i went to a strip club the other day

[ed miliband]

my friend made me as part of a birthday "treat" and he paid for all my drinks and a "dance"

i spent the "dance" chatting to the stripper about why i thought strip clubs were exploitative and i was hypocritical for being there

anyone have a strip club story?

[¿Que?]

Did I ever tell you the smelly butt story, no? Good.

I don't really go to strip clubs, for the same reasons as you, however, I believe in women's fundamental right and objective reality of their self determination. I can't criticize a woman for doing that.

I will however say that when I feel real lonely, and I have a couple of bucks in my wallet, it's very tempting, but not because of the scantily clad women. Rather, my fucked up primitive brain thinks that I may actually hook up with a stripper for some reason. That I have a better chance at a strip club than at a regular bar. Or that at least if I get rejected, at least I saw her naked or some such masculinist idiocy. It's my socially masculinist conditioned brain employing my advanced reasoning skills to justify itself, I guess.

Haven't been to one in years, tbh, but I'd probably go again if I had some kind of money, nothing to do, and I would probably drive to the next town over, in case someone recognizes my car...derp.:lol:

[ed miliband]

strip clubs make me think about the slavoj zizek thing about decaf coffee and beer without alcohol

[Искра]

I couldn't enter strip club. I'm too "feminist" for that.

[ed miliband]

I couldn't enter strip club. I'm too "feminist" for that.

i must admit i was so drunk that i got really puritanical and offended the poor dancer

[¿Que?]

I couldn't enter strip club. I'm too "feminist" for that.
No offense, I admire your principled position but:
http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/508/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png

[Raúl Duke]

I have mixed feelings...I wouldn't mind going to a strip club is everything was paid, if my friends invited me.

But I personally haven't had much interest in going to one.

[RedAnarchist]

I would not go into a strip club at all. Even if I had enough of a sex drive to find those kind of places interesting, I wouldn't.

[Искра]

Well I don't like that such places exist and I don't think that I would feel really confrotable to watch naked women dancing for some idiots. I'm a way from some kind of conservative moralist (after all my biggest fanstasy is that woman drink my blood and beat me sensless... which women kind of don't like :D), but this is just shit... Woman is not commodity. It is a perfection worth worshiping.

[ed miliband]

the clientele was basically:

- old rich white guys
- men who looked like nonces
- "lads"

[Искра]

I would rather go to S&M club to serve my mistress.

[RedAnarchist]

I would rather go to S&M club to serve my mistress.

Whilst I think I would be very submissive in a relationship, I don't think I would do something like S&M.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I've been to a couple, always in a situation involving alcohol and other individuals. I don't really like them, though, because they kind of make me want to have sex, but I know that's probably not in the cards. So basically I feel like I'm being manipulated. Which, let's face it, most people in strip clubs probably are.

I also don't like being harrassed when I'm drinking. I don't know if that's the norm in strip clubs, but man, some persistent strippers were trying to get me to fork over cash, which didn't happen. I'm too much of a drunken miser. When I was in Prague there were tons of leering dudes who stood outside doors of strip clubs, noted that I was a tourist, and kept trying to get me to come in to see "sex shows, no cover!" God I hated those guys. :rolleyes:

[Искра]

"sex shows, no cover!" God I hated those guys. :rolleyes:
That happened to me in Amsterdam. And I was like "fuck of *****, leave me alone". Good thing was that my friend was HC Chatolic (he's a priest now) so he had Bible and showed that to every such guy... and they were "ok, sorry" :D

But anyhow. Going to a strip club is almost as going to a prostitute. Also I have to add that in Croatia and this part of the World you don't have strip clubs like in US. They are smaller, more private and people actually have sex with girls, who are probably imported from Romania and Ukraine.

[ed miliband]

I've been to a couple, always in a situation involving alcohol and other individuals. I don't really like them, though, because they kind of make me want to have sex, but I know that's probably not in the cards. So basically I feel like I'm being manipulated. Which, let's face it, most people in strip clubs probably are.

I also don't like being harrassed when I'm drinking. I don't know if that's the norm in strip clubs, but man, some persistent strippers were trying to get me to fork over cash, which didn't happen. I'm too much of a drunken miser. When I was in Prague there were tons of leering dudes who stood outside doors of strip clubs, noted that I was a tourist, and kept trying to get me to come in to see "sex shows, no cover!" God I hated those guys. :rolleyes:

that's it man! i'd like this post if i could

some of the guys seemed to be so turned on by the simple fact they were being spoken to by a woman - despite the fact it it was all an act

[ed miliband]

my excuse for not wanting a dance/to buy a drink for a girl/etc was being gay

[Veovis]

Nah, no thanks. Besides, I think there are only two here that feature men.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I don't go to them for many reasons. Fuck 'em.

[Lobotomy]

I went once with a few friends, it was kind of weird. they literally didn't have female restrooms open to the public so they let me go into the dancers' changing rooms (where the only female restroom was). that was uncomfortable.

[Ostrinski]

I almost got in a fist fight with my dad because he wanted to take me for my 18th birthday. I told him that the only reason I would go into one would be to burn it down. In retrospect the comment was immature and unnecessary. My dad started crying after that. It was weird. I don't know how you could have a good time considering the chauvinist scumbags around you, though.

Though sometimes I don't know what to do with my libido, since I don't masturbate or have sex.

[NewLeft]

Though sometimes I don't know what to do with my libido, since I don't masturbate or have sex.

:sneaky:

[#FF0000]

I almost got in a fist fight with my dad because he wanted to take me for my 18th birthday. I told him that the only reason I would go into one would be to burn it down. In retrospect the comment was immature and unnecessary. My dad started crying after that. It was weird. I don't know how you could have a good time considering the chauvinist scumbags around you, though.

