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RadicalRed
11th February 2012, 20:38
Hello Comrades , i am new here and i am a Syrian Leftist living in Exile, I have found it very sad that some leftists are supporting Bashar Al Assad's dictatorial regime as you know i am from Homs and its a major working class and industrial city and many of my uncles worked in the factories there. Bashar al Assad father Hafez jailed and tortured and executed many Communists and leftists back in the 80's ( This was monitored by the U.S war on the left ) and Assad does the same. The Workers and Farmers and Syria are the invisible and Bashar Al Assad represents the "elite" . I know many support him because he is "Anti- Imperialist" just because he is Anti-Imperialist does not mean he is a friend of the people...

I found it very sad also that the Communist Party of Chile for example supported Bashar ...he is just like Pinochet...

I have called Homs many times and the situation is drastic...

the Workers and the poor of the Syria must have support.

Thank you ,

A Syrian Comrade

Jimmy Haddow (SPS)
11th February 2012, 22:22
http://www.socialistworld.net/img/Logo.pngSyria

Anti-regime protests facing ferocious response

www.socialistworld (http://www.<b>socialistworld</b>).net, 08/02/2012
website of the committee for a workers' international, CWI
No trust in Arab League and imperialist powers
Judy Beishon, Socialist Party (CWI in England and Wales)
http://www.socialistworld.net/img/20120208Grafik7185786558310045091.jpg
The Syrian regime has dramatically stepped up its savage military onslaught on civilians in Homs and other areas. Recent days have seen the worst upsurge in bloody repression since the start of the uprising last March. Reports indicate that local communities in towns and city suburbs have been shelled indiscriminately, with hundreds of people massacred in Homs. A number of areas have been under military siege, with accompanying cuts in power, water and other supplies.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2012-02-08Grafik1775092424649858872.jpg

The ‘concern’ for the plight of Syrian civilians by representatives of western imperialism and the Arab elites and their condemnation of Russia and China for refusing to demand the removal of the Syrian president is total hypocrisy. No similar concern is shown when atrocities against civilians are carried out by their own or allies’ military forces either at home or abroad, whether in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bahrain, Gaza or elsewhere.
Incredibly brave and tenacious, hundreds of thousands of people across Syria have been turning out time and time again to demonstrate, largely unarmed, knowing that some may be killed by snipers and others maimed or detained and tortured. While substantial areas of the two largest cities, Damascus and Aleppo, appear to be relatively stable, some of the suburbs have been among the areas where mass rallies have taken place. Over 7,000 civilians are estimated to have died so far, including hundreds of children. Reports have indicated that the injured can’t even go to hospitals for treatment, as they will be sought out there and detained or killed and that even activist groups that have renounced the use of arms or violence in any form are prime targets for the state’s murderers and torturers.
The Baathist regime of president Bashar al-Assad has overwhelming military advantage, but despite this, communities in revolt are running pockets of resistance scattered across the country. For instance the town Zabadani near the Lebanese border was said to have put up ferocious resistance to the state military forces and declared itself run solely by its own newly elected council. There was an uneasy temporary truce, with the town remaining surrounded by the Syrian army, but it has now again been bombarded by the army.
The government forces have been concentrating on trying to keep control of the third and fourth largest cities, Homs and Hama, and the eastern suburbs of the capital Damascus. But with indications that many areas are in open rebellion, the army can’t be everywhere at the same time; where it manages to retake control it may not be able to hold it when it decides to redeploy elsewhere.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2012-02-08Grafik5743438807864142881.jpg Opposition protest in Zabadani

Trying to protect the demonstrations and areas under siege is the growing number of army defectors and civilians who are joining local-based groups of the Free Syria Army. But this ad hoc force, remotely coordinated from a refugee camp in Turkey, is estimated to be only 10-20,000 strong at present and desperate for more arms and equipment. It is up against a state army of 500,000 (including reservists) which for now is mainly holding together. How long it will stay like this is highly questionable, especially as a majority of the rank and file are from the majority Sunni population, substantial sections of which have hostility to the minority Alawite-led regime.
Without convincing evidence, the government has accused foreign terrorists of perpetrating atrocities, while at the same time there are many reports that its own military forces have extensively employed elite fighters from abroad to do some of its worst deeds that it dare not trust to the army rank and file. For example, Mahmood Haj Hamad, a high ranking defector from the defence ministry, claimed that a slush fund existed for the regime to pay thousands of streetfighters from Iran and Hezbollah in Lebanon as well as the Shabiha paramilitary gangs who spearhead some of the torture and killing sprees.
Weakening base

