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hashem
9th February 2012, 05:57
Reports from Vakilabad Prison in Mashhad, Iran confirm that the crimes of the despotic Islamic Republic regime continue at a scale comparable to the slaughter of the decade of the 1980s. The recent executions of political prisoners charged with possession or sale of narcotics, among a group of 30 to 70 prisoners – in the absence of any prior notification of the convicted prisoners themselves and their families – is a continuation of past practices. These horrible conditions have once again provoked panic among prisoners such as what occurred during the 1980’s. The regime’s aggregate prison capacity is 80,000 prisoners but presently more than 205,000 prisoners are being held in detention (1). According to Jallil Mohibi, an attorney, 8 million new cases annually are filed by public prosecutors, which added to pending cases amounts to more than 11 million prosecution cases. There are total of 7,000 judges, of whom 1,500 work at the management / supervisory level. The remaining 5,500 judges must each adjudicate over 20 cases every day. Note the fact that each case on average has 50 pages in its file (2). These facts alone expose the reality that Iran’s judicial system is entirely overwhelmed and that there is little more than cursory review of cases. As a consequence, death by stoning for innocent women like Sakine-Mohammad-Ashtiani, and the execution of teenagers under the age of 18 years routinely occur. This barbaric behavior has provoked anger and severe reactions by people throughout the world against Iran’s despotic Islamic regime. Execution and torture have been the everyday tools of this regime since its consolidation of power. Another report from Kamyaran in Kurdistan tells us that a young man who was charged with possession of alcohol had been detained by police, and that he died in detention as a result of physical torture. His burial ceremony was held in Kamyaran on Tuesday, August 28, 2010 (3). Also, according to a report from Kurdish sources, Mohammad Esmaeil, a Kurdish resident of Ghaladeze in Iraq’s Sulaymaniyah Governate, had been arrested by Islamic Republic security forces in Sardasht, Iran. Due to severe physical torture during interrogation while in detention, he died. (4)

These kinds of crimes occur every day in the regime’s prisons and torture chambers all over Iran.

Due to the political consciousness and activities of opposition organizations and the families of political prisoners, the Islamic regime’s inhumane treatment of political prisoners has been widely exposed. Iranian, and world, opinion has turned against the unholy and tyrannical behavior of the Iranian judicial system toward its political opposition. But injustice, oppression and torture are also endured by non-political prisoners; for some of them, hands and feet are chopped off as punishment for petty theft. This is routinely carried out in Iranian jails and prisons. Courtrooms have become the stage for violent repressive acts – a stage where the wealthy are protected, and where judges are the nemesis of Justice rather than its servants; they are agents of revenge. This is the barbarity brought about by 31 years of the Islamic Republic : a living Hell for 90% of Iran’s population, for whom a solid legal defense is insufficient to ensure justice.


Judicial authority is supposed to based upon the “independent” foundation of parliamentary democracy. However the Iranian judiciary system hasn’t shown any independence over the past 31 years. On the contrary, it has become the servant of the state security apparatus. Judges base their decisions on trumped up charges and fabricated evidence. The degree to which torture is utilized is unprecedented; it is through torture that prisoners come to admit to whatever charges have been brought against them. As seen in a recent case, Sakine Mohamadi Ashtiani was put on national television to “confess” to her “crimes” and then to state publicly that she had not been tortured!


Evidentiary files – especially those related to political prisoners – are fabricated by the Basiji, the military, the Ministry of Information, or even by the Minister of Justice – himself one of the many unscrupulous clerics who have served on “revolutionary” courts. In such courts very often even the defense attorneys are kept uninformed of trial dates for their clients!! In fact, prior to the opening of the trial, the defense attorney isn’t allowed to review the charges or evidence – making it extremely difficult to make any preparations for trial. This is done to avoid the headache of defense attorneys exposing the disarray of the case files and the fabrication (or absence) of evidence.





