48hr general strike greece kicks off; demo's, riots, occupations [Archive]

Sasha

12th February 2012, 12:07

updates from occupied london:

For our latest updates, continue checking this post or follow the February 10-11 General Strike (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/tag/february-10-11-general-strike/) tag.
Sunday, Feb 12

Athens and all major greek cities build up for crucial demonstrations of February 12 (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/12/athens-and-all-major-greek-cities-build-up-for-crucial-demonstrations-of-february-12/)

Saturday, Feb 11

Update on the people arrested on the first day of the General Strike (Feb 10) (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/11/update-on-the-people-arrested-on-the-first-day-of-the-general-strike-feb-10/)
Athens: Second communiqué by the occupied Law School (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/11/athens-second-communique-by-the-occupied-law-school/)
Peacetime crimes (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/11/peacetime-crimes/)
Leader of far-right LAOS party warns of possible army intervention (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/11/leader-of-far-right-laos-party-warns-of-possible-army-intervention/)
Heraclion, Crete: Anarchists occupy local TV station (video) (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/11/heraclion-crete-anarchists-occupy-local-tv-station-video/)
Thessaloniki: Olympion cinema occupied (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/11/thessaloniki-olympion-cinema-occupied-video/)
“Let’s organise the implacability of human dignity” (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/11/lets-organise-the-implacability-of-human-dignity/)

Friday, Feb 10

Photos from Athens General Strike, day 1 (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/11/photos-from-the-general-strike-demonstration-in-athens-february-10-day-1/)
“So it’s final now” (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/11/so-its-final-now-statement-by-real-democracy-nowso-its-final-now/)
New memorandum agreement to come to parliament on Sunday or Monday (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/10/popular-mobilisations-in-greece-continue-as-rumours-regarding-the-date-of-the-voting-of-the-new-memorandum-go-wild/)
Mental Health workers occupying Ministry of Health issue statement (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/10/mental-health-workers-continue-the-occupation-of-the-ministry-of-health-statement-and-call-for-support/)
Videos from tonight’s General Strike, Athens (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/10/video-from-the-general-strike-demonstration-athens-feb-10/)
Updates from the General Strike demo, Athens, Feb 10 (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/10/general-strike-demonstration-athens-february-10/)
Building occupations (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/10/building-occupations-spread-ahead-of-the-general-strike-demonstration/) as of Feb 10 (AM)
Statement (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/10/statement-by-the-occupied-athens-law-school-february-9-in-order-to-liberate-ourselves-from-debt-we-must-destroy-the-economy/) by the anarchist occupation of the Law School (Feb 9)
48-hour General Strike (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/09/48-hour-general-strike-announced-for-february-10-11/) called for Feb 10-11
Full text (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/10/the-new-troika-agreement-full-text/) of the agreement of the “bailout” loan agreement between the troika and the greek government

bricolage

12th February 2012, 12:23

Olympiakos
http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/222.jpg

I'm pretty sure that's Panionios not Olympiakos.

miserable

12th February 2012, 12:44

edit

Sasha

12th February 2012, 16:48

50.000 on parliament square just got attacked, heavy clashes, at least 1 seriously injured protester...

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/12/syntagma-live-updates-from-syntagma-square-athens-feb-12-2012/

Sasha

12th February 2012, 17:14

Cops attempt to enter occupied lawschool, occupiers defend the building...

brigadista

12th February 2012, 18:09

watching live coverage online - will be interested in what greek comrades have to say-
looks like a LOT of people in syntagma sq - lot of teargas

the last donut of the night

12th February 2012, 20:22

The ultras will for the first time tomorrow join and fight togheter in Athens just like in Egypt. This has never happend in Greece before.

panathinaikos
http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/331.jpg
“In order to save the banks from bankruptcy, they’ve thrown us into poverty and unemployment. They sold off our country and all that belongs to us. Switch off your TV, take to the streets, for victory!”

Olympiakos
http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/222.jpg
“Tomorrow you’be caught by surprise”

omg nothing like football and radicalism together :wub:

GoddessCleoLover

12th February 2012, 20:25

Is the KKE now supporting militant action or are they continuing to discourage militancy?

Sasha

12th February 2012, 20:30

Guess....

Sasha

12th February 2012, 20:35

Several banks and the accounts office are burning, cops are firing rubberbullets, thousands still fighting.

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/333.jpg

The Douche

12th February 2012, 20:41

I heard some parliamentary ministers are resigning.

Grenzer

12th February 2012, 20:50

Is the KKE now supporting militant action or are they continuing to discourage militancy?

I think it's safe to assume the latter. When has the KKE done anything for the Greek workers? They're too busy collaborating with the bourgeois state and praising pictures of Stalin to be bothered marching on the capital or anything like that.

Tim Cornelis

12th February 2012, 20:55

panathinaikos

“In order to save the banks from bankruptcy, they’ve thrown us into poverty and unemployment. They sold off our country and all that belongs to us. Switch off your TV, take to the streets, for victory!”

"they sold out our country which belongs to us"

Sounds pretty patriotic...

Olympiakos

“Tomorrow you’be caught by surprise”

Well if you announce it so publicly it isn't much of a suprise is it, geez...:lol:

Sasha

12th February 2012, 21:31

dozens of banks still burning, gun shop looted, athens town hall briefly occupied, situation seems completely out of control: http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/12/athens-the-long-night-of-february-12-burning-and-looting-tonight/

Sasha

12th February 2012, 22:17

00:07 Demonstrators attacked the Exarcheia Police station a few minutes ago.
23:45 Smoke from tear gas and burning buildings has covered central Athens. Clashes are still going on and the streets are full of people. Earlier, a lot of demonstrators tried to attack the house of the former Prime Minister Costas Simitis in the upper class district of Kolonaki (Anagnostopoulou st.)they clashed with the police units guarding the house.
Earlier a group of demonstrators tried to invade Acropolis police station. The police officers managed to protect the police station but several of them were injured while police vehicles in front of the station were burnt.
Early in the afternoon a DELTA motorcycle police unit, was trapped by demonstrators: people held a rope across the street throwing down the speeding motorcycles.
:thumbup1:

artanis17

12th February 2012, 22:21

Big respect ! My heart is with Greek people !

Sasha

12th February 2012, 22:55

Voting has started...

La GuaneÃ±a

12th February 2012, 23:03

Things are really picking up, hope it doesn't die out overnight.

Lenina Rosenweg

12th February 2012, 23:05

Sasha

12th February 2012, 23:10

The memorandum passed, statement from the occupied lawschool:

It was decided by the assembly of the occupied law school for the occupation to continue.

We call all the people to take to the streets, to keep on fighting!

Nothing has ended, everything begins now.

The law school is a centre of struggle and will continue to be so!

humdog

12th February 2012, 23:12

Are the KKE on one hand and the Greek anarchists on the other hand doing their jobs?

Well last time this happened the KKE sided with the police forces.

RedAnarchist

12th February 2012, 23:15

Os Cangaceiros

12th February 2012, 23:30

Voting has started...

Haha, quite a change in the tone of news..."Athens is in flames! Looting, riots, arson! Riot cops being beaten in the streets! OK, now voting has begun."

The question remains, why is Greece still capitalist? What is preventing workers from permanently occupying bank headquarters, government ministries, and workplaces? Why can't there begin permanent occupations and the long delayed and desperately needed transistion to a post-capitalist society?

Greece has had, I believe, a dozen general strikes within the past 2 years. The country is now in flames. So why does capitalism still prevail?

Are the KKE on one hand and the Greek anarchists on the other hand doing their jobs?

The KKE wants to sit their fat asses down in the halls of power. The anarchists mainly focus their efforts on the almost ritualistic street battles with riot cops and the occassionally propane-bomb arson. I don't think that Greece would stop being capitalist even if an anti-capitalist party achieved power, though. Perhaps we'd all be treated to the government telling the IMF and EU to "sit and spin", though, that would certainly be refreshing.

Unsurprisingly, it passed. I was watching a broadcast of a Greek television station online (not being able to understand Greek, I didn't have much idea what was being said), and from inside the Parliament building it looks all calm and serene (relatively speaking, anyway). I bet they don't have a single clue about the anger of the Greek people right outside that building.

It is puzzling how, in some of these events, a half a million people can be marshalled out into Athen's streets but the affairs of government just keep right on humming along.

RedAnarchist

12th February 2012, 23:34

It is puzzling how, in some of these events, a half a million people can be marshalled out into Athen's streets but the affairs of government just keep right on humming along.

It's one part delusion, one part ignorance and one part arrogance.

ellipsis

12th February 2012, 23:44

time for international brigades to greece?

Ele'ill

12th February 2012, 23:47

Time for Greek solidarity marches- west coast US ready?

Ele'ill

12th February 2012, 23:52

There are some really nice photos up at occupied london.

http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/13.jpg
http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/121.jpg

ellipsis

13th February 2012, 00:09

Time for Greek solidarity marches- west coast US ready?

aye

Bostana

13th February 2012, 00:10

I do feel bad for Greece, but I don't think the European Union arguing with each other whether to help Greece or not isn't gonna get anything done.

Sasha

13th February 2012, 00:15

They are not helping Greece they are helping themselves. Countries default all the time, look at argentina

Bostana

13th February 2012, 00:19

They are not helping Greece they are helping themselves. Countries default all the time, look at argentina

Good Point

Dunk

13th February 2012, 00:20

What current Greek organizations in your opinion (if any) - whether groups, assemblies - carry with it the potential of legitimacy and the ability to implement a communist praxis? An implementation which is defined by control of the working class?

Should I drop the premise of "Greek organizations?" Do we often mistakenly expect revolution to begin afar, and spread like a fire from region to region, until it reaches us? Or does the explanation of why, in a region which has had a dozen General Strikes in a small period of time cannot bring about an Indefinite Strike include that the international working class has not acted on behalf of Greek workers?

Am I missing an obvious lesson in all this? Are we? Plenty of you are much sharper than I am, and I'm very much looking forward to what you all have to say. Perhaps I'm more ignorant than I suspect.

The only thing on my mind right now is how revolution can begin, and how it can spread - how Greeks and all of us can expect to take control of our own lives, and how to aid and replicate this process everywhere.

Sasha

13th February 2012, 01:11

report of the saturday:

Greece: Second day of nationwide protest mobilization

Nieuws (https://www.indymedia.nl/nieuwsarchief), gepost door: nn op 12/02/2012 02:02:36
Wanneer: 12/02/2012 - 15:26 (https://www.indymedia.nl/event/2012/02/12/month/nieuws)
- The Treaty of Varkiza is broken; we are at war again -
Today, February 12th (03.00 GMT+2), 67 years have been completed since the 1945 Treaty of Varkiza, where the Stalinist KKE (‘Communist Party of Greece’) betrayed armed struggle and thousands of fighters of the Civil War in exchange for its legality in the new regime. How much longer can the people take to the streets bare-handed against the totalitarian regime? Misery or revolution the dilemma lingering in air… an outspoken cry for freedom.
https://www.indymedia.nl/indyfiles/imagecache/cropstrip/raw/propylaea-anarchist-block-feb-11.jpg
https://www.indymedia.nl/indyfiles/imagecache/cropstrip/raw/livadia-feb-111.jpg
The February 11th, second day of the nationwide general strike, began with several public and governance buildings, such as town halls, being occupied by people who were calling for the immediate withdrawal from the new ‘bailout’ agreement. There have also been voices not yet heard, inside and outside prison walls across Greece, calling for the complete destruction of the democratic junta, towards social revolution.
Since three days, in downtown Athens, the Law School is occupied by anarchists/anti-authoritarians and other supporters, and the Ministry of Health is occupied by workers in the mental and special health-care sector. These protesters, apart from defending their labour rights, also defend the right of tens of thousands of mentally ill people to exist and interact with us all. They are struggling collectively against the austerity measures that deprive mental patients of the basic means for survival. The latter are among the people on the precipice of permanent exclusion, since the capitalist world regards them as ‘useless’, ‘unproductive’, ‘troubled’. In spite of the non-radical claims submitted by the strikers so far, their occupation of the Ministry of Health deserves the widest possible solidarity, as they have revealed, above all, the stark reality of institutionalized social cannibalism in this country and beyond.
By 12.00 GMT+2 the occupied Law School was surrounded by heavy police forces (police squads and plain-clothes cops). The cops checked even bags of those who were trying to reach the occupation. During the morning, 40 comrades remained there, while the free radio station 98 FM transmitted from a pirate studio inside the building, which was set up since yesterday (contact phone number +30 210 3688703). The protest march started from Propylaea, on Panepistimiou Street. Meanwhile, the websites of athens.indymedia.org, as well as the free radio station 1431am.org in Thessaloniki were not operating, but one could enter chat.koumbit.net and join irc #athens. The free radio station of Mytilini re-transmitted updates from 98 FM live broadcast.
Omonia metro station was open, so a (rather numb) crowd headed to Syntagma square. At 13.00 all demonstrator blocks arrived at Syntagma. The turnout was not the expected, given the seriousness of the situation. The Stalinists of PAME walked off on Filellinon Street while police squads were in front of the Monument of the Unknown Soldier and the parliament.
At the same time, a total of 600 antifascist protesters attended the midday demonstration against conscription and compulsory military service, which started from the area of Thissio and ended in Canningos Square, central Athens. One of the many antimilitarist slogans chanted was: NO SOLDIER EVER AND ANYWHERE, WE WON’T GO TO WAR FOR THE BOSSES!
In Thessaloniki nearly 1,000 demonstrators (mainly base unions) marched from Kamara to Aristotelous Square, where demonstrators occupied the building of ‘Olympion’, a historic cinema in the city centre, in order to hold an open assembly and use the space as a coordination base for the struggle in the days ahead.
In Athens, an estimated 5,000 were protesting at 14.30 in front of the parliament. Before the demo’s ending, it was reported that two protesters were detained outside the Law School (probably having no IDs). In the lower part of Syntagma, despite the calls for strike mobilization, Ermou Street (one of the main shopping areas in Athens) was packed with prospective buyers, motivated solely by their consumerist compulsion or touristic urge. With street traffic soon back to normal, the last demonstrator block withdrew to Propylaea, on Panepistimiou Street. Soon, the anarchist block joined the occupied Law School. Some few remained for a while in front of the Monument of the Unknown Soldier, face to face with police squads who were still lined up guarding their bosses.
As soon as access to athens.indymedia.org was fully restored, news was received from Mytilini (Lesvos Island), where nearly 200 people participated in a quiet rally. Comrades shared out texts for the intensification of class war, in a city with all enterprises running (and the same strikebreaking practice occurred in other towns, too).
In the city of Patras around 30 anarchists expropriated staples from a supermarket, sharing out the goods among people gathered at a nearby open-air market. Later on, during the protest march, attended by nearly 1,000 people, attacks were carried out on ATMs and surveillance cameras in several banks. A pawn shop was also attacked with stones, and the windows of a branch of chain fashion store ZARA were smashed —from the previous day, February 10th, two more gold-buying shops (loan sharks) were attacked in Korinthou Street and Olgas square. The cops fired tear gas at the crowd, but protesters managed to regroup in Georgiou square. The demo reached the occupied prefecture and returned to the same square. The anarchist block marched until it dispersed outside the squatted space Parartima.
Nearly 400 people attended the evening gathering at Syntagma, by 17.30, against the enactment of the multinational ACTA by the European Parliament. The so-called Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement is expected to be voted in June 2012 and to be ratified by the Greek parliament, too (more worldwide mobilizations against ACTA are due to follow). The protesters handed out thousands of pamphlets against the global Internet surveillance and criminalization of the free flow of ideas.
Later in the evening, at around 20.45, an open assembly began in the occupied Law School (entrance from Solonos Street). The squatters have urged every supporter to join the activities of the occupation, which operates as a basis for the dissemination and coordination of resistance.
In Ilion, northwest Athens, 150 people participated in a local manifestation. During the march, slogans were written on facades of several banks, the town hall and the local branches of the two major parliamentary parties, PASOK and Nea Dimokratia.
On Naxos Island 30 members of the autonomous assembly of the city of Naxos gathered in the port and shared out texts which spoke of popular revolt.
Apart from local demos in various neighbourhoods (especially in Attica) propagating Sunday’s anti-regime protests in Greek cities, as well as several supermarket expropriations, some of the most noticeable direct actions over the last two days were those in Livadia (10/2), where militant antifascists interrupted an indoor gathering of thugs from the ultra-right party LA.OS., and in Heraklion (Crete Island, 11/2), where the studio of the local corporate CretaTV was occupied at noon by anarchists/anti-authoritarians during the news broadcast, disseminating a call for the general strike —main theme on screen read ’capitalism or revolution’. After this direct action, the same group headed to Alikarnassos prisons, where the comrades remained for half an hour chanting solidarity slogans for the prisoners in struggle.
Original article: http://en.contrainfo.espiv.net/2012/02/12/greece-second-day-of-nationwid... (http://en.contrainfo.espiv.net/2012/02/12/greece-second-day-of-nationwide-protest-mobilization-the-treaty-of-varkiza-is-broken-we-are-at-war-again/)

Die Neue Zeit

13th February 2012, 01:16

The KKE wants to sit their fat asses down in the halls of power. The anarchists mainly focus their efforts on the almost ritualistic street battles with riot cops and the occassionally propane-bomb arson. I don't think that Greece would stop being capitalist even if an anti-capitalist party achieved power, though. Perhaps we'd all be treated to the government telling the IMF and EU to "sit and spin", though, that would certainly be refreshing.

That brings this question of mine up: Why can't Greece just default like Argentina did when it gave the IMF the middle finger? Why is nobody looking to Iceland for a model on popular reaction to government ineptitude?

Sasha

13th February 2012, 01:20

they will have to leave the euro which would be excellent for tourism and industry (so also "good" for the workers) but bad for the bankers and the politicians who conected their political future to it.

GiantMonkeyMan

13th February 2012, 01:23

That brings this question of mine up: Why can't Greece just default like Argentina did when it gave the IMF the middle finger?

Because they're tied into the Euro; potentially their defaulting could bring down the rest of the Eurozone with them. Germany and the like are dedicated to propping up Greece in order to prevent this, no matter how badly the Greek workers have to suffer for it.

Solidarity to Greek protestors! I hope there are more occupations and more people seizing control of their workplaces.

GoddessCleoLover

13th February 2012, 01:28

FSL

13th February 2012, 09:00

Unsurprisingly, it passed. I was watching a broadcast of a Greek television station online (not being able to understand Greek, I didn't have much idea what was being said), and from inside the Parliament building it looks all calm and serene (relatively speaking, anyway). I bet they don't have a single clue about the anger of the Greek people right outside that building.

Among the things they were saying in such a calm manner was that they intend to vote in favour because Greece is worth saving, not being burnt.

Generally, when the dilemma put forward by the government, the media, economists etc was "it's this or chaos" some people went out of their way to bring chaos.
It is my opinion that them as well as those who cheered for them are beyond help.

That brings this question of mine up: Why can't Greece just default like Argentina did when it gave the IMF the middle finger? Why is nobody looking to Iceland for a model on popular reaction to government ineptitude?
Why are you asking that on what is supposed to be a revolutionary left forum?
Was there a workers' revolution in any of those countries?

