Reality, illusions, truths and lies

[Monty Cantsin]

There are many questions that need to be asked. Why have most people become apathetic to reality? And what can we do about this can anything be done?

In this new age, information is readily available with mass media including World Wide Web, television, books, radio, and newspaper. But in this new age we find ourselves shying away from information. It hasn’t made us thirst for knowledge more so instead we cling to the opium of the masses television a contemporary of religion.

I have heard and read many people’s perceptions of the state of our society. The vast mass of people sound like they haven’t read anything of the topics at hand instead are repeating comments and general statements from TV. As a sweeping statement People are hypocritical and bias. For example people don’t know the difference between Stalinism and communism. But they see capitalism as nothing like social Darwinism though Stalinism is and extreme of communism and that is the same for social Darwinism being an extreme of capitalism. Extremes are a worry when it comes to any ideologies. Herbert Spencer is the man responsible for social Darwinism which combines Darwin’s theory of “evolution” and capitalism which nurtures the bad elements of human nature (if there is such a thing) such as self interest and racism. Racism with is the ostracism and discrimination of the different which show that we shy away from information and truth. And self interest breeds greed, corruption and exploitation of others. This kind of exploitation of others has been around from the start of time. For example the Spartans a Dorian race from Greece then known as Hellas. through out the golden age of Hellas the Spartans were known for there military might were there warriors fought for Sparta from the age of 7 to they were 60. Which meant the men of Sparta could not work on the farms themselves; instead they enslaved many people which were called helots. These helots were oppressed for generations but revolted for their masters. This goes to show that vices of the elite like greed, corruption, self interests can never oppress the spirit of the people and in the words of José Marti “Like stones rolling down hills, fair ideas reach their objectives despite all obstacles and barriers. It may be possible to speed or hinder them, but impossible to stop them”.

The current direction of our society is worrying with the evasion of the truth and the monopoly of trans-national corporations. Trans-national corporations (TNC) are the new Spartans of our time elitist that oppress the people. As José Marti once said “It is necessary to make virtue fashionable.” This is quite the opposite of which we have now. Elitist with Vested interests have no sense of humanity without underlying motives.


so i put it to you to anwser these questions Why have most people become apathetic to reality?, can anything be done? and if so how?

what are the Reality, illusions, truths and lies of our society?

[fallenmonk]

none of us can know reality, as Kant said, due to our different experiences and biases. your reality is different than mine, it is perspective. apathy for reality is apathy towards one's own existence. furthermore, that apathy is precisely the aim of the elite, make the individual feel worthless while selling the nationalist agenda of "greater glory" thru community, exemplified by the uber-patriots of these recent times. i'm afraid i don't have a remedy other than to live my own life uncompromisingly and with vigor.


as for illusion, it is all around us. the greatest of which is man's self elevation, the idea that we are somehow exempt from natural law, that the universe was created for us and us alone. while most rational people believe in natural selection they fail to recognize our own fate, that of a stepping stone to something greater. thus was born the "sanctity of human life" myth, and war has been waged upon our common mother ever since. again we've promoted community, our human community, above everything else. after all there's safety in numbers, and that safety to some is worth more than freedom, individuality, truth, justice, or virtue. i've come to believe that western culture itself is an illusion, built upon the weakness and cowardice of manipulative sheperds and their bleating sheep.


damn, i've depressed myself. i'll stop my ranting here, except to say that truth is freedom, freedom is salvation.

[Rasta Sapian]

your ideals seem a little bit objective. I feel a broad awakening happening, a wave of inspiration and positive change!

Aristotle's definition for a slave "A human tool"

that is the past, this is the present "reality" wake up and swim! :)

peace yall

[Monty Cantsin]

your ideals seem a little bit objective

what's wrong with being objective do you mean based on fact and not subjective or trying to Achieve something ?

[RedAnarchist]

Reality is nothing more than clay in your hands, which you can mould into a shape, any shape as long as its a sphere.

