Stalinist question [Archive]

safeduck

10th February 2012, 18:03

daft punk

10th February 2012, 18:50

Stalin killed all the leaders of the Polish Communist Party and closed it down. He also killed most of the Poles living in the USSR.

Ocean Seal

10th February 2012, 18:58

daft punk

10th February 2012, 19:55

Mentioning historical facts about Stalin's relationship to the Polish is hardly trolling in a thread who's OP mentions both.

Genocide of Poles in the Soviet Union (1937–1938)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Genocide of Poles in the Soviet Union often referred to as, the Polish operation of the NKVD,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Poles_in_the_Soviet_Union_%281937%E2%8 0%931938%29#cite_note-thepolishreview-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Poles_in_the_Soviet_Union_%281937%E2%8 0%931938%29#cite_note-paulbogdanor-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Poles_in_the_Soviet_Union_%281937%E2%8 0%931938%29#cite_note-operation-2) was a coordinated action of the Soviet NKVD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD) and the Communist Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union) in 1937–1938 against the entire Polish minority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_minority_in_the_Soviet_Union) living in the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union), representing only 0.4 percent of Soviet citizens. It was the largest ethnic shooting and deportation action during the Great Terror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Terror),[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Poles_in_the_Soviet_Union_%281937%E2%8 0%931938%29#cite_note-bookhaven-3) done according to the NKVD Order № 00485 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD_Order_%E2%84%96_00485) entitled "On the liquidation of the Polish diversionist and espionage groups and POW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Military_Organisation) units."[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Poles_in_the_Soviet_Union_%281937%E2%8 0%931938%29#cite_note-Russian1-4)
The agents of the Soviet state-police gathered Polish-sounding names from local telephone books in order to speed up the process. In Leningrad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leningrad) alone, almost 7,000 citizens were rounded up. A vast majority of them were executed within 10 days of arrest.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Poles_in_the_Soviet_Union_%281937%E2%8 0%931938%29#cite_note-arlindo-correia-5) In the next fourteen months 143,810 people of Polish background were captured, of whom 139,885 were sentenced by extrajudical organs, and 111,091 murdered (nearly 80% of all victims).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Poles_in_the_Soviet_Union_%281937%E2%8 0%931938%29#cite_note-Gellately-Kiernan-6)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Poles_in_the_Soviet_Union_%281937%E2%8 0%931938%29

please read the link for more detail

Ocean Seal

11th February 2012, 02:31

GoddessCleoLover

11th February 2012, 02:36

Those who seek to rehabilitate Stalin are pissing in the wind IMO. With respect to the Poles, suffice to say that Stalin's policies both inflicted suffering on many Polish working people and that after the war he saw to it that Russian national interests came before those of the Polish people.

Zulu

11th February 2012, 03:23

Mentioning historical facts about Stalin's relationship to the Polish is hardly trolling.

It is, pal, it is. Because those "facts" are either completely invented by the imperialists and their lackeys, or presented as massive while in reality they were exceptional. You see, my grand mother happens to have had a Polish sounding name (Zakrzhevsky) and lived in Leningrad at the time with her parents, who were definitely from the bourgeois roots. The worst thing they ever suffered from Stalin was having to sell what little gold and silver they had to the state at some low price during the industrialization.

Zulu

11th February 2012, 03:34

he saw to it that Russian national Soviet & international communist movement's interests came before those of the Polish people bourgeoisie.
Fixed.

Polyphonic Foxes

11th February 2012, 03:41

Zulu

11th February 2012, 04:34

Reminds me of holocaust denial to be frank, It's a bit Godwiny but I think the comparison is obvious... "I have reletives who were there!" "this is forged!" "He wasn't that bad" "People greatly exagerate" "He did what he had to do".

We do not deny political repressions. We, in fact, approve of them in general, condemning only the "excesses". What we deny is the "ethnic cleansing" nature of the repressions in the USSR. The there were plenty of the repressed of the Russian ethnicity on the same grounds as those of minority ethnicities. Of course, there was much of anti-soviet activity based on nationalism, which also had to be repressed.

Every time you read/hear: "Woa-woa, Stalin repressed the Poles/Ukranians/Jews!" know: it's either a butthurt nationalist, or a lackey of imperialism trying to agitate butthurt nationalists, or both.

The same is actually true about the whole Holocaust denial thing. The Holocaust is actively capitalized on by the Zionists, and many people who don't deny it as a historical fact and don't even question the gas chambers, but rather say "Stop using the 60-year old story to promote your reactionary nationalist agenda" get labeled as if they deny the holocaust by the people whose political views are quite close to those of the Holocaust perpetrators, only the ethnicities differ.

Omsk

11th February 2012, 13:07

I will not even answer the wikipedia "proof" that has been linked here,and quoted.