To put your queries aside though we do have a fair share of people who want to copy what Argentina did (default, have a huge recession, let the salaries collapse, and all these almost immediately so that "growth" will start again sooner and our income will start "rising" again after reaching the bottom of the abyss).

The question remains, why is Greece still capitalist? What is preventing workers from permanently occupying bank headquarters, government ministries, and workplaces? Why can't there begin permanent occupations and the long delayed and desperately needed transistion to a post-capitalist society?

Greece has had, I believe, a dozen general strikes within the past 2 years. The country is now in flames. So why does capitalism still prevail?

Are the KKE on one hand and the Greek anarchists on the other hand doing their jobs?
Everyone is doing their jobs, at least what they think their job is, but it turns out convincing people to fight for a socialist revolution is a quite difficult task.

That's why Greece is still capitalist. Because the majority of the workers aren't in favour of or positively indifferent to communism yet.

Triple A

13th February 2012, 09:59

I heard on the news Syntagma sq. had a banner with the portuguese flag saying venceremos (we will win) :thumbup1:

thriller

13th February 2012, 15:20

Just wanted to say I woke up today and saw the cover of my local paper and the picture was a building on fire and anarchists attacking cops. Sometimes I get so down on the struggle and want to give up, then Greece is there to lift my spirits in the morning. Solidarity from Wisconsin.

Sasha

13th February 2012, 15:24

A summary of anti-austerity demonstrations of 12/02/2012 & some videos (http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/2012/02/13/a-summary-of-athens-anti-austerity-demonstration-of-12022012-some-videos/)

Monday, February 13, 2012
There are various estimations about the number of the people concentrated on the streets and squares of the country. Athens had anything over 500,000 people on the streets, it is not easy to estimate it, but before the attack of the police every street leading to Syntagma and the square were packed, with thousands more coming from the neighbourhoods on foot or by buses and trains. Half an hour before the demo one could see the metro stations and the bus stops full of people waiting to get on a vehicle that would bring them to the centre. Every city saw rallies and mass marches, with Heraclion of Crete, a city that holds a record in the recent wave of suicides, having a 30,000-strong march. Demonstrations alla round the country turned violent, with people destroying banks or occupying governmental buildings, e.g. in Volos the branch of Eurobank, the Inland Revenue Offices and the town hall were torched or in Corfu people attacked to the offices of their region’s MPs, trashing them, the town hall of Rhodes was occupied during the demo and still is occupied, to mention but a few of such actions.
Police did several preemptive arrests in the morning hours before the start of the demonstration. Several activists were attacked by police officers in plain clothes and were detained as soon as they came out of their houses, while it was obvious since very early that police wanted to keep people away from the parliament. In there the new austerity package (an over 600-page document that was given to the MPs 24 hours in advance with the advice to vote for it before Monday morning when the stock markets will open) was being “discussed”. Early afternoon when the occupiers of Law School tried to march from the School to Syntagma the police attacked to them breaking the block, while they attempted to raid the School several times during the night, using also rubber bullets. Well before the arrival of most demonstrators who were still on their way, the police attacked en masse the crowd in Syntagma Square using physical violence, chemical gases and shock grenades. After the attack a big part of the demonstration was concentrated on Amalias st, Fillelinon st, Ermou st, Mitropoleos st and Karagiorgi Servias st. People battled with police for over 5 hours in their effort to return to Syntagma. Other people erected big barricades across Korai sq. on both Stadiou st and Panepistimiou st. and fought trying to reach Syntagma or defend themselves from police attacks. On Panepistimiou st. police concentrated much of its forces on the barricade in front of Athens University and people clashed head to head defending their barricade. DELTA motorcycle police raided several times the crowd, esp. in Mitropoleos street, MAT riot police did the same several times but also things went the other way around. Besides the barricades and the substantial groupings of people, demonstrators broke in various smaller groups that clashed with small groups of police or walked around searching for a barricade or to join a larger group.
After midnight the majority of the parliamentarians (199) voted for the new austerity memorandum that -among other measures- includes the drop of salaries by 22% and drops the minimum salary at about 400 Euro per month, while unemployment rate has been doubled (over 20% in Nov 2011) within 16 months.
74 demonstrators were arrested and over 50 people injured by the police were hospitalised, the number of detainees remains unknown.
Several banks, governmental buildings and two police departments (Acropolis and Exarchia depts.) were attacked by demonstrators during the night, while Athens city hall was occupied, but police concentrated forces invaded the building and arrested the occupiers. Over 40 buildings were burnt in Athens, while occupations of public buildings still are holding all around Greece. The Law School occupation issued a statement in early morning of 13/02/2012: “It was decided by the assembly of the Law School occupation that the occupation continues. We call everyone on the streets to continue the struggle. Nothing ended, everything now starts, the Law School is a centre of the struggle and as such it will remain”.
some videos:

aWEVNGcwInE

dJ4z4nLEgIc

2tbalUtakoA

KurtFF8

13th February 2012, 18:12

Since people have been wondering what the KKE's stance was, I figured it would be worth while to let them speak for themselves:

The People’s anger will shatter the PASOK-ND coalition government (http://inter.kke.gr/News/news2012/2012-02-13-info)

Hundreds of thousands of demonstrators shouted all across the country: “ The government with the criminal political line must leave now, together with the Troika. No memorandum must be signed. No new agreement. The plutocracy must pay.”
The demonstration of PAME in Athens was stunning. Very large demonstrations all across the country.
The workers fearlessly dealt with the organized plan of the state to repress the demonstration.

With magnificent rallies in Athens and dozens of Greek cities, the working class, the other popular strata and youth demanded that the new memorandum not be approved in Parliament., giving a decisive response to the anti-people political line and the government blackmail. This was the largest demonstration of recent decades, characterized by the great mass rally of PAME and the class-oriented trade unions with demands against the Loan Agreement, for the overthrow of the anti-people political line, disengagement from the EU with the unilateral cancellation of the debt, with people’s power so that the country’s wealth can be utilised and provide prosperity for the people.

The speaker at PAME’s rally, C. Katsiotis noted in his speech: “The people must not fear them, nor be quiet and allow themselves to be flayed alive. It is of no importance whether this happens inside or outside of the Euro, with a controlled or uncontrolled bankruptcy. What is of vital importance is that the people decide that they will make no more sacrifices for the plutocracy, to fill the treasure vaults of the capitalists, while they and their children will be submerged in absolute poverty and destitution.”

It should be noted that the new measures remove three months salary annually from the workers (22% reduction) and 4 months’ salary from newly hired workers (32% reduction), aside from other measures and the heavy taxes which remove even more from what has remained of the workers’ income.

The demonstrators remained for over 6 hours in the streets, organized, formed into their huge contingents with arms linked together, without fear, despite the orgy of repression and the activity of the provocateurs who burnt buildings in the city centre. It was a plan of savage and naked state repression which utilized the hooded ones. The state repression apparatus attacked with tonnes of tear gas (it is indicative that early in the evening the teargas supplies of the forces of repression were exhausted) and stun grenades, entirely unprovoked, hundreds of thousands of demonstrators who had flooded the city centre yesterday, when the new memorandum was being discussed in Parliament.

The plan of the government was obvious: That the people should not reach Syntagma Sqare; to break the demonstration. An additional goal of this plan, which included dozens of fires and material destruction in the centre of the capital, was for the working people of Athens to submit to the new anti-people measures, to conceal from the cameras the tens of thousands of workers, who demonstrated in the contingents of PAME, as well as to disperse the mass demonstration, as well as to pass the intimidating dilemmas of the “salvation of the country” or the “destruction” and “chaos” of a possible bankruptcy.

In its statement the KKE condemned a “state plan to repress and intimidate the people. At the time when the parties of the plutocracy and the EU predatory alliance extort and threaten the people voting for a memorandum for the people’s bankruptcy, various mechanisms burn buildings, in order to create the scene of destruction which they are bringing to the people (…) The riot police and the hooded ones operated in a coordinated fashion against the magnificent demonstrations of the people in order to disperse them. (…) They use lies, blackmail, repression and provocations, in order to subdue the people. But they are helpless if they find themselves face to face with a people who are determined and organized to deal with them, to fight for and win their just cause.

The KKE calls on the working class, the people, the youth to a state of readiness and vigilance to impede any attempt to take authoritarian measures.”

Inside the Parliament during the discussion of the barbaric measures of the Loan Agreement the Parliamentary group of the KKE, with its ideological and political superiority, exposed the blackmailing dilemmas used by the government, PASOK, ND, the Media concerning the inevitability of the implementation of the Loan Agreement so that the already bankrupt people do not go bankrupt. Through their interventions the communist MPs, demonstrating why no MP has the right to vote for the barbaric measures which wipe out the popular and working class income, exerted pressure and sharpened the contradictions to a great extent which manifested themselves in the bourgeois parties and were expressed by their serious losses in the vote. 22 MPs of PASOK and 21 MPs of ND opposed the line of voting for the agreement and were expelled (including current and former ministers). The nationalist party LAOS which had stated that it would vote no to the loan agreement did not participate in the vote. 2 of its MPs voted for the Loan Agreement. It is indicative that overall 199 out of the 278 MPs voted for the Loan Agreement. 74 MPs voted against.

Due to the pressure exerted by the KKE, the bourgeois parties used anticommunism and wretchedness which marked amongst other things the provocative speech of E. Venizelos, Vice-president of the government and cadre of PASOK, that provoked a strong reaction by the whole parliamentary group of the KKE.

The MPs of the KKE stood up and protested, they dynamically answered the blackmails while the volume of the wretched draft law was symbolically thrown from the benches of the Parliamentary Group of the KKE at the benches of the ministers.

The General Secretary of the CC of the KKE, Aleka Papariga, took the floor and mentioned amongst other things:

“You are literally trying to subjugate the minds of the people who suffer, of the poor people by means of an unprecedented ideological intimidation. Excuse me, I do not identify you with him, but Goebbels would be envious of you. A big bankruptcy is coming! Whom are you talking to? To the people who have already been bankrupted? No, we are not interested in a Greece which will have been saved and the people will have been bankrupted. […]Since the morning you have been continuously talking about destruction even about civil war[… ]Even the state television suddenly remembered the civil war […] We will answer when the time comes. But you are accountable when you pose such issues to the people. You have the deadlines of the Troika and the Commission. And I am saying that such ultimatums were not issued even on the eve of world wars. […] You are provoking us.

We have been listening to you all day talking about war, telling us that we will have no pensions, that we will receive vouchers, or I don’t know what and at the end you are talking about civil war. Now who is triggering the situation? We have our limits. We are polite but we are not stupid. […] Therefore we say to the people the following: the deep bankruptcy will come, either with the euro or the drachma, we cannot know this in advance.

Secondly, even if Greece enhances its competitiveness other countries will develop even more. In the best case it might climb up 2-3 positions. But this competitiveness will cost even more to the working people. Greece will be over-indebted for 150 years, as was the case with the loans of “independence” (…) in any case he who is down must fear no fall. The people will not avoid bankruptcy no matter what they do, even if they accept to work for free, for one, two or three years. Our position is: struggles which might prevent the worst. But in order to do this the people’s movement must be directed towards the succession of this political system by the political system of the workers’ and people’s power. Disengagement and unilateral cancellation of the debt; there is no other solution for the people”.

The parliamentary group of the KKE also refuted in a well-substantiated way the blackmails of the government:

“Today the MPs bear a special responsibility as you approve a law so that the working people will have to make ends meet on a salary of 489 euros given the high cost of living and the young people will have to live on a salary of 440 while at the same time you agree that only a small section of the unemployed will receive 330. […] No one has the right to condemn the working people to a salary of 400 euros. Are you going to say that “we will bury you alive for your own good?” (…) Is your concern merely the currency that will express the people’s poverty? The system has exhausted its historical limits. It cannot even provide a piece of bread in order to buy off consciousnesses. […] The social wealth today is incredibly high and you ask the people to live like they did in the Middle Ages. We are saying to all of them to lift their heads up, that they have nothing to lose but their chains.”

As a "M-L" I guess, I think these attacks on all "hooded ones" as provocateurs is a bit over the top to say the least.

There's a difference between criticizing the black bloc tactic and what this is.

pax et aequalitas

13th February 2012, 18:39

oh ffs not again... I remember the last time they pulled the "hooded anarcho-fascist cop provocateurs" card. Why do they keep on using that. I mean if you wanna make stuff up to make others look bad and you look good, at least trying something better.

The Douche

13th February 2012, 18:40

If every anarchist is a cop, then every KKE politician is a supporter of austerity.

KurtFF8

13th February 2012, 18:46

If every anarchist is a cop, then every KKE politician is a supporter of austerity.

Indeed, and such an accusation against the KKE would also be absurd considering the KKE, in the electoral/legislative arena, has been quite opposed to this package.

Just like the anarchists have clearly been quite opposed to the state in this struggle.

I don't think we should "throw the baby out with the bathwater" in our condemnations of the KKE though. They clearly do real organizing amongst the working class that is important, however. Their position on the anarchists, which should be seen as allies in this struggle, is quite problematic to say the least though.

Ele'ill

13th February 2012, 18:48

I may be overspeaking here and I apologize if I am but it seems like the "hooded anarcho-fascist cop provocateurs" are getting more positive attention, are successfully destabilizing the situation to tip in our favor away from the control of the police and are acting as a huge and only militant protective presence on the ground right now. Perhaps the KKE should use their pen-time to be taking notes- on how to utilize and work with this militant body of people.

Tim Cornelis

13th February 2012, 19:02

At first, when Greek anarchists took to the streets, I was "fuck yeah, resistance". Now after four years of consecutive riots by anarchists I am awaiting the next step, it's a little worn out now. I mean, what is the next step?

The Douche

13th February 2012, 19:03

Indeed, and such an accusation against the KKE would also be absurd considering the KKE, in the electoral/legislative arena, has been quite opposed to this package.

Just like the anarchists have clearly been quite opposed to the state in this struggle.

I don't think we should "throw the baby out with the bathwater" in our condemnations of the KKE though. They clearly do real organizing amongst the working class that is important, however. Their position on the anarchists, which should be seen as allies in this struggle, is quite problematic to say the least though.

I think the KKE's constant insistence that the anarchists are cops/doing the work of cops demonstrates their inability to deal with the anarchists politically.

I don't think that the KKE itself (meaning the rank and file) are all collaborators with the state and its actions. But I do believe that the KKE, as an organization, wants control of the government, and they want that control more than they want revolution.

FSL

13th February 2012, 19:14

You do realize the demo was dispersed right?
Isn't that the work of cops?

A while back people had made the claim that if it wasn't for PAME anarchists backed by thousands whould have "invaded the parliament". I said that that wasn't what would happen. The crowd would just disperse and "riots" would ensue like it happens every time.

What happened yesterday?
Hundreds of thousands of people never even made it to the place where the demo was held and you're sitting in your comfy chairs, praising pictures with flaming buildings like you suffer from a really severe case of perversion whereas I'm still here, still not knowing whether I'll be able to afford food in a month from now.

You think this is what an uprising looks like? This is what class struggle looks like? This is what working class militancy looks like? Burning and looting? You think this is "getting positive attention"?

The Douche

13th February 2012, 19:18

Ele'ill

13th February 2012, 19:21

Hundreds of thousands of people never even made it to the place where the demo was held and you're sitting in your comfy chairs, praising pictures with flaming buildings like you suffer from a really severe case of perversion whereas I'm still here, still not knowing whether I'll be able to afford food in a month from now.

You're not the only one suffering and struggle isn't isolated to you and your immediate area. Regardless of where else events are taking place I certainly am allowed an opinion on it.

You think this is what an uprising looks like? This is what class struggle looks like? This is what working class militancy looks like? Burning and looting? You think this is "getting positive attention"?

Yeah, I think whenever stuff like this happens it gets positive attention and I meant from leftists all over the world as several users have mentioned in this thread and other threads that it's uplifting to see people take to the streets.

Sasha

13th February 2012, 19:27

No sitting in parliament, legitimizing the bourgeois system by performing the task of the loyal opposition, how is that class militancy, class struggle? I just watched a bunch of completely normal greek elderly workers on dutch national television saying everybody should have been on the street burning the whole system down, when asked who should be elected the comming elections one answered "hundreds of nooses".
Now I feel for the Greeks that they are forced to be the first to suffer the full naked aggression of the enemy in this new escalation in the classwar but I'm sure we will all rather sooner than later be in that position and it will be only in a burned out parliament we will conquer the power...

FSL

13th February 2012, 19:43

Uh...yeah, thats pretty much what social war looks like...
Yes? On what occasion? When did revolutionaries burn and loot?

Yeah, I think whenever stuff like this happens it gets positive attention and I meant from leftists all over the world as several users have mentioned in this thread and other threads that it's uplifting to see people take to the streets.
Pushing you deeper down into a theoretical abyss is hardly a cause of celebration.

No sitting in parliament, legitimizing the bourgeois system by performing the task of the loyal opposition, how is that class militancy, class struggle? I just watched a bunch of completely normal greek elderly workers on dutch national television saying everybody should have been on the street burning the whole system down, when asked who should be elected the comming elections one answered "hundreds of nooses".
Now I feel for the Greeks that they are forced to be the first to suffer the full naked aggression of the enemy in this new escalation in the classwar but I'm sure we will all rather sooner than later be in that position and it will be only in a burned out parliament we will conquer the power...

When did we ever conquer power in a burnt out parliament?
When did we ever conquer power in a burnt out cinema?

I know what people* here think and I know how angry they are. You seem to think that that equals class conscience? Or maybe we don't need class conscience. Maybe all we need is rage and flames to satisfy it? Well, we can't eat that. People who are wrong should be changing what they think and we should be helping them. Not just crawling behind them thinking that is a revolution.

*Of course the flame rituals are hardly a work of enraged former petty bourgeois who are losing their world. They are the work of who-knows? and it was just like that many times now, regardless of the pressure put on peoples' livelihoods.

Sasha

13th February 2012, 19:49

I know what people* here think and I know how angry they are. You seem to think that that equals class conscience? Or maybe we don't need class conscience. Maybe all we need is rage and flames to satisfy it? Well, we can't eat that. People who are wrong should be changing what they think and we should be helping them. Not just crawling behind them thinking that is a revolution.

I assume you never read a single bit of autonomist or insurectionary theory? Ever set foot in a squatted social center?

They are already down in the mud busy building a new world while through social programs trying to leave no-one behind, which is nice change from the KKE leadership that are firmly with their faces in the trough of the bourgeoisy serving parlaimentary system

FSL

13th February 2012, 19:54

I assume you never read a single bit of autonomist or insurectionary theory? Ever set foot in a squatted social center?

You could smell autonomist and insurectionary theory in the air last night.
It was something like smoke mixed with teargas.

The Douche

13th February 2012, 20:02

You could smell autonomist and insurectionary theory in the air last night.
It was something like smoke mixed with teargas.

Uh, yeah bro, thats part of insurrection. I prefer it to the smell of marxism-leninism, which is something like stale air in government buildings, fresh ink on new laws, and the blood of any workers who dare to demand direct control over their lives.