The shocking brutality of the regime’s forces reveals its fundamental weakness; it is struggling to maintain its social base and so is trying to crush all opposition through inflicting sheer terror. But 11 months into this strategy it is failing to subdue the uprising, and escalating its offensive will fuel even greater anger. Conversely, as the opposition is also unable at present to gain the upper hand, a stalemate situation is enduring.
Thirty years ago Assad’s father presided over the slaughter of tens of thousands of Sunnis in Hama to crush a rebellion, but the scale of the opposition movement now is greater and more entrenched. The Baathist regime can no longer rely on its social provisions of the past – free health care, education, subsidised food – to give it a secure support base. These workers’ gains have been eroded and high poverty and unemployment have become endemic, to become the driving force of the hatred of a layer of the population towards the corrupt ruling elite today.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2012-02-08Grafik2900045954270597778.jpg

During a visit to Damascus this week by Russia’s foreign minister, Assad once again paid lip-service to wanting ‘dialogue’ with the opposition and democratic reforms such as a new constitution, but few people believe that he will deliver anything significant and meanwhile the vicious military crackdown goes on.
Although events could develop very rapidly towards a head, it is also possible that the struggle could continue to be of a prolonged nature, with even worse onslaughts by the government to come, until a tipping point is eventually reached in favour of the opposition movement or the ruling elite itself decides to remove Assad. Fearing how far the revolutionary movement could go, those around Assad could engineer his exit in order to try to preserve their vast wealth and privileges and the state institutions that protect them, including the army and police. They also fear the ever deeper crisis that the economy is descending into, due to the world economic crisis but worsened by sanctions from western imperialism and the Arab League, a nosedive in tourism, the diversion of public money to the military and a loss of tax revenues due to the uprising. As a result there are workplace lay-offs and closures, fuel shortages, rising prices and the currency is plunging.
Since the start of the Arab Spring, most in the elite and a significant layer of the population (including many Sunni business owners) have clung to Assad’s continued rule in the belief that he offers the best chance of stability. But when this belief evaporates, support could be withdrawn very quickly, as was seen in the case of Gaddafi in Libya when Tripoli fell out of his hands.
Syria’s former ambassador to Sweden fled to Turkey in December and denounced Assad’s regime, saying that many inside the Syrian government secretly wanted Assad to fall: “People even high up aren’t loyal to the government but …. They are scared for their lives and families”, and regarding the military: “Many officers would like to defect but there’s nowhere safe to go”.
http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2012-02-08Grafik4721104728295147055.jpg Syrian army defectors
The limited result for ordinary people that a transfer of power within the elite would be, can be seen in Egypt and Tunisia. The exact composition of those at the helm was changed, but the capitalist system with its massive chasm between the rich and the poor remained in place.
International response

That the 22 country Arab League and also neighbouring Turkey - Syria’s biggest trading partner – demanded that Assad should go, was a major blow to the Syrian regime. Assad’s only firm ally in the region is Iran, and to a lessor extent Iraq and Lebanon. Regarding global support, in the UN security council Russia and China refused to support a resolution demanding that he quits, in keeping with their competition with western powers for spheres of influence and unease about the possible consequences for their interests post-Assad.
The Russian ruling class has particularly close links with the Syrian Alawite-dominated elite, including major investments in Syria and arms deals - $4 billion of fighter jets and missiles were recently sold to Syria. Russia’s only naval base outside the former Soviet Union is at the Syrian port Tartus, a foothold in the Middle East it doesn’t want to lose. The protective attitude of the Russian leaders towards the Syrian elite (not especially to Assad himself) stems from these connections.
With the failure of the UN resolution, a ‘Friends of Syria’ grouping is now being cobbled together to pursue the interests of the world powers that want to see Assad removed. The Arab League pulled out its temporary 165 observers from Syria during the last weekend of January, after predictably failing to stop the bloodshed. The hypocrisy of this tokenism by the super-rich Arab autocracies was shown in their appointment of Sudanese general Mustafa al-Dabi to head the mission. Dabi used to be the military intelligence chief of Sudan’s president Omar al-Bashir while genocide and other crimes were being committed in Darfur.
What foreign interventions will be tried next? In Libya it was propaganda about a possible massacre by Gaddafi’s forces in Benghazi that gave Nato the excuse to intervene militarily (mainly airforce) on the side of the opposition. Some left political organisations internationally made the mistake of welcoming that intervention. The CWI on the other hand pointed out that there wouldn’t necessarily be less civilian bloodshed as a result of it and that its aim was not to protect civilians but to achieve an outcome to the conflict favourable to western imperialism. That position was proved correct. There was reason to believe that Gaddafi’s forces would not have been able to carry out a massacre in Benghazi, but there were atrocities subsequently committed by the opposition forces in many areas of Libya, as well as by those of Gaddafi. As Seamus Milne put it in the UK Guardian (8.2.12), as well as an increased death toll, the legacy of foreign intervention in Libya was: “mass ethnic cleansing, torture and detention without trial, continuing armed conflict, and a western-orchestrated administration so unaccountable it resisted revealing its members’ names”. And the intervention was used to open the door to further foreign exploitation of the country’s productive and natural resources.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2012-02-08Grafik4094804131592819582.jpg