I will try to answer this:

I am not opposing stalinism here. I am becoming more open minded towards Stalin. However I have a question for Stalinists to answer. What is the stalinist opinion towards Stalin and his reputation for taking goods away from other soviet/socialist states? I have a polish freind who's dad always tries to turn him away from communism by telling him about how shelves were always empty due to Stalin. Well, thats his fathers perspective of it anyway.

Well,personal accounts are always different,and there is too little detail mentioned here,but what i can say,is that Stalin,[USSR CPSU] certainly did not use the Eastern Bloc countries as some kind of colonies,in fact,the USSR helped the younger republics in their combat against hunger,in the rebuilding struggle and the formation of a sound and stable communist/socialist government.

As a result of dislocations from the war, particularly in those economies already at a low, partly feudal level, all possible assistance was needed to move the whole bloc of nations toward socialism. And this the USSR, although devastated by the war, provided as best it could, giving both economic aid and political assistance; within the bloc the better-off nations, such is Czechoslovakia, aided the weaker ones. In 1949 the whole bloc formed the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance (COMECON). That these efforts soon paid off is clear from the economic figures. For instance, Hungary, which had produced a yearly average of 600,000 tons of steel in the years 1936-38, produced 1,540,000 in 1953. It has, as we have noted, been contended that Stalin used these nations as virtual colonies to supply raw materials for the USSR. But although the USSR certainly needed all the help it could get, there is no evidence of a colonial-like exploitation. On the contrary, the evidence indicates that the USSR often gave material and professional aid that it could well have used itself. The relationship in essence was that of the proletarian alliance that Stalin had earlier described, a relationship between a socialist country and a group of countries trying to move toward socialism.
Cameron, Kenneth Neill. Stalin, Man of Contradiction. Toronto: NC Press, c1987, p. 100

It is the Soviet Union that has supplied the heavy machinery, modern equipment, raw materials, that have permitted the so rapid industrialization of the People's Democracies and the so rapid rise in the living standards of their peoples. It is the USSR that has sent them Soviet technicians, not to spy on them in the old Western tradition, not to take over their economies like the Nazi and American "experts," but to help them to train their own advanced technicians in the most modern techniques perfected in the Socialist Soviet Union.
Soviet long-term credits have been used by the People's Democracies to obtain from the Soviet Union metallurgical, chemical, machine-building materials. The USSR has sent them whole large-scale modern industrial installations--machine-tool factories, power plants, hydro-electric stations. With the help of Soviet equipment, the People's Democracies are now able, themselves, to produce heavy and complex industrial goods previously imported, to manufacture many machines for the first time in their history, including the machines that will lay the basis for the development of socialist agriculture.
Klugmann, James. From Trotsky to Tito. London: Lawrence & Wishart, 1951, p. 183

Another example: [Lithuania]

During pre-1917 Czarist rule, and its independence period before 1940, Lithuania was a relatively backward, largely agricultural economy. Since it became part of the Soviet Union its rate of industrial output has been the most rapid of all the Republics, increasing 54 times between 1940 and 1978, compared to 20 times for the Soviet Union average and 17 times for Russia proper.
Szymanski, Albert. Human Rights in the Soviet Union. London: Zed Books, 1984, p. 72

You should keep in mind that things were hard in Europe after WW2,not to mention the situation in the USSR,however,the industrial rebuilding and reconstruction [DDR,Yugoslavia,Bulgaria,Albania] had a huge positive impact,and the countries advanced greatly.

manic expression

11th February 2012, 13:23

I am not opposing stalinism here. I am becoming more open minded towards Stalin. However I have a question for Stalinists to answer. What is the stalinist opinion towards Stalin and his reputation for taking goods away from other soviet/socialist states? I have a polish freind who's dad always tries to turn him away from communism by telling him about how shelves were always empty due to Stalin. Well, thats his fathers perspective of it anyway.
If we're talking right after WWII, there weren't many shelves that were full in the majority of Europe. Poland got hit real hard by the war so this must have been even more enhanced of a problem. Still, the Soviet Union aided Polish workers as they rebuilt their country, with extensive building programs throughout, most notably Warsaw (being rebuilt to a major city from a pile of rubble, as well as the construction of a new skyscraper, one that still dominates Warsaw's skyline). Just as an example, the society that Stalin and Polish communists built was one in which any working-class family could enjoy a night out at the now-famous "milk bar" restaurants, where food was good and absurdly cheap...the institution proved so popular that the Polish state still subsidizes them today (coincidentally, I had lunch at one, and I have to say it was good).