Sinister Cultural Marxist

13th February 2012, 20:03

Expropriating a cinema, a place where workers make a living and people enjoy movies, would make much more sense than torching it down. Especially if it is of historical value, which is something of collective value that only the community itself as a whole should have a right to destroy. The problem with the destruction of such property is that it is the arbitrary decision of a few people based on their own personal values, without anybody else to object. It is no less arbitrary and unjust for the people who work at and enjoy those buildings than a few bourgeois people demolishing that building because they want to build a high end housing development and because they happen to claim the property rights of the area. If you really want to torch something, at least be discerning enough to pick good targets.

The KKE does take a pretty pathetic line when it comes to the non-KKE left though from what I've seen. They rely on broad generalizations and unfair, theoretically inept assumptions to criticize the others when what is needed is real leadership. Real Leftwing solidarity is preferable to this tired old bickering between various sectarian tendencies and parties, especially in such an explosive moment.

human strike

13th February 2012, 20:09

I dunno, riots seem pretty participatory to me. I don't think you can accuse them of being the "arbitrary decision of a few people".

http://www.adbusters.org/blogs/blackspot-blog/rioting-revolutionary.html

Leftsolidarity

13th February 2012, 20:22

time for international brigades to greece?

I 2nd that

The Douche

13th February 2012, 20:27

I 2nd that

If the Greek government really looses control of the people, I assume EU peacekeepers will be deployed, I'd say it'd be more helpful for us to stay home and disrupt the movement of troops/aid or whatever.

Ele'ill

13th February 2012, 20:33

Pushing you deeper down into a theoretical abyss is hardly a cause of celebration.

What does this mean?

Leftsolidarity

13th February 2012, 20:34

If the Greek government really looses control of the people, I assume EU peacekeepers will be deployed, I'd say it'd be more helpful for us to stay home and disrupt the movement of troops/aid or whatever.

Very good point

FSL

13th February 2012, 20:37

Uh, yeah bro, thats part of insurrection. I prefer it to the smell of marxism-leninism,
Workers prefer the latter though, sucks to be you.

FSL

13th February 2012, 20:39

What does this mean?
It means that if leftists around the world see riots in Greece and go "yeah, I'd like to do that too" that isn't helping anyone.

What would help is organizing in unions, educating themselves, engaging in political action. But no TV station would ever broadcast something like that. They'll stick to the burning building.

FSL

13th February 2012, 20:43

Real Leftwing solidarity is preferable to this tired old bickering between various sectarian tendencies and parties, especially in such an explosive moment.
This is a mythical concept. Solidarity is built as a result of common interests. Workers, the self employed etc these can show solidarity to each other.

There is no "leftwing solidarity". There have been numerous clashes among let's say anarchists and marxist-leninists and not because people on the two sides were "narrow-minded" or "sectarian".

Ele'ill

13th February 2012, 20:56

It means that if leftists around the world see riots in Greece and go "yeah, I'd like to do that too" that isn't helping anyone.

I'd have to say that yeah it would help out a lot if they did.

What would help is organizing in unions,

This is not a dig towards the concept of unions but currently? Like which unions cause I'm not really interested in a dream scenario wish-list example where union bureaucracy actually works in the favor of workers from a revolutionary socialist perspective. I'll take the current scenario where people are quite a bit pissed off at having legitimate attempts at organizing turn into weak-ass compromises as if the ruling class is the victim and we're walking on egg shells not to hurt their feelings. This is class war, so these pissed off people have taken it upon themselves to march, and attack the police presence and engage in direct action against the banks etc... Sometimes I wonder why people think all this militancy is something other than acts of self defense.

educating themselves, engaging in political action.

Both of these are obviously done.

But no TV station would ever broadcast something like that. They'll stick to the burning building.

Because it's an actual event- regardless of their intentions.

The Douche

13th February 2012, 20:57

Workers prefer the latter though, sucks to be you.

:rolleyes:

Welshy

13th February 2012, 21:05

Workers prefer the latter though, sucks to be you.

And in the US the workers prefer the Democratic Party so that argument means shit. If I'm not mistaken the KKE/PAME have been holding these general strikes for what 4 years now and greece still isn't any closer to revolution. I personally don't think these riots are the form a workers revolution will take (and I disagree with burning work places, since our goal is to take them over not destroy them), but your methods haven't been anymore successful. If anything these riots increase the chance that there might be an armed conflict between at least a subsection working class.

FSL

13th February 2012, 21:25

And in the US the workers prefer the Democratic Party so that argument means shit. If I'm not mistaken the KKE/PAME have been holding these general strikes for what 4 years now and greece still isn't any closer to revolution. I personally don't think these riots are the form a workers revolution will take (and I disagree with burning work places, since our goal is to take them over not destroy them), but your methods haven't been anymore successful. If anything these riots increase the chance that there might be an armed conflict between at least a subsection working class.
Whereas the arguments on the brilliance of insurrectionary thought were perfectly convincing.

It is closer to a revolution. More workers want one, is there a better way to judge how close you are? And even those who aren't convinced on the need of revolution have changed their minds on many things that 4 years ago were a given. The majority now sees the EU for what it is when before people would think of it as the thing that guarantees prosperity. People haven't adopted the working class' agenda yet but they have moved very far away from the rulling class' agenda. That is a process that's been going on in people's heads. It's a longer one and produces less interesting photos but it is one that matters.

I'd have to say that yeah it would help out a lot if they did.
Really? How so?

This is not a dig towards the concept of unions but currently? Like which unions cause I'm not really interested in a dream scenario wish-list example where union bureaucracy actually works in the favor of workers from a revolutionary socialist perspective. I'll take the current scenario where people are quite a bit pissed off at having legitimate attempts at organizing turn into weak-ass compromises as if the ruling class is the victim and we're walking on egg shells not to hurt their feelings. This is class war, so these pissed off people have taken it upon themselves to march, and attack the police presence and engage in direct action against the banks etc... Sometimes I wonder why people think all this militancy is something other than acts of self defense.
So you are in favour of workers overthrowing capitalism right?

And what do you tell us? That "conservative unions" aren't worth joining? Then how on earth will they ever stop being conservative?
Maybe it frightens you that changing their direction in favour of the workers they represent is such a burdensome thing to do? Maybe it'd be so tiring to try and reason with all the workers there who think their boss looks after them? What do they know, right?

It's class war when it's a class doing it. Some pissed off people engaging in direct action isn't a class. You want to see the working class? You'll need to look for Democrat and Republican voters, or Labour and Tories voters or whatever depending where you live. That's where your class is.

Now you might feel like quitting before you start but guess what. It's the only way.

finnoafrican

13th February 2012, 21:51

time for international brigades to greece?
I 3rd that.

Leftsolidarity

13th February 2012, 22:16

This is a mythical concept. Solidarity is built as a result of common interests. Workers, the self employed etc these can show solidarity to each other.

There is no "leftwing solidarity". There have been numerous clashes among let's say anarchists and marxist-leninists and not because people on the two sides were "narrow-minded" or "sectarian".

Leftwing solidarity is a mythical concept? I do not mean to derail the thread and would gladly start a new one if you wish to explain your reasoning behind such a ridiculous claim.

I guess my name should be changed huh? :rolleyes:

Welshy

13th February 2012, 23:02

Whereas the arguments on the brilliance of insurrectionary thought were perfectly convincing.

It is closer to a revolution. More workers want one, is there a better way to judge how close you are? And even those who aren't convinced on the need of revolution have changed their minds on many things that 4 years ago were a given. The majority now sees the EU for what it is when before people would think of it as the thing that guarantees prosperity. People haven't adopted the working class' agenda yet but they have moved very far away from the rulling class' agenda. That is a process that's been going on in people's heads. It's a longer one and produces less interesting photos but it is one that matters.

Alright if the workers want more then what is the KKE doing to feed this need? You guys have already shown that you are capable of calling for large general strikes and putting on demos numbering over 100,000, but you can't keep doing that forever and it's pretty obvious that the ruling class of greece isn't really bothered by the general strikes and demos as the austerity packages keep passing. So what is the next step? I have the same question for the Greek anarchists.

Marvin the Marxian

13th February 2012, 23:26

When the anarchists rose up in Spain in July 1936, did they loot and burn? From what I've read*, they didn't. Instead they occupied and expropriated. They also didn't wait for government concessions. (They didn't overthrow the government, either, but that's another story.) A lot of them were armed, and even more were after seizing barracks. How many Greek workers and demonstrators are armed today?

* I'm by no means an expert here, so I apologize in advance if I don't have my facts straight.

Ravachol

13th February 2012, 23:38

Workers prefer the latter though, sucks to be you.

Yes, they preferred it so much that tanks had to be used to quell their enthusiasm in Hungary '56.

Sasha

14th February 2012, 00:10

How many Greek workers and demonstrators are armed today?

there are several armed urban-guerrilla groups active, ranging from several insurectionary anarchist ones (Conspiracy of Cells of Fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_of_Fire_Nuclei) being the most notable but there are "new" ones popping up almost every weekend, blowing up a ATM or copcar only to do the same next week on again a new name) to more classical illigalist like Revolutionary Struggle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Struggle), the now offically disbanded marxist 17th november (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_November) to the very weird nihilist revolutionary sects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect_of_Revolutionaries)who are by some regarded as provocateurs.
At greek demonstrations everyone has a group thats armed with bats and crash helmets (and i mean everyone including the KKE, the GoldenDawn nazi's, and even the youth of the governing social-democrats) but Anarchists/Anti-Authoritarians also use on a big scale molotovs, high intensity lasers and improvised explosives made of propane canisters but by the sounds of it they are arming themselves further:

23.05 GMT+2 A gun shop in Omonoia, Athens, has been looted.

and plenty a church or monastry got blown up or burned down in spain during the revolution, but its ofcourse mostly pre-revolution that revolutionaries grab for the tool of the propaganda of the deed, you may not agree with it but every revolutionary current had its "terrorist" factions.
and make no mistake, the buildings burned down in Greece by selfdeclared anarchists are in general consiously chosen symbolic targets, mostly banks but also copstations, taxoffices etc etc.
did/does other shit get burned as well? yes, but yesterday there where maybe up to 500.000 people on the streets, as much as i would love them all to be politicized anarchists/anti-autharitarians i'll leave it to the KKE/PAME to claim every pissed off greek as either adherents to their line or police provocateurs...

humdog

14th February 2012, 00:16

Workers prefer the latter though, sucks to be you.

*crickets*

Tim Cornelis

14th February 2012, 14:13

When did we ever conquer power in a burnt out parliament?

A Leninist advocating parliamentarianism?

A cinema burnt, the parliament did not. It should have been the other way around.

FSL

14th February 2012, 14:48

A Leninist advocating parliamentarianism?

A cinema burnt, the parliament did not. It should have been the other way around.

Like in Germany.
You didn't answer the question though. It has never happened.
Yet it has somehow achieved a legendary status in your mind for reasons you can't explain.

Leninism differs from social democracy in that it calls for a revolution and from left-wing opportunists in that it doesn't rely on sensationalizing, on revolutionary sloganeering, on empty in meaning "direct action".

Alright if the workers want more then what is the KKE doing to feed this need? You guys have already shown that you are capable of calling for large general strikes and putting on demos numbering over 100,000, but you can't keep doing that forever and it's pretty obvious that the ruling class of greece isn't really bothered by the general strikes and demos as the austerity packages keep passing. So what is the next step? I have the same question for the Greek anarchists.
The rulling class wasn't bothered by the flaming buildings, the demo never really started. And of course it's bothered by strikes as they hurt profits. The behaviour of some industrialists in the steel or food industry where workers are very active shows they've stopped feeling calm a while ago.

I think you're looking for something spectacular but conscience doesn't change in a moment. Right now organizing people in workplaces to fight the attempts to reduce wages is of great importance. That means grassroots work, not the kind that makes international headlines.

Leftsolidarity

14th February 2012, 15:04

As what you could call a "Leninist", I disagree with FSL.

Burn the fucker down.

PhoenixAsh

14th February 2012, 15:24

FSL

Right now the polls show no real substantial change in voting behaviour for the KKE as opposed to last elections. It is up only 2.5%. So whatever the KKE is doing isn't paying off in a situation in which you would expect a very fruitfull ground for spreading the KKE line.

But KKE/PAME do have infuence in the working class consciousness. And talking and organising is nice and all but by withdrawing aid and opposing the expression of working class initiatives and action. The KKE in its rejection to support diversity of tactics actually becomes an aid of the current system no matter if that is their true intention or not.

By its possition on this, either directly or indirectly, it is actually preventing the increase of class confidence, class awareness because it lends its voice to the burgeoisie condemnations of workers initiatives.

It shows the party is inflexible, dogmatic and impractical. And is not able to capitalise on the huge opportunity presented....and this does not bide well for the future.

Because WHEN are you DONE organising? When are you going to stop shouting at the side of the pond where the kid is drowning? When are you going to lead? When are you going to participate?

FSL

14th February 2012, 15:30

As what you could call a "Leninist", I disagree with FSL.

Burn the fucker down.

You're a pretty bad leninist then.

Leftsolidarity

14th February 2012, 15:34

You're a pretty bad leninist then.

Maybe to you. Good thing I don't really give a fuck what a dogmatic KKE supporter thinks. Why not respond to the good post hindsight made instead of giving your opinion of my levels of leninistyness?

FSL

14th February 2012, 15:39

Because WHEN are you DONE organising? When are you going to stop shouting at the side of the pond where the kid is drowning? When are you going to lead? When are you going to participate?

This takes as granted that "action" is burning buildings and looting clothes and mobile phones from stores. I disagree. So personally I guarantee you that I will never even take part in these actions, let alone attempt to lead them.

There is never an end in organising but if I can understand what you mean, the revolution happens when we can make it. And that doesn't mean "we, the communists" but "we, the workers, the self-employed etc". Because the role of the vanguard isn't to replace the people but help them stand up for themselves, isn't it?
So if you're sad that that time isn't "now" I can tell you I'm a bit sad too (probably more than you as we here need to withstand this crazy austerity) but being sad or angry or enraged doesn't solve anything. You get past that and keep on doing what you can do.

bricolage

14th February 2012, 15:39

That means grassroots work, not the kind that makes international headlines.
But do you not accept that some people can be involved in both?

FSL

14th February 2012, 15:42

Maybe to you. Good thing I don't really give a fuck what a dogmatic KKE supporter thinks. Why not respond to the good post hindsight made instead of giving your opinion of my levels of leninistyness?

I did that right after.
And yes you're free to not give a fuck what I think about leninism but you might want to give a fuck about what Lenin thinks. He pretty much wrote the book on this subject.

But do you not accept that some people can be involved in both?

I don't see why all the repressed anger then. I don't see why there are no unions calling for arson.

Tim Cornelis

14th February 2012, 15:47

Like in Germany.
You didn't answer the question though. It has never happened.
Yet it has somehow achieved a legendary status in your mind for reasons you can't explain.

I didn't answer the question? What was your question: "When did we ever conquer power in a burnt out parliament?"

The answer is never, but that is rather the point innit? We do not want to conquer power in a parliament, we want to abolish parliamentarianism!

"It has never happened."

It's a good thing never happened that we conquered parliamentary power in a burned parliament.

Yet it has somehow achieved a legendary status in your mind for reasons you can't explain.

What has achieved a legendary status? That I believe burning down the parliament will get us parliamentary power. You are hereby implying that I want parliamentary power, and simultaneously want to burn it down. While I only want the latter.

And I didn't feel addressed in the rest of the comment.

FSL

14th February 2012, 15:57

You are hereby implying that I want parliamentary power, and simultaneously want to burn it down. While I only want the latter.

It was pointed out to you that never has power as in workers' power meant fire, chaos and mayhem. These just make for pretty pictures you like. Still, you seem to prefer pretty pictures to workers' power.

Welshy

14th February 2012, 15:59

The rulling class wasn't bothered by the flaming buildings, the demo never really started.
That's why I said I have the same question for the Greek Anarchists (though we don't seem to have any here. I find both tactics being taken to be insufficient especially since both have been used in abundance for the past 4 years.

And of course it's bothered by strikes as they hurt profits. The behaviour of some industrialists in the steel or food industry where workers are very active shows they've stopped feeling calm a while ago.

PAME has a lot of workers organized currently and if what Cmoney has said in the past is right and there have been a couple work places that have been taken over by their workers. Why doesn't the KKE and PAME organize some of their own take overs? I mean you guys are well organized and have large numbers and the anger is there (if it wasn't then I doubt Athens would have looked like it did this weekend), so it doesn't seem outside of your abilities to do something like this.

I think you're looking for something spectacular but conscience doesn't change in a moment. Right now organizing people in workplaces to fight the attempts to reduce wages is of great importance. That means grassroots work, not the kind that makes international headlines.

I'm not looking for a bunch of armed workers to out of know where take over Greece and declare the Socialist Republic of Greece. What I'm looking for a step forward because it seems that both the KKE and the anarchists have been doing the same shit for the past 4 years and almost no progress has been made and the situation just keeps getting worse.

Also I would like to note that this isn't me being "fuck the KKE. they are just opportunistic pieces of shits with no interest in revolution". I'm genuinely interested in hearing answers to these questions since my only real source for info on Greece is articles posted here or what you guys in Greece post.

FSL

14th February 2012, 16:12

Progress has been made and I explained how and where before.

I don't think takeovers are the answer. How are they viable in the middle of a capitalist economy? How many of these made it in Argentina after the bankruptcy? I think this just is a disorientation. Even if it can work in a cafe where you meet directly with consumers and you need minimal input it can't work in factories when you need to produce for a faceless market and trade and compete with other big corporations that could just squeeze you out if they wanted. We need a total solution and that means public ownership of all means of production, not something like a collective capitalism

PhoenixAsh

14th February 2012, 16:21

This takes as granted that "action" is burning buildings and looting clothes and mobile phones from stores. I disagree. So personally I guarantee you that I will never even take part in these actions, let alone attempt to lead them.

There is never an end in organising but if I can understand what you mean, the revolution happens when we can make it. And that doesn't mean "we, the communists" but "we, the workers, the self-employed etc". Because the role of the vanguard isn't to replace the people but help them stand up for themselves, isn't it?
So if you're sad that that time isn't "now" I can tell you I'm a bit sad too (probably more than you as we here need to withstand this crazy austerity) but being sad or angry or enraged doesn't solve anything. You get past that and keep on doing what you can do.

THis doesn't really answer my question.

I am not asking for the KKE to initiate a revolution. What I am asking is why the KKE is actively lending its voice to the burgeoisie and condemning workers initiatives instead of actively participating in protests and organising something more than 24 hour strikes.

Because wether or not you agree with what happened and what is happening....they really are workers initiatives.

In condemning workers initiatives it actually undermines workers confidence. And that in turn undermines their ability to become conscious and realise their own potential.

This is basic human psychology. If people tell you long enough that what you are doing is wrong you will stop trying....or, equally bad for the KKE, stop listening and chosing those who are supportive of what you are doing. In fact you could say that this is one of the causes why the radical left always stays empty handed and ultra nationalism wins the day time and time gain. Because right now Chrysi Avyi is up 3.5% since last time and LAOS seems to be getting better results as well eventhough they are in government.

Instead of actually promoting class confidence KKE is taking their own position next to the government in condemning workers to stand up for themselves. Instead of providing a stable alternative, pressent and opposing the cops...it is taking a peaceful protest position (never mind the events of last time about which we totally disagree) rejecting the workers initiatives and not only being absent as a political force but by orating against workers denouncing diversity of action and glorifying their own. No matter that the vast majority of PAME workers are not at all Stalinist the KKE claims for itself the position of sole rescuer of the country at the expense of unity.