Though sometimes I don't know what to do with my libido, since I don't masturbate or have sex.

what a post

[Agent Ducky]

Woman is not commodity. It is a perfection worth worshiping.
Lies. Nothing is worth worshiping, especially women. Men too.

Also @Brospierre, are you asexual?

[Prometeo liberado]

my friend made me as part of a birthday "treat" and he paid for all my drinks and a "dance"

i spent the "dance" chatting to the stripper about why i thought strip clubs were exploitative and i was hypocritical for being there

anyone have a strip club story?

Sure you did.;)
"And I was all, and she was all...."

[Bronco]

I have been to one once, in Zante, don't judge me, it was my friends 18th and we were all drunk :crying:

[Yuppie Grinder]

I wasn't cool with strip clubs for non-political reasons long before I was conscious of patriarchy. The idea of a woman paying attention to you only because she's being paid to is really depressing to me.

[Nox]

I'm so awkward around girls that even if I did go (which I never would), I wouldn't enjoy it at all

[Искра]

Lies. Nothing is worth worshiping, especially women.
No, they are. Especially when they are angry, when they want to take a revange on you, when they want cause you pain, harm or kill you. I like female rage and passion. Also, dedication, obsession, hate, love... etc. So, I worship women.

[Nox]

No, they are. Especially when they are angry, when they want to take a revange on you, when they want cause you pain, harm or kill you. I like female rage and passion. Also, dedication, obsession, hate, love... etc. So, I worship women.

That's the weirdest fetish I've ever heard of (trust me I've heard of some weird ones)

[ВАЛТЕР]

Never had an interest in going to a strip club. If I want to get turned on I'll go out and get laid. A little bit of effort and you don't have to sit there and throw money at a woman who you know damn well you aren't going to have sex with. I wouldn't find it very pleasurable honestly. I mean, you are there to turn me on, and then what? If we aren't having sex wtf am I turned on for.

Just my two cents.

[KrasnayaRossiya]

in ukraine they just stop by the road and do a quicky for 5 dollars.no wonder we have so much aids everywhere.

[Agent Ducky]

No, they are. Especially when they are angry, when they want to take a revange on you, when they want cause you pain, harm or kill you. I like female rage and passion. Also, dedication, obsession, hate, love... etc. So, I worship women.
:blink: These are the kind of people I'm scared of. And the more I think about it the more fucking terrified I get.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I've been to clubs a few times, not strip clubs though. There's nothing like being in a room full of women screaming "*****" during a Too Short song...

[Ostrinski]

Also @Brospierre, are you asexual?Idk, I have a sex drive and I'm attracted to women but I'm on really heavy anti-depressant medication so it keeps it in check. But no it doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other.

[KrasnayaRossiya]

you should drink birch juice,it helps ;-)
in a few months it will be ready for "Harvest"

[Crux]

I would be so fucking akward at a strip club for a number of reasons, perhaps if I was really really drunk, but then I'd probably get in a fight or something. I suspect I wouldn't go so well with the...euhm clientelle.

[Os Cangaceiros]

That's the weirdest fetish I've ever heard of (trust me I've heard of some weird ones)

You've never heard of BDSM before?

[khlib]

Under capitalism, all workers' bodies are "exploited" for profit, and to reserve a certain shame for stripping is the real sexist attitude. We are all trying to get by in an exploitative system, doing jobs that are less than ideal in order to make enough money to live on. Most strippers I know would be more offended by a moralizing customer trying to "save" them than a guy enjoying the show and throwing her 20's.

[9]

under capitalism, all workers' bodies are "exploited" for profit, and to reserve a certain shame for stripping is the real sexist attitude. We are all trying to get by in an exploitative system, doing jobs that are less than ideal in order to make enough money to live on. Most strippers i know would be more offended by a moralizing customer trying to "save" them than a guy enjoying the show and throwing her 20's.

qft.

[ed miliband]

i know now that you're totally right but i was very drunk and pissed off by my insistence that i go so yeah - i totally offended the dancer and i kinda feel bad about it

[Crux]

Under capitalism, all workers' bodies are "exploited" for profit, and to reserve a certain shame for stripping is the real sexist attitude. We are all trying to get by in an exploitative system, doing jobs that are less than ideal in order to make enough money to live on. Most strippers I know would be more offended by a moralizing customer trying to "save" them than a guy enjoying the show and throwing her 20's.
yes, moralism is a trap too. But there are diffrences between different forms of wage slavery.

[manic expression]

Never been interested in strip clubs...way too fake of an environment for me, seems kind of like the sexualized analog of a haunted house to be honest.


Woman is not commodity. It is a perfection worth worshiping.
haha feminists say the darndest things.

[Crux]

Never been interested in strip clubs...way too fake of an environment for me, seems kind of like the sexualized analog of a haunted house to be honest.


haha feminists say the darndest things.

I think kontra has made a mistake too, but are you saying you're not a feminist?

[9]

oh god here we go

[manic expression]

@Majakovskij If you're interested I posted some in-depth reflections on this in the "fighting sexism on the left" thread in women's struggles...that would be more useful to see my personal views than any explanation I could give here.

[Nox]

You've never heard of BDSM before?