If we're talking the very recent past...then your friend's father might have been thinking of the 80's and the years of martial law...in which case it has nothing to do with Stalin.

daft punk

11th February 2012, 13:55

Ah so I've followed your link and the paragraph which you posted was quite opportunistic. The study claiming that Stalin killed 100,000+ Poles was not present and any other mention of this textbook doesn't exist. I got links to Katyn and racism in the UIA but nothing with regards to Stalin. That wikipedia page stands alone in mention to this. There was another set of abstracts, which used no primary sources, nor did it have mentions of these killings. Also considering Poles were approximately 700,000-800,000 in the SU, it doesn't make him the murderer of the majority. Again before you say things, know that others can investigate your sources. If you want to believe that Stalin was the scourge of
the Earth that's fine, but back it up.

I did encourage people to read the link. There is no mention of a 'study'.

It says

"According to archives of the NKVD: 111,091 Poles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles) and people accused of ties with Poland, were sentenced to death, and 28,744 were sentenced to labor camps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_camp) ('dry guillotine' of slow death by exposure, malnutrition, and overwork);[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Poles_in_the_Soviet_Union_%281937%E2%8 0%931938%29#cite_note-grhs.org-10) 139,835 victims in total"

The source is

^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_Poles_in_the_Soviet_Union_%281937%E2%8 0%931938%29#cite_ref-memo.ru_11-0) OA Gorlanov. "A breakdown of the chronology and the punishment, NKVD Order № 00485 (Polish operation) in Google translate" (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://www.memo.ru/history/POLAcy/00485-1.htm&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.ca&usg=ALkJrhgLJ0y4jTz5qldwJAVKxBPTYXajVw). Retrieved April 26, 2011.

wiki cites a total of 22 sources for its info.

Are you saying it never happened or it was only 100,000 out of 7-800,000?

The NKVD records indicate 135,000.

wiki says

"
The following categories of people were arrested during the Polish operation of the NKVD, as described in Soviet documents:

"Active" members of the Polish minority in Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_minority_in_Soviet_Union) (practically all Poles).
All immigrants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigrant) from Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland).
Political refugees from Poland (mostly members of the Communist Party of Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Poland)).
Former and present members of the Polish Socialist Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Socialist_Party) and other non-communist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist) Polish political parties.
All prisoners of war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_of_war) from the Polish-Soviet war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Soviet_war) that remained in the Soviet Union.
Members of Polska Organizacja Wojskowa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Military_Organisation) listed in the special list (most of them were not in fact members of that organisation)."

So, pretty much all Poles arrested.
wiki:

"The Operation was only a peak in a murderous wave of terror against the Poles, spanning over a decade. As the Soviet statistics indicate, the number of ethnic Poles in the USSR dropped by 165,000 in that period. "It is estimated that Polish losses in the Ukrainian SSR were about 30%, while in the Belorussian SSR... the Polish minority was almost completely annihilated.""

Yes you are right there were 782,336 Poles in the USSR in 1926 in the census. 476,000 lived in the Ukraine where we are told 30% were killed.

However we are told that the Russian officials cooked the books and really the Polish population in the Ukraine was nearer to 700,000.

"Church and independent estimates show estimates of 650,000 to 700,000 Poles living in that area."

Two autonomous Polish districts were created, one in the Ukraine and one in Belarus. This was back in 1925. The Ukraine one was called

Marchlewszczyzna.

"Eventually, Marchlewszczyzna was disbanded in 1935 at the onset of the Great Purge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge) and most of the administration was executed. In the following years, many men were shot (some sources, such as Russian organization Memorial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_%28society%29) put the number of the murdered Poles at 111,091[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Autonomous_District#cite_note-cent-1)), women and children deported to Kazakhstan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_Soviet_Socialist_Republic) and other remote areas of the Soviet Union.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Autonomous_District#cite_note-kres-0) More than 50,000 Poles were executed in places like Kurapaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurapaty) or Vinnitsa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnitsa), many others were executed or starved in Kazakhstan. Dzierżyńszczyzna existed three years longer; it was disbanded in 1938. According to Polish sources, up to 70,000 Poles from Soviet Ukraine were forcibly resettled in Kazakhstan in late 1930s. Also, around 20 000 Poles were then deported from Soviet Belarus.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Autonomous_District#cite_note-cent-1)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Autonomous_District