In doing so the KKE actually actively prevents workers to take initiative....and isnt being helpfull in aiding them at all and instead tries to force them into the part line.

This action and rethoric is actually quite opposite of your statement here.

The aims of KKE are not directed at radical left unity but instead at monopolisation of the anti government forces at the expense of the working class and at the expense of working class confidence.

FSL

14th February 2012, 16:31

Because wether or not you agree with what happened and what is happening....they really are workers initiatives.
At this point I'll ask you to show me which union called for arsons, you won't answer directly but insist on saying: "it's workers I tell you", I'll again disagree and this could go on forever.

Let's just stop here.

Tim Cornelis

14th February 2012, 16:45

It was pointed out to you that never has power as in workers' power meant fire, chaos and mayhem. These just make for pretty pictures you like. Still, you seem to prefer pretty pictures to workers' power.

Where did I say I want to burn shit and cause mayhem except for burning the parliament?

Welshy

14th February 2012, 16:48

Progress has been made and I explained how and where before.

Would you mind giving me a summary, as I don't want to search through out all the threads.

I don't think takeovers are the answer. How are they viable in the middle of a capitalist economy? How many of these made it in Argentina after the bankruptcy? I think this just is a disorientation. Even if it can work in a cafe where you meet directly with consumers and you need minimal input it can't work in factories when you need to produce for a faceless market and trade and compete with other big corporations that could just squeeze you out if they wanted. We need a total solution and that means public ownership of all means of production, not something like a collective capitalism

I guess I should have been more clear. When I said taking over the work place I meant either actually taking over the work place like I remember someone posting about the electrical workers supplying electricity to houses who electricity was turned off, or militant work place occupations that could include things like sabotage and physical confrontations with their bosses possibly to the point of what we saw in India recently (minus burning down the work place).

Also I think your description of communization as producing a collective capitalism is wrong. Workers taking over there work places and forcible seizing the means of production from the capitalists is a revolutionary act in fact it is one of the most important parts to overthrowing capitalism. Also I'm not sure if you just use the wrong word but public ownership of the means of production is not what we want as in english that implies the state/government owns/controls them not necessarily the workers (or when class is abolished, all of society). So we want neither collective capitalism, state capitalism or market socialism, but communism.

thriller

14th February 2012, 16:52

I don't think takeovers are the answer. How are they viable in the middle of a capitalist economy? How many of these made it in Argentina after the bankruptcy? I think this just is a disorientation. Even if it can work in a cafe where you meet directly with consumers and you need minimal input it can't work in factories when you need to produce for a faceless market and trade and compete with other big corporations that could just squeeze you out if they wanted. We need a total solution and that means public ownership of all means of production, not something like a collective capitalism

So takeovers are not the answer, and riots are not the answer, and demos are not the answer. So do you have an answer? Yes public ownership of all means of production is nice slogan that sounds good, but how do you get there? If taking over the work place is not the answer, and battling the forces that be is not the answer, and if staging protests is not the answer, then debating in bourgeois assemblies is the answer? How revolutionary!

PhoenixAsh

14th February 2012, 17:13

At this point I'll ask you to show me which union called for arsons, you won't answer directly but insist on saying: "it's workers I tell you", I'll again disagree and this could go on forever.

Let's just stop here.

Again you are dodging the question and the entire issue.

Your focus on unions is worrying. In fact....I should say your statement here is very anti-worker.

So....only people who are associated with unions are to be considered workers?

Most of the unions are nothing more than social democratic strongholds and institutionalised burgeoisie agents....as you well know. Nor do all unions have class conscious members including the ones the KKE has the biggest influence in.

Nor do they push for a revolutionary agenda.

But more to the point....doesn't PAME reject what it calls in its statement of 14th of february "the uncompromising struggle against employers´ and governmental trade unionism"

So...which unions exactly qualify for people being considered workers??

PAME in its platform uses nice rethorics: "The trade unions must take the responsibility of the organization everywhere, at the workplaces, at the neighbourhoods.

They must defend the workers’ lives."

and

"Whatever concerns the life of the people is a cause of conflict for the class oriented trade union forces. It is a base of coalition and struggle."

But there is no conflict from PAME/KKE. There is some peaceful march which is supposed to make an impression and persuade the acceptance of their multi point platform. So far this has not been succesful....at all. No matter how many thousands of people you get waving flags.

The reason this has not been succesful is because KKE/PAME reject a diversity of action and actually undermine parts of the working class. Their aim is not to create a plutocratic mass movement of revolutionary workers and unity but to, as I said, monopolise the workers and political movement.

Now this is all nice and all...power political aganda's serving the interest of the party and not the workers....but as I said...this is not furthering class consciousness. Rather a specific form and direction and aim diverted solely to the whims and goals of the party agenda.

FSL

14th February 2012, 17:14

So takeovers are not the answer, and riots are not the answer, and demos are not the answer. So do you have an answer? Yes public ownership of all means of production is nice slogan that sounds good, but how do you get there? If taking over the work place is not the answer, and battling the forces that be is not the answer, and if staging protests is not the answer, then debating in bourgeois assemblies is the answer? How revolutionary!

We will take over the workplaces. All of them. Not just one or a few and then go out and sell whatever we make to a market.
Riots are certainly not the answer. Organized mass action is. From protests to armed struggle depending on what you need.

So....only people who are associated with unions are to be considered workers?

No, but all workers should be in unions. That's how you get rid of sold out leaders. If you don't, they'll still be there arranging paycuts.

When PAME speaks of conflict it doesn't mean riots. It means fighting bosses. That you don't see that in the news doesn't mean it's not happening. And it's not less important just because "it doesn't look as good".

thriller

14th February 2012, 17:21

We will take over the workplaces. All of them. Not just one or a few and then go out and sell whatever we make to a market.
Riots are certainly not the answer. Organized mass action is. From protests to armed struggle depending on what you need.

Well you have to start with a few. It's not going to happen in one day, as you yourself have noted. So dissing on the few that have and are just trying to stay a float seems counter-active to me. And riots are not needed but armed struggle is? So it's not okay to light some buildings on fire where no people were inside, but it's cool to shoot people in the face? WTF?

PhoenixAsh

14th February 2012, 17:37

No, but all workers should be in unions. That's how you get rid of sold out leaders. If you don't, they'll still be there arranging paycuts.

When PAME speaks of conflict it doesn't mean riots. It means fighting bosses. That you don't see that in the news doesn't mean it's not happening. And it's not less important just because "it doesn't look as good".

...but they aren't. So therefore the KKE can wait for that to happen but it won't be happening. Not all workers are going to be in unions...ever. This does not mean however that they are not workers and they are not part of the struggle.

Nor does it mean that all unions are good and on the side of the best inetrest of workers. As PAME itself has noticed and argues on their site PASOK and ND unions are reactionary and do not contribute towards creating a system which is devoid of corruption or bosses. Yet they are unions.

When PAME/KKE speak about "the hooded ones" the "agent provocateurs" they are not only denouncing diversity of tactics but they are calling their struggle the only right way to struggle, and the only way which will lead to revolution. Everybody who does not aprove or who does not subscribe to KKE strategy and goals (the monopolisation of the workers movement BEFORE it will actually start defending workers rights and lives in the neighborhoods and on the streets....as they so eloquently claim they want to do) is denounced as untrustworthy government employees. With that it undermines workers initiatives, creates and atmosphere of fear amongst the workers and creates dissent and competition between workers.

Not only this. But in denouncing the burning of banks and coorporative chains they are actually protecting private property and building on the mythos of the current system.

Why should we not destroy banks? Why should we not destroy corporative chains? In fact....both these are supposed aims of PAME and KKE.

What I am talking about, and what you seem to be dodging, is not one tactic over the other my question is and has always been...why does KKE/PAME NOT support diversity of tactics?

The answer seems to be that they fear state repression. Which is bullshit since they themselves on their respective websites are calling, what is happening in the form of austerity measures, state repression and the criminal elimination of the working class and population of Greece

Yet in the face of this criminal elimination and mass slaughter the KKE and PAME chose to not participate in the events by taking a position of unity but one of dissent, on that in word and action only serves the interest of the ruling elite.

As has been shown time and time again...and what is now frightingly obvious in the polls....waving flags and shouting slogans is NOT going to move the working class. What is however going to move the working class is solidarity and union and diversity of action.

THAT is what you seem to be dodging.

And the only reason the KKE and PAME are doing this is, as I said, because of selfinterest and self serving strategic planning. That has got nothing to do with being a vanguard like you originally claimed.

So in short: Why do KKE propaganda and practice not match?

FSL

14th February 2012, 17:46

Well you have to start with a few. It's not going to happen in one day, as you yourself have noted. So dissing on the few that have and are just trying to stay a float seems counter-active to me. And riots are not needed but armed struggle is? So it's not okay to light some buildings on fire where no people were inside, but it's cool to shoot people in the face? WTF?
No, I don't have to start with a few. How is that even a logical conclusion? When was there a revolution in monthly installments?

Riots are not needed and not wanted because they're unorganized, aimless and counter-productive. Armed struggle is an option. Not because it's "cool" but, say in Colombia where you're at a war with the state, it's the only thing you can do.

Why should we not destroy banks? Why should we not destroy corporative chains? In fact....both these are supposed aims of PAME and KKE.
They're not.

why does KKE/PAME NOT support diversity of tactics?
It does support a diversity of tactics. It just doesn't support riots. It's not a tactic employed by the organized workers' movement by definition, not will it ever be. If PAME thinks that then it would be really weird to start supporting it.

PhoenixAsh

14th February 2012, 18:04

No, I don't have to start with a few. How is that even a logical conclusion? When was there a revolution in monthly installments?

Riots are not needed and not wanted because they're unorganized, aimless and counter-productive. Armed struggle is an option. Not because it's "cool" but, say in Colombia where you're at a war with the state, it's the only thing you can do.

How exactly are they counter productive?

They're not.

I thought they were anti-capitalist. At least that is what they claim. Inclusion of being anti-capitalist is to destroy banks and corporations.

But I will take your word for it... and add: ...there you go then. If they are not then how can you claim they are radical leftwing?

But lets use PAME:

"United front of struggle to militantly demand the right and the ability to control the wealth that we produce for our benefit and the benefit of all the people, for another way of development and power which will seek the welfare of the people, development in favour of the people and not of the monopolies."

"Until when will we have our heads bowed down under the bankers, industrialists, ship-owners, the memoranda and the troika that serve them and all the predators that demand cheap labor, without rights until we will become very old, robbing and grabbing from us the product of our labor?"

"We are convinced, because we believe in the power of workers, of the people to impose their own right. We struggle with our alliance so that the people will get the confidence that they can become the dominant power and assert their own authority. To struggle for a class change in authority and not for a change of the parties that reproduce the brutal, oppressive, exploitative system. To struggle for the workers’ popular authority."

With our front against monopolies, the heart of the capitalist system, the parties that serve them and E.U., we call to struggle for the overthrow of the antipopular policies, to struggle for survival, to struggle for radical changes in the level of the economy and authority.

Now...that is far removed from what KKE/PAME is actually doing and kind of paints an entirely different perspective on the issue of banks and corporations.

So what you say is perhaps contradicting the actual policies of KKE/PAME or we need to conclude that it is neithers objective to really overthrow capitalism.

It does support a diversity of tactics. It just doesn't support riots. It's not a tactic employed by the organized workers' movement by definition, not will it ever be. If PAME thinks that then it would be really weird to start supporting it.

Actually it doesn't because it denounces everybody who doesn't participate in PAME/KKE events and who takes up more radical and direct action as state provocateurs and hooded ones in league with fascists and the government.

THAT is not supportive of diversity of tactics. It doesn't seek confrontation with the police...fine....but it hands over everybody outside of KKE/PAME to the police. It doesn't protect the neighborhoods. It doesn't fight back as a political entity when the police attack workers or streets or neighborhoods.

chegitz guevara

14th February 2012, 18:17

If the KKE wanted revolution, there would be revolution. They should be pushing for revolution, building for revolution, preparing committees of public safety, working with anarchists to build organization capable of toppling the state.

The anarchists cannot provide this organization, which is absolutely vital to toppling the state.

The workers need to be broken from the KKE by a revolutionary socialist party, and the anarchists need to realize they can't riot their way to revolution ... though they are doing a bang up job of delegitimizing the state.

GoddessCleoLover

14th February 2012, 18:29

Occupations would be an even better way of delegitimizing the state. Are there any workers' occupations in addition to the occupation of the university law school in Athens?

thÃ¤lmann

14th February 2012, 18:33

i think it doesnt make sence to discuss such questions with a kke member. what we can see from fsl comments is that he dont have an idea of marxism, let alone leninism.

It does support a diversity of tactics. It just doesn't support riots. It's not a tactic employed by the organized workers' movement by definition, not will it ever be.

and this post shows that there is not only no knowledge about history, but also no respect for the international communist movement.

when it comes to greece, i think that armed struggle led by a communist party should have started already, but not as the only maybe not even as the main form of struggle.

two nice lenin quotes regarding this topic.

"In this respect Marxism learns, if we may so express it, from mass practice, and makes no claim whatever to teach the masses forms of struggle invented by “systematisers” in the seclusion of their studies. "

"in the first place, Marxism differs from all primitive forms of socialism by not binding the movement to any one particular form of struggle." Lenin, guerilla warfare.

thriller

14th February 2012, 18:35

The Douche

14th February 2012, 18:50

Occupations would be an even better way of delegitimizing the state. Are there any workers' occupations in addition to the occupation of the university law school in Athens?

There is an occupied hospital right now, and there have been some organized refusals by electric workers to shut off power for non-payment.

piet11111

14th February 2012, 19:17

bcbm

14th February 2012, 19:24

When was there a revolution in monthly installments?

russia 1905 february 1917 october 1917

FSL

14th February 2012, 19:38

Has the KKE ever made a public statement on occupations of workplaces like that hospital or the electric workers reconnecting homes that where shut off ?

I feel its a safe bet they never have made one that is clearly supportive of such actions.

Most of the reconnections have happened because of PAME, including one involving a whole village that had refused to pay the tax coming with the electricity bill.

Hindsight, no we don't want to "destroy" property. Maybe you want because you just enjoy destruction. That's your issue, work it over with a psychologist. I want to make that property social.

Thälmann, nowhere in what you posted is there a nod on riots.

Something different, however, must be said of the other enemy of Bolshevism within the working-class movement. It is far from sufficiently known as yet abroad that Bolshevism grew up, took shape, and became steeled in long years of struggle against petty-bourgeois revolutionism, which smacks of, or borrows something from, anarchism, and which falls short, in anything essential, of the conditions and requirements of a consistently proletarian class struggle. For Marxists, it is well established theoretically -- and the experience of all European revolutions and revolutionary movements has fully confirmed it -- that the small owner, the small master (a social type that is represented in many European countries on a very wide, a mass scale), who under capitalism always suffers oppression and, very often, an incredibly acute and rapid deterioration in his conditions, and ruin, easily goes to revolutionary extremes, but is incapable of perseverance, organization, discipline and steadfastness. The petty bourgeois "driven to frenzy" by the horrors of capitalism is a social phenomenon which, like anarchism, is characteristic of all capitalist countries. The instability of such revolutionism, its barrenness, its liability to become swiftly transformed into submission, apathy, fantasy, and even a "frenzied" infatuation with one or another bourgeois "fad" -- all this is a matter of common knowledge. But a theoretical, abstract recognition of these truths does not at all free revolutionary parties from old mistakes, which always crop up at unexpected moments, in a somewhat new form, in hitherto unknown vestments or surroundings, in a peculiar -- more or less peculiar -- situation.
At its inception in 1903, Bolshevism took over the tradition of ruthless struggle against petty-bourgeois, semianarchist (or dilettante-anarchist) revolutionism, the tradition which has always existed in revolutionary Social-Democracy, and be came particularly strong in 1900-03, when the foundations for a mass party of the revolutionary proletariat were being laid in Russia. Bolshevism took over and continued the struggle against the party which more than any other expressed the tendencies of petty-bourgeois revolutionism, namely, the "Socialist-Revolutionary" Party, and waged this struggle on three main points. First, this party, rejecting Marxism, stubbornly refused (or, it would be more correct to say: was unable) to understand the need for a strictly objective appraisal of the class forces and their interrelations before undertaking any political action. Secondly, this party considered itself to be particularly "revolutionary," or "Left," because of its recognition of individual terror, assassination -- a thing which we Marxists emphatically rejected. Of course, we rejected individual terror only on grounds of expediency, whereas people who were capable of condemning "on principle" the terror of the Great French Revolution, or in general, the terror employed by a victorious revolutionary party which is besieged by the bourgeoisie of the whole world, were ridiculed and laughed to scorn already by Plekhanov, in 1900-03, when he was a Marxist and a revolutionary http://www.marx2mao.com/Lenin/LWC20.html#c3

No one is forcing you to call yourself a Leninist. If you think it's too dogmatic or that it focuses too much on discipline you can call yourself an anarchist. It's better than twisting communism to have it fit your misconceptions.

Chegitz, whether the state gets delegitimized by actions like these is a matter of opinion isn't it? I don't mean to disturb you but the prevalent opinion here is exactly that cops and "anarchists" work together.
Also, have fun waiting to see workers breaking from the party.

And with that I think all that could be said on these events, has mostly been said.

FSL

14th February 2012, 19:41

russia 1905 february 1917 october 1917

The last one is the workers' one. If you'd like it, we could bring back the King and make a Greek Revolution Part 1 just to kick him out again.
I think it's pointless though.

The Douche

14th February 2012, 19:43

but the prevalent opinion here is exactly that cops and "anarchists" work together.

By "here", you mean, in the ranks of the KKE...

FSL

14th February 2012, 19:45

By "here", you mean, in the ranks of the KKE...

Of course not, I mean in the country.

PhoenixAsh

14th February 2012, 19:52

How quickly we forget the bread riots.....:rolleyes:

The Douche

14th February 2012, 19:56

Of course not, I mean in the country.

You don't see how it is irrationally secterian to say that all anarchists are either cops, fascists, or people encouraged/tricked/provoked by them?

bie

14th February 2012, 20:07

It is a good spot to express the support to comrades organized in KKE and PAME. Keep up the great work, you are inspiration for many of us!

Leftsolidarity

14th February 2012, 20:11

What I have gathered from FSL's posts are:

1) Unity is dumb. Anyone who doesn't belong to the KKE is doing the bidding of the state. (but internationalism is key)
2) Attack anyone making an attempt. If we do that maybe everyone will jump for a revolution at the same exact time.
3) You are only a member of the working class if you belong to a union.
4) If you are a member of the workering class and you "riot", you some how stop being a member of the working class.
5) To be a Leninist you must believe these things; if you don't, you're not a Leninist.

FSL

14th February 2012, 20:12

You don't see how it is irrationally secterian to say that all anarchists are either cops, fascists, or people encouraged/tricked/provoked by them?
The latter category is the people you'd call anarchists but I don't think that they start their day thinking "today I'm burning stuff". I think they just jump on the bandwagon.
Of course I can't be all that sure, that's true. Add a fourth category, people who are downright brainless.