[The Children of the Revolution]

An interesting topic for discussion; well posted.

I like the link to Sparta too. I have studied the Spartans excessively and found their History to be fascinating. Yes, they oppressed the Hellots - but they almost got away with it. The Hellots revolted many times; each time they were crushed by the discipline and strength of the Spartans. It was external influences that enabled the hellots to successfully rebel, and the degeneration of Spartan society that prevented any drastic response.

Turning now to the degeneration of our own society, I find Capitalism is once more to blame. If we look at 19th or early 20th century Europe, we find the masses to be both politically active and politically aware. The mass strikes in Petrograd for example, or the popular organisation of workers "Soviets". Whereas nowadays we have seen few strikes worth mentioning in recent years - the Firemens strike the notable exception. And voter turnout at elections is shockingly low. Why? Because the public of today have no cause to fight for.

Because Capitalism has now "gone global", and because the majority of exploitation exists in the Developing World, the average Westerner is actually quite well off. Relatively speaking. They will usually own a car, have a roof over their heads, and eat well. So they have no political axe to grind. And with the huge development in consumerism and materialism, they would rather be out purchasing a new DVD player than protesting. This increasing complacency and affluence of the populace goes hand in hand with decreasing interest in politics and wider education.

Hence the increasing centralisation and "elective-policies" of political parties. And the media reliance on sensationalism. All evidence of an "i'm alright jack" attitude amongst the wider public. Those who "aren't alright" are now in the minority - therefore cannot expect popular support for political action. Very worrying.

This does not mean Capitalism is working. It has succeeded, to a large extent, in the West. But at the cost of the coffee picker in Latin America, and the sweatshop employee in Asia. Marxism must spread worldwide. Either that or we need some kind of economic disaster to wake up the West... Capitalist society is to blame, and must be destroyed.

[DEPAVER]

"In social affairs, I'm an optimist. I really do believe that our military- industrial civilization will soon collapse."- Ed Abbey

[New Tolerance]

Do you guys actually care about reality or do you guys just care about socialism?

For example if it is somehow proven that captialism in reality is better than socialism, would anyone here actually accept it?

Or would you give the middle finger to the proof and continue to believe in socialism?

[DEPAVER]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 8 2003, 10:47 PM
Do you guys actually care about reality or do you guys just care about socialism?

For example if it is somehow proven that captialism in reality is better than socialism, would anyone here actually accept it?

Or would you give the middle finger to the proof and continue to believe in socialism?
I'm not that concerned with either!

I believe I know what reality is and have no intention of wasting my time discussing it. As for capitalism and socialism, both have failings; however, capitalism is the current system that is causing so much destruction around the planet.

My current thinking is that we can't just thow capitalism out with the bath water. I think we need a combination of socialism and capitalism and see how things evolve. In other words, lets grow more cooperatives and employee owned organizations along side the current organizations and see what comes to fore.

I refuse to believe there is anything wrong with the capitalism of the simple shop keeper or tradesman. If I'm a baker that owns a small bakery, all I'm concerned about is baking good bread and cookies and making a fair enough profit to meet my needs, how is that so bad?

This simple of capitalism fails when the baker starts to expand, becomes obsessed with growth and places profits before people. When he or she attempts to drive someone else out of business, etc.

The answer lies in communities making democratic decisions about how they will conduct their economic affairs. In other words, we get together and decide that we will have a bakery, a grocer, a community garden and a bike shop, and in our village or town all workers will have a say in wages, hours, etc.

Check out the Bruderhof Communities. Try and ignore the religious element and consider only the economic organization and how it works. It's sort of a combo system that seems to work well.

[New Tolerance]

I'm not that concerned with either!

?

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 01:05 AM
I refuse to believe there is anything wrong with the capitalism of the simple shop keeper or tradesman. If I'm a baker that owns a small bakery, all I'm concerned about is baking good bread and cookies and making a fair enough profit to meet my needs, how is that so bad?