Regarding the cases of the martyrs Farzad Kamangar, Shireen Alamholi and others, the trumped up, fraudulent charges were dramatically exposed at the Appeals Court level for the tortured Farzad. His defense attorney believed that it was very likely that Farzad would be released. Then, suddenly, the news of his execution by the regime was broadcast. The people, especially in Kurdistan, reacted with astonishment. And the people’s hatred of the Islamic regime has grown.


The blinded religious dictatorship has never been willing to restrict its suppression of civil rights, even for the purpose of improving its international image. The absolutism of their “spiritual” worldview simply does not allow the flexibility to admit, let alone correct, error. For this reason the judicial system continues its march, crushing its own Constitution, and moving ever closer to total fascism. Their vengeance is now aimed at defense attorneys who seek to professionally and conscientiously represent their clients.

A recent Deutshce Welle broadcast, headlined as “When Defense Attorneys Join their Clients in Prison” presented a list of imprisoned attorneys as part of a conversation with Mitra Shojaei :

DW: Nasrin Sotoodeh, the attorney for several human rights activists, was arrested on September 4, 2010 and remains in detention. This is not the first time that the Islamic Republic’s judicial system has arrested a defense attorney, charged the attorney with the crime of defending his client, and sent him to prison.


In March, 2001, two years after the notorious serial murders of more than 80 progressive and revolutionary activists by the regime, Naser Zafarshan, an attorney representing the families of some of the murder victims, was himself arrested. He was charged with publicly releasing federal documents related to the serial murders, and was condemned to 5 years in prison and 50 lashes.


A few months before that incident, Shireen Ebadi was arrested for releasing a cassette recording related to the “Navarsazan” case; the cassette included a recorded “confession” by Amirfarshad Abrahimi, a former member of Ansar-e-Hezbollah. She was convicted and sentenced to 15 months imprisonment; she was also barred from practicing law for 5 years. A court of appeal overturned that sentence, and settled for a fine of 300,000 tomans.


In January, 2003 Mohammadali Dadkhah, the attorney representing Nehzat Azadi, was arrested. He was initially convicted and sentenced to 5 years imprisonment and barred from practicing law for 10 years. A court of appeal reduced the sentence to 5 years imprisonment.

Abdolfattah Soltani, another attorney, was arrested in August, 2005 by undercover agents of the Ministry of Information. He was charged with espionage for publicly releasing his clients’ case files. His clients in these cases were employees of Iran’s Atomic Energy Agency. Soltani spent 7 months in Evin Prison, but then was released on bail. He was convicted, and initially sentenced to 5 years imprisonment, and barred from practicing law for 5 years. A court of appeal exonerated him of all charges.


In February, 2010, Mohammad Oliaifard was reviewing the case files of several of his clients who had received Court summons. For that activity, he was arrested by order of the Director of Court Division 26. This same Ministry of Justice attorney / public defender, in reviewing the execution of Behnood Shojaei in the course of an interview, stated that he believed the execution to have been illegal, given the youth of his client. He was then arrested, accused of publicly criticizing the judicial system, convicted, and punished.


In May, 2010, a few days after the execution of five political prisoners, Khalil Bahramian, the attorney for Farzad Kamangar and Shireen Alamholy (two of the five prisoners who were executed), was himself arrested. Following the execution of his clients, in a media interview, he had continued to defend his clients and had



spelled out his defense strategy at trail. He stated his belief that the authorities knew full well that Arash Kamengar was innocent, but that he had been condemned to death and executed despite his innocence.


With the confirmation of the sentencing of Sakine-Mohammad Ashtiani to death by stoning during the summer of 2010, her attorney, Mohammad Mostafaei, discussed her case with the Media. He was then summoned by the authorities. Due to legal defects in the summons, he refused to show up at the public prosecutor’s office. In response, security agents instead arrested his wife and his brother-in-law. At that point, this Ministry of Justice attorney / public defender fled the country. After his exit from the country, his wife and brother-in-law were released. Presently, Mohammad Mostafaei along with his family resides in Norway.