What I have gathered from FSL's posts are:

1) Unity is dumb. Anyone who doesn't belong to the KKE is doing the bidding of the state. (but internationalism is key)
2) Attack anyone making an attempt. If we do that maybe everyone will jump for a revolution at the same exact time.
3) You are only a member of the working class if you belong to a union.
4) If you are a member of the workering class and you "riot", you some how stop being a member of the working class.
5) To be a Leninist you must believe these things; if you don't, you're not a Leninist.
Your gathering skills are lacking.

The Douche

14th February 2012, 20:17

The latter category is the people you'd call anarchists but I don't think that they start their day thinking "today I'm burning stuff". I think they just jump on the bandwagon.
Of course I can't be all that sure, that's true. Add a fourth category, people who are downright brainless.

Your gathering skills are lacking.

Well if I lived in Greece, I'd probably have woken up this weekend and thought "today I'm burning stuff", so by your analysis I'm either, dumb, riding a bandwagon, a cop, or a fascist... so... yeah...

Ele'ill

14th February 2012, 20:19

Gonna interject here and say that we want respectful discussion everyone thanks

Leftsolidarity

14th February 2012, 20:32

Your gathering skills are lacking.

What do you propose be done?

Serious question. I don't want rhetoric. I want a suggestion for a legitimate route to go other than "rioting" by "the hooded ones".

Ele'ill

14th February 2012, 20:38

The latter category is the people you'd call anarchists but I don't think that they start their day thinking "today I'm burning stuff". I think they just jump on the bandwagon.
Of course I can't be all that sure, that's true. Add a fourth category, people who are downright brainless.

I'd take it- getting tricked by cops into causing absolute mayhem while looking like a fire hurling Mesmer who is actually causing destabilization as the police actually lose control. Yup that's what I was trying to do anyways thanks gang. Better than getting tricked by bureaucratic lethargy.

Ravachol

14th February 2012, 21:30

Oh boy, can't wait for FSL's comments the moment the KKE gains even a slight majority in the country and at best tries to turn it into some laughable state-capitalist pipedream (haha, as if) or most likely offers some lipservices to 'responsible revolution' like the social-steam vent they are, eventually walking in line like all other factions of the bourgeoisie while they sit their asses down in the proverbial cabin of the sinking ship. Perhaps there's even another Varkiza Treaty or 2 in there this time, jolly good fun.

I sure hope the KKE posters on here aren't representative for everyone aligned to them or PAME. Must be a depressing experience really, claiming you 'won the struggle for the correct line, against euro-communist opportunism!' only to do exactly what the PCF and PCI would have done. :rolleyes:

thÃ¤lmann

14th February 2012, 21:37

ok when rioting and looting makes you an anarchist, then the german kpd of the 20s was anarchist because they looted foodstores to feed the starving peoples, or all of the turkish communists for which street fighting(riot) is necessary, or the comrades in phillipine shantytowns fighting their deportation and so on. cant you get it, that all kind of tactics can be right in some situations? didnt you understand what you post from lenin?

its right that the actions of the militants in greece is too undisciplined and unorganised. but dont blame them, take the blame for the greek communists who are not able to lead them.

but in one thing youre totally right: there should be no molotovs and burning and stones, the time is over, you need much heavier weapons to get the bourgois state down.

Ravachol

14th February 2012, 21:49

ok when rioting and looting makes you an anarchist, then the german kpd of the 20s was anarchist because they looted foodstores to feed the starving peoples

Dude we must be like, telepathic or some shit couse I posted an image of exactly that as a response like 10 seconds ago. :cool:

bie

14th February 2012, 22:21

I can't wait until Ravachol (nothing personal) etc. find himself in the opposition to a worker's power and a country that is building socialism and transforms it into communism. I can easily imagine when all the world moves towards socialist relations of production, he and alikes will join the narrowing camp of "critics" that slander and blacken socialism; I can imagine them campaigning against workers power; for the "freedom of speech" that would be a freedom for bourgeois organizations etc.; similar to the movements that acted against socialism in Europe. The good thing is that this group will be narrower and narrower and its class content will be clearly visible. And it will not be workers who will object the new relationships. Anyway - once again - KKE is one of the few organizations capable to defeat the power of monopolies in its country; their weapon - marxist-leninist theory; organized, militant and class counscious working class is far more powerful than any other known. But if someone wants to fight with capitalist structures with a mob of vandals - good luck to him, but his chances are none.

Sasha

14th February 2012, 22:39

The Douche

14th February 2012, 22:40

We hold no illusion what we would have to do when we are ever faced with a government of the ilk of the KKE and what punishment they will have in store for us... we have seen it in kronstad, seen it in Barcelona, seen it in Hungary and Prague...
Cute barely concealed thread there...
But you are grossly mistaken who would be on the side of socialism and who on the one of capitalism..

Hasn't the KKE or one of its predecessors killed anarchists in the past?

bie

14th February 2012, 22:48

Ravachol

14th February 2012, 22:51

I can easily imagine when all the world moves towards socialist relations of production, he and alikes will join the narrowing camp of "critics" that slander and blacken socialism; I can imagine them campaigning against workers power; for the "freedom of speech" that would be a freedom for bourgeois organizations etc.; similar to the movements that acted against socialism in Europe. The good thing is that this group will be narrower and narrower and its class content will be clearly visible. And it will not be workers who will object the new relationships.

No, it will not be the workers who will have to have their enthusiasm for the 'socialist relations' moderated through tanks. It will be bourgeois demands like the destruction of markets, wage slavery (state-employed or not) private property, the state and profit. These demands, the highest expression of the exploiting class, will be mercilessly opposed by the clear proletarian program of 'labour for everyone, all power to the central committee and a fair day's wage for a fair day's work!'.

Anyway - once again - KKE is one of the few organizations capable to defeat the power of monopolies in its country; their weapon - marxist-leninist theory; organized, militant and class counscious working class is far more powerful than any other known. But if someone wants to fight with capitalist structures with a mob of vandals - good luck to him, but his chances are none.

I've changed my mind, I'm going to fight them by the monolithic might of sitting in parliament or walking around it. Maybe I'll even help write an article about the glorious people's march and some police provocateurs assisted by dark foreign forces, or how we have to break the power of the 'monopolies' and 'foreign capital'. Tremble, bourgeois worms of the world!

I can't wait until Ravachol (nothing personal) etc. find himself in the opposition to a worker's power and a country that is building socialism and transforms it into communism.

I can't wait either, maybe it'll take 20 years though (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_in_20_years), you never know with these transitions.

No worries :) Unless you side yourself with the darkest sections of the reaction there is no worries from the revolutionary governments; but lets be frank - what sort of role will yourself see for you after the socialist revolution? A defenders of the bourgeois freedoms?

What socialist revolution? But for the argument's sake: I'm kinda attached to bourgeois freedoms like workers' councils though, care not to purge me?

The Douche

14th February 2012, 22:54

No worries :) Unless you side yourself with the darkest sections of the reaction there is no worries from the revolutionary governments; but lets be frank - what sort of role will yourself see for you after the socialist revolution? A defenders of the bourgeois freedoms?

Yeah, dog, send in the tanks, just like they did in Hungary and Czechoslovakia and Tiennamen... crush those counter-revolutionary, bourgeois traitors.

Omsk

14th February 2012, 22:56

what sort of role will yourself see for you after the socialist revolution?

This was the question,i believe.No need for populism.

Ravachol

14th February 2012, 22:58

This was the question,i believe.No need for populism.

Dude nobody addressed believes:

a) Stalinist Yada-yada ammounts to a 'socialist revolution'.
b) It will ever take place.

FSL

14th February 2012, 22:58

We hold no illusion what we would have to do when we are ever faced with a government of the ilk of the KKE and what punishment they will have in store for us... we have seen it in kronstad and the Ukraine, we seen it in Barcelona, seen it in Hungary and Prague...

You're right here but, please, tell Ravachol about all these, he thinks we'll just have a pleasant social democracy with anarchists running around burning stuff.

PhoenixAsh

14th February 2012, 23:00

The role of anarchists after the revolution is to saveguard the gains of the revolution. To secure that the aims and goals will not be watered down, put on hold or postponed indefinately untill party and vanguard elites subjectively feel the time is right. To see the vanguards are deconstructed and power is handed over to the working class instead of accumulated into the hands of party elites. That there will be no reign of terror showered over the working class under the guise of counter counter reaction while secretly consolidating power.

Things like that. In short: prevent the same fiasco's like happened last time.

Omsk

14th February 2012, 23:01

I did not present these "questions" - or tried to promote my own view.

a) Stalinist Yada-yada ammounts to a 'socialist revolution'.
b) It will ever take place.

I just want the answer on the question a user asked.(As cmoney acted a bit populistic)

Things like that. In short: prevent the same fiasco's like happened last time.

And what if the revolution is led by a vanguard party (ML)?Conflict is imminent?

What if the vaguard party has a huge support among the workers,what if it is quite popular?

PhoenixAsh

14th February 2012, 23:06

If they do the same thing like last time then it will probably be the case.

Since we will all be marched of to gulags, if we aren't shot in the streets, for oppossing the accumulation of power in the hands of yet another elite....that much has become obvious

The Douche

14th February 2012, 23:07

You're right here but, please, tell Ravachol about all these, he thinks we'll just have a pleasant social democracy with anarchists running around burning stuff.

Uh, you want a social democracy?!

Ravachol

14th February 2012, 23:08

You're right here but, please, tell Ravachol about all these, he thinks we'll just have a pleasant social democracy with anarchists running around burning stuff.

I do? Seeing as you seem to imply "We'll purge you after we take power" that isn't the wise thing to say as a Machiavellian. People might anticipate ya know...

What if the vaguard party has a huge support among the workers,what if it is quite popular?

I guess the course would be the same as any other bourgeois change of regime. Nothing new there.

FSL

14th February 2012, 23:10

Uh, you want a social democracy?!
I want a workers' state, resembling what you seem to consider a fiasco and against which you are ready to fight.

I understand that, I don't understand why for example I was told off before, after telling that "left unity" is essentially a mythical concept.
You don't like what we like, we don't like what you like. And that's about that.

The Douche

14th February 2012, 23:12

I want a workers' state, resembling what you seem to consider a fiasco and are ready to fight against.

I understand that, I don't understand why for example I was told off before, after telling that "left unity" is essentially a mythical concept.
You don't like what we like, we don't like what you like. And that's about that.

I never said anything about left unity, there can be no meaningful unity between us. Especially, once the crisis becomes more heated, like it is in your country.

I don't want unity with marxist-leninists, I want social revolution.

Omsk

14th February 2012, 23:12

I guess the course would be the same as any other bourgeois change of regime. Nothing new there.

So you will not support a struggle against the capitalists/right-wing state,because you know that the "vaguard party" is your enemy?(Asuming that the vanguard party has a wide support from various backgrounds)

I don't want unity with marxist-leninists, I want social revolution.

Ah,now that that has been cleared,we can move on.If there is a subject we can move on forward to,actually.

The Douche

14th February 2012, 23:15

So you will not support a struggle against the capitalists/right-wing state,because you know that the "vaguard party" is your enemy?(Asuming that the vanguard party has a wide support from various backgrounds)

Ah,now that that has been cleared,we can move on.If there is a subject we can move on forward to,actually.

Every time there is a thread about large scale action in Greece the same issue comes up, and it will continue to happen that way, what do you expect? Anarchists oppose the state, even one that you're in charge of...

Omsk

14th February 2012, 23:18

Anarchists oppose the state, even one that you're in charge of...

But you undoubtedly know that the main point of a revolution led by a vanguard is not a mere state?And that the situation would grow,and not stop at the start?

The Douche

14th February 2012, 23:25

But you undoubtedly know that the main point of a revolution led by a vanguard is not a mere state?And that the situation would grow,and not stop at the start?

If you say so...

Ele'ill

14th February 2012, 23:25

But you undoubtedly know that the main point of a revolution led by a vanguard is not a mere state?And that the situation would grow,and not stop at the start?

uh huh

bie

14th February 2012, 23:25

It will be bourgeois demands like the destruction of markets, wage slavery (state-employed or not) private property, the state and profit. These demands, the highest expression of the exploiting class, will be mercilessly opposed by the clear proletarian program of 'labour for everyone, all power to the central committee and a fair day's wage for a fair day's work!'.It will be bourgeois demands like the destruction of markets, wage slavery (state-employed or not) private property, the state and profit. These demands, the highest expression of the exploiting class, will be mercilessly opposed by the clear proletarian program of 'labour for everyone, all power to the central committee and a fair day's wage for a fair day's work!'.
Everything in its own time. It will be quite unwise to disband the army and the state at once. :)

I've changed my mind, I'm going to fight them by the monolithic might of sitting in parliament or walking around it. Maybe I'll even help write an article about the glorious people's march and some police provocateurs assisted by dark foreign forces, or how we have to break the power of the 'monopolies' and 'foreign capital'.
You really expect sth spectacular :) But the what that needs to be done is a preparatory work - work at the basics. And this is why KKE is doing a great job - they educate, organize, introduce class counsciousness. At the same time they build a serious force, a force capable to challenge the system. This is a whole point.

What socialist revolution? But for the argument's sake: I'm kinda attached to bourgeois freedoms like workers' councils though, care not to purge me?
Lets presume that the revolution will be carried out by organizations like KKE. Will you support the revolution then? What will be your stance?

Sasha

14th February 2012, 23:30

So you will not support a struggle against the capitalists/right-wing state,because you know that the "vaguard party" is your enemy?(Asuming that the vanguard party has a wide support from various backgrounds)

Ah,now that that has been cleared,we can move on.If there is a subject we can move on forward to,actually.

You know, devsol/dhkc killed plenty of anarchists in turkey and I still fraternise and occasionly organised actions with dhkc/p sympathizers, very probably unknowingly even with cadre members and I can do that i know they are real revolutionaries even while i fundamentally disagree with them on how the future society should look, at the same time I also still vote for the leftwing of capital here, while they don't hide that and I knowingly, for personal reasons vote for them.
But its that being a totally obvious bourgeois stooge for capitalism while pretending to be not of the KKE that gets to me.

Omsk

14th February 2012, 23:36

uh huh

Enlighten me.

But its that being a totally obvious bourgeois stooge for capitalism while pretending to be not of the KKE that gets to me.

Dont go with those lines with me,i didnt even show my view on the KKE,and i am not a KKE "supporter" i still informing myself about them.

The Douche

14th February 2012, 23:37

Here, this is an account of the murder and imprisonment of Greek communists and anarchists by Greek Stalinists only 65 years ago. So how dare you members of the KKE, the inheritors of this legacy, act that we are unreasonable, when you spin up your presses to denounce the communist left/anarchists?

http://www.marxists.org/subject/greek-civil-war/revolutionary-history/stinas/memoirs.htm

Omsk

14th February 2012, 23:40

So how dare you members of the KKE

I dont know who are you adressing,there seems to be quite a few KKE official party members on this forum,and none of them are posting in this thread.

Well,except for FSL.

The Douche

14th February 2012, 23:43

I dont know who are you adressing,there seems to be quite a few KKE official party members on this forum,and none of them are posting in this thread.

Well,except for FSL.

Yeah, FSL and KomunistusGR or whatever. But my statement applies the supporters as well.

Tommy4ever

15th February 2012, 00:05

The Douche

15th February 2012, 00:07

65 years ago? Seriously?

How many KKE members around then are still even alive today?

Dude, the KKE are the ideological heirs of this movement.

Ravachol

15th February 2012, 00:19

So you will not support a struggle against the capitalists/right-wing state,because you know that the "vaguard party" is your enemy?(Asuming that the vanguard party has a wide support from various backgrounds)

No, I will not support Stalinist bs because I support the struggle against Capitalism, including it's left-wing. Even if it has wide 'support', that doesn't matter. Social-democracy had wide support in North-West Europe, Fascism had wide support at the end of the interbellum, Obama had wide support. Quantitative numbers are not a substitute for qualitative 'closeness' to Communism.

Everything in its own time. It will be quite unwise to disband the army and the state at once. :)

You really expect sth spectacular :) But the what that needs to be done is a preparatory work - work at the basics. And this is why KKE is doing a great job - they educate, organize, introduce class counsciousness. At the same time they build a serious force, a force capable to challenge the system. This is a whole point.

Lets presume that the revolution will be carried out by organizations like KKE. Will you support the revolution then? What will be your stance?

I will have no 'stance on the revolution' (not that my stance matters anyway, I'm one guy in the Netherlands ffs) because I don't believe anything that will in all likelihood come out of the KKE has anything to do with Communism. It'll be state-capitalism, at best, but most likely participation in some kind of popular front managing Capital, handling some reforms and oiling the gears.

If the KKE, however, decides to abandon the concept of a 'vanguard party', abandons the concept of the conquest of state power, replaces it with the concept of the power of the free association of proletarian organs (whether councils, communes or otherwise), opposes markets, capital, profit-production and wage-labour, then I will gladly lend my support to it. But it would no longer be the KKE.

I don't want anything to do with a repeat of 'real existing socialism' because it did not, cannot and never will lead to communism. It's a different management mode of Capitalism and I oppose Capitalism in all it's forms, I'm sorry.

PhoenixAsh

15th February 2012, 03:30

65 years ago? Seriously?

How many KKE members around then are still even alive today?

In 1973...the Polytechnic uprising

and in 1979 they did it again when the youth group of the party were taking orders directly from the cops in order to break up a demonstration

And in 1998 when they handed over 200 anarchists directly to the cops and even sought them out to hand them over...actually chasing them to capture them. I know...I was there.

So do NOT attempt to say that 65 years is a long time. Because members from back then may not be alive.

The very same ideology, the very same attitude and the very same tactics are prevalent in the KKE as much today as they were then.

And with such a treacherous legacy in the parties history the party has NO place in dismissing our position and denouncing workers for taking any kind of action.

KurtFF8

15th February 2012, 04:50

Leftsolidarity

15th February 2012, 04:59

I never said anything about left unity, there can be no meaningful unity between us. Especially, once the crisis becomes more heated, like it is in your country.

I don't want unity with marxist-leninists, I want social revolution.

Hey there, I like unity.

Marxist-Leninists and anarchists CAN have unity if they aren't dogmatic state capitalists like FSL.

Welshy

15th February 2012, 05:03

This thread has devolved into sectarian fighting. It's unfortunate that a large forum devoted to fighting capitalism can't have a thread about Greece without it ending in heated insults between supporters and opponents of the KKE.

I don't think it has been entirely sectarian fighting and I think the heated insults is result of this being a time period with great potential and the left is excited and frustrated about what is going on at the moment. But I would very much like to hear a response from the KKE members here on what they think the next step is because all I have heard so far has been really vague and more of what they think the step is not rather what it is.

DaringMehring

15th February 2012, 05:05

Good luck to the Greek masses!

The world's eyes are on you, we will come to help you if you rise up!

A Marxist Historian

15th February 2012, 10:24

The question remains, why is Greece still capitalist? What is preventing workers from permanently occupying bank headquarters, government ministries, and workplaces? Why can't there begin permanent occupations and the long delayed and desperately needed transistion to a post-capitalist society?

Greece has had, I believe, a dozen general strikes within the past 2 years. The country is now in flames. So why does capitalism still prevail?