Now the western media is echoing desperate pleas from Syrian civilians for foreign intervention to protect them. However, while billions of ordinary people across the globe are completely genuine in their concern and desire to support any meaningful assistance that can be given to Syrians who are being slaughtered, the motives and interests of the Arab elites and imperialist ruling classes are entirely different. They view the situation from the standpoint of their own influence and wealth, so any intervention would be in their own class interests and not those of the Syrians being butchered. Which imperialist power does not have more blood on its hands than even Bashar al-Assad when you look at what has happened in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and so many other ‘interventions’? The chief crime of the Syrian regime in the eyes of western imperialism and its allies is not its brutality, but its alliance with their enemy state Iran.
In any case, foreign military intervention is fraught with great difficulties for the regional and world powers. Ground troops, after the experiences of Iraq and Afghanistan and with the complexities of the situation in Syria are not seen as an option. Bombardment from the air, or even just enforcement of a no-fly zone, would be much harder than it was in Libya, because of the dissipated nature of the opposition, the more varied terrain, the relatively sophisticated anti-aircraft defences in Syria, not to mention the vociferous opposition of Russia, China and Iran and the possible consequences in the wider region.
The most that may perhaps be considered in the short term is protection/buffer zones near the Turkish border to contain the flow of refugees, enforced by Turkey’s military forces, or on the border with Jordan. Also some governments are intent on sending covert funding and arms to the Syrian opposition organisations that they are trying to influence. These include Qatar and Saudi Arabia where the elites are keen to counter the Iran-Syria-Hezbollah axis and where pressure has built up from below to aid the Sunni majority in Syria. The hypocrisy of these elites knows no bounds when the absence of democracy in their own countries is looked at!

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2012-02-08Grafik5003869714099111030.jpg

But this doesn’t mean that other regional and world powers will not be drawn into the conflict in a more direct way militarily. They are under huge pressure to be seen to be doing something – especially countries with Syrian émigré populations – and they don’t want to cede influence to their competitors. And things do not always go to plan, crises can escalate unexpectedly; with the volatility in the region a devastating war situation could develop and draw in interventions previously not contemplated.
Workers’ movement

After decades of repressive dictatorship and suppression of opposition political parties and genuine trade unions, workers in Syria have had to enter into struggle without having their own independent organisations. The activists and supporters of the uprising are demanding freedom from corrupt and despotic rule, but underlying the discontent in Syria and across the Arab world are the material issues of high unemployment, increased poverty, poor housing etc - byproducts of capitalist economic crisis and neoliberal policies.
‘Change’ is demanded by the two main opposition political umbrella organisations that have been formed, the Syrian National Council and the National Coordination Body, but they are broad bodies that are rife with division and that want to preserve existing state institutions including the military. They don’t have a programme and strategy that can unify and develop the opposition movement on the ground. They call for a more equitable (capitalist) society, whereas only a call for a democratic socialist society could unite all sections of workers around a programme for full employment, well funded services, decent homes and other necessities.
Although it will be a huge relief to a layer of the Syrian working class and middle class when Assad is eventually forced out and the savagery of the crackdown ends, it won’t be enough if another big business led government assumes the reins of power, as workers in Tunisia and Egypt are now discovering following the overthrow of their autocratic presidents. The viewpoint is different for the sections of Syrian society that don’t want to see the fall of Assad, partly out of fear that there will a wave of discrimination against certain minorites or a terrible civil war.
Without a new workers’ formation being built that adopts a programme showing a clear way forward on the basis of workers’ unity, the dangers of sectarian division in Syria are potentially great, and are already apparent in areas where the government appears to have deliberately provoked them. The worst clashes of this nature have been in Homs, where there have been reports of pro-Assad forces giving arms to Alawite communities to use against others, and encouraging kidnappings and killings that foster division and cut across united struggle against the regime.
With the complex make-up of Syria’s population – a Sunni majority alongside Christian, Alawite, Druze, Shia, Kurdish and other minority ethnic or religious sections – a programme that advances the interests of all working people and guarantees full democratic rights for minorities is essential.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2012-02-08Grafik3328937999085514687.jpg