You say there is nothing else on the net. Well there is loads. And it wasnt just Poles it was different ethnic minorities:

http://www.ukemonde.com/genocide/margolisholocaust.html

"Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust
By ERIC MARGOLIS -- Contributing Foreign Editor Toronto Sun
Five years ago, I wrote about the unknown Holocaust in Ukraine. I was shocked to receive a flood of mail from young Americans and Canadians of Ukrainian descent telling me that until they read my column, they knew nothing of the 1932-33 genocide in which Josef Stalin's Soviet regime murdered seven million Ukrainians and sent two million more to concentration camps.
How, I wondered, could such historical amnesia afflict so many? For Jews and Armenians, the genocides their people suffered are vivid, living memories that influence their daily lives. Yet today, on the 70th anniversary of the destruction of a quarter of Ukraine's population, this titanic crime has almost vanished into history's black hole.
So has the extermination of the Don Cossacks by the communists in the 1920s, the Volga Germans in 1941 and mass executions and deportations to concentration camps of Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians and Poles. At the end of World War II, Stalin's gulag held 5.5 million prisoners, 23% of them Ukrainians and 6% Baltic peoples.
Almost unknown is the genocide of two million of the USSR's Muslim peoples: Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Tajiks, Bashkirs and Kazaks. The Chechen independence fighters who today are branded as "terrorists" by the U.S. and Russia are the grandchildren of survivors of Soviet concentration camps."

and so on.

getting back to the Poles, there is plenty of stuff eg this

The Polish Operation: Stalin's first genocide of Poles 1937-1938.: An article from: Sarmatian Review

http://www.amazon.com/Polish-Operation-genocide-1937-1938-Sarmatian/dp/B005PSQC72
here are some more

Stalin and the Poles; an Indictment of the Soviet Leaders

http://www.amazon.com/Stalin-Poles-Indictment-Soviet-Leaders/dp/B000L9A5SC/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328968320&sr=1-2

Extermination; Killing Poles in Stalin's Empire

http://www.amazon.com/Extermination-Killing-Poles-Stalins-Empire/dp/B000EJQVLY/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328968320&sr=1-3

Ethnic Cleansing in the USSR, 1937-1949: (Contributions to the Study of World History) (http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-USSR-1937-1949-Contributions/dp/0313309213/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328968500&sr=1-17) by J. Otto Pohl (http://www.amazon.com/J.-Otto-Pohl/e/B001H6MWWA/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_17?qid=1328968500&sr=1-17) (May 30, 1999)

http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-USSR-1937-1949-Contributions/dp/0313309213/ref=sr_1_17?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328968500&sr=1-17

sorry about the big typing it's the way it pastes in.

manic expression

11th February 2012, 14:08

Five years ago, I wrote about the unknown Holocaust in Ukraine. I was shocked to receive a flood of mail from young Americans and Canadians of Ukrainian descent telling me that until they read my column, they knew nothing of the 1932-33 genocide in which Josef Stalin's Soviet regime murdered seven million Ukrainians and sent two million more to concentration camps.
:laugh: Yeah, Stalin set out in 1932 to kill Ukrainians...which is precisely why the Soviet Union was trying to get food to Ukrainian cities, full of Ukrainians.

Anyone who calls that famine a "genocide" is a drooling idiot or a virulent right-winger...probably both.

Fun fact: the reason Ukraine exists is because of the Soviet Union. Ukrainian "we happily joined the Nazis when they showed up" fascists and their mindless "leftist" followers can go jump in a lake.

daft punk

11th February 2012, 14:10

It is, pal, it is. Because those "facts" are either completely invented by the imperialists and their lackeys, or presented as massive while in reality they were exceptional. You see, my grand mother happens to have had a Polish sounding name (Zakrzhevsky) and lived in Leningrad at the time with her parents, who were definitely from the bourgeois roots. The worst thing they ever suffered from Stalin was having to sell what little gold and silver they had to the state at some low price during the industrialization.

Yes, the survival of your grandmother proves there was no holocaust. Never mind the film Katyn, the admission by the Russian government, the court case, the books, the memorials, the mass graves, the victims.

daft punk

11th February 2012, 14:13

:laugh: Yeah, Stalin set out in 1932 to kill Ukrainians...which is precisely why the Soviet Union was trying to get food to Ukrainian cities, full of Ukrainians.

Anyone who calls that famine a "genocide" is a drooling idiot or a virulent right-winger...probably both.

Fun fact: the reason Ukraine exists is because of the Soviet Union. Ukrainian "we happily joined the Nazis when they showed up" fascists and their mindless "leftist" followers can go jump in a lake.

Well, I'm not sure how much of the Ukrainian famine was deliberate, I haven't researched it.

However he did get rid of a lot of Poles and shut down the Polish Communist party.

And there was loads of movements and expulsions of populations as well as purges.

I would imagine the main cause of the famine was the way the forced collectivisation was done.

Omsk

11th February 2012, 14:25

Hello daft punk,again with your wiki quoting,and now this!?

