gang members (MS13, MS18) is usually teens to early 20's according to a documentary I'd seen.

Many of the cops and army officials in Mexico are indeed corrupt. A few months ago prison guards freed some gang members and gave them guns for an afternoon so they could go and kill some rivals.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

These kids that were set afire were just that,kids. With mother and fathers. Whose only mistake was to believe that fame and fortune promised them by the drug barons, the real gangsters, was real.
So? They were willing to terrorize working class communities, and people in those communities have a right to defend themselves.

[Princess Luna]

Security officials in Mexico say three men have been killed by a mob for allegedly allegedly allegedly trying to kidnap a group of youths.
Local residents in Chalco, near Mexico City, beat the men, doused them with petrol and set them alight.
Police managed to save one of the three men from the mob, but he died later in hospital.
Kidnappings are common in Mexico, where criminal gangs make money by abducting people for ransom.
Police described how locals came across the suspects as they allegedly tried to abduct a group of school children.
According to State Prosecutor Alfredo Castillo, a group of six women incited the violence by shouting: "Justice, justice, they're kidnappers!".
The prosecutor described how residents rang the church bells and around 600 people gathered in the town's main square.
A group armed with bars, clubs and bottles surrounded the three suspects and dragged them to the square, where they set fire to them.
State officials said 23 people had been detained in connection with the lynching.
In a travel warning issued on Wednesday, the US State Department warned of the rising number of kidnappings and disappearances in Mexico.
Analysts say accurate figures for the number of kidnappings are hard to come by, as many abductions only last for hours or a few days, until the ransom is paid.
Most are never reported to the authorities for fear of reprisal from the criminal gangs who carried out the kidnapping.
This the worst part of lynchings, they rely on popular opinions and emotional, rather then empirical evidence

[bcbm]

many of whom are former or current military or federal police

iirc the zetas were special forces in the mexican army who were trained by the us army in counter insurgency tactics who then joined the gulf cartel and then branched out on their own, and a lot of the more grisly tactics being used in the drug war are basically right out of us counter-insurgency handbook.

[the last donut of the night]

but considering how Mexico (and other Latin American countries, especially Guatemala, El Salvador, Colombia, and Brazil) are practically controlled by savage gangs, who extort money from citizens and then, if they don't pay up, sometimes murder their entire families

hey don't offend our government like that

[the last donut of the night]

also, brazil isn't "practically controlled by savage gangs". the recent military operations in the favelas show that while gangs have lost the power they once have, the federal and local governments aren't too clean either: most of the rio police force is extremely corrupt and the same goes for most levels of government too. right now the federal gov'ts biggest worry is trying to evade the crisis by cutting the national budget and heavily investing in industrial development, hoping the national industries will be powerful enough to hold out the storm. problem is, the recession isn't really a storm in the sense that it won't pass. i think the best image is just quick-sand pit: the more you move, the deeper you sink.

[Prometeo liberado]

So? They were willing to terrorize working class communities, and people in those communities have a right to defend themselves.

OK one last time. Please tell me where in the article does it show, say, or prove that a crime had been committed? All that I read is that there were assumptions being made and as soon as possible the "gang" tag was thrown out there so that everyone had clean hands. No one is saying that there is not a major gang war going on in Mexico. I am extremely aware of this. What is being lost here is that based on this particular incident, given the facts, all that can be concluded here is that people jumped from assumptions to conclusions. Then a further leap to applause? Are our standards of justice lowered if those concerned don't speak like us or look like us? Torture is fine as long as it called justice? Sounds a lot like Bush 2. Maybe I just need more proof as it pertains to this particular incident but all that I can get out of it is torture and execution of questionably guilty people whitewashed using the "gang" tag.
This is all the evidence for the torture and execution that I could find in the "article":
Security officials in Mexico say three men have been killed by a mob for allegedly trying to kidnap a group of youths.
I will say that I was wrong to infer they the tortured and deceased were youths though.

[bcbm]

i dont know if it has been pointed out yet but a major reason an incident like this can happen is also that people have no faith at all in the judicial system because basically no one is ever punished for any crimes committed; the number of arrests per number of murders is some abysmal statistic, most of the time all that is done is the crime scene is documented and that is the end of the investigation. so in this sort of climate where the cartels and thug carry out their deeds with de facto impunity, i am surprised there is not more mob violence like this tbh

[Franz Fanonipants]

poimandres is a 19th century racist socialist

[X5N]

I tend to not approve of vigilante behavior. But my inner radical insurrectionist wants to yell "fuck yeah!"

[the last donut of the night]

i dont know if it has been pointed out yet but a major reason an incident like this can happen is also that people have no faith at all in the judicial system because basically no one is ever punished for any crimes committed; the number of arrests per number of murders is some abysmal statistic, most of the time all that is done is the crime scene is documented and that is the end of the investigation. so in this sort of climate where the cartels and thug carry out their deeds with de facto impunity, i am surprised there is not more mob violence like this tbh

in brazil only 4% of reported crimes are actually investigated to the fullest extent