Democratically run workers’ defence committees urgently need to be built in every community and workplace, with the right to distribute arms. Alongside these, workers’ committees are needed that can organise and link together regionally and nationally to build a mass revolutionary movement capable of reaching its goals. This means preparing for and developing an escalating programme of general strikes, occupations, and other actions.
It is important for the movement to firmly reject any imperialist intervention or interference. It needs to appeal to rank and file Syrian army soldiers with a socialist programme for public ownership and workers’ control and management of the key industries, that would inspire them to join the side of the revolution, as the Bolsheviks did in Russia in 1917.
Heroic though the fighters defending Homs and other areas are, the Free Syria Army may become a tool of a replacement group of pro-capitalist ‘leaders’ as happened to the opposition militias in Libya, unless they organise democratically as part of a mass independent workers’ movement that mobilises the full power of the working class and poor.



http://www.socialistworld.net/img/Logo.pngCommittee for a Workers' International
PO Box 3688, London E11 1YE, Britain, Tel: ++ 44 20 8988 8760, Fax: ++ 44 20 8988 8793, [email protected]

manic expression
11th February 2012, 22:33
I think your concerns are most valid and I hope to explain my own views with the requisite seriousness and accuracy that your contribution deserves.

I think that the claim of "support" must be handled far more carefully. The anti-imperialist argument is that while the Syrian government must indeed be opposed and fought by working-class forces, it is only right that we reserve our support for working-class forces in this task. If, as the case may very well be in Syria today, the opposition leadership is neither working-class nor progressive, and wishes to ally itself with imperialism, then we cannot so cheaply lend our support to that which deserves none.

In addition, I think it is being argued that the interests of the Syrian workers are served by imperialism not being in control of the country. I think all communists have to confront these issues from the conditions they face in their own communities, and so communists in the US, for example, are extremely aware that when leftist voices condemn governments that the bourgeoisie dislikes, it is simply one more war drum being beaten amongst many. Leftists in imperialist countries must voice opposition to imperialist meddling in Syria first and foremost...that doesn't mean they support Assad or his policies, it simply means demanding that Syria not be put in imperialism's crosshairs.

Sir Comradical
11th February 2012, 22:56
I think that the claim of "support" must be handled far more carefully. The anti-imperialist argument is that while the Syrian government must indeed be opposed and fought by working-class forces, it is only right that we reserve our support for working-class forces in this task. If, as the case may very well be in Syria today, the opposition leadership is neither working-class nor progressive, and wishes to ally itself with imperialism, then we cannot so cheaply lend our support to that which deserves none.

Yes! If the FSA was a proletarian army then there's no way it would receive the support it's getting from the imperialists, instead the US would probably be calling for stability in Syria because from the standpoint of imperialism, a somewhat uncompromising bourgeois regime is better than the establishment of a workers' state in the Arab world.

It's very much possible for third-world bourgeois regimes to be both anti-proletariat and anti-imperialist. The capitalist class of Syria refuses to fully submit to the diktats of US imperialism the way their counterparts in neighbouring countries have and this is what leaves them open to attack either directly by imperialism, or indirectly by the proxies of imperialism. In this case the Free Syrian Army is based in Turkey (a NATO power) and has the support of the Gulf monarchies and the US.

The lesson to be learnt from the Libyan intervention is that this is a part of a plan to destabilise Syria. Should the Syrian government fall, there will be US military bases in Damascus and Iran will be even more isolated. The ICL's position on Libya which I agreed with, supported the military defense of Libya while offerring no support for the Gaddafi regime. I think a similar stance is called for here.

Per Levy
11th February 2012, 23:57
@maniac: didnt you posted in another thread that the national bourgeoisie in countries like syria and iran is progressive and that in both these countries there is no working class movement therefore communists should take sides and support these states against the west?

manic expression
12th February 2012, 00:00
What I was trying to say there was that the governments of such countries are reactionary in their relation to the working classes, but progressive in relation to imperialism. In the event that there is no genuine working-class opposition, and in the event that Syria is faced with imperialist aggression, Syrian sovereignty itself becomes the object of leftist support and imperialism the object of opposition.