BDSM is kinky, me gusta

[#FF0000]

did this become 'men explaining why women shouldn't do a thing' yet or am i early

[PC LOAD LETTER]

As far as the topic goes. I've been to strip clubs a few times. The first one was about 3 1/2 years ago. I was 19 and was with two of my friends in Florida for a week in the summer. The last night we all got fucked up. I woke up the next morning in the back seat of the car holding a nearly-empty Heineken mini-keg like a teddy bear and we're parking somewhere. Apparently we were on the way back and I had drunkenly loaded my bags in the car a few hours before. I get up and realize we're in the parking lot of a strip club (or rather, a restaurant with nude waitresses that would also do dances if you wanted). It's about 11 AM and I'm still half-drunk and wondering where the mini-keg came from. My friends decided to stop there for lunch. The waitress was naked. The burger was mediocre. Apparently I walked to the store the night before and bought the mini-keg, already somewhat drunk, then we walked back. I got into a fight with someone on the side-walk over something I don't remember. We went back to the hotel and got drunk-er.

The second / third time was a few months ago. Three of my friends (not the same ones) decided one night, after we've been drinking a bit, but not drunk, to go to the strip club. I go along. It was okay. I didn't buy any dances, just got drunk. My friends only bought one dance each, then bought me a dance because they didn't want me to be left out. The beer was too expensive. I spent $85 on Budweiser. We repeated the experience a week later.

To be honest, I don't really care about strip clubs. I'm ambivalent. I kind of think it's a waste of money. At the same time it's fun to have attractive women running around naked. Yet again, it's a tease. It's not somewhere I would choose to go, but I'm not going to whine or complain if my friends decide they want to go.

Idk, I have a sex drive and I'm attracted to women but I'm on really heavy anti-depressant medication so it keeps it in check. But no it doesn't make any difference to me one way or the other.
Cymbalta did that to me about two years ago. Then I got off of it about a year ago and things returned to normal. But, man ... SSRI/SNRI withdrawal is fucking terrible. It's like your brain is being electrocuted every few minutes ... or seconds ... or every time you move. It's very unpleasant. About half-way through my SNRI experience, my doc decided to "boost" it with Wellbutrin. Well, that made me feel like I was on speed. I was literally twitching. I stopped taking it after a week.

[gorillafuck]

going to a strip club sounds horrible, it's meant to be a tease. that just sounds like a stressful experience.

[bcbm]

i went to a strip club once. i don't think there is anything wrong with stripping, but i didn't find the club very enjoyable. my friend fell asleep at our table though which was pretty funny.

[black magick hustla]

I've been to a couple, always in a situation involving alcohol and other individuals. I don't really like them, though, because they kind of make me want to have sex, but I know that's probably not in the cards. So basically I feel like I'm being manipulated. Which, let's face it, most people in strip clubs probably are.


exactly my thoughts on strippers and bars with "attractive" waitresses. i can get females to rub my back i dont need you to manipulate my sexual starvation for a better tip

[black magick hustla]

if someone paid for my lapdance i would be happy to get wtf is wrong with you aufkleben.

i dont pity hookers, strippers, etc. i mean i pity them to the point i pity anyone that has to do boring/alienating shit to get by. hookers and most strippers make more than what i do why should i pity them lol

[bricolage]

I went to a strip club once, it was in Honduras and everyone had guns on them, I fell asleep at a table.

[Quail]

Never been to a strip club. It's really not my thing. I can get attention from attractive people without paying for it.

[Sasha]

when i was in sanfransico i used too hangout at the stripclub where a bunch of friends of friends used to work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusty_Lady http://www.lustyladysf.com/
they succesfully unionised (including slowdown actions and walkouts etc) and then the bosses wanted to close so they bought the place as a worker owned co-op, there is a documentairy about the whole union struggle.
still wear my "union of exotic dancers - afl-cio" solidarity shirt reguarly, sparked some really funny discussions with sex-negative "feminists" (mostly males funny enough) who first accused me of being a chauvinist pig that needed to be expelled from the scene only to their horification being explained that this union was in fact a real thing and that they needed to shut the hell up already.
if you go to a stripclub this is the place to go for a leftist

[Rusty Shackleford]

this subject makes me think of the Sex Workers Outreach Project program where one of the points is "don't be a captain save-a-ho" many sex workers might actually be ok with it. a friend of mine said she was considering going into stripping.



besides that though, i could never willfully go to a stripclub

[An archist]

when i was in sanfransico i used too hangout at the stripclub where a bunch of friends of friends used to work: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusty_Lady http://www.lustyladysf.com/
they succesfully unionised (including slowdown actions and walkouts etc) and then the bosses wanted to close so they bought the place as a worker owned co-op, there is a documentairy about the whole union struggle.
still wear my "union of exotic dancers - afl-cio" solidarity shirt reguarly, sparked some really funny discussions with sex-negative "feminists" (mostly males funny enough) who first accused me of being a chauvinist pig that needed to be expelled from the scene only to their horification being explained that this union was in fact a real thing and that they needed to shut the hell up already.
if you go to a stripclub this is the place to go for a leftist

:D I always enjoy your little anecdotes.

[Ostrinski]

Cymbalta did that to me about two years ago. Then I got off of it about a year ago and things returned to normal. But, man ... SSRI/SNRI withdrawal is fucking terrible. It's like your brain is being electrocuted every few minutes ... or seconds ... or every time you move. It's very unpleasant. About half-way through my SNRI experience, my doc decided to "boost" it with Wellbutrin. Well, that made me feel like I was on speed. I was literally twitching. I stopped taking it after a week.Omg you're the only other person I've met who has that. It's like you get heat flashes, headache, dizziness, and the worst part is that every time you move your eyes it feels like your brain is pulsing.

[gorillafuck]

Never been to a strip club. It's really not my thing. I can get attention from attractive people without paying for it.nominate for least passive aggressive post

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Omg you're the only other person I've met who has that. It's like you get heat flashes, headache, dizziness, and the worst part is that every time you move your eyes it feels like your brain is pulsing.
Yep, that's it. Most of it went away for me after about a month after I stopped taking the shit. Maybe 6 weeks. Occasionally it still happens, maybe once a month. But it's nowhere near what it was before. Now it's just kind of a fleeting, uncomfortable sensation.