Also, on September 4, 2010, Nasrin Sotoodeh, Shireen Ebadi’s attorney, was arrested while returning from the public prosecutor’s office. Before being arrested, she had told a Deutsche Welle reporter that security agents contacted her husband several times and had told him that Ms. Sotoodeh must give up defending Shireen Ebadi. After the execution of her client, Arash Rahmanipour, Nasrin Sotoodeh stated in a conversation with Deutsche Welle, “Even when I am unable to assist my clients in any manner, I would still prefer to be on their advocate”.


Mansour Shojaei, who is one of Nasrin Sotoodeh’s clients, says: “Iran is full of clients without attorneys”. Regarding the arrest of his attorney, this women’s rights activist says: “From the client’s point of view, the arrest of one’s attorney is a travesty which could only happen in Iran – where even an attorney like Nasrin Sotoode, whose commitment to social ideals and to human rights is widely known, can be arrested.”


“These activities are a direct attack against defense attorneys. As you know, many of the attorneys of the ‘Association of Human Rights Defenders’, like Mr. Soltani, Mr. Dadkhah…etc can no longer practice law or defend their clients. While it may appear that this situation only impacts a limited number of attorneys, in reality, the rule of law is being threatened. Within the judicial system, advocacy in defense of a client is increasingly subject to retaliation. Sooner or later, the judicial system will operate no differently than extra-judicial or military tribunals, where there is no defense attorney, only one person decides the verdict, and the defendants have no right to defend themselves. Eventually, it is possible that prosecuting attorneys will replace the human rights attorneys in court…” .

Mohammad Mostafaei states that the purpose of these actions is “to silence any kind of demand for justice”. This attorney, who had to flee the country, says: “The aim is clearly to suppress any kind of opposition voices and to deprive Ministry of Justice public defenders of any ability to defend their clients. If they want to defend their clients, they have to keep their mouths shut. The aim is to protect the ones who actually break the law, to allow them to be free to continue their unlawful activities. The judicial system does not want defense attorneys to expose these miscarriages of justice to people across the world. They do not want the Ministry of Justice attorneys to expose their illegal activities to the eyes of the people of the world. They know that the voice of the Ministry of Justice attorneys is the voice of truth, the voice demanding justice, and they cannot possibly tolerate hearing the voice of truth and justice”.


Mr. Dadkhah says: “In 1975, the Iranian government endorsed the entire UN Declaration of Human Rights, entering into a treaty. In accordance with Article 9 of Civil Law, all of the articles of the Declaration are to be taken into account in local legal proceedings, and backtracking from them would be illegal. Besides that, in accordance to the Article 27 of the Vienna Convention, adopted in May, 1969, no government on the basis of its own domestic laws may act in violation of international treaties and or disregard those treaties”.


This is the status of the “judicial apparatus of Iran’s Islamic Republic”. It is a sterile seed which cannot thrive. The counter-revolutionary rulers of the Islamic Republic have driven Iran back to the medieval ages, when accused defendants were deprived of any right to defend themselves.





Once again, this reality clearly shows the historical legitimacy of the slogan “Keep the hands of religion off of the government and public education”. This slogan was shouted by the full blooded revolutionaries of the bourgeois democratic revolutions of the 18th and the 19th centuries; and has continued to be shouted by working
class and communist vanguards right up till now – so long as religion continues to interfere in government affairs, and until religion becomes strictly a personal matter.



K. Abrahim, September 9, 2010



(1) Deutsche Welle, Sept. 1, 2010-10-12,
(2) ibid.
(3) Herana News Agency
(4) Iranian News Agency

Lobotomy
9th February 2012, 06:11
The sharp rise in the number of drug offence executions in Iran comes at a time when the international community, especially many European countries, including Germany, Belgium, France, Ireland and Britain, continues to provide the Islamic republic with financial and technical support for its anti-drug campaign.