This simple of capitalism fails when the baker starts to expand, becomes obsessed with growth and places profits before people. When he or she attempts to drive someone else out of business, etc.
The problem here is the expansion. If you own a company with the size like Coke or McDonalds have you can't just leave with all the money, you must make it to keep getting profits and expanding, because otherwise the capitalist economy falls (no competition), the company can be beaten by the competition, it can go to bankrupt and the workers can become unemployed. So, this prooves that greed isn't a natural thing, because once the baker gets stuck into his big bakery, he cant just get out it his responsibilities. The greed capitalism is based on is imposed by those who created the system.

But back to the point, in the capitalist society people is surrounded by promises of money, success, sex, and material things. In fact why do you think capitalism has not many resistance? It isnt because the USSR dissapeared, it is because people was tempted with the promise of becoming rich and happy.

And the truth is never known, reality is modified and it changes according to each person. They have lied to us, they lied to us since we were little children, first with things like Santa claus, then with different things to hide how we are born, then with giving us toy guns and cars as gifts and little soldiers, then with promises of having a lot of sweets and toys if we behaved well (kinda like if our parents were fascist dictators threating us), then telling us to pass our exams to have things, then it was time for religions, then if you worked hard you could become rich, and during all this time we lost contact with the real world and became stupid machines controlling by a few yanqui bastards, and without having access to information. An example: if someone spends an hour a this forum he is called a "nerd". That means he is out of society and he's not a winner. That means no happiness, no success, no access to being who the system promised us and what everyone should become. So be careful because we live in an imaginary world, the media and the government tell us lies and so do our parents, so we live out of the reality.

[Monty Cantsin]

C.o.t.r. has really got what I was getting at. About how people have there comforts zones now and have become uncaring towards the big picture and other people. This is coursed by the wealthy or ruling class. Providing people with just enough so they consume unnecessary products or wants, but not enough wealth to become over comfortable and rise to the leave of ruling class. so Just wealth enough to support the upper class and not enough to become idle or ruling themselves. So the task is how to wake people up to the reality of what is happening inside there own countries because it’s not just happening in the 3rd world its every where.

[New Tolerance]

The significance is not that the truth will never be known, but that the truth is actually not all important. The general impression people get is that if you know the truth then somehow you can change reality, when this is not the case.

Truth is a human concept, humans are imprefect, the idea of truth is imperfect. The truth is not that relevent.

Just a thought.

[The Children of the Revolution]

So the task is how to wake people up to the reality of what is happening inside there own countries because it’s not just happening in the 3rd world its every where.


This is true - although inequality is more obvious abroad, (many do not eat enough, or have no clean water) there is inequality at home too. But we don't realise it as much. Unfortunately, propaganda is likely to be ineffective in the West, especially at the moment. (What with the international 'War on Terror')

This is why I believe we must concentrate our efforts abroad. The West will soon follow...

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 9 2003, 03:41 PM


This is why I believe we must concentrate our efforts abroad. The West will soon follow...
but Marx wrote his works believeing the revolution would be in developed countries, he had England, France, Germany and other’s like that in mind

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 9 2003, 03:38 AM
The significance is not that the truth will never be known, but that the truth is actually not all important. The general impression people get is that if you know the truth then somehow you can change reality, when this is not the case.

Truth is a human concept, humans are imprefect, the idea of truth is imperfect. The truth is not that relevent.

Just a thought.

Well I guess you’re right on that one truth would be different for every person depending on the slant you wish to put on it. But then things can be more truthful then others. Because of this I believe it is very heard to find the most correct truth this is why you balance your sources, don’t just read leftist books but rightist books as well.

[New Tolerance]

Well, I was trying to stress that so far as I have seen, the only time in reality when "truth" is actually used, it is used to justify one person's attack on someone else's ideology.