I'm still extremely pissed at my doc for putting me on something that's documented as doing that shit without even so much as letting me know. And I'm fairly sure that stuff made me less stable. Now I just self-medicate with pot and I'm fine. Not that I recommend anyone else do that. I'm not a doctor and I can't know if someone else will be fine after they dump their meds in favor of pot.

[Luís Henrique]

did this become 'men explaining why women shouldn't do a thing' yet or am i early

Isn't it always like that?

Luís Henrique

[The Douche]

I don't like strip clubs because they make me feel intensely uncomfortable, I don't want to judge you for what you do, but it depresses me that women would be forced to sell their sexuality to pay bills.

The first time I went to one, I caught the utter look of despair and disgust in a girl's eyes while she had to perform a dance for a particularly disgusting client.

[Quail]

nominate for least passive aggressive post
Haha I didn't really mean it in a passive-aggressive way. I would really feel uncomfortable if someone was only into me because I'd paid them. In fact it would probably make me feel even worse about myself than if I just couldn't get with someone.

[9]

I don't want to judge you for what you do, but

Its funny though, isnt it, how the same sort of pity and shame is never reserved for other occupations where you have to serve disgusting and/or obnoxious people, unless it involves women in some sort of sexualized capacity.

[Buitraker]

I´ve been to a couple, but always celebrating dinner with workmates.


I dont like this place, but to drink dont give a fuck

[The Douche]

Its funny though, isnt it, how the same sort of pity and shame is never reserved for other occupations where you have to serve disgusting and/or obnoxious people, unless it involves women in some sort of sexualized capacity.

My problem isn't with sexualized women. I really dislike the turning of sex into a commodity. I feel the same way about strippers as a I do about advertising and music that sells sexuality.

And individual choosing to be "sexy" and expressing themselves is fine by me.


Obviously this does not apply to the individuals who choose to do this. I have friends who work in porn, they do it by choice, not because they're forced to by their circumstances.

[ed miliband]

to be fair i remember apologising to the [male] toilet cleaners for my presence there and giving them an extra large tip (which was compulsory anyway) because they had to "deal with creeps" [at which point i pointed at a particularly weird looking fellow going for a piss]

[CountryKid]

My friends tried to take me to a strip club with nekked ladies when I turned 18.


I didn't have political reasons not to go at the time, and it was pretty awkward. :blushing:

[A.J.]

I've recently become a male escort(desperate times call for desperate measures) Perhaps off-topic I was just wondering what's posters take on that is?

[9]

Dont worry, its only a problem for people here if you are a woman.

[Nox]

I've recently become a male escort(desperate times call for desperate measures) Perhaps off-topic I was just wondering what's posters take on that is?

My take on it is that I feel sympathy for prostitutes/escorts because most of the time they have to do what they do to get by.

[Sasha]

to be fair i remember apologising to the [male] toilet cleaners for my presence there and giving them an extra large tip (which was compulsory anyway) because they had to "deal with creeps" [at which point i pointed at a particularly weird looking fellow going for a piss]

The strippers at the lusty alway pointed towards the cleaners when moralists would ask how they could do "such a terrible job", apperently its not uncommon for them to have to clean spunk of the ceiling...

[Sasha]

I've recently become a male escort(desperate times call for desperate measures) Perhaps off-topic I was just wondering what's posters take on that is?

I would say nothing, i would just pass along the advice givin to me by friends who did the same;
Dont do it to long, pick a day in the not to distant future (5 years was suggested) when you will get out no matter what, establish on forehand a few clear bounderies that you will not cross no matter how much is offered, always do it safe, get tested reguarly, always let someone know where you are, if a john gives of a bad vibe walk away, no matter how desperate the times....

Good luck...

[A.J.]

My take on it is that I feel sympathy for prostitutes/escorts because most of the time they have to do what they do to get by.

I should perhaps point out escorting is a very lucrative line of work in this neck of the woods. Some nights I can earn up to 1000 GBP tax free (If your reasonably good-looking and open minded enough you can really clean up in this town) so I really dont expect any sympathy. Only downsides is the social stigma and potential risk of STIs/STDs.

[Nox]

I should perhaps point out escorting is a very lucrative line of work in this neck of the woods. Some nights I can earn up to 1000 GBP tax free (If your reasonably good-looking and open minded enough you can really clean up in this town) so I really dont expect any sympathy. Only downsides is the social stigma and potential risk of STIs/STDs.

Wait... You're a male escort right? Surely there can't be that many people using male escorts...

[Sasha]

Wait... You're a male escort right? Surely there can't be that many people using male escorts...

Im pretty sure there are as much straight females and gay men as straight men and gay females in the world...

[Bronco]

My take on it is that I feel sympathy for prostitutes/escorts because most of the time they have to do what they do to get by.

Like any other job then

[Nox]

Im pretty sure there are as much straight females and gay men as straight men and gay females in the world...

Well, yes, but you know what I mean...


Like any other job then

Well, yes, but prostitution is particularly bad in terms of the physical and mental hazards.

[A.J.]

Wait... You're a male escort right? Surely there can't be that many people using male escorts...

As it happens in the short time I've been doing this I've never seen more than a single client in an evening. My clientele consists solely wealthy business women and I charge £150-200 per hour.

[Luís Henrique]

Well, yes, but prostitution is particularly bad in terms of the physical and mental hazards.

Erm, coal mining? Garbage collecting? Shoe gluing? Cotton picking?

Seriously, the suicide rate is probably higher among bank tellers than among prostitutes.