GoddessCleoLover
12th February 2012, 00:06
I agree with our Syrian comrade, Radical Red, that we ought to condemn Bashar al-Assad as a murderer of his own people.

Vyacheslav Brolotov
12th February 2012, 00:44
I understand the suffering of the Syrian people, but I know for a fact that Marxist Leninists do not support the Assad government, but we find it hard to trust a revolutionary movement that is so keen on getting help from imperialist forces. True revolutionaries dont go on CNN and cry out for help from Europe and the US, they kill as many generals as they can find! We dont want the Syrian uprising to become an imperialist affair, but we are excited that at least one contradiction in Syria --oppression-- is being fought against, opening the door for the next contradiction to be overcome --class struggle. But when it comes to this Syrian uprising being called a revolution, MLs dont really consider it a respectable revolution. the lives of syrian workers are not going to change that much after Assad steps; its just goin to be a different, more oppresive regime, and the class oppression is still goin to be the same. But if thats what the syrian people want, whatever, just dont make it an imperialist affair!

Crux
12th February 2012, 06:30
I understand the suffering of the Syrian people, but I know for a fact that Marxist Leninists do not support the Assad government, but we find it hard to trust a revolutionary movement that is so keen on getting help from imperialist forces. True revolutionaries dont go on CNN and cry out for help from Europe and the US, they kill as many generals as they can find! We dont want the Syrian uprising to become an imperialist affair, but we are excited that at least one contradiction in Syria --oppression-- is being fought against, opening the door for the next contradiction to be overcome --class struggle. But when it comes to this Syrian uprising being called a revolution, MLs dont really consider it a respectable revolution. the lives of syrian workers are not going to change that much after Assad steps; its just goin to be a different, more oppresive regime, and the class oppression is still goin to be the same. But if thats what the syrian people want, whatever, just dont make it an imperialist affair!

One last thing I have to say, how do leftists know that the new government that the oppostion wants to create wont be even less progressive than the Assad government. What if they create a new islamic republic through elections that will be much more repressive than the pretty liberal Ba'athists?
So basically you oppose a popular uprising because you worry the end result will be worse than the present regime? Yet you say you do not support the Assad regime? Interesting. And certainly there are ML's that openly support the regime.

Mather
12th February 2012, 06:42
Interesting. And certainly there are ML's that openly support the regime.


Indeed there are.

The stalinist CPGB-ML are one good example in Britain: http://www.cpgb-ml.org/index.php?secName=proletarian&subName=display&art=796

Ocean Seal
12th February 2012, 19:16
I will argue the following. Working class movements do exist in the third world and achieving class dictatorship is a more important goal that preserving "anti-imperialist" regimes. And certainly if there were a working class opposition in Syria we should support it regardless of whether or not we feared that it would be co-opted by the imperialists.

However, the idea is that if a regime is destabilized by elements which are not working class elements, and is already a faction of the comprador classes interests. Then we must know that it will retard the interests of the working classes. Not only because it supports imperialism which seems to be an abstract perspective, but because objectively comprador capitalism does not lead to the development of a working class movement unlike a national bourgeoisie movement.

Yehuda Stern
12th February 2012, 19:36
objectively comprador capitalism does not lead to the development of a working class movement unlike a national bourgeoisie movement.

Do you realize how much this flies in the face of reality? Do you not know that the countries in which the working class movement became the strongest and was most successful in its struggles in recent months are Tunisia and Egypt, "comrador capitalist" states, whereas in countries like Syria, these movements have been beaten down and co-opted by reactionaries?

I don't see any real difference between the two "types" of capitalist states. But if there was one, it would certainly not be in favor of states like Syria.

Vyacheslav Brolotov
12th February 2012, 19:46
To clear things up, there are only certain ML tendencies (mainly Stalinists) who support some aspects of the Assad government (especially its anti-imperialism). The thing with Marxist Leninists is that we have very differing opinions among differing tendencies, yet most of us maintain that, due to the scientific steps society must take to acheive communism, these Arab revolutions still help society a lot. They take the burden of opression off of the back of Arab society and allow class antagonizism to come center stage. We Marxist-Leninists do not base our opinions on emotions, such as revolutionary romanticism, but logic. As long as this uprising does not become an imperialist's playground, othodox MLs will continue to stay on the fence and not support either the Assad government or the opposition, but the ideas of revolution and contradition themselves.