So prehaps the significance of truth for humans is that it is just a tool for trying to change other people's minds (or keeping your own mind from changing). (It's just a tool) If you had no one to argue with, you wouldn't care about truth.

*just trying to link up pscyology with this topic

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 10 2003, 09:51 PM
Well, I was trying to stress that so far as I have seen, the only time in reality when "truth" is actually used, it is used to justify one person's attack on someone else's ideology.

So prehaps the significance of truth for humans is that it is just a tool for trying to change other people's minds (or keeping your own mind from changing). (It's just a tool) If you had no one to argue with, you wouldn't care about truth.

*just trying to link up pscyology with this topic
People often wonder about what lies beyond there realm of reality example is god real, are there aliens so on. So people would still care about those truths within themselves, critical thinking is a collum of our Ontology, of mine at least.

[New Tolerance]

Well, actually I'm kind of trying to get at something else.

e, nevermind. (forget about it, forget about it...)

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by New [email protected] 11 2003, 03:43 AM
Well, actually I'm kind of trying to get at something else.

e, nevermind. (forget about it, forget about it...)
nar im not going to forget tell me what you mean.

[The Feral Underclass]

Fallen Monk


none of us can know reality, as Kant said, due to our different experiences and biases. your reality is different than mine, it is perspective.

Kant was wrong. Just because you interpret reality in a different way does not make your way reality. Reality exists. it is made from facts. Sometimes however, people interpret it in the wrong way. ie racism, religion, but just because someone thinks this, does no make it right. They are subjective views concluded from an objective reality.

Children of the Revolution

I agree with everything you say. I would just like to add on, that capitalism creates alienation within human beings. This means that although people are angry about things that happen in the world, they feel disempowered to actually change anything. this results in low voter turn out. Faith in the parlimentary system has dwindled to nothing as people realise that no matter who they vote for everything will remain the same. People believe that reality can not be changed. hence the famous sentence "It's a nice idea but it will never change." People know what they want, they are just trapped in reality.

If you think about it, we are simply born into a world where rules of how to live are pretty much forced onto us. We are not taught to criticise just accept reality. It is not suprising that the ruling class are allowed to perpetrate their existance. Everyone believes their existance is justified.

New Tolerance


Do you guys actually care about reality or do you guys just care about socialism?

For example if it is somehow proven that captialism in reality is better than socialism, would anyone here actually accept it?

Or would you give the middle finger to the proof and continue to believe in socialism?

How can capitalism be proven to be the better reality. Look at what it has done to the earth. It has destoyed it, created wars, mass famine, it denies people basic human rights. It exploits and alienates humans. Any reality is better than capitalism. The only way capitalism could redeem itself and actually create a situation where none of these things happened anymore it would have to dismantle itself, and I dont think the ruling class are prepared to allow that to happen.

[peaccenicked]

First of all, allow me to quote from Capital
“The categories of bourgeois economy consist of such like forms. They are forms of thought expressing with social validity the conditions and relations of a definite, historically determined mode of production, viz., the production of commodities. The whole mystery of commodities, all the magic and necromancy that surrounds the products of labour as long as they take the form of commodities, vanishes therefore, so soon as we come to other forms of production.” [Marx, Chapter 1]

Perhaps Euripidies, what you are feeling, indeed what is hurting and believe me it hurts me also, is just the empirical reality of present day imperialism.
The necromancy, the actual death of thought. When will it vanish?
Here we have it, when it comes to another form of production.

The question is when.
History makes people and people make history.

The hope in the best of hearts is expressed as such:One wrong can move a people and a wronged people can move the world.
We have seen that in South Africa, we want that for Palestine.

Yet it is not enough, the world has yet to become the peoples oyster.
It is hard to be clairvoyant but I will leave with you the thoughts, I expressed earlier to another comrade.