Luís Henrique

[Veovis]

I've recently become a male escort(desperate times call for desperate measures) Perhaps off-topic I was just wondering what's posters take on that is?

I heartily and enthusiastically approve. :thumbup:

[Nox]

Erm, coal mining? Garbage collecting? Shoe gluing? Cotton picking?

Seriously, the suicide rate is probably higher among bank tellers than among prostitutes.

Luís Henrique

It's not the worst job in the world but it's definitely much worse than most other jobs.

[bricolage]

It's not the worst job in the world but it's definitely much worse than most other jobs.
that's such a blanket statement.
there are sex workers who work once every month or so and get paid enough to live pretty well off, there are those who are trafficked across borders and consigned to effective slavery.

as with every job, it's about conditions.

[Nox]

that's such a blanket statement.
there are sex workers who work once every month or so and get paid enough to live pretty well off, there are those who are trafficked across borders and consigned to effective slavery.

as with every job, it's about conditions.

Conditions which are almost always piss poor. Yes there are prostitutes who don't have to work often and make a lot of money, but they are a tiny minority.

I'm just saying that prostitution is right up there with the most undesirable jobs.

[bricolage]

Conditions which are almost always piss poor. Yes there are prostitutes who don't have to work often and make a lot of money, but they are a tiny minority.
Pretty much almost exactly the same as cleaners but no one ever tries to 'save' them.

[#FF0000]

i have a friend who was a stripper for awhile. she made some pretty redic money and didn't mind the job at all. liked it better than most other jobs she's had, apparently.

[Nox]

Pretty much almost exactly the same as cleaners but no one ever tries to 'save' them.

I would much rather be a cleaner than a prostitute. And by prostitute, I don't mean the tiny minority of prostitutes who make £1000 a night or whatever, I mean the 99% of prostitutes who have to do it most nights just to get by.

[dodger]

Pretty much almost exactly the same as cleaners but no one ever tries to 'save' them.

Looks like they got tired of waiting....just decided to save themselves....:D

From email 9th feb2012

RAIL UNION RMT today announced the end a pay dispute involving OCS cleaners working on the Eurostar contract after a new deal secured the union’s interim objective of getting all staff onto a minimum rate of £8 per hour by the autumn of this year.




A series of incremental increases under the package will say the minimum rate of pay rise from £7.40 an hour to £8.00 per hour by November - an increase of around 8% on the basic.

The victory has come following a hard fought recruitment and organising campaign amongst the staff led by RMT’s EPS Branch and after a ballot of members delivered a resounding mandate for industrial action in pursuit of pay justice.

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said:

“The achievement of RMT’s interim target of a £8 per hour minimum on OCS Eurostar is a major breakthrough in the fight for justice for cleaners and has come about through the sheer determination and guts of our members and the hard work of the RMT EPS Branch. They are a credit to the trade union movement.

“This result comes just weeks after we secured a 10% increase for cleaners on the West Coast route and shows that fighting, industrial trade unionism can beat the defeatists and win major pay victories even in these days of ConDem austerity.

“RMT is not stopping here. Our cleaners across the transport sector deserve far better and we will keep building the organisation and strength on the shop floor to win every single one of them justice on pay and conditions.”

[bricolage]

well yeah that's the difference isn't it, people (including most lefists) don't recognise sex workers as 'proper' workers so they aren't able to self-organise and fight for better conditions. instead they have to 'saved' by middle class do gooders.

[bricolage]

I would much rather be a cleaner than a prostitute. And by prostitute, I don't mean the tiny minority of prostitutes who make £1000 a night or whatever, I mean the 99% of prostitutes who have to do it most nights just to get by.
I don't really get this distinction though cos 99% of all workers do what they do most, well almost every, day (and night) just to get by. hence the point that I'm sure most people that clean toilets every day would rather not but we live in capitalism and they have to work to survive.

[GoddessCleoLover]

I am one of "those" leftists. IMO "sex workers" tend to fall into two categories, narcotics users who need addictions or mental health treatment or the "high end" sex "worker" who is frankly petit-bourgeois. High end sex "workers" in advanced countries bear all of the characteristics of petty entrepreneurs rather than proletarians. With respect to sex workers in poor countries it might be more accurate to characterize the "low end" sex workers as proletarian. There is also the issue of trafficking women into prostitution against their and by use of deceit and force. Frankly, I think that classical Marxian class analysis is insufficient to comprehend this issue in its entirety. Feminist analysis regarding the sexual exploitation of women is also a necessary component to the reality that many female sex workers are required to turn over a portion of their earning to pimps.

[9]

I am one of "those" leftists.

Right, the 'condescending middle class male feminist' category.

Also, two of my closest friends are strippers, neither of them are "narcotics users who need addictions or mental health treatment", youre fucking disgusting. Not to mention there are plenty of workers with drug and alcohol problems, I have never heard anyone suggest that this changes someones class position...

[GoddessCleoLover]

But your stripper friends are clearly petit-bourgeois. Hustling tips by means of a stage performance, pushing drinks on customers, lap dances etcetera are clearly the activities of a small-scale entrepreneur, not a worker. When one strips away the sexual mystique in what is involved in the strip bar scene are variations of hustles that have been going on since so-called "primitive communism".

BTW what I actually had in mind with respect to drug and mental health problems were streetwalkers. One would have to be naive to ignore that reality.

[9]

But your stripper friends are clearly petit-bourgeois. Hustling tips by means of a stage performance, pushing drinks on customers, lap dances etcetera are clearly the activities of a small-scale entrepreneur, not a worker.

Wow. You havent demonstrated how any of that is petit bourgeois, youve merely asserted that it is. So strippers who are employed by a strip club, who obviously arent employing anyone themselves, are petit bourgeois by virtue of receiving tips and giving lap dances. Im sorry, but youre a fucking idiot.