Are the KKE on one hand and the Greek anarchists on the other hand doing their jobs?

Aw c'mon Lenina, you've been around long enough to know the answer.

Crisis of revolutionary leadership, same old story.

As for whether the KKE on the one hand and the Greek anarchists on the other are doing their jobs, well let's hope not, since the KKE's job is to prevent revolution, and the job of the anarchists is to screw things up totally.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

15th February 2012, 10:33

The Greeks are unfortunately on the horns of a dilemma since their economy is now based upon the euro repudiation might be a cure that is worth than the disease. Popular opinion in Greece seems to favor staying in the euro zone but at the same time opposing the austerity measures.

Which is completely, 100% impossible. No way jose. Easier to teach a pig to fly.

Moreover, if Greece leaves the Euro but stays capitalist, it would not be a relatively survivable scene like Argentina, as Greece is much smaller, has fewer natural resources, and is much less immune to disastrous consequences from being cut off from the rest of the capitalist world.

Greek banks would all go bankrupt, and that would lead to most of Greek industry doing the same.

So it really is socialism or barbarism in Greece, there are no intermediate alternatives. And a socialist Greece 100% isolated in a capitalist world would be Albania all over again.

The Trotskyist program of world revolution, or fascism. Those are the only two real alternatives Greece has. It may take a while for Greeks to figure that out though.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

15th February 2012, 10:42

Among the things they were saying in such a calm manner was that they intend to vote in favour because Greece is worth saving, not being burnt.

Generally, when the dilemma put forward by the government, the media, economists etc was "it's this or chaos" some people went out of their way to bring chaos.
It is my opinion that them as well as those who cheered for them are beyond help.

Why are you asking that on what is supposed to be a revolutionary left forum?
Was there a workers' revolution in any of those countries?

To put your queries aside though we do have a fair share of people who want to copy what Argentina did (default, have a huge recession, let the salaries collapse, and all these almost immediately so that "growth" will start again sooner and our income will start "rising" again after reaching the bottom of the abyss).

Everyone is doing their jobs, at least what they think their job is, but it turns out convincing people to fight for a socialist revolution is a quite difficult task.

That's why Greece is still capitalist. Because the majority of the workers aren't in favour of or positively indifferent to communism yet.

So then, FSL, sounds like if you'd been sitting in parliament, you'd have voted for all this crap right along with the rest of them? To save Greece and all that?

That's to the right even of the KKE. Do you support them, or are they too left wing for you?

Is it possible to have a revolution tomorrow? Well, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, I don't know I'm not there.

But I do know the old saying, which Greeks have probably heard of before, that Rome wasn't built in a day.

If you want to build a revolutionary, communist movement, then you have to ... be a revolutionary communist, and not worry about what happens if the Greek capitalists do something stupid and people suffer. Because the fact is that yes they will do stupid things, and yes people will suffer, because that is their nature.

Instead of collaborating with them to try to get them to come to their senses, praising how "serene" they are and all that, the point is to overthrow them, and at bare minumum you have to say that the answer to this crisis is to overthrow them and establish socialism, not moan about how Greek workers are allegedly stupider than you are, so you have to be stupid with them.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

15th February 2012, 11:05

Well you have to start with a few. It's not going to happen in one day, as you yourself have noted. So dissing on the few that have and are just trying to stay a float seems counter-active to me. And riots are not needed but armed struggle is? So it's not okay to light some buildings on fire where no people were inside, but it's cool to shoot people in the face? WTF?

Yes, that sums it up well actually.

Useless rioting is merely destructive and accomplishes nothing. Though it is inevitable in a situation like this, so we shouldn't really even be bothering to argue about it, waste of perfectly good electrons.

Shooting the class enemy in the face, when the time comes, that's what revolution is all about.

But with the KKE, the rhetoric about armed struggle by and by, in the distant future, when the revolutionary crisis is right now, is just a smokescreen.

Now is the time for workers councils, for soldiers councils, for workers to form defense guards. And not for some latterday Maoist or Guevarist notion of guerilla warfare by self-appointed liberators, as with the KKE led peasant guerilla movement vs. the Nazis.

I hear a gun shop was looted. Now that is a useful form of looting, provide that the guns were acquired by a well organized workers militia and not by random passers by.

-M.H.-

bie

15th February 2012, 11:24

I will have no 'stance on the revolution' (not that my stance matters anyway, I'm one guy in the Netherlands ffs) because I don't believe anything that will in all likelihood come out of the KKE has anything to do with Communism. It'll be state-capitalism, at best, but most likely participation in some kind of popular front managing Capital, handling some reforms and oiling the gears.

If the KKE, however, decides to abandon the concept of a 'vanguard party', abandons the concept of the conquest of state power, replaces it with the concept of the power of the free association of proletarian organs (whether councils, communes or otherwise), opposes markets, capital, profit-production and wage-labour, then I will gladly lend my support to it. But it would no longer be the KKE.

I don't want anything to do with a repeat of 'real existing socialism' because it did not, cannot and never will lead to communism. It's a different management mode of Capitalism and I oppose Capitalism in all it's forms, I'm sorry.
You are mistaken in a few points: (1) it is not valid to consider KKE a social-democratic party ("different management mode"). KKE calls for the socialisation of means of production and centrally planned economy. Whatever you call that, there is a substantial difference between those postulates and the "different management mode". Social-democrats (e.g. European Left Party) on the other hand aim to retain the mixed property of the means of production. See the difference? (2) KKE in fact opposes markets, wage labour, capital, profit production. They call against dictarorship of the markets, they opt for exiting imperialist unions like EU, NATO etc. Socialist economy, communists call for is the economy in which markets, wage labour, capital and profit production ceased to exist and it is substituted by planned allocation of resources. (3) What you call a "free assiociation of proletarian organs" will never substitute the markets, wage labour, competition and profits if it was not directed by laws originating from the central planning (i.e. planned allocation of means of production). Instead of monopoly capitalism you will have market capitalism of the associations of productive units, competing with each other and producing for market. Therefore the vision you are defending here is indeed nothing but a different form of capitalism.

bie

15th February 2012, 11:28

The question remains, why is Greece still capitalist?
The answer is quite simple - revolutionary forces are not yet strong enough to call for the revolution, to win it, to defend it and to direct it in the right way. There is a need for the preparatory work to be done before any radical change can occur.

KurtFF8

15th February 2012, 12:33

I don't think it has been entirely sectarian fighting and I think the heated insults is result of this being a time period with great potential and the left is excited and frustrated about what is going on at the moment. But I would very much like to hear a response from the KKE members here on what they think the next step is because all I have heard so far has been really vague and more of what they think the step is not rather what it is.

I didn't mean "entirely" but rather that it has "devolved" into a thread full of that.

But I agree about your assessment of why that's the case.

Welshy

15th February 2012, 13:35

Ok I going to ask this again and I hope one of our greek members will answer it.

Given that neither the mass demos/general strikes nor the riots have been effective in preventing the austerity measures from being passed, what do you (I'm not looking for what your organization has to say, I want a personal opinion) think the next step is and why?

thriller

15th February 2012, 15:42

Shooting the class enemy in the face, when the time comes, that's what revolution is all about.

Hmm, I thought revolution was all about the workers taking control over the means of production. If revolution is just about killing others then you can't condemn anarchists throwing fire-bombs at the police. After all, they are a class enemy, are they not?

piet11111

15th February 2012, 18:24

Most of the reconnections have happened because of PAME, including one involving a whole village that had refused to pay the tax coming with the electricity bill.

But was it done in response to a PAME policy set by its leadership or was it done because of an initiative by people that just happen to be members of PAME.

Because i honestly expect this to be a move by the electricians instead of PAME officials.

A Marxist Historian

15th February 2012, 20:12

Hmm, I thought revolution was all about the workers taking control over the means of production. If revolution is just about killing others then you can't condemn anarchists throwing fire-bombs at the police. After all, they are a class enemy, are they not?

Throwing fire bombs at the cops is a purely tactical question. Is this the right time to be doing that now in Greece? I'm not there, I don't know.

Now, throwing firebombs at petty bourgeois shops of shopkeepers, or at KKE rallies, as disgusting as the KKE policies might be, that's another matter. Do the anarchists (or rather, some anarchists) do this, as the KKE claims? I'm not there, can't say for sure. Their claims however that the anarchists are all police provocateurs is classic Stalinist bullshit that can be dismissed out of hand.

Revolution is not about killing people, it is about one class taking over control, not merely of what factories produce, but over all of society, from another. It is about smashing the tool of the bourgeoisie to rule over society, their state and their police, and replacing them with our own state and our own police, so that the working class can administer the transformation of capitalist society into socialist society.

As the police are the state, yes, at some point in the process, we have to shoot them in the face. Is that time right now? A purely tactical question.

-M.H.-

marl

15th February 2012, 20:24

What's the current situation in Greece?

The Douche

15th February 2012, 20:43

Throwing fire bombs at the cops is a purely tactical question. Is this the right time to be doing that now in Greece? I'm not there, I don't know.

Now, throwing firebombs at petty bourgeois shops of shopkeepers, or at KKE rallies, as disgusting as the KKE policies might be, that's another matter. Do the anarchists (or rather, some anarchists) do this, as the KKE claims? I'm not there, can't say for sure. Their claims however that the anarchists are all police provocateurs is classic Stalinist bullshit that can be dismissed out of hand.

Revolution is not about killing people, it is about one class taking over control, not merely of what factories produce, but over all of society, from another. It is about smashing the tool of the bourgeoisie to rule over society, their state and their police, and replacing them with our own state and our own police, so that the working class can administer the transformation of capitalist society into socialist society.

As the police are the state, yes, at some point in the process, we have to shoot them in the face. Is that time right now? A purely tactical question.

-M.H.-

Anarchists, have at times, used molotovs on KKE demonstrators, most recently, when a KKE line attacked a group of anarchist and independent protesters for trying to march on the parliament.

KKE's position is that the anarchists cause rallies to be dispersed, therefor anarchists have to be stopped, why the KKE thinks their rallies are more important that the rallies of other organizations, I don't know. And why they think their rallies are so much more important, that they must use their supporters to stand on the side of the police and defend parliament, I don't know.

Essentially the KKE says there should not be revolution right now, just peaceful rallies, and if you try to do anything other than that, they will attack you.

KurtFF8

16th February 2012, 02:44

Essentially the KKE says there should not be revolution right now, just peaceful rallies, and if you try to do anything other than that, they will attack you.

This is just false, however. The KKE does call for revolution. Regardless of whether you think that it's genuine or not, the "they aren't for socialism/revolution/etc." is just not accurate compared to the statements by them that I've seen.

A lot of statements like this seem to be very rhetorical attacks on the KKE versus actually constructive critique/criticism.

PhoenixAsh

16th February 2012, 03:05

THe statement of the KKE on the events on the 12 explicitly states...and I quote:

The KKE calls on the working class, the people, the youth to a state of readiness and vigilance to impede any attempt to take authoritarian measures.

This line directly refers to the "hooded ones" and any action taken that will lead to police repression and interverance with demonstrations and rallies.

Now...I do NOT know about you...but I think revolution will pretty much elicit a police response and authoritarian measures to be taken.

Compare this with the statements of the KKE members of parliament...who state: "you will be accountable when the time comes" and demand certain actions of the parliament....do NOT indicate a call for the people to rise up and take over.

Now does it?

piet11111

16th February 2012, 05:38

But was it done in response to a PAME policy set by its leadership or was it done because of an initiative by people that just happen to be members of PAME.

Because i honestly expect this to be a move by the electricians instead of PAME officials.

Anyone ?

This is just false, however. The KKE does call for revolution. Regardless of whether you think that it's genuine or not, the "they aren't for socialism/revolution/etc." is just not accurate compared to the statements by them that I've seen.

Well in the past a lot of socialist in name party's called for revolution but when the time came they stabbed the working class in the back and later claimed the time was not ready.
Their statements make it look like they where waiting on the perfect revolution to fall off a tree but we all know that we have to make it happen.

The KKE are in a great position but they seem determined to take a parliamentary road and avoid putting the unpredictable working class in control as that would be "hooded anarchists turning the streets into chaos"

The Douche

16th February 2012, 14:34

This is just false, however. The KKE does call for revolution. Regardless of whether you think that it's genuine or not, the "they aren't for socialism/revolution/etc." is just not accurate compared to the statements by them that I've seen.

A lot of statements like this seem to be very rhetorical attacks on the KKE versus actually constructive critique/criticism.

I said "right now", look at the posts of any KKE member, they always say "Greece is not about to have revolution", "this is not a revolutionary situation", etc.

Omsk

16th February 2012, 14:53

Are most of the rioters anarchists?

If the answer is 'yes' than i dont see what is the problem.

The Douche

16th February 2012, 15:28

Are most of the rioters anarchists?

If the answer is 'yes' than i dont see what is the problem.

Look at these anarchist taxi drivers waving Greek flasg as they riot:

A7O_dgCTIyw

I guess this old woman could be an anarchist, but I think the KKE would insist she is a fascist:

cnEvvM-31Vk

Omsk

16th February 2012, 23:29

Dunk

17th February 2012, 07:40

You dont understand cmoney.

You are attacking the KKE for not wanting a revolution right now.
And yet they have every right to do so,if they do not agree with anarchists.

You are attacking the KKE for being hostile to anarchists.

Yet you and your anarchist friends said that they would not support "Stalinists" and you do not agree with the "Stalinist bs".

What is the deal here?

And you criticize the KKE for not taking the direct revolutionary path,and yet you say [you anarchists] that you would fight against them(If the revolution succeeded)??

If there were a successful revolution, the KKE would be abolished alongside every other liberal democratic political organization. Not banned; abolished - in the sense that it's form would be made absurd.

Omsk

17th February 2012, 08:46

Oh really?Just like that?And the KKE members?Would they be abolished too?Not in the sense that they would be rounded up and shot by the anarchists,or whatever cliqe that would end up in charge?

The Douche

17th February 2012, 14:33

You dont understand cmoney.

You are attacking the KKE for not wanting a revolution right now.
And yet they have every right to do so,if they do not agree with anarchists.

You are attacking the KKE for being hostile to anarchists.

Yet you and your anarchist friends said that they would not support "Stalinists" and you do not agree with the "Stalinist bs".

What is the deal here?

And you criticize the KKE for not taking the direct revolutionary path,and yet you say [you anarchists] that you would fight against them(If the revolution succeeded)??

I, as somebody who supports communism, must also oppose social-democratic organizations, parliamentarian organizations, and all organizations who seek to absorb and redirect the energies of the working class.

The KKE is an institution which claims to support and organize for revolution, but in reality sits in the parliament which has pushed through austerity, has attacked, killed, tortured, and imprisoned communists, and openly states that it does not currently support revolution in Greece.

The KKE is a farce.

Omsk

17th February 2012, 16:38

I, as somebody who supports communism, must also oppose social-democratic organizations, parliamentarian organizations, and all organizations who seek to absorb and redirect the energies of the working class.

The KKE is an institution which claims to support and organize for revolution, but in reality sits in the parliament which has pushed through austerity, has attacked, killed, tortured, and imprisoned communists, and openly states that it does not currently support revolution in Greece.

The KKE is a farce.

Well,than why did your anarchist friends criticize the KKE on the fact that it was not revolutionary enough?

You want a KKE led revolution?

Sasha

17th February 2012, 17:12

no, we want the KKE to stop pretending that they are a revolutionairy force and stop giving a false sense of working towards te revolution to workers while actually utilising them as contra-revolutionary forces.

the KKE is a sheep in wolves clothing

KurtFF8

17th February 2012, 17:34

The KKE is an institution which claims to support and organize for revolution, but in reality sits in the parliament which has pushed through austerity...

But the KKE MPs have voted against austerity and caused a stir in that very same parliament.

Their presence in parliament isn't what made austerity pass.

piet11111

17th February 2012, 18:13

But the KKE MPs have voted against austerity and caused a stir in that very same parliament.

Their presence in parliament isn't what made austerity pass.

They where able to vote against it because its was obvious from the start that it would pass anyway.

Keep up credibility in the public eye but with the elections coming up in Greece in a few months then the KKE can show its true colors.

Decolonize The Left

17th February 2012, 19:18

You dont understand cmoney.

You are attacking the KKE for not wanting a revolution right now.
And yet they have every right to do so,if they do not agree with anarchists.

You are attacking the KKE for being hostile to anarchists.

Yet you and your anarchist friends said that they would not support "Stalinists" and you do not agree with the "Stalinist bs".

What is the deal here?

And you criticize the KKE for not taking the direct revolutionary path,and yet you say [you anarchists] that you would fight against them(If the revolution succeeded)??

Good god man, this isn't about Stalinists vs. Anarchists or any other bullshit internet argument.

This is about the working class in Greece who on the streets. So-called "working-class organizations" should be out there on the front lines against the police - that's what they're supposed to represent right?

- August

bcbm

17th February 2012, 19:30

not just against the police but building counter power to the state

Decolonize The Left

17th February 2012, 19:36

not just against the police but building counter power to the state

No doubt. I was referring specifically to the act of sitting in parliament debating austerity measures in the first place while the people are out on the streets.

- August

Dunk

17th February 2012, 19:59

Oh really?Just like that?And the KKE members?Would they be abolished too?Not in the sense that they would be rounded up and shot by the anarchists,or whatever cliqe that would end up in charge?

The clique in charge being...the working class - then again, describing the clique being in charge as the working class is also absurd because class society would be abolished and it would simply be a single class of producers. If the socialist mode of production comes to replace the capitalist mode, the state is abolished. An organization which functions in the capitalist state isn't structured to work in a communist society. For example, having a national committee when there is no nation-state is absurd.

The Douche

17th February 2012, 20:10

Well,than why did your anarchist friends criticize the KKE on the fact that it was not revolutionary enough?

You want a KKE led revolution?

I want communism. If the KKE can contribute to that, then I support the KKE, but I don't think they can, so I don't support them.

A Marxist Historian

17th February 2012, 20:18

The clique in charge being...the working class - then again, describing the clique being in charge as the working class is also absurd because class society would be abolished and it would simply be a single class of producers. If the socialist mode of production comes to replace the capitalist mode, the state is abolished. An organization which functions in the capitalist state isn't structured to work in a communist society. For example, having a national committee when there is no nation-state is absurd.

This is truly absurd, especially in Greece, a classic land of the small shopkeeper, where there are zillions of them. The idea that you can issue a proclamation or something and "abolish class society" overnight, the morning after the workers seize the power, is downright insane.

What are you going to do with them? Not shoot them presumably. Take away their little shops? Or just toss in Molotovs and burn them to the ground? Well, assuming you don't burn them to death in the fire, they will fight to defend them tooth and nail, guns in hand, so you end up shooting them.

No, what the workers need to do is firstly win them to our side vs. the bankers and so forth squeezing them to death and bankrupting them, then try to organize them into cooperatives, for a slow, voluntary transition to socialism as the economy makes some serious progress under our Five Year Plans to industrialize Greece.

This is assuming that the revolution spreads beyond Greek borders, so that this is doable. If it doesn't, Greece gets strangled economically, and either goes back to capitalism through a violent counterrevolution, or bureaucratizes into some new version of Stalinism.

-M.H.-

Os Cangaceiros

17th February 2012, 21:19

Shoot them! We build socialism by the bullet, as it's always been built!