"Marx once wrote to the effect that our first attempts at socialism would be failures even futile but from these and those subsequent we would learn.
One wonders how many batterings we can take. However I predict that someday when we have had basically enough it all, uneven development will become combined development internationally, and that will unleash the most fearsome workers movement ever''
RSVP

[New Tolerance]

How can capitalism be proven to be the better reality. Look at what it has done to the earth. It has destoyed it, created wars, mass famine, it denies people basic human rights. It exploits and alienates humans. Any reality is better than capitalism. The only way capitalism could redeem itself and actually create a situation where none of these things happened anymore it would have to dismantle itself, and I dont think the ruling class are prepared to allow that to happen.

I was just proposing a hypthetical scenario, so you would figure out more about yourself.

[Monty Cantsin]

peaccenicked you and c.o.t.r have really got what im talking about. but my question is how do we raise people awareness so the reality of our lives and they cycle of consumerism and misleading information?

Can we or are we all motivated by self preservation and therefore disallow the things we see as not key to our existence. I feel if we are motivated by self interest without other motivations then there’s not much hope.

[peaccenicked]

The summation of all I have learned on this goes as follows.

Knowledge is not personal, it is social. Knowledge is the summation of the content of all human minds. This knowledge is evolving from the fire to the cell phone, from the worship of tree spirits to the advent of militant materialism. It does not develop in a straaight line but more
of a spiral. The Second world War being perhaps the most retrograde step ever. Yet it moves forward. sometimes it feels too slow{social knowledge}. Sometimes it feels to fast{technological knowledge}, none theless it moves forward.
What is also moving forward is human sensitivity, though sometimes it can decline into reaction due to fear. How many countries would move towards socialism if the US did not bully the world. This fear is not an isolated detail without consequence, it brings fear into the dailly lives of people. The mainstream media produces on the main a stream of fearful images. Socialism if mentioned is portrayed as evil and anti freedom.
What amazes me is that there are any socialists left.
Yet man cannot avoid its own evolution. History can throw a huge ammount of dirt in our faces but there is plenty of water in the rivers and seas and oceans.
Selfishness which does not pay heed to the future which is not in tune with the cycles of history., that which merely survives is dehumanised,.
All we have is our resistence. Each of us has the choice whether to resist or not. Resistence is not easy. It demands that we stand against our own fears. It demands that we stand against societal fears, that we act on the fears of others and show them that we are not afraid.

Look at all the bullies that you have witnessed what do they have in common insecurity,childishness, and perhaps more than a little greed.

Look at the imperialists and their machine. Why are they so insecure?
why are they so childish, why are they so greedy, why are they trying to turn the whole of humanity into clones of themselves.
How can they be so stupid?
The picture that they are painting of themselves is becoming clearer and clearer. In our resistence we can point to it. We can make fun of it. Tear it to peices.
Everyday, another piece of the image of comfortable capitalism falls apart.
People are more and more recognising their on discomfort, not with their beds and their TVs but what is happening in the World.
It was disappointing that the world peace movement did not stop the war in Iraq but it looks as though it has put some breaks on the next one. The world community was fearful for both Iran and Syria. They may still go there.
Yet it will be desparate stuff. Resistence everywhere is gathering strength. Blinkers are being removed.
We dont need to do too much. It is a societal process.

I try to bear in mind these words from the Communist manifesto.

"2) In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.

The Communists, therefore, are on the one hand practically, the most advanced and resolute section of the working-class parties of every country, that section which pushes forward all others; on the other hand, theoretically, they have over the great mass of the proletariat the advantage of clearly understanding the lines of march, the conditions, and the ultimate general results of the proletarian movement.

The immediate aim of the Communists is the same as that of all other proletarian parties: Formation of the proletariat into a class, overthrow of the bourgeois supremacy, conquest of political power by the proletariat.

The theoretical conclusions of the Communists are in no way based on ideas or principles that have been invented, or discovered, by this or that would-be universal reformer.

They merely express, in general terms, actual relations springing from an existing class struggle, from a historical movement going on under our very eyes. The abolition of existing property relations is not at all a distinctive feature of communism.