Vyacheslav Brolotov
12th February 2012, 19:58
that last little paragraph in my post talking about the dangers of a new islamic republic was just a little useless rant i added in for no reason. I am sorry that I confused so many people with that large contradiction supporting revolution and the benefits of the Assad government at the same time. yet, I am still on the fence when it comes to the merits of the Syrian opposition.

Crux
12th February 2012, 21:41
Because the two-stage theory worked so well for the menshevikii.

Vyacheslav Brolotov
12th February 2012, 22:11
Because the two-stage theory worked so well for the menshevikii.
If you are talking to me, I think you are mistaken. The two stage theory is not a Menshevik ideal, but a core ideal of Marxism-Leninism and even Maoism. Ever heard of Maoist New Democracy? Just because there were radical stagist in the Menshevik party, that does not mean that Lenin did not agree with the two-stage theory. He just said that the proletariat in Russia could not wait for slow bourgeois progress and lose their momentum. Yet, he was only talking about one stage revolution in the circumstance of the Russian Revolution. Every revolution is different, especially in a post Marxist-Leninist world.

Let me just repeat that: EVERY REVOLUTION IS DIFFERENT.
Let's see what the Original Comrade has to say about that . . .

"[Mikhailovsky] feels he absolutely must metamorphose my historical sketch of the genesis of capitalism in Western Europe into a historico-philosophic theory of the general path every people is fated to tread, whatever the historical circumstances in which it finds itself ... but I beg his pardon."
Karl Mark

So please, do not insult my intelligence. I am and never will be a Menshevik.

Crux
13th February 2012, 01:44
If you are talking to me, I think you are mistaken. The two stage theory is not a Menshevik ideal, but a core ideal of Marxism-Leninism and even Maoism. Ever heard of Maoist New Democracy?
My point exactly.


Just because there were radical stagist in the Menshevik party, that does not mean that Lenin did not agree with the two-stage theory. He just said that the proletariat in Russia could not wait for slow bourgeois progress and lose their momentum. Yet, he was only talking about one stage revolution in the circumstance of the Russian Revolution. Every revolution is different, especially in a post Marxist-Leninist world.

Let me just repeat that: EVERY REVOLUTION IS DIFFERENT.
Let's see what the Original Comrade has to say about that . . .

"[Mikhailovsky] feels he absolutely must metamorphose my historical sketch of the genesis of capitalism in Western Europe into a historico-philosophic theory of the general path every people is fated to tread, whatever the historical circumstances in which it finds itself ... but I beg his pardon."
Karl Mark

So please, do not insult my intelligence. I am and never will be a Menshevik.
Indeed. And stagism still lands you in a political cul de sac. In syria very much so as it seems to land you either in a support of a mere "democratic revolution" or varying degrees of support for the regime, painting it as anti-imperialism to wait for class-struggle to somehow appear.

X5N
13th February 2012, 01:48
Just like with Qaddafi, a lot of leftists support Assad because "imperialism." It's very misguided and stupid, in my opinion.

manic expression
13th February 2012, 01:48
whereas in countries like Syria, these movements have been beaten down and co-opted by reactionaries?
Are you suggesting that the Syrian opposition's leadership being pro-imperialist...is the fault of the Syrian government?

manic expression
13th February 2012, 01:55
Because the two-stage theory worked so well for the menshevikii.
So tell me, seeing as the Syrian opposition has no socialist leadership (much less communist leadership), and shows neither the desire nor the capacity to establish working-class rule in Syria should it be successful...how is that possibly a one-stage plan?

Seth
13th February 2012, 02:14
I don't know why approaching Syria in the same way we approached World War I isn't discussed more. Really, our choices are a Baathist gangster clique or a coalition of Otpor-style western quislings and islamists. Our duty here is to back the working class and its attempts at organization independently from any ruling class or block of a ruling class.

The problem is, any ideas, encouragement, direction, or advice we can give to the workers is drowned out by the global ruling classes preaching either dead end liberalism or submission to Assad.