[9]

Also, I work as a waitress at a sports bar on the weekends. I "push drinks on customers" and earn tips. Evidently I am petit bourgeois. Who knew.

[GoddessCleoLover]

Spent many years working in restaurants, and IMO working in lower end restaurants was more proletarian while high end restaurants definitely contained more earning opportunities than those enjoyed by less privileged restaurant workers.

Whatever the realities of the continuum of restaurants and bars, "strip bars" are an entirely different matter. Tip earning opportunities are more limited and circumscribed in eating establishments than in sexual entertainment venues. "Strippers" are clearly privileged to engage in certain free lance activities of which I will refrain from explicitly describing. Suffice to say that the characterization as petit-bourgeois is based upon the ability to earn through various "hustles". When the sexual mystique is pierced they are clearly just a specialized time of entertainer, and entertainers have always been considered petit-bourgeois. That term is not an insult, merely a description of how one relates to the means of production. I have spent to much time on this niche subject. Frankly, I am far more concerned about young women who are are deceived and then subjected to force via "human trafficking" than this tangent.

[Lobotomy]

When the sexual mystique is pierced they are clearly just a specialized time of entertainer, and entertainers have always been considered petit-bourgeois.

not really though. Entertainers still have to sell their labor and most entertainers don't make that much money

[gorillafuck]

I've recently become a male escort(desperate times call for desperate measures) Perhaps off-topic I was just wondering what's posters take on that is?I'm free saturday

[9]

When the sexual mystique is pierced they are clearly just a specialized time of entertainer, and entertainers have always been considered petit-bourgeois.

Really?

"A singer who sells her songs on her own account is an unproductive worker. But the same singer, engaged by an impresario, who has her sing in order to make money, is a productive worker. For she produces capital.'"

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1861/economic/ch38.htm

[gorillafuck]

why does it matter if someone is petit-bourgeois or not even? I'd rather be self employed than have a shitty prole job.

[bcbm]

gramsci guy is on the fast track to the top of my 'biggest idiot on revleft' list

[9]

It matters when someone who claims to be a marxist declares strippers to be petit bougeois because of tips and lap dances FFS. Communists should be for maximum class unity, not for sowing false divisions among workers on the basis of moralistic prejudices.

[arilando]

Whilst I think I would be very submissive in a relationship, I don't think I would do something like S&M.
Are you a male or female? BTW i wrote this with closed eyes.

[gorillafuck]

It matters when someone who claims to be a marxist declares strippers to be petit bougeois because of tips and lap dances FFS.I don't see why. even if strippers are petit-bourgeois (which I know they aren't) then who gives a shit. when it comes down to reality, whether or not someone makes enough money to get by matters more than whether or not they are technically petit-bourgeois or proletarian if they're making shitty money. I understand that you might be mad at your two close friends being called petit-bourgeois but it seems really irrelevant to me, other than on a personal offense level.

[9]

I mean, I guess if you arent interested in making any sort of deeper analysis of anything, then that makes sense...

At any rate, I am not mad about some old man nerd on the internet calling my friends petit bourgeois, I am mad about sexist prejudice parading around as marxism.

[arilando]

I almost got in a fist fight with my dad because he wanted to take me for my 18th birthday. I told him that the only reason I would go into one would be to burn it down. In retrospect the comment was immature and unnecessary. My dad started crying after that. It was weird. I don't know how you could have a good time considering the chauvinist scumbags around you, though.

Though sometimes I don't know what to do with my libido, since I don't masturbate or have sex.
Why the fuck not? I wrote this with my eyes closed, too.

[gorillafuck]

I mean, I guess if you arent interested in making any sort of deeper analysis of anything, then that makes sense...I think what I am saying is completely correct, even if it is not as "deep" as what other people say.



At any rate, I am not mad about some old man nerd on the internet calling my friends petit bourgeois, I am mad about sexist prejudice parading around as marxism.that's fair.

[9]

I think what I am saying is completely correct, even if it is not as "deep" as what other people say.


I dont mean deep like whoooaa dudee thats profound, I mean an analysis that goes beneath the surface of things. So someone who owns a small business and employs workers, though they may have it very rough and they may be struggling to feed their family, ultimately their interests are diametrically opposed to the workers they employ. Not everyone who is struggling to make ends meet necessarily falls on the same side of the class divide.

[gorillafuck]

I dont mean deep like whoooaa dudee thats profound, I mean an analysis that goes beneath the surface of things. So someone who owns a small business and employs workers, though they may have it very rough and they may be struggling to feed their family, ultimately their interests are diametrically opposed to the workers they employ. Not everyone who is struggling to make ends meet necessarily falls on the same side of the class divide.the hypothetical person you just described is not petit-bourgeois. they are struggling bourgeois.

[9]

No theyre not.. small business owners are petit bourgeois.

[gorillafuck]

how?:confused: now I am genuinely confused.

is there a line for how well a business is doing as to whether or not someone is bourgeois or petit-bourgeois?

[9]

I mean, there is a lot of grey area, but generally the petit bourgeoisie are considered to be shop keepers, small business owners, the self employed, etc.

[gorillafuck]

that doesn't really answer me as to how.

[9]

I guess I dont understand your question. How what?

[gorillafuck]

how is somebody who owns a business and employs workers petit-bourgeois just because the business is not as successful as larger businesses?

[9]

There are some problems with the wiki entry, but it still might be helpful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petit_bourgeoisie

[gorillafuck]

that did not help me very much, sorry.

where would you say the line is drawn?

[9]

Between petit bourgeois and big bourgeois? IDK, I think it is pretty blurry.