Dunk

17th February 2012, 21:28

This is truly absurd, especially in Greece, a classic land of the small shopkeeper, where there are zillions of them. The idea that you can issue a proclamation or something and "abolish class society" overnight, the morning after the workers seize the power, is downright insane.

What are you going to do with them? Not shoot them presumably. Take away their little shops? Or just toss in Molotovs and burn them to the ground? Well, assuming you don't burn them to death in the fire, they will fight to defend them tooth and nail, guns in hand, so you end up shooting them.

No, what the workers need to do is firstly win them to our side vs. the bankers and so forth squeezing them to death and bankrupting them, then try to organize them into cooperatives, for a slow, voluntary transition to socialism as the economy makes some serious progress under our Five Year Plans to industrialize Greece.

This is assuming that the revolution spreads beyond Greek borders, so that this is doable. If it doesn't, Greece gets strangled economically, and either goes back to capitalism through a violent counterrevolution, or bureaucratizes into some new version of Stalinism.

-M.H.-

Communization is not a gradual process. It's not realized by any five year plans. The transformation of the private into the common is not something enacted by state decree or proclaimed, even by some political organization which has nationalized industry, planning the ongoings of value production and waving pretty red flags. It is accomplished by the creation of a political commons where the great majority of the working class enters to decide how to control the productive forces of society. You can't plant a red flag on a factory floor and say, SOCIALIST NOW LOL, just as you can't have a brute decree that socialism exists now in our one country, the time for struggle is over. For the socialist mode of production to be created at all, workers must produce for use instead of exchange. That is the expropriation of the expropriator, that is communization.

Are you really touting the petite bourgeoisie as a serious impediment to the success of social revolution? I seriously doubt that the great majority of Greeks aren't workers, or that the size of the petite bourgeoisie as a class demands that some kind of ephemeral alliance must be struck. It doesn't matter whether individual shop owners ally themselves with the proletariat. The proletariat should steam roll over them whether atomized individuals want it or not. Say Venizelos the small shop owner in Heraklion doesn't like that the working class has begun production for use. What's he going to do about it when the great bulk of society doesn't use money and gets what they need through socialist production?

He'll fight "tooth and nail" as you've said - but the more of the working class that revolts and begins production for use, the less able is the counterrevolution to succeed.

KurtFF8

17th February 2012, 21:33

They where able to vote against it because its was obvious from the start that it would pass anyway.

Keep up credibility in the public eye but with the elections coming up in Greece in a few months then the KKE can show its true colors.

I guess we can always speculate on the "real" motivations for actions, but the fact is: you can't blame the KKE for these austerity measures at the level of parliament, because their participation at that level has been that of opposition to those measures.

The Douche

17th February 2012, 21:36

piet11111

17th February 2012, 22:20

I guess we can always speculate on the "real" motivations for actions, but the fact is: you can't blame the KKE for these austerity measures at the level of parliament, because their participation at that level has been that of opposition to those measures.

I can not blame them as they are still in opposition but when they get to be a part of the government they will betray the working class i have no doubt about that.

Unless they prove me wrong of course and i would actually welcome that but the trackrecord for such party's with that many years of parliamentary activity is dreadful.

Omsk

17th February 2012, 23:17

I want communism. If the KKE can contribute to that, then I support the KKE, but I don't think they can, so I don't support them.

And if they could "contribute" to the cause,would you support them?

piet11111

18th February 2012, 10:45

And if they could "contribute" to the cause,would you support them?

They are already in a position where they can contribute but so far they insist on isolating themselves from other groups and forcing their methods on others by force if they have to.

KurtFF8

18th February 2012, 15:33

They still participate in the government that has implements austerity.

They participate in a parliament, attempting to block austerity. Is the KKE helping implement austerity measures?

The Douche

18th February 2012, 15:36

They participate in a parliament, attempting to block austerity. Is the KKE helping implement austerity measures?

Yes, parliamentary opposition movements are a necessary part of a functioning bourgeois democracy. The KKE plays the role of the social steam vent.

KurtFF8

18th February 2012, 16:27

piet11111

18th February 2012, 16:47

The KKE plays the role of the social steam vent.

Exactly as is proven by the 1 or 2 day general strikes that they are so supportive of.

The Douche

18th February 2012, 17:32

To some extent I agree, there is the question of "loyal opposition." The real questions, which cannot be answered merely be looking at whether they are just present in parliament or not, is what role they see themselves playing there and how they plan to use that position to promote the working class struggle. Obviously folks like yourself believe that it is mere opportunism, and that may be true to an extent. I'm willing to give them a little bit more credit, although I don't know as much about their history (other than a little bit about the immediate post-war period).

Where are the KKE's calls for indefinite general strike? Where is the KKE's formation of alternative structures to capitalist state? Both these things are disturbingly lacking from the KKE, especially considering their mass base.

That, combined with the recent actions, physically attacking other elements of the movement (not just anarchists), and their historical actions of jailing/killing other communists, is more than a little disturbing.

So knowing what they lack, what they do, what they have done before, and also looking at the role of official communist parties in past historical situations (especially May 68), I feel confident in my assertion that communism will happen in spite of, not with the help of, the KKE.

Os Cangaceiros

18th February 2012, 17:35

The real questions, which cannot be answered merely be looking at whether they are just present in parliament or not, is what role they see themselves playing there

Isn't the role they're actually playing more important than the role they see themselves as playing? I'm sure that the PCI thought that they weren't the traitors they were during the late 60's/early 70's in Italy, either, despite that they were playing the same role the KKE are playing in Greece right now, ie the proverbial steam valve.

A Marxist Historian

18th February 2012, 17:46

Communization is not a gradual process. It's not realized by any five year plans. The transformation of the private into the common is not something enacted by state decree or proclaimed, even by some political organization which has nationalized industry, planning the ongoings of value production and waving pretty red flags. It is accomplished by the creation of a political commons where the great majority of the working class enters to decide how to control the productive forces of society. You can't plant a red flag on a factory floor and say, SOCIALIST NOW LOL, just as you can't have a brute decree that socialism exists now in our one country, the time for struggle is over. For the socialist mode of production to be created at all, workers must produce for use instead of exchange. That is the expropriation of the expropriator, that is communization.

Are you really touting the petite bourgeoisie as a serious impediment to the success of social revolution? I seriously doubt that the great majority of Greeks aren't workers, or that the size of the petite bourgeoisie as a class demands that some kind of ephemeral alliance must be struck. It doesn't matter whether individual shop owners ally themselves with the proletariat. The proletariat should steam roll over them whether atomized individuals want it or not. Say Venizelos the small shop owner in Heraklion doesn't like that the working class has begun production for use. What's he going to do about it when the great bulk of society doesn't use money and gets what they need through socialist production?

He'll fight "tooth and nail" as you've said - but the more of the working class that revolts and begins production for use, the less able is the counterrevolution to succeed.

Thank you, comrade Stalin, for your contribution as to how to deal with the petty bourgeoisie, steamrollering right over them whether the kulaks wanted it or not. However, your notions did not work too well as to agriculture in Ukraine, there was a famine.

Seriously, the problem with this ideas is simple. Labor productivity. At first, until you get those Five Year Plans going properly (Stalin your cothinker tried to forcibly collectivize agriculture *before* the factories the workers were building had cranked out any decent tractors), and until the working class figures out how to produce goods better quality and cheaper than capitalist producers, big or small, can produce them, the petty and even more so the big bourgeoisie can produce stuff better and cheaper than the workers can, so consumers will want their goods instead of ours.

If you forcibly collectivize everything at gunpoint in Greece so people don't have a choice--well, guess what, most goods consumed in Greece are produced outside Greece these days, by foreign capitalists. So you get the Eastern European problem, of people wanting capitalist restoration to get Western European consumer goods and living standards.

Instant collectivism on your model, the day after the revolution in Greece, would result in poverty, starvation, and a huge, extremely popular, mass movement of the whole Greek population, including a lot of workers, to re-establish capitalism in Greece to save the situation.

As for your fantasy of some sort of a "political commons" in which the workers have all become convinced communist collectivists ready and able to create a socialist society Right Now, well, that is the ultimate goal, but that will take a long time, maybe generations, and meanwhile Greece is in a revolutionary crisis Right Now.

What should the workers do, just let the capitalists run the country to the ground and destroy education, health, make everybody homeless and surviving on starvation wages, since the workers may well be up for overthrowing the government, though they are hardly all up for your future fantasies yet?

-M.H.-

Dunk

19th February 2012, 10:29

Thank you, comrade Stalin, for your contribution as to how to deal with the petty bourgeoisie, steamrollering right over them whether the kulaks wanted it or not. However, your notions did not work too well as to agriculture in Ukraine, there was a famine.

I've been accused by plenty of liberals of being a Stalinist, but have never been accused by a person advocating five year plans of being one.

Seriously, the problem with this ideas is simple. Labor productivity. At first, until you get those Five Year Plans going properly (Stalin your cothinker tried to forcibly collectivize agriculture *before* the factories the workers were building had cranked out any decent tractors), and until the working class figures out how to produce goods better quality and cheaper than capitalist producers, big or small, can produce them, the petty and even more so the big bourgeoisie can produce stuff better and cheaper than the workers can, so consumers will want their goods instead of ours.

Forgive me if I think that mimicking the failed methods of the past - especially the controlling of production by bureaucratic oligarchs, who never had, and never can lead the working class beyond value production is a complete and tragic waste of time.

If you forcibly collectivize everything at gunpoint in Greece so people don't have a choice--well, guess what, most goods consumed in Greece are produced outside Greece these days, by foreign capitalists. So you get the Eastern European problem, of people wanting capitalist restoration to get Western European consumer goods and living standards.

Instant collectivism on your model, the day after the revolution in Greece, would result in poverty, starvation, and a huge, extremely popular, mass movement of the whole Greek population, including a lot of workers, to re-establish capitalism in Greece to save the situation.

As for your fantasy of some sort of a "political commons" in which the workers have all become convinced communist collectivists ready and able to create a socialist society Right Now, well, that is the ultimate goal, but that will take a long time, maybe generations, and meanwhile Greece is in a revolutionary crisis Right Now.

Alright, let me try to summarize what you've said. You seem to think I stand by some kind of guerrilla factions virtually representing the working class, forcing them to accept "collectivization," rather than the working class acting as a class for itself to seize the productive forces of society, that social revolution will lead to starvation, the working class will be impoverished when they seize control of the productive forces of society, that creating a political commons is a fantasy, that an immediate break with value production isn't what we need, but you seem to imply that the seizure of the capitalist state or the nationalization of industry is what is needed right now, simply because "workers may be ready for that" but not for socialist production?

What should the workers do, just let the capitalists run the country to the ground and destroy education, health, make everybody homeless and surviving on starvation wages, since the workers may well be up for overthrowing the government, though they are hardly all up for your future fantasies yet?

-M.H.-

No, they shouldn't allow any of that. They should have a social revolution to stop that from happening. The only way to break with capitalism is to halt value production and instead produce for use. There is no other way.

So, in my atomistic little opinion, I think our class, anywhere, everywhere, should carry out an immediate and indefinite strike, during which the overwhelming majority of our class should enter a political commons which only we can create as a class, to decide what and how we're going to produce for use among ourselves.

If they're up for overthrowing the government and not the state and all existing social conditions they'll soon come to discover that that isn't enough. Even if they can't individually articulate their unrest, they'll know that nothing has really changed. Like in Egypt. Hopefully this will help them to discover the truth. That what we need is a social revolution, right now.

brigadista

19th February 2012, 12:00

think that the greek people have a long memory - they were occupied by the 3rd reich and lived under and defeated a military dictatorship in the recent past - unlike other euro countries [except portugal] they have the most potential and consciousness for change - have some faith in them...

bcbm

20th February 2012, 19:15

they were occupied by the 3rd reich and lived under and defeated a military dictatorship in the recent past - unlike other euro countries [except portugal]

spain...

Sasha

20th February 2012, 19:21

Spain never overthrew the fascists, they "transitioned"

bcbm

20th February 2012, 19:28

there was a lot of tension during that period but yah was never full blown youre right

Grenzer

21st February 2012, 02:09

I think Kurt has a point. Surely if it wasn't the KKE participating as "The opposition" then it'd be another group, perhaps worse. Make no mistake I'm no fan of the KKE and can't see them doing anything constructive.

The Greek workers are getting fucked over and it doesn't seem like they are going to overthrow the government anytime soon. On the positive side, the current struggles are setting the framework for revolution at a later date, perhaps when the world as a whole will be more amenable to it.

A Marxist Historian

21st February 2012, 09:36

I've been accused by plenty of liberals of being a Stalinist, but have never been accused by a person advocating five year plans of being one.

The idea was stolen from Trotsky by Stalin. In itself, a fine idea, problem being that Stalin's five year plans were crap.

Forgive me if I think that mimicking the failed methods of the past - especially the controlling of production by bureaucratic oligarchs, who never had, and never can lead the working class beyond value production is a complete and tragic waste of time.

Alright, let me try to summarize what you've said. You seem to think I stand by some kind of guerrilla factions virtually representing the working class, forcing them to accept "collectivization," rather than the working class acting as a class for itself to seize the productive forces of society, that social revolution will lead to starvation, the working class will be impoverished when they seize control of the productive forces of society, that creating a political commons is a fantasy, that an immediate break with value production isn't what we need, but you seem to imply that the seizure of the capitalist state or the nationalization of industry is what is needed right now, simply because "workers may be ready for that" but not for socialist production?

If the workers smash the capitalist state and set up their own, like in Russia in 1917, then they have control of the productive forces, seems to me. Just like in the USSR.

Trouble was that Stalin and his bureaucratic oligarchs took over after a few years, which the Left Opposition fought against.

I'm not totally sure what you mean by a "break with value production," and frankly I don't think you know what you mean either. It's just an abstract bookish fantasy of yours, no connection with real life.

For a socialist society, you need to abolish all class distinctions, and, at bare minimum, you need the entire population of the planet with decent living standards. We're far, far away from that. In fact, even in the imperialist centers you have people homeless and eating out of garbage dumps these days.

Briefly, some Bolsheviks had similar fantasies at the peak of War Communism, and you had a recrudescence of that at the height of Stalin's first Five Year Plan, with delusions about how it would create instant socialism and instant prosperity, until the famine brought everybody down to earth.

And now, with the capitalists ravaging the planet with wars and industrial collapse, with entire cities like Detroit and New Orleans turning into wasteland, to say nothing of what's going on in the Third World, with ecological catastrophe impending, you think we could establish instant socialism tomorrow? You're crazy.

No, they shouldn't allow any of that. They should have a social revolution to stop that from happening. The only way to break with capitalism is to halt value production and instead produce for use. There is no other way.

That can only be done on a world scale, as the capitalist market dominates the world. Doing it in some little corner or other of the world inevitably would fail. Stalin had his huge state apparatus to try to make it work, so he and his successors could limp along propping that up for a few generations. You guys don't believe in "bureaucratic authority," so you would be instant failures.

By the way, if you actually took a look at those five year plans you sneer at, they were always based on "material balances," i.e. production for use, not value production. In fact, that was one of the problems with them. Not practical in a world capitalist market, where an isolated noncapitalist state has to have production run on a basis of a combination, as Trotsky put it, of "workers democracy, planning and the market."

Stalinists figured out that they needed the market element in there to make it work, so you get "market socialism" during the degenerative process. Somehow, the democracy part never appealed to them...

So, in my atomistic little opinion, I think our class, anywhere, everywhere, should carry out an immediate and indefinite strike, during which the overwhelming majority of our class should enter a political commons which only we can create as a class, to decide what and how we're going to produce for use among ourselves.

If they're up for overthrowing the government and not the state and all existing social conditions they'll soon come to discover that that isn't enough. Even if they can't individually articulate their unrest, they'll know that nothing has really changed. Like in Egypt. Hopefully this will help them to discover the truth. That what we need is a social revolution, right now.

That is what we need. Yes, overthrow the bourgeois state. We need a new ruling class, the working class. Which can decide how to transform social conditions. "Overthrowing" social conditions doesn't even make sense grammatically, it is a sign of your confusion.

As for your pipe dream of an immediate, universal strike, and then "entry into a political commons," whatever the hell that is, sounds like an Internet fantasy, if that somehow happened, the capitalist state would smash it.

You can't overthrow capitalism "with folded hands," like in the old IWW fantasy. You need an armed revolution led by a vanguard party that knows what to do and how to do it.

-M.H.-

Dunk

23rd February 2012, 02:13

If the workers smash the capitalist state and set up their own, like in Russia in 1917, then they have control of the productive forces, seems to me. Just like in the USSR.

Then you're seriously mistaken.

A tiny minority representing the interests of and controlling the productive forces of society on behalf of the working class (or so was their fantasy) is not the common control of the productive forces of society. Without common control and production for use, the logical conclusion of social democracy is the nationalization of industry but not a break with production for the sake of value, because a break with it can't happen without common control and production for use.

I'm not totally sure what you mean by a "break with value production," and frankly I don't think you know what you mean either. It's just an abstract bookish fantasy of yours, no connection with real life.

Value production is production for the sake of production, the production of value for the sake of value, and not for the sake of people. You want the defining hallmark of capitalism - it isn't wage labor, it isn't even a market economy, it's the external world of value which seeks to reproduce itself seemingly independent of the will of human beings. It's why we live in a world where corporations are people, and we're just an expendable pool of equipment for them to reproduce themselves. That's not a bookish fantasy, it's indispensable to understanding how we can get beyond capitalism, something which no five year plan, however finely tuned, under bureaucratic oligarchs could ever hope to accomplish.

For a socialist society, you need to abolish all class distinctions, and, at bare minimum, you need the entire population of the planet with decent living standards. We're far, far away from that. In fact, even in the imperialist centers you have people homeless and eating out of garbage dumps these days.

As I read the above, it seems you're suggesting a redistribution of commodities, whether food, housing, etc to equalize living standards among people is part and parcel to abolishing class society. It's not. The socialist mode of production is what can enable a stateless and classless society to exist. One person having a few extra personal possessions versus the next person has no bearing on their social relations. Seizing the productive forces of society for common control and use is about access. Yes, it can lead to all of these wonderful things like the abolition of poverty, of homelessness. But making sure that everyone has the same number of radios and televisions isn't the same as making sure everyone has equal access and control over production.

Why production for use? What's so important about the common control of the productive forces of society by the producers themselves - why can't they be controlled by the enlightened, professional revolutionaries on behalf of the stupid laboring masses?

Common control enables production for use. Production for use does not allow for the extraction of a surplus. Common control ensures that what is needed to be produced actually does get produced, since the single class of producers is conveniently also the single class of consumers.

You seem to have this idea that communism is something achieved incrementally, generationally, bit by bit by the organizational vanguard which gloriously leads the people they rule to their liberation through their elite control of the productive forces of society - even long, long after the revolution. It's not. Hasn't been, and never will be established by an organizational vanguard, virtually representing the interests of the working class. It can only be achieved by the working class. This is your critical error which leads you to think that the methods of the catastrophic failures of social democratic praxis should be repeated.