Paradoxically, many of these countries have repeatedly condemned executions in Iran while praising its achievements in the anti-drug field. According to Amnesty, the EU has provided Iran with €9.5m over three years and the UN office for drugs and crime (UNODC) has also given the country £14m since 2005 for its anti-narcotics campaign.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/15/iran-capital-punishment

dodger
9th February 2012, 08:03
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/15/iran-capital-punishment

Working at a top Mayfair hotel you get all types above and below stairs. I was chatting to the luggage porter once, asked him who had all those splendid cases, all 18. "Shah's sister, she's big in the opium trade. Controls it!" Who was that guy when I came down earlier, the one in the camel hair coat and trilby, talked posh? He had 3 bruisers with him?" "Foreign Office". She left in a government Daimler, with her baggage and bruisers in a fleet of London cabs. The colonel as we called him, knocked at our messroom wanting to use our sink. Bending down to wash his hands, like Pontius Pilate, a Browning Automatic revealed. He exclaimed "GHAASTLEEY woman!!" to no one in particular, threw water at his face, dried himself said "Good day gentlemen!" and marched off. "A walk through the park I think!"

The princess is no more I guess. Who controls Iran's opium, I don't have a clue. Maybe, just maybe a Mufti in mufti is met by somebody in a camel hair coat and escorted to the hotel. It self described as "A home from home for the aristocracy." Indeed it was. Princesses too. Now I suppose they let any old riff-raff in.

NoMasters
10th February 2012, 02:29
Iran is as Islamic as America is Christian.

They take Islam COMPLETELY out of context. I can say this because I was once a Muslim when I was younger. And quite a scholarly one at that. Iranians follow the Shi'a methodology that is blatantly paganistic in Islamic terms.

They are in fact the only theocracy I can think of, maybe Greece used to be, but I don't know.

But I guess this being a religious thread, Islam like all other religions, at least the Abrahamic religions, all have culturally relative "laws" that seem barbaric today. However, it must me mentioned that these relative laws are in fact, relative. Although to be sure it is highly unlikely that more than .1% of the Jewish, Muslim, or Christian population follow their religion as supposed to, especially Christians, who have with evidence adapted to paganism to assimilate into the Holy Roman Empire, which was neither Holy, Roman, nor an Empire ;)

As for Islamic judicial system being a voracious slaughterhouse as you put it, is a pretty harsh accusation that holds little water. Islam as is, doesn't support those laws AT ALL. It is the mere corruption of Islam, like that of Christianity and Judaism, that allows for the elite classes to stay where they are. It is easier for Iran to stay in power as a theocracy by brainwashing the people to think their laws are "Islamic." Just as Americans are brainwashed to think Jesus was white with blue eyes, and that God only loves America, thus allowing the country to impose hegemonic policy and intervention all over the world.

As for Judaism, I believe that has been taken advantage of to benefit the Zionist movement and the blatant terrorist state of Israel. Jews aren't supposed to have a true homeland according to the Torah. It is the corruption of religion that is a voracious slaughterhouse my friend.

Although to be sure, there are some horrible texts in all religions that should not be taken seriously, and in fact they should be condemned to the fullest extent.

Rafiq
10th February 2012, 03:15
Yeah, a corruption of Islam, because 1400 year old Islam fits well with western liberal standards on accident, right, dumb fuck?

... Or did you just sugar coat it to adjust it to modern standards? Hmmm

NoMasters
10th February 2012, 03:29
Yeah, a corruption of Islam, because 1400 year old Islam fits well with western liberal standards on accident, right, dumb fuck?

... Or did you just sugar coat it to adjust it to modern standards? Hmmm

Lol. It doesn't fit well, but it certainly isn't a voracious slaughterhouse.

Some of the basic values and principles of all religions are compatible with communism, in fact, the Abrahamic religions started the first principles of communism.

hashem
10th February 2012, 06:06
Lol. It doesn't fit well, but it certainly isn't a voracious slaughterhouse.

Some of the basic values and principles of all religions are compatible with communism, in fact, the Abrahamic religions started the first principles of communism.