By ERIC MARGOLIS -- Contributing Foreign Editor Toronto Sun

Five years ago, I wrote about the unknown Holocaust in Ukraine. I was shocked to receive a flood of mail from young Americans and Canadians of Ukrainian descent telling me that until they read my column, they knew nothing of the 1932-33 genocide in which Josef Stalin's Soviet regime murdered seven million Ukrainians and sent two million more to concentration camps.
How, I wondered, could such historical amnesia afflict so many? For Jews and Armenians, the genocides their people suffered are vivid, living memories that influence their daily lives. Yet today, on the 70th anniversary of the destruction of a quarter of Ukraine's population, this titanic crime has almost vanished into history's black hole.
So has the extermination of the Don Cossacks by the communists in the 1920s, the Volga Germans in 1941 and mass executions and deportations to concentration camps of Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians and Poles. At the end of World War II, Stalin's gulag held 5.5 million prisoners, 23% of them Ukrainians and 6% Baltic peoples.
Almost unknown is the genocide of two million of the USSR's Muslim peoples: Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, Tajiks, Bashkirs and Kazaks. The Chechen independence fighters who today are branded as "terrorists" by the U.S. and Russia are the grandchildren of survivors of Soviet concentration camps."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Margolis

Anti communist conservative,"supporter of capitalism".He fought in the Vietnam war on te side of the US imperialists?

I think this really went too far and i wont contunue with this "debate".

Zulu

11th February 2012, 14:47

By ERIC MARGOLIS
How, I wondered, could such historical amnesia afflict so many?

That's because there was no such thing as "Ukranian holocaust".

So has the extermination of the Don Cossacks by the communists in the 1920s

Lol, daft punk, do you realize this part goes against your Holy Trotsky too?

23% of them Ukrainians and 6% Baltic peoples.

That's not much higher than the general demographics percentage of these nationalities in the Soviet Union.

Almost unknown is the genocide of two million of the USSR's Muslim peoples: Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, ... survivors of Soviet concentration camps
Lolwut? They were deported, but very few died in the process their populations even slightly grew by the time they were allowed to return back under Khrushchev. Compare that to the massive policy and the effects of the Indian reservations in the US, by the way.

A long list of bourgeois anti-soviet propaganda
daft punk, do you realize that no matter how long a list of bourgeois anti-Soviet propaganda you may comprise, it will be of no more value than the few original sources that they copypaste all over, namely Goebbels' propaganda, Khrushchev's libel, Solzhenitsyn's guess job and such.

Zulu

11th February 2012, 14:57

Yes, the survival of your grandmother

My grand mother didn't have to survive anything exept the siege of Leningrad by the Nazis. Despite her Polish sounding name and even petty bourgeois origins, not breaking the law guaranteed her from criminal prosecution. Imagine that.

Never mind the film Katyn,
Made by the Polish nationalist bourgeoisie.

the admission by the Russian government,

Which is no less anti-communist than the Polish nationalist bourgeoisie,

the court case, the books, the memorials, the mass graves, the victims.
And Goebbels' propaganda, you forgot to mention that one.

daft punk

11th February 2012, 15:04

er, ok I shouldnt have posted that bit from the Toronto Sun, it was a bit hasty, should have checked it better.

The rest of it stands though

In fact what's interesting is why Stalin had it in for all these ethnic minorities, not if.

You two really wanna move on, at least look into it all, the whole Stalin subject I mean. It's like some mental block. You cant even face the basic facts like this purge of Poles. It's not 'bourgeois propaganda'. The bourgeois go along with Stalin's lies for the most part, there was no great outcry from the west over the purges at the time. It only came out gradually over the next few decades.

Omsk

11th February 2012, 15:18

The rest of it stands though

The rest of "it" is wikipedia,and some links to amazon,and i dont think you can expect me to buy 4 books/articles.

You two really wanna move on

And you should answer some points that were raised,even though you mentioned the Decossackization and proved that you actually need to "look into it all" before posting anything that you in with your Trotskyists logic can link back to Stalin.

The bourgeois go along with Stalin's lies for the most part, there was no great outcry from the west over the purges at the time. It only came out gradually over the next few decades.

Gradually over the next few decades?

It started during the 60' and got more and more strenght all the way up to the 90' when it reached a maximum.[With right-wingers,conservatives,nationalists spewing all kind of things on the USSR]

The Young Pioneer

11th February 2012, 15:43

KrasnayaRossiya

11th February 2012, 15:48

Lol i know many guys who Love Stalin because he "kicked out the Jews and banned homosexuality".:laugh:

KrasnayaRossiya

11th February 2012, 15:52

BTW Chechens in WW2=nazi collaboraters.

Ocean Seal

11th February 2012, 19:48

Well Daft Punk what you've offered me is a link to the Von Mises site and the Victims of Communism foundation. Now is there any reason why I wouldn't trust that?

Also the mention of the Ukrainian genocide is not only false, but its also incredibly disrespectful to all of the Soviet peoples who starved because of the siege of socialism. Every nation lost some of its countrymen. For the Ukrainians to monopolize that and say that the evil Stalin tried to starve them is not only to make a false attack on socialism, but it is also spitting on the struggles of the Soviet Union.