[gorillafuck]

petit-bourgeois doesn't literally mean the smaller (yet still) bourgeois just because it literally translates to that, I don't think. as a class it has to be distinct for reasons apart from just the size of the, uh, bourgeoisness. or else what is the point of the dichotomy? I've always considered petit-bourgeois to be self employed.

that would be like having petit-proletarian (working at the k-mart) and big-proletarian (the unionized trash collector in nyc)

[9]

petit-bourgeois doesn't literally mean the smaller (yet still) bourgeois just because it literally translates to that, I don't think.

Yeah, it actually does lol.

[9]

Anyway, I gotta get ready for work lol, so maybe somebody else can jump in here and do a better job of explaining it than I have. :)

[gorillafuck]

Yeah, it actually does lol.but then that draws people who employ workers to work in their business, and someone who owns a hot dog stand and operates it by them self, into the same class.

this is making marxism seem more and more useless to me.:unsure:

[GoddessCleoLover]

Actually there are not in the same class. The hot dog stand owner is in a contradictory position, as she or he works long hours often for not much more than workers' wages. OTOH people in that class often believe that they will strike it rich some day, eg. be the next Oscar Mayer. Marxian analysis properly understood means that folks like this will sometimes side with the workers, but have a tendency to see themselves as potentially successful capitalists. The same thing applies to strippers since they have opportunities to freelance and earn money directly from customers as opposed to depending on their shift pay.

[gorillafuck]

The same thing applies to strippers since they have opportunities to freelance and earn money directly from customers as opposed to depending on their shift pay.for one, strippers are not freelancers. and for two, you are aware that that basically makes any job where you get tips petit-bourgeois if we're using your logic?

[GoddessCleoLover]

My closest childhood friend's father was a wannabe wiseguy and from what I heard women in that line of work had opportunities to freelance, for the sake of decorum we can use the term "lapdance". Earning tips as a server in a restaurant is generally not freelancing, rather a payment of a service fee by the customer rather than employer. I see the two situations as quite distinct, but if you or others at RevLeft see it differently, that's fine. Perhaps we can agree to disagree agreeably.

[Ostrinski]

The bourgeoisie and petite-bourgeoisie, imo, have relatively the same relationship to the means of production in that they both own means of production and accumulate capital. Imo the distinction lies in who's getting the shit end of the stick. The high bourgeoisie possess the means to suppress and out compete the small bourgeoisie who struggle to carve out a place for themselves in the market. It has to do with who is being pushed asunder and who is sitting there at the top of the mountain with their balls hanging low. Probably still pretty vague. Many small bourgeois have it pretty shitty, there are even some proletarians that have it "better," however we would evaluate that, but it's the social function and relationship to mop that decides class.

The only way a stripper could be petite bourgeois is if they owned their own club, hired other dancers, and profited off of their labor.

Gramsci Guy says that because they collect tips and engage in some free lance labor that they are petite bourgeois. By those standards if I mow my neighbor's lawn and collect 15 bucks I'm petite-bourgeois.

[GoddessCleoLover]

One who goes into business cutting lawns is petit-bourgeois by definition. One who is a "worker" whose job gives them an opportunity to make side deals is also a petit-bourgeois. The point is not to stigmatize members of that particular social class, but to realize that they have conflicting class interests. They often sell their labor, but distinct from proletarians they also have the opportunity to sometimes be their own boss or make their own deals. In other words, their class position is intermediate between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat.

[Ostrinski]

Shit, we all have opportunities to do odd jobs here and there. Guess we're all petite bourgeois then god damn.

[GoddessCleoLover]

The issue is not what one does here and there but what one does on a daily basis.

[heyjoe]

At any rate, I am not mad about some old man nerd on the internet calling my friends petit bourgeois, I am mad about sexist prejudice parading around as marxism.


as opposed to ageist prejudice parading around as marxism. you are more than a little full of yourself.

[9]

Right, prejudice against middle aged male nerds.:crying:
Im sure it wont kill you to hear a different perspective for a change.

[9]

"A wannabe wiseguy said it back in the day so I know its true!"

[¿Que?]

Well, but the petty Bourgeoisie are usually going to be struggling, yet their interests are opposed to their workers, that is of course, until they become proletarians themselves.

[gorillafuck]

can nerd please not become the newest revleft buzzword?

[eyedrop]

Isn't it pretty clear that it makes sense to classify a kiosk owner, working in his kiosk alongside his employees, together with a hotdog stand owner, working his stand by himself and the worker in a different group. What really counts for our, as revolutionaries, purpose is how the conditions of their workplace influences their outlook on the world.

The hotdog stand owner shares more of the problems encountered on the workplace with the kiosk owner than with the worker. The main thing defining the worker relation to his job is his boss, the hotdog stand owner doesn't experience that.

[arilando]

The bourgeoisie and petite-bourgeoisie, imo, have relatively the same relationship to the means of production in that they both own means of production and accumulate capital. Imo the distinction lies in who's getting the shit end of the stick. The high bourgeoisie possess the means to suppress and out compete the small bourgeoisie who struggle to carve out a place for themselves in the market. It has to do with who is being pushed asunder and who is sitting there at the top of the mountain with their balls hanging low. Probably still pretty vague. Many small bourgeois have it pretty shitty, there are even some proletarians that have it "better," however we would evaluate that, but it's the social function and relationship to mop that decides class.

The only way a stripper could be petite bourgeois is if they owned their own club, hired other dancers, and profited off of their labor.