All property relations in the past have continually been subject to historical change consequent upon the change in historical conditions."

The signs to-day to look for are:
1 inability for imperialism to expand.
2Inability for states to live on credit.
3Inability to politically pull the wool over peoples eyes. not only in one s own country but elswere


These three major currents which zig zag in development indicate for the first time a pre revolutionary situation of global dimensions that could start in the imperialist fatherlands or more likely lead from the poorer countries to unprecedented rebellion in the west.
While you watch and talk about it try to enjoy yourself.
There is no use getting too pissed off.

[Monty Cantsin]

Ill just start off peaccenicked by saying it’s hard to talk with someone when you think pretty much the same things just articulating them differently.

“What is also moving forward is human sensitivity, though sometimes it can decline into reaction due to fear. How many countries would move towards socialism if the US did not bully the world.”

You talk to many people, but for every politically aware person theirs ten that are not. So its like taking one step forward two steps back. It think human sensitivity has always been there its just been shadowed by other factors such as self preservation for the average person but this need to accumulate goods for ones self is no longer needed to the extent because of modern agriculture practise, before the industrial revolution 90% worked on agriculture but now its less then 10%. So even now with our surplus of every thing, you find people taking that necessary self preservation and extending it to greed.


“This fear is not an isolated detail without consequence, it brings fear into the dailly lives of people. The mainstream media produces on the main a stream of fearful images. Socialism if mentioned is portrayed as evil and anti freedom.”

Totally agree with this, today self preservation is being exploited so that people say in there comfort zones. Therefore they do not cause trouble or change, because he who sits on the fence is helping the one in power.

“What amazes me is that there are any socialists left.”

Yes I wonder what starts us off on this journey, because this learning is what is needed to wake up people to the reality around them. One thing that musy be avoided is forcing people in to a thinking our way because if you do that then there’s no improvement on socialist theory and people become drowns like we fear is happening today.

“Selfishness which does not pay heed to the future which is not in tune with the cycles of history., that which merely survives is dehumanised”

I feel that selfishness is a road leading the wrong way. By being self serving your not leavening anything behind worth anything to most people. All that happens you take two steps back saddam was self serving building his own wealth. What has he done his taken Iraq back a few steps letting them slip into the hands of America. He is leaving something behind but how will it be seen in years to come.



As for the anti war movement I feel that it is growing but still is much more to be done. There are still a lot of people out there that don’t know the whole picture I’m sure there’s plenty of stuff that the U.S. other countries are doing that I have no clue about. I do worry a bit but I try not to most of the time. ill go over your post again when I have more time and make some more contributions to the conversation.

p.s. any if there’s any gramma or spelling mistakes I’m sorry.

[peaccenicked]

Take your time comrade there is no hurry.
sometimes the harsh realities of empirical experience can stay longer than they are welcome. It is hard to see change, its direction and potential. I dont think you need convincing, just time, to work through the mood you are in.


Dont let the Bastards get you down.

[Monty Cantsin]

“1 inability for imperialism to expand.
2Inability for states to live on credit.
3Inability to politically pull the wool over peoples eyes. not only in one s own country but elswere”

1) imperialism is still happening, but they have to make more excuses to do so which now are starting to be uncovered. but there’s something I fear example Vietnam there was a big peace movement but it was slow to start something like 5 years after the war it toque to take off. But then after the war people became apathetic again. So what I fear is even though we now have greater awareness it could slide back down.
2) well still 3rd world countries are in det and so is the U.S.A and so many other western countries.
3) Happening all the time in my own country johny said ill never put in a GST gets elected what’s the first thing he does? His be found to lie and hide information on many topics and issues but still his timing is right so he gets away with it.

I don’t think I’m in that much of a troubling mood I still continue with my life though it does consume a lot of my conversation and thought.