It is as ridiculous as the claim that Lenin starved 4 million peasants.

daft punk

11th February 2012, 19:55

Zulu

12th February 2012, 02:11

In fact what's interesting is why Stalin had it in for all these ethnic minorities, not if.
It can't be interesting "why" Stalin "had it in for all minorities", because he didn't.

The bourgeois go along with Stalin's lies for the most part, there was no great outcry from the west over the purges at the time. It only came out gradually over the next few decades.
No, the bourgeoisie always tried to tar Stalin and the Soviet Union. See where the "No man - no problem" mis-quote comes from:

http://projects.asds.org/ClassProjects/HistoryDay/PeterK08/Stalin_files/time-stalin.jpg

But there was no such a great outcry as in the 1980s and later, because it was impossible to sell lies wholesale at the time, when them being too obvious would have made them useless. But as the people's memories dim and mix up (even a few years is enough) it gets increasingly easy to manipulate them.

And frankly, during the Great Depression conditions in rest of the world were not much better, it's just that, unlike in the USSR, the working class bore the main brunt of the crises, not the "educated class" of the bourgeoisie, so that left us with few written accounts and memoirs of the horrors of the "American Gulag", "Indian Holodomor" and "Brazilian Holocaust".

GoddessCleoLover

12th February 2012, 02:16

Did anyone notice that our Russian comrade pointed out that some of Stalin's residual popularity comes from reactionaries who approved of his policies toward Jews and gay people? Food for thought.

Zulu

12th February 2012, 02:47

Zulu, while I agreed with your initial sentiment about nationalism causing people to harp on things like the Holocaust and Stalin, you're mistaken on at least one thing. I'm not well versed in Polish history but I happen to know quite a bit about the history of Chechnya.

At least 200,000 Chechens perished [Even the NKVD archives cite more than that!] during and after the deportations - They were sent on cattle trucks similar to Hitler's - and conditions in their new Kazakhstan "home" were terrible; starvation and disease were rampant. When they were allowed to return, sure their numbers increased! But their human rights were still absent. Russia has a loooong history of attacking Chechnya. There are countless stories of World War II decorated Russian heroes from Chechnya who, upon returning from war triumphant, found their homes ransacked, empty, and their families dead or deported. But I guess you'll believe what you want to, regardless.

Well, I don't doubt all these facts, except the number of perished. If you got a link to the "NKVD archives" citation, pleas provide it. The data from the official census (1) (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Всесоюзная_перепись_населения_1939_года) of 1939 and 1959 suggest that there could not be anything even close to "200,000 perished". Moreover, the general dynamic of the Chechen and Ingush people is not terribly different from the ethnicities, for instance, of the neigbouring republic of Dagestan, that were not deported. I also beg to remind about the similar policy by the United States' capitalists of massively displacing the indigenous populations and putting them in reservations, just because white farmers wanted more land, which took a real toll on ALL of the Indian ethnic groups, while Stalin's policy was aimed at exactly three ethnicities, that had massively collaborated with the Nazis. And I also repeat, that those who distinguished themselves during the WW2 could request exemption from the deportation and that their relatives be returned if they had already been deported (not all of them opted for it though).

As for Russia's colonization of the Caucasus (and the Central Asia for that matter), it was no better and no worse than any other colonization by a capitalist power. The October Revolution and Lenin's policy of extensive state support for the previously oppressed nationalities gave them a chance to develop culturally at an unprecedented pace. But rampant nationalism and open anti-Soviet activity could not be tolerated, that much seems pretty clear.

Zulu

12th February 2012, 03:11

Did anyone notice that our Russian comrade pointed out that some of Stalin's residual popularity comes from reactionaries who approved of his policies toward Jews and gay people? Food for thought.
There was no "policy toward Jews", and homosexuality wasn't exactly tolerated anywhere in the world back then. And although Soviet legislation of the time recognized male homosexual acts as a crime, in reality it was usually not actively. Those who were jailed for pederasty usually say themselves that their cases were political in nature and the article was used in lieu of or in addition to the article on anti-soviet activity.

In general, Stalin's popularity among nationalists only tells us of what kind of people material he had to rule over, although the problem of the great Russian chauvinism really resurged only in Brezhnev's time and especially during the Perestroyka, partially as a reaction of the poorly educated people to the abolition of the socialist policy and practice (Darn revisionism!!). Stalin did salute the Russian people specifically with his Victory toast, but in retrospect that seems to have done no good, seeing how without the Georgian communist at the helm, the Russians degraded back to the point at which Marxism-Leninism overtook them in 1917.