It's not instantaneous, it's not a single rapturous event, but it's certainly not an incremental, generational process. The revolution itself isn't just an uprising in the streets. It's not hundreds of thousands of people burning parliament to the ground, or filling it to the brim with people wearing hammer and sickle lapels. It's people taking common control of production, and this taking of control spreading worldwide until the process of capital accumulation is abolished.

You're crazy...Doing it in some little corner or other of the world inevitably would fail...You need an armed revolution led by a vanguard party that knows what to do and how to do it.

-M.H.-

It has to start somewhere. It has to start sometime. What better place than here? What better time than now? ;) Also, what I think is crazy is what I've bolded.

A Marxist Historian

23rd February 2012, 09:25

Then you're seriously mistaken.

A tiny minority representing the interests of and controlling the productive forces of society on behalf of the working class (or so was their fantasy) is not the common control of the productive forces of society. Without common control and production for use, the logical conclusion of social democracy is the nationalization of industry but not a break with production for the sake of value, because a break with it can't happen without common control and production for use.

Hm? production for use as opposed to profit for capitalists was the fundamental nature of the Soviet economy, even under Stalin. Unlike social-democratic nationalizations as with say steel in England, which profited the bankrupt steel capitalists in England enormously.

Now, with a privileged bureaucracy running production instead of the working class, things often went very badly. But trying to claim that soviet planning and production was about profit instead of use is just plain silly.

Value production is production for the sake of production, the production of value for the sake of value, and not for the sake of people. You want the defining hallmark of capitalism - it isn't wage labor, it isn't even a market economy, it's the external world of value which seeks to reproduce itself seemingly independent of the will of human beings. It's why we live in a world where corporations are people, and we're just an expendable pool of equipment for them to reproduce themselves. That's not a bookish fantasy, it's indispensable to understanding how we can get beyond capitalism, something which no five year plan, however finely tuned, under bureaucratic oligarchs could ever hope to accomplish.

So when the Soviets mined coal or built a railroad or made steel, this was for "value"? To make a profit? That's absurd. To make a profit they'd have to sell it to somebody after all. No, it was for use, for things the Soviet people needed. Such as tanks to hold off Hitler, and ICBMs to hold off America, for example. As well of course as housing, subways, hospitals, universities, etc. etc., all those things that were free in the USSR and cost an arm and a leg in capitalist societies.

Of course the bureaucrats creamed their cut off the top, but that is simply a corruption of the system, not evidence that the system was capitalist.

As I read the above, it seems you're suggesting a redistribution of commodities, whether food, housing, etc to equalize living standards among people is part and parcel to abolishing class society. It's not. The socialist mode of production is what can enable a stateless and classless society to exist. One person having a few extra personal possessions versus the next person has no bearing on their social relations. Seizing the productive forces of society for common control and use is about access. Yes, it can lead to all of these wonderful things like the abolition of poverty, of homelessness. But making sure that everyone has the same number of radios and televisions isn't the same as making sure everyone has equal access and control over production.

Actually you have it backwards, distribution is exactly where the Stalinist system fell down, with the bureaucrats definitely having more of the good things in life than the rank and file workers. But the basic mode of production, as opposed to distribution, was socialist, production for use not for profit. Which doesn't mean that the USSR was "socialist," as you can't build socialism, a classless society, in one country, just can't be done.

Of course the working class had no direct control over the production process, but that is a secondary consideration. There was no private ownership, and ownership is fundamentally more important than control, whether you are talking about a whole society, or about a capitalist corporation for that matter.

Why production for use? What's so important about the common control of the productive forces of society by the producers themselves - why can't they be controlled by the enlightened, professional revolutionaries on behalf of the stupid laboring masses?

Actually, I'm all for control by the working masses, as that works better. No tiny group of bureaucrats, no matter how enlightened, can foresee every detail of the economy. And so was Lenin, and so was Trotsky. Even Stalin was all in favor of that, in rhetoric. The practical reality on the ground being totally different of course. You need both centralized planning and democratic input at every level from the working people. And economic plans need to be submitted to workers councils, discussed, debated and voted on, as they were under Lenin, not imposed from the top as under Stalin.

If you want details as to exactly how the Trotskyists advocated control by the working masses, the Platform of the Left Opposition has been posted in the Learning section.

Common control enables production for use. Production for use does not allow for the extraction of a surplus. Common control ensures that what is needed to be produced actually does get produced, since the single class of producers is conveniently also the single class of consumers.

Does not allow for a surplus? Without a surplus, just how could you build a subway or an airport or in fact anything other than immediate consumer goods? That's absurd.

In a capitalist system, the surplus goes into the hands of the capitalists, who either consume it or reinvest it into production so that they can get more surplus value in the future.

With the working class in charge, the social surplus is used by the working class to improve things.

You seem to have this idea that communism is something achieved incrementally, generationally, bit by bit by the organizational vanguard which gloriously leads the people they rule to their liberation through their elite control of the productive forces of society - even long, long after the revolution. It's not. Hasn't been, and never will be established by an organizational vanguard, virtually representing the interests of the working class. It can only be achieved by the working class. This is your critical error which leads you to think that the methods of the catastrophic failures of social democratic praxis should be repeated.

To create a communist society, you have to have material abundance, so that we really can have "to each according to his need." Try to institute that the day after the revolution and the economy would collapse and people would probably be starving a few weeks after the warehouses were cleaned out.

Abolishing capitalism would break the chains on production the profit system imposes, and make possible the huge increase in the productivity of labor that a communist society would require. Believing that could be done instantaneously is just a fantasy.

In capitalist society, some workers have advanced consciousness, oppose racism, imperialism, etc. etc.--and some do not. So the most conscious workers, together with committed socialist intellectuals, need to organize themselves into a vanguard party, or we'd just get some sort of "Archie Bunker" socialism, white, male, European dominated. In fact that's pretty much Brezhnevism come to think of it.

How long will it take for the whole working class to attain a uniform high level of consciousness, so that a separate vanguard party becomes unnecessary? Well, of course consciousness changes by leaps and bounds during a revolution, but it can change back too as people get tired and burnt-out. So we'll see.

Right now you have a lot more workers in America supporting the Tea Party than any kind of socialism. So yes, you need a vanguard party of the working class.

It's not instantaneous, it's not a single rapturous event, but it's certainly not an incremental, generational process. The revolution itself isn't just an uprising in the streets. It's not hundreds of thousands of people burning parliament to the ground, or filling it to the brim with people wearing hammer and sickle lapels. It's people taking common control of production, and this taking of control spreading worldwide until the process of capital accumulation is abolished.

It has to start somewhere. It has to start sometime. What better place than here? What better time than now? ;) Also, what I think is crazy is what I've bolded.

Workers taking control over their particular shops and factories is not the revolution. The revolution is when homelessness, unemployment, racism, imperialist wars, colonialism, and all the other horrible results of capitalism can be abolished, because the workers have smashed the capitalist state and created their own workers state to run things. Who decides what widget gets produced next week is just far, far less important than that.

And wouldn't necessarily help one bit with the more important issues, as Yugoslavia, where workers really did pretty much have day-to-day control over production at their particular factories, illustrated.

Universal workers control just meant different factories competing with each other, giving rise quickly to national and ethnic rivalries, and we all know what happened next.

-M.H.-

Dunk

23rd February 2012, 23:21

Hm? production for use as opposed to profit for capitalists was the fundamental nature of the Soviet economy, even under Stalin. Unlike social-democratic nationalizations as with say steel in England, which profited the bankrupt steel capitalists in England enormously.

Now, with a privileged bureaucracy running production instead of the working class, things often went very badly. But trying to claim that soviet planning and production was about profit instead of use is just plain silly...
Of course the bureaucrats creamed their cut off the top, but that is simply a corruption of the system, not evidence that the system was capitalist.

Even in the initial years of the fSU, didn't Lenin himself describe the Soviet economy as state-monopoly capitalist? As in, the entire economy operated as a single firm, extracting a surplus from the workers.

I don't think you can describe what was done as production for use, advocate an organizational vanguard to literally control nationalized industry instead of common control, and then acknowledge the privileged ruling class of bureaucrats - which can only exist at all if a surplus is extracted. This is inconsistent.

But the basic mode of production, as opposed to distribution, was socialist, production for use not for profit. Which doesn't mean that the USSR was "socialist," as you can't build socialism, a classless society, in one country, just can't be done.

This is contradictory. You're saying the mode of production in the fSU was socialist, and at the same time say you can't have socialism in one country.

Of course the working class had no direct control over the production process, but that is a secondary consideration. There was no private ownership, and ownership is fundamentally more important than control, whether you are talking about a whole society, or about a capitalist corporation for that matter.

How can a person own something, if some privileged bureaucracy with secret police at their disposal never allows you to exert control over production? Not only that, those privileged bureaucrats outlaw unions - and not based on revolutionary justifications, they outlawed them because of what an enormous contradiction and embarrassment it is for your working class to realize they need to form unions against the party bosses.

Control is the action which realizes ownership.

Actually, I'm all for control by the working masses, as that works better. No tiny group of bureaucrats, no matter how enlightened, can foresee every detail of the economy. And so was Lenin, and so was Trotsky. Even Stalin was all in favor of that, in rhetoric. The practical reality on the ground being totally different of course.

This is just more inconsistency. If you're for common control and production for use, you can't also be for the nationalization of industry and the rule of a bureaucratic oligarchy. One doesn't lead to the other, one enables communism to exist, and one leads right back to capitalism, as has been demonstrated by it's historical failure.

Does not allow for a surplus? Without a surplus, just how could you build a subway or an airport or in fact anything other than immediate consumer goods? That's absurd.

So you think a financial system is inextricable from socialist production? I don't think so. I don't think capital is creative, I think it's labor that's creative.

In capitalist society, some workers have advanced consciousness, oppose racism, imperialism, etc. etc.--and some do not. So the most conscious workers, together with committed socialist intellectuals, need to organize themselves into a vanguard party, or we'd just get some sort of "Archie Bunker" socialism, white, male, European dominated. In fact that's pretty much Brezhnevism come to think of it.

How long will it take for the whole working class to attain a uniform high level of consciousness, so that a separate vanguard party becomes unnecessary? Well, of course consciousness changes by leaps and bounds during a revolution, but it can change back too as people get tired and burnt-out. So we'll see.

If the revolution occurs, it's certain that some local leaders will emerge. But let's be clear about this; a guerrilla faction or a tiny organizational "vanguard" is not the working class. The class must act for itself to establish socialist production. Socialist production requires common ownership and production for use. Common ownership can only be realized through common control. Common control can only be enabled by a democratic process. Without socialist production, communism is impossible.

Right now you have a lot more workers in America supporting the Tea Party than any kind of socialism. So yes, you need a vanguard party of the working class.

What parts of your response I subtracted, I think I've essentially responded to above.

If the working class isn't sufficiently conscious to act for itself, there will be no socialist production or communist society until it does.

At the founding of the International we expressly formulated the battle cry: The emancipation of the working class must be achieved by the working class itself. Hence we cannot co-operate with men who say openly that the workers are too uneducated to emancipate themselves, and must first be emancipated from above by philanthropic members of the upper and lower middle classes.

A Marxist Historian

24th February 2012, 04:38

Even in the initial years of the fSU, didn't Lenin himself describe the Soviet economy as state-monopoly capitalist? As in, the entire economy operated as a single firm, extracting a surplus from the workers.

No, he did no such thing. An urban myth spread by the Cliffites. When he talked about "state capitalism," he meant favoritism by the workers state to private capitalists, kulaks, NEPmen, foreign investors. He always referred to the state sector of the mixed Soviet economy of the NEP period as the "socialist sector."

We've gone over this many times in other threads.

I don't think you can describe what was done as production for use, advocate an organizational vanguard to literally control nationalized industry instead of common control, and then acknowledge the privileged ruling class of bureaucrats - which can only exist at all if a surplus is extracted. This is inconsistent.

Indeed, and this is what the Stalinists did, while of course claiming otherwise. Though the bureaucrats weren't a ruling class, they were just bureaucrats. Just like corporate managers, or trade union bureaucrats, aren't classes, they are employees of classes, though often very bossy ones, as any union member or ignored stockholder can tell you.

When and where did Lenin or Trotsky advocate control of industry by some organized vanguard instead of common control? In practice, given the collapse of Soviet industry and the Soviet working class itself, due to famine and civil war, this is more or less of what happened, but was never what the Bolsheviks wanted to happen.

This is contradictory. You're saying the mode of production in the fSU was socialist, and at the same time say you can't have socialism in one country.

Socialism means more than just abolishing private capitalism. It means complete abolition of classes and class distinctions. And it means providing a better life for the people than under any sort of capitalism, or what's the point?

The USSR was never able to do either. Certainly in Lenin's time it couldn't even conceivably come close, as 90% of the population were peasants, petty or not so petty capitalists. And, as we all know, Stalin's notion of compulsory collectivization didn't work too well, now did it?

But, in the state sector, the mode of production was of the socialist type, not the capitalist type. And the state sector never covered the whole of the economy. In particular, down on the farm, Stalin's collective farms were mostly cooperatives, formally speaking, as opposed to state ownership. Cooperatives drawing a profit from their production, after heavy deductions for the benefit of the workers and their state, and distributing the profits among the members of the collective, theoretically at least on an equal basis.

Therefore, a form of capitalism.

How can a person own something, if some privileged bureaucracy with secret police at their disposal never allows you to exert control over production? Not only that, those privileged bureaucrats outlaw unions - and not based on revolutionary justifications, they outlawed them because of what an enormous contradiction and embarrassment it is for your working class to realize they need to form unions against the party bosses.

Where did you hear that one? Unions were never outlawed, and continued to exist throughout the entire history of the USSR. Granted, they were extremely bureaucratic and authoritarian with their members, but that's not exactly a new story now is it?

How can a capitalist own something if the secret police are running everything? Well, you had lots of lots of private capitalism in Nazi Germany, and the German capitalists were extremely content with Hitler.

Or are you talking about workers "owning something"? Well, if workers "own" the factories they work in, then they are petty capitalists, competing with other workers who own other factories, just like in Yugoslavia.

In a socialist society, ownership is in the hands of the society as a whole, not particular individuals. If it is in the hands of particular individuals, then you have a form of capitalism not socialism.

Control is the action which realizes ownership.

No it isn't, as any stockholder can explain to you. The stockholders own companies, not the managers they employ. And as long as the stock prices are going up and the dividends are rolling in, no stockholder really gives a damn how the company is being run.

This is just more inconsistency. If you're for common control and production for use, you can't also be for the nationalization of industry and the rule of a bureaucratic oligarchy. One doesn't lead to the other, one enables communism to exist, and one leads right back to capitalism, as has been demonstrated by it's historical failure.

Yes indeed, Stalinism has been demonstrated by history to be a failure, and only here on Revleft or elsewhere on the Internet do you really have people who don't realize this.

This does not mean at all that the original ideas of the Russian Revolution were a failure. And a blood line was drawn between Stalin and Stalinism and Lenin and Leninism by the blood purges of the 1930s, where Stalin managed to kill off just about all the original revolutionaries of 1917 except for himself and his personal clique of old friends.

Where you picked up the idea that Trotskyists were in favor of the rule of a Stalinist-type bureaucracy I don't know.

So you think a financial system is inextricable from socialist production? I don't think so. I don't think capital is creative, I think it's labor that's creative.

A mystifying statement to me, that I suppose would be clearer except for the way Revleft works, knocking out previous comments in the hread unless you hunt for them.

Anyway, in the process of constructing a socialist system, which I think is likely to be pretty lengthy, financial accounting methods will be necessary. Once you have created a socialist system, money will be abolished, and you'll still need accounting, but that will be much more accounting of labor time and physical product than anything "financial."

If the revolution occurs, it's certain that some local leaders will emerge. But let's be clear about this; a guerrilla faction or a tiny organizational "vanguard" is not the working class. The class must act for itself to establish socialist production. Socialist production requires common ownership and production for use. Common ownership can only be realized through common control. Common control can only be enabled by a democratic process. Without socialist production, communism is impossible.

What parts of your response I subtracted, I think I've essentially responded to above.

If the working class isn't sufficiently conscious to act for itself, there will be no socialist production or communist society until it does.

We're having something of a dialouge of the deaf here, as I actually agree with the above statements, sort of anyway. A vanguard party of the workers has to be a mass party, hundreds of thousands, millions of members in a big country like the USSR or USA, to be really that, and has to be recognized by the rest of the workers, not just the backward ones but also all those workers who just plain aren't interested in politics or any issues outside their immediate family lives, or who think they have better things to do than running anything, as the vanguard.

Me, after the Revolution, if I live that long, the last thing I'd want to do is run anything. Let those who are good at it and have the talent for it do it, as long as you have a democratic process to replace them if need be.

Actual creation of a socialist society can only be done by the working class as a whole. Which is exactly why the USSR had so many economic problems.

Things only went well economically during periods when, for one reason or another, workers had a high opinion of the regime. When they felt dissatisfied, production would fall off, quality control would go to hell, etc. etc.

Unlike in a capitalist system, where workers have to work hard and well not to lose their jobs, to get promotions, etc. With zero unemployment and all sorts of rights on the job that workers in a capitalist country don't have, that just didn't work in the USSR, which is why so many bureaucrats finally decided capitalism is better and went first with Gorbachev then with Yeltsin.

In the Brezhnev years, you had the famous joke, "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us." The sign of a disintegrating bureaucratic pseudo-socialist system.

You take that attitude in America, if you don't have savings or stockholdings or something, you end up homeless.

-M.H.-

Dunk

29th February 2012, 03:01

A Marxist Historian

3rd March 2012, 00:29

M.H.,

I've been thinking for a bit on our discussion and how to break this dialogue of the deaf. I think I've come up with something succinct.

I think one of the important points you've been trying to make to me is that the point of the revolution isn't to simply change the relations of production, but it's to abolish class society, and with it all forms of bourgeois oppression.

Point taken. I understand and I fully acknowledge that liberation is more important than the mode of production, that a revolution without these effects isn't a revolution at all, and is ultimately pointless.

I think the primary point I am trying to leave you with, is that without a transformation in the relations of production, liberation cannot follow. That while there will probably be what could be described as a transitional state in the sense of a dictatorship of the proletariat, that there is no transitional period (transitional in the sense of relations of production which are distinct from both capitalist society and communist society) between capitalist society and communism. That there is no "socialist" or "nationalized" period in between, that the mode of production we must replace capitalism with is itself and can only be achieved by the transformation of the relations of production, from which liberation from bourgeois forms of oppression can follow.

As a side note, I've called this mode of production the socialist mode of production, I'm unsure whether this is appropriate or confusing for some people here.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion. Thanks.

Well, this may be a good note to leave this on, as in the last analysis I agree with you. Without a transformation in the relations of production, sooner or later "all the old crap will come back." Which is a quote from Marx by the way, though I forget where.

I just don't think that it can be done right away by waving a magic wand, the day after the Revolution.

And revolution is not some gradual process, it's an historic event, when one class overthrows another, that can be precisely dated, and in the aftermath of which the revolutionaries have to decide what to do next.

So I don't think there is some sort of special "transitional mode of production." Rather, you have a society leaving the capitalist mode and, hopefully at least, heading towards a socialist mode, betwixt and between, with elements of both at the same time.

I realize you find that highly unconvincing, but hopefully at least I know where you're coming from and vice versa.

-M.H.-