[peaccenicked]

Maybe I was wrong about you mood but you do seem to be leaning towards pessimissim. This is sketchy but it might give you some idea of whats going on.
1]Imperialism's inability to expand, is an engaging problem.
The question boils down to whether or not that the lessons of Iraq are learned by the imperialists or not. The biggest lesson is still to be
learned, ie go home, it isnt worth it. If this lesson is learned it gives far less room for imperialism to expand into other territories.
2] The debt of many countries to the IMF and the world bank , most notably Argentina
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/articl...,623072,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,6512,623072,00.html)is causing panic in imperialist circles, the stark choice is basically foreclose on the debt or face rebellion. This more or less the pattern in most countries, except it is not so stark. Things look bad for Turkeyhttp://www.cato.org/research/articles/hank...nke-030223.html (http://www.cato.org/research/articles/hanke-030223.html)
3]http://www.tkp.org.tr/en/index.asp Turkey is becoming a volatile place in terms of class action.

Keep an eye on thishttp://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/


and thishttp://knowourworld.com/countries/usa/2004....php?itemid=128 (http://knowourworld.com/countries/usa/2004election/index.php?itemid=128)


We dont get any real news. It means you have to find it for yourself.

cheers Paul

[peaccenicked]

for more recent news on Argentina
http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=ST&f=4&t=20251 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=20251)

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 04:08 AM
Maybe I was wrong about you mood but you do seem to be leaning towards pessimissim.


cheers Paul
i dont think i was leaning towwards pessismisism maybe latter on but in the frist post i was trying to be motivational with the spartan idea that the masses can not be suppresed for long.

i just like to say thanks for the links great stuff


and whos paul

[peaccenicked]

I am Paul. When I am chatting to someone in particular I like to be a little more familiar.
Thanks
Paul :D :D :D :D :D

[Monty Cantsin]

well nice to meet you paul, my names mat, just so were on familiar terms.

[Monty Cantsin]

So Paul do you agree what people get involved in a movement like anti war, become active and then slip away back into apathy?

I believe that the people can never be stopped and suppressed because society needs the working not the idle. Do you agree with that statement?

[peaccenicked]

mat, i believe that is true but also that historical necessity brings about events. In many religions, this is expressed as:an event will not happen until it is meant to happen. The circumstances have to be opportune. If not this war, maybe the next, the peace movement has to learn how to maintain the momentum of protest. In my country Scotland it seemed to lie down at the commencement of the war and did little to mobilise the mass opposition that roamed our towns and cities before the war.
paul

[Monty Cantsin]

“Maintain the momentum of protest” the problem with anti war protests is they focus on one area thus when a war starts there’s a droop in motivation because the goal is not achievable. So I feel that anti war movements are to focus on one thing and should widen there area of protest to anti imperialism, not “troops out now” that slogan sounds like a rerun of what happened in Somalia were things got tough so they backed out. So the kind of thing doesn’t endear people towards the movement.

[Rastaman]

its just that the masses (most of as humans) especially in america have o real political party to vote for.. who are you going to vote for Rpublicans? they are going to fuck you. Democrats? they'll fuck you to but they'll be smiling. so we dont care about elections... we need a revolution. i think it was mentioned earlier that we all have different realities.. its true.. but sad..

We have psychic potential did you know that?? wouldn't THAT change the world? every thing i encounter you do to. If people in africa died we'd feel the pain.. Then we would really be ONE and act as ONE

[Monty Cantsin]

Rastaman that idea of " If people in africa died we'd feel the pain.. Then we would really be ONE and act as ONE" thats a bit scary but anyways. how are you going to have a revolution when every ones apathetic. so what im asking is how are you going to bring people into the reality of the human social, economic conditions that we face?

[Rastaman]

whtas the point of this sight euripidies?

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 31 2003, 12:49 PM
whtas the point of this sight euripidies?
what do you mean whats the point of the site or my insight ?

[Monty Cantsin]

come on Rastaman i can't anwser if i dont know what you mean.