Omsk

12th February 2012, 12:25

Stalin did salute the Russian people specifically with his Victory toast, but in retrospect that seems to have done no good, seeing how without the Georgian communist at the helm, the Russians degraded back to the point at which Marxism-Leninism overtook them in 1917.

Here is the victory speech:

COMRADES! FELLOW COUNTRYMEN AND COUNTRYWOMEN! The great day of victory over Germany has arrived. Fascist Germany, forced to her knees by the Red Army and the troops of our Allies, has admitted defeat and has announced her unconditional surrender.
On May 7 a preliminary act of surrender was signed in Rheims. On May 8, in Berlin, representatives of the German High Command, in the presence of representatives of the Supreme Command of the Allied troops and of the Supreme Command of the Soviet troops, signed the final act of surrender, which came into effect at 24 hours on May 8.
Knowing the wolfish habits of the German rulers who regard treaties and agreements as scraps of paper, we have no grounds for accepting their word. However, this morning, the German troops, in conformity with the act of surrender, began en masse to lay down their arms and surrender to our troops. This is not a scrap of paper. It is the actual capitulation of the armed forces of Germany. True, one group of German troops in the region of Czechoslovakia still refuses to surrender, but I hope the Red Army will succeed in bringing it to its senses. We now have full grounds for saying that the historic day of the final defeat of Germany, the day of our people's great victory over German imperialism, has arrived.
The great sacrifices we have made for the freedom and independence of our country, the incalculable privation and suffering our people have endured during the war, our intense labours in the rear and at the front, laid at the altar of our motherland, have not been in vain; they have been crowned by complete victory over the enemy. The age-long struggle of the Slavonic peoples for their existence and independence has ended in victory over the German aggressors and German tyranny.
Henceforth, the great banner of the freedom of the peoples and peace between the peoples will fly over Europe.
Three years ago Hitler publicly stated that his task included the dismemberment of the Soviet Union and the severance from it of the Caucasus, the Ukraine, Byelorussia, the Baltic and other regions. He definitely said: "We shall destroy Russia so that she shall never be able to rise again." This was three years ago. But Hitler's insane ideas were fated to remain unrealized — the course of the war scattered them to the winds like dust. Actually, the very opposite of what the Hitlerites dreamed of in their delirium occurred. Germany is utterly defeated. The German troops are surrendering. The Soviet Union is triumphant, although it has no intention of either dismembering or destroying Germany.
Comrades! Our Great Patriotic War has terminated in our complete victory. The period of war in Europe has closed. A period of peaceful development has been ushered in.
Congratulations on our victory, my dear fellow countrymen and countrywomen!
Glory to our heroic Red Army, which upheld the independence of our country and achieved victory over the enemy!
Glory to our great people, the victor people!
Eternal glory to the heroes who fell fighting the enemy and who gave their lives for the freedom and happiness of our people!

As you can see,the is no "Great Russian nationalism",in fact,Russia was mentioned a few times,the emphasis is on the "Soviet people" "My fellow countrymen and countrywomen" - People of the CCCP.

Stalin,in his orders of the day,always mentioned that the Soviet people must remain united,and strong in their unified struggle against the Nazi invader,it is a fact that the most of the casualties were Russian,but in those days,every man in the USSR was a - Soviet citizen,and soldiers who died in the struggle for freedom,were always named : "Soviet soldiers" Or "Red Army" soldiers.

However,after the fall of the USSR,various nationalists used the image of Stalin and his role in WW2 simply to attract people,and that was mere populism,there were many WW2 veterans,and they wanted their support,so the image of Stalin,in today's Russia,is used by political groups [Such as the KPRF] to attract older generations.

The Young Pioneer

12th February 2012, 13:05

Well, I don't doubt all these facts, except the number of perished. If you got a link to the "NKVD archives" citation, pleas provide it. The data from the official census (1) (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Всесоюзная_перепись_населения_1939_года) of 1939 and 1959 suggest that there could not be anything even close to "200,000 perished". Moreover, the general dynamic of the Chechen and Ingush people is not terribly different from the ethnicities, for instance, of the neigbouring republic of Dagestan, that were not deported.

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#ww2ussr

I also beg to remind about the similar policy by the United States' capitalists of massively displacing the indigenous populations and putting them in reservations, just because white farmers wanted more land, which took a real toll on ALL of the Indian ethnic groups, while Stalin's policy was aimed at exactly three ethnicities, that had massively collaborated with the Nazis. And I also repeat, that those who distinguished themselves during the WW2 could request exemption from the deportation and that their relatives be returned if they had already been deported (not all of them opted for it though).

Oh good, we're defending deportation of certain ethnicities by pointing the finger at America. I don't give two fucks about how awful America was. We're talking about Stalin's policies.