Gramsci Guy says that because they collect tips and engage in some free lance labor that they are petite bourgeois. By those standards if I mow my neighbor's lawn and collect 15 bucks I'm petite-bourgeois.
If thats the only thing you do for a living you would be petite-bourgeois, petite-bourgeois basicaly means someone who is self employed, but does not employ other people.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I almost got in a fist fight with my dad because he wanted to take me for my 18th birthday. I told him that the only reason I would go into one would be to burn it down. In retrospect the comment was immature and unnecessary. My dad started crying after that. It was weird. I don't know how you could have a good time considering the chauvinist scumbags around you, though.

Wouldn't going to a strip club with your dad qualify as extremely painfully awkward?

Wait, wouldn't going to a strip club qualify as extremely painfully awkward, period? Yes. Yes, it would.

[Ostrinski]

Wouldn't going to a strip club with your dad qualify as extremely painfully awkward?

Wait, wouldn't going to a strip club qualify as extremely painfully awkward, period? Yes. Yes, it would.Yes. Also I'm so sexually frustrated I'd cry.

[Tovarisch]

I don't go to strip clubs, if I want to satisfy my hornyness I just type in "porn" into the google toolbar, and voila

[Nox]

Wait, wouldn't going to a strip club qualify as extremely painfully awkward, period? Yes. Yes, it would.

Oh shit, it would be so fucking awkward for me. Like, I wouldn't know what to do or say at all. I'd just be sat there in the corner trying to look busy on my phone.


I don't go to strip clubs, if I want to satisfy my hornyness I just type in "porn" into the google toolbar, and voila

Exactly, that's the same reason I don't understand why people pay for prostitutes or pay for drinks for a girl so they can get her drunk, when they can just watch porn :D

[dodger]

Yes. Also I'm so sexually frustrated I'd cry.

Well lots of lasses like to see grown men cry.....Brospierre.

[bricolage]

If thats the only thing you do for a living you would be petite-bourgeois, petite-bourgeois basicaly means someone who is self employed, but does not employ other people.
I don't think that's true at all, from what I can remember Marx referred to the petit-bourgeoisie as those who could not exploit workers sufficiently or rather exploit enough surplus value that they themselves do not have to work. If you think of a newsagent which is commonly held up as the archetypal petit-bourgeois institution, the owners will usually have someone else working in the shop, someone else delivering papers. I agree that the definition are confusing but it's more than just self-employed.

[Luís Henrique]

I would much rather be a cleaner than a prostitute. And by prostitute, I don't mean the tiny minority of prostitutes who make £1000 a night or whatever, I mean the 99% of prostitutes who have to do it most nights just to get by.

What about the tiny minority of cleaners that make £1,000 a day? Do they even exist?

Much of the awful conditions in prostitution are rather due to irrational laws that criminalise it or make legal protection of the activity impossible.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

I am one of "those" leftists. IMO "sex workers" tend to fall into two categories, narcotics users who need addictions or mental health treatment or the "high end" sex "worker" who is frankly petit-bourgeois.

My take is that your first category makes up for 10 to 20% of sex workers, and the second for about 1% at most. So they leave unassessed about 80-90% of the group.


Feminist analysis regarding the sexual exploitation of women is also a necessary component to the reality that many female sex workers are required to turn over a portion of their earning to pimps.

A better, simpler, analysis is this: other activities are protected by the law-and-order apparatus, prostitution is not. So they have to hire their own private security, which, due to the clandestine or semi-clandestine nature of the trade, often ends achieving an exploitative position against them.

If baking bread was an illegal or semi-legal activity, bakers would have pimps too.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

how?:confused: now I am genuinely confused.

is there a line for how well a business is doing as to whether or not someone is bourgeois or petit-bourgeois?

Capital is self-reproducing money. A capitalist is a person who manages capital, ie, self-reproducing money. So that's the line, and yes, it is quite imprecise: those whose earnings can be accumulated in order to generate more capital are capitalists. So a person who has no employees, but puts her $ 10,000,000 in a bank for an interest of $ 50,000 a month is a capitalist, while a person who has ten employees in her small business and earns just $ 2,000 a month from it is not a capitalist, even if she doesn't work herself.

Luís Henrique

[GoddessCleoLover]

Indeed it may be the case that a majority of "sex workers" these days utilize internet technology to circumvent traditional structures by which they were denied control of their business. This type of "sex worker" would sociologically be a freelance, self-employed owner of her own business. Of course, the passage of time would present real difficulties to the owner of this particular type of business in the form of competition from younger women.

I have been addressing this issue from an American perspective, and from what I have read sex workers in poorer countries work under even more difficult circumstances. In any event, Luis Henrique raises an excellent point in that laws proscribing commercial sexual activities only serve to exacerbate their difficulties and stigmatize women who are only trying to earn money for themselves and often their children by providing services highly in demand by males.

[RedAnarchist]

Are you a male or female? BTW i wrote this with closed eyes.

Biologically male. I think when I say 2very submissive", it's partly no desire to control as well.

[Orlov]

I fail to see how prostitution and strip clubs are exploitation as long as the woman is in control of her means of production (sex) and comfortably enjoys the work that she is doing.

[StalinFanboy]

i dont like going to someones place of work and watching them work. weirds me out.

[lombas]

I fail to see how prostitution and strip clubs are exploitation as long as the woman is in control of her means of production (sex) and comfortably enjoys the work that she is doing.

Which, regretfully, she is not in most of the cases and is merely pushed into selling her body or is being exploited by human traffickers/pimps.

[lombas]

While I could understand prostitution, if based on the free decision of all parties involved, might help one feel better about him/herself, I fail to see how watching other people dance might excite you or help your self-confidence/self-esteem.

[Delenda Carthago]

As it happens in the short time I've been doing this I've never seen more than a single client in an evening. My clientele consists solely wealthy business women and I charge £150-200 per hour.

You need a mediteranian lover for co-worker?