Crux
13th February 2012, 02:14
So tell me, seeing as the Syrian opposition has no socialist leadership (much less communist leadership), and shows neither the desire nor the capacity to establish working-class rule in Syria should it be successful...how is that possibly a one-stage plan?
I think the article above, posted by Jimmy Haddow, makes it quite clear what our perspective is.

manic expression
13th February 2012, 02:19
I think the article above, posted by Jimmy Haddow, makes it quite clear what our perspective is.
Ah, so you have a two-stage theory when it comes to responses, too. :D

The article's approach on this is "we really hope a working-class revolution without any imperialist interference results from this" without even vaguely grappling with how remote that possibility is with the present leadership. In fact, the article even notes the rightist nature of the opposition but can't bring itself to draw the simple conclusion from this plain fact. The analysis seems to be mostly wishful thinking. Like it or not, if you support the opposition you're promoting at best a two-stage plan, if not a potential step backwards.

Crux
13th February 2012, 02:51
Ah, so you have a two-stage theory when it comes to responses, too. :D

The article's approach on this is "we really hope a working-class revolution without any imperialist interference results from this" without even vaguely grappling with how remote that possibility is with the present leadership. In fact, the article even notes the rightist nature of the opposition but can't bring itself to draw the simple conclusion from this plain fact. The analysis seems to be mostly wishful thinking. Like it or not, if you support the opposition you're promoting at best a two-stage plan, if not a potential step backwards.
I would be interested to see what the OP has to say to you.

Yehuda Stern
13th February 2012, 15:02
Are you suggesting that the Syrian opposition's leadership being pro-imperialist...is the fault of the Syrian government?

I am suggesting that RedBrother's assertion that "bourgeois nationalist" regimes allow for stronger working class movements to evolve is utter nonsense and flies in the face of reality. I have said as much in my post.

A Revolutionary Tool
13th February 2012, 18:27
As I said in the other thread, since when did it become the jobs of the communists to support the national bourgeoisie against the international bourgeoisie? It's like anti-imperialism is more important than anti-capitalism. But there is no genuine worker opposition to imperialism? Why don't you just vote for Ron Paul then considering there is not a genuine worker opposition to imperialism based on anti-capitalism in America?

Yehuda Stern
13th February 2012, 18:35
As I said in the other thread, since when did it become the jobs of the communists to support the national bourgeoisie against the international bourgeoisie? It's like anti-imperialism is more important than anti-capitalism.

It is the job of communists to defend oppressed countries against imperialist crisis. This isn't because anti-imperialism is more important than anti-capitalism, but because it is an integral part of it.

Sinister Cultural Marxist
13th February 2012, 18:37
It is the job of communists to defend oppressed countries against imperialist crisis. This isn't because anti-imperialism is more important than anti-capitalism, but because it is an integral part of it.

The defense of oppressed countries, though, presumably happens in the form of protecting the working class both against their nationalist bourgeois exploiters, and the Imperialist bourgeois exploiters coming out of our own countries, and not one exclusively to the other ...

Yehuda Stern
13th February 2012, 18:39
In a way, yes, but revolutionaries in those oppressed countries would still fight alongside bourgeois forces against imperialism.

A Revolutionary Tool
13th February 2012, 19:12
It is the job of communists to defend oppressed countries against imperialist crisis.
Oppressed countries? What is this nonsense? We can't speak in such general terms as a "oppressed country", elements within the country will be oppressed while others will not be oppressed. That is the type of terminology you get when you replace the class struggle with some bourgeois shit.


This isn't because anti-imperialism is more important than anti-capitalism, but because it is an integral part of it.
Yet we constantly see the defense of capitalist regimes on the basis of anti-imperialism...
First and foremost should be the anti-capitalist struggle, not the anti-imperialist struggle.


In a way, yes, but revolutionaries in those oppressed countries would still fight alongside bourgeois forces against imperialism.
Marxists should not be fighting alongside the bourgeois forces against imperialism but leading them. We have seen over and over again what comes about when the anti-imperialist bourgeois elements lead the working class in the struggle against imperialism. You get a place like Syria or Iran that, as you admit yourself, does not mean a genuine worker's opposition will appear even though it is "anti-imperialist". It appears a lot more difficult too as communists and anarchists get arrested, tortured, and killed.

Yehuda Stern
14th February 2012, 11:18
Oppressed countries is a term for the non-imperialist countries. More standard is the term "third world countries", which I dislike for certain reasons. I think the terminology is correct: even though the ruling class of these countries exploits the working class and oppresses women, national minorities etc., these countries are oppressed as a whole by imperialism, which has the power to dictate how they run themselves, and in most cases, actually reinforces the existing oppressive regimes.