As for Russia's colonization of the Caucasus (and the Central Asia for that matter), it was no better and no worse than any other colonization by a capitalist power. The October Revolution and Lenin's policy of extensive state support for the previously oppressed nationalities gave them a chance to develop culturally at an unprecedented pace. But rampant nationalism and open anti-Soviet activity could not be tolerated, that much seems pretty clear.

The fact remains that people in this region were hurt under both the Empire and the USSR. It's a common theme to Russia, not just the Tsars or Stalin (not to let Stalin off easily by saying so).

Where are you Stalinophiles getting this bs about Chechens collaborating with Nazis? As I said, I've studied the region for a long time and, while I have heard this claim before, never been provided any proof of it.

Omsk

12th February 2012, 13:09

Where are you Stalinophiles getting this bs about Chechens collaborating with Nazis? As I said, I've studied the region for a long time and, while I have heard this claim before, never been provided any proof of it.

For someone who "studied the region for a long time" you certainly know little about the entire deal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ost_battalion (Read it for a start)

The Chechen collaboration with the Nazis is a well known fact.

You have the account of Molotov mentioning the Nazi helpers:

Also were present,the account of the refusal of some groups to help the Red Army.

Only in the Chechen area was the local population reluctant to cooperate with the Red Army.
Sudoplatov, Pavel. Special Tasks. Boston: Little, Brown, c1993, p. 149

Ocean Seal

12th February 2012, 19:56

what link to von mises and victims of communism?

If by the latter you mean the Toronto article I already retracted that essentially.

the rest is all wiki and books on Amazon.

Do you want photos of the memorials?
I meant that I actually checked your sources back to where they lead. And there were dead ends on the Von Mises site and the Victims of Communism site. And also how can you spout the Holodomor lies and still call yourself a dignified lefitst.

Have you ever thought that perhaps it was an opportunistic nationalist lie? Honestly half the crap you post ends up leading to anti-communist propaganda.

daft punk

12th February 2012, 20:06

I meant that I actually checked your sources back to where they lead. And there were dead ends on the Von Mises site and the Victims of Communism site. And also how can you spout the Holodomor lies and still call yourself a dignified lefitst.

Have you ever thought that perhaps it was an opportunistic nationalist lie? Honestly half the crap you post ends up leading to anti-communist propaganda.
one link, I retracted, shoulda checked it more carefully, not half my posts. I do not post about holmodor because I havent researched it. My guess is it was mainly due to forced collectivisation. Food production dropped throughout Russia during collectivisation.

Zulu

12th February 2012, 20:15

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#ww2ussr

Oh, so it's a British historian, whose specialty is mainly the III Reich, making a brief foray into the Eastern Front affairs, pulls a number of "perished" at half the Chechen population of that time. Mysteriously, just a few years later the population is back to it's pre-war levels. I see.

Oh good, we're defending deportation of certain ethnicities by pointing the finger at America. I don't give two fucks about how awful America was. We're talking about Stalin's policies.
OK.

The fact remains that people in this region were hurt under both the Empire and the USSR. It's a common theme to Russia, not just the Tsars or Stalin (not to let Stalin off easily by saying so).
Stalin kind of solved that problem, with minimal damage to the people of the region. Then Khrushchev grabbed power and un-solved it.

Where are you Stalinophiles getting this bs about Chechens collaborating with Nazis? As I said, I've studied the region for a long time and, while I have heard this claim before, never been provided any proof of it.
Well, for a person claiming that you've spent some time studying this matter, you should have known, that it was the official premise given in the Soviet government's decree on the liquidation of the Chechen-Ingush autonomous republic and the deportation. Prior to that there was an investigation led by the NKVD officer named Kobulov, who in his report to Beria gave a detailed account of the anti-Soviet activities in the republic during the war. There are also Beria's cables to Stalin regarding the deportation which provide the total number of the deported as well as some interesting additional statistic on the confiscated firearms and such.

I must correct myself though, the Balkar people were also deported in the same campaign, so that makes the total of four minority nationalities in the Soviet Union deported en masse during the WW2.

.

Zulu

12th February 2012, 20:24

Here is the victory speech:

...

I was actually referring to this:
http://marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1945/05/24.htm

It must be said though, that he occasionally praised (and even flattered) some other nationalities, such as the Tadjiks, although that speech is missing from his collected works along with all others from 1940 to the first half of 1941.

However,after the fall of the USSR,various nationalists used the image of Stalin and his role in WW2 simply to attract people,and that was mere populism,there were many WW2 veterans,and they wanted their support,so the image of Stalin,in today's Russia,is used by political groups [Such as the KPRF] to attract older generations.

Yeah, AFAIK, there are some real crazy types who think he was some kind of a secret agent for the Russian Orthodox Church on a mission to infiltrate the Bolshevik party and bring it down from within... Don't tell that to daft punk!