I agree with you that revolutionaries must struggle for leadership of the anti-imperialist struggle, and must never give political support to bourgeois forces. But when imperialism attacks a non-imperialist countries, revolutionaries cannot remain neutral, for that basically means supporting the imperialist status quo. They must energetically join the anti-imperialist fight, while all the time warning the workers that the bourgeois forces will always vacillate in this struggle, and that they must take power themselves.

manic expression
14th February 2012, 18:03
I am suggesting that RedBrother's assertion that "bourgeois nationalist" regimes allow for stronger working class movements to evolve is utter nonsense and flies in the face of reality. I have said as much in my post.
I would concede that it is not a universal rule, but I think the experiences of Iraq and Afghanistan from the 70's onward supports the assertion in question. The ability for leftists to organize was greatly hindered by imperialism's subjugation of the countries (the destruction of the PDPA in Afghanistan and the murder of communists on the ascension of Saddam, both backed and even carried out by US imperialists), while the defeat of imperialist allies in a country like South Africa greatly promoted a stronger leftist presence.

I do, though, completely agree with your two most recent posts, very well said on both counts.

The Cheshire Cat
14th February 2012, 20:34
I have a couple questions regarding the Syria conlflict right now...

1. How is it possible that unarmed civilians utterly destroy tanks?
2. How is it possible that unarmed civilians killed nearly 3000 cops and soldiers?
3. Why do many witnesses speak of armed gangs vs. soldiers while the news channels speak about soldiers vs. unarmed civilians?
4. Why does the taliban support the Syrian 'uprising'?
5. What about the hundreds of thousands Syrians supporting Assad?
etc.

I have a couple of more questions but I might ask them later. I do not mean anything with these questions, I would just like an explanation.

P.S.
I have a far relative living in Syria (I never spoke with him, but my father does) and he says the area where he is living in is calm. But he does not live in Homs or near there. So are there only fights in Homs and surroundings?

Yehuda Stern
14th February 2012, 20:55
Manic Expression: Giving a few examples does little to support your case. Like I said in my original post, there are many current and relevant counterexamples. As far as evidence goes, right now it seems that working class movements can organize just as effectively under "comprador" regimes* as with "nationalist" regimes.

*I must say that these are still very vague definitions. Mubarak's regime was certainly nationalist, and Assad certainly collaborated with Russian imperialism.

Yehuda Stern
14th February 2012, 20:56
I do not mean anything with these questions, I would just like an explanation.

Sure you don't, especially with those sarcastic commas around "uprising"...

The Cheshire Cat
14th February 2012, 21:02
Sure you don't, especially with those sarcastic commas around "uprising"...

I added the comma's because I am not sure wheter it is an uprising or that it is the same story as in Libya. I did not want to take to much time explaining it so I added comma's. I thought most people would understand it, but apparently not, I'm sorry, my bad.

I do think though it would have been more useful if you answered my questions if you wanted to show your opinion, rather than criticising my writing habits.

Threetune
14th February 2012, 21:05
Yehuda, what’s you point?

manic expression
14th February 2012, 21:06
Manic Expression: Giving a few examples does little to support your case. Like I said in my original post, there are many current and relevant counterexamples. As far as evidence goes, right now it seems that working class movements can organize just as effectively under "comprador" regimes* as with "nationalist" regimes.
Like I said, it's not a universal rule, but the general trend is for working-class organization to decline with the entry of imperialism. Sure there may be counterexamples but I feel they're exceptions that essentially prove the rule.


*I must say that these are still very vague definitions. Mubarak's regime was certainly nationalist, and Assad certainly collaborated with Russian imperialism.
Most every anti-imperialist opposed Mubarak's regime and supported the revolution against him, so that's out. Assad has worked with Russia but no one can possibly argue that he's indebted to them for his position; it's similar to how Gaddafi worked with the UK but wasn't an imperialist client because of it.

Yehuda Stern
15th February 2012, 11:22
ME: You can "feel" all you want, but the fact is, all you have shown is that, at best, both scenarios (workers organizing under "comprador" vs. "nationalist" regimes) are just as likely.

manic expression
15th February 2012, 13:15
OK, good, then let me say that I also feel that you're not taking into account the most relevant recent examples, a feeling that happens to be true.

Yehuda Stern
15th February 2012, 14:26
But the most relevant recent examples are those of Egypt and Tunisia vs. Syria and Iran, where so-called "comprador" regimes were toppled much more easily than the supposedly "nationalist" regimes.