Not true. according to Abrahamic religions, people of different sexes, religions and classes are exactly unequal. women are not equal with men, believers in Abrahamic religions are not equal with pagans or atheists, slaves are not equal with masters and ...
all Abrahamic religions recognise private ownership of means of production, land, slaves and women (islam clearly states that women are property of their husbands).

you should really study more before taking such positions. they were some Iranians who would have agreed with you in 1979. but today they are resting in mass graves.

NoMasters
10th February 2012, 18:58
Not true. according to Abrahamic religions, people of different sexes, religions and classes are exactly unequal. women are not equal with men, believers in Abrahamic religions are not equal with pagans or atheists, slaves are not equal with masters and ...
all Abrahamic religions recognise private ownership of means of production, land, slaves and women (islam clearly states that women are property of their husbands).

you should really study more before taking such positions. they were some Iranians who would have agreed with you in 1979. but today they are resting in mass graves.

"all who owned property or houses sold them and lay them at the feet of the apostles to be distributed to everyone according to his need." Acts 4:32-35

Of course there are bad aspectsof the Abrahamic religions, but they are in true principles mostly peaceful and equal. You do realize that more than 90% of the Bible is fabricated right?

And good note on the 1979 Iranian revolution and the Islamic Marxists. Not many people know that in my opinion.

However, Islam itself has several verses in favor of socialist and Marxist values, at least primitive ones.

“…And those who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in Allah’s way — announce to them a painful chastisement.” Surah 9:34

You do realize these thoughts and verses are REVOLUTIONARY for their time right? They are some of the first pushes for socialism in many ways, even though a lot of the religious principles are class based, not all of it though and we should not understand them to be a voracious slaughterhouse.

"And We desired to show favour unto those who were oppressed in the earth, and to make them examples and to make them the inheritors" Surah 28:5

How is this not a pretense to the dictatorship of the proletariat?

You are very mistaken in your understanding, I have researched Islam thoroughly, I was a devout Salafi for several years and have found even more examples of socialism and communism principles in the Hadith's, at least the ones verified by Ibn Qathir.

It is very easy to throw away the socialist and even Marxist ideals in these religions if you are a Marxist and religiously worship Marx to the point where you take everything he says to be 100% true, which is not the case clearly. Although he was maybe 95% right, which is damn good haha.

hashem
12th February 2012, 17:47
"all who owned property or houses sold them and lay them at the feet of the apostles to be distributed to everyone according to his need." Acts 4:32-35

Of course there are bad aspectsof the Abrahamic religions, but they are in true principles mostly peaceful and equal. You do realize that more than 90% of the Bible is fabricated right?

And good note on the 1979 Iranian revolution and the Islamic Marxists. Not many people know that in my opinion.

However, Islam itself has several verses in favor of socialist and Marxist values, at least primitive ones.

“…And those who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in Allah’s way — announce to them a painful chastisement.” Surah 9:34

You do realize these thoughts and verses are REVOLUTIONARY for their time right? They are some of the first pushes for socialism in many ways, even though a lot of the religious principles are class based, not all of it though and we should not understand them to be a voracious slaughterhouse.

"And We desired to show favour unto those who were oppressed in the earth, and to make them examples and to make them the inheritors" Surah 28:5

How is this not a pretense to the dictatorship of the proletariat?

You are very mistaken in your understanding, I have researched Islam thoroughly, I was a devout Salafi for several years and have found even more examples of socialism and communism principles in the Hadith's, at least the ones verified by Ibn Qathir.

It is very easy to throw away the socialist and even Marxist ideals in these religions if you are a Marxist and religiously worship Marx to the point where you take everything he says to be 100% true, which is not the case clearly. Although he was maybe 95% right, which is damn good haha.


spending gold and silver in allahs way, can mean (as we have seen in practice) spending it for war against pagans (present leftists) and so on. allahs way is not peoples way, it is what representive of allah on earth (moslem ruler) says what it is. there is nothing revolutionary about it. even older religions belived in same way. belivers in ancient idols sacrificed and donated their properties to their gods.

"those who were oppressed in the earth" doesnt refer to peasants, slaves, women or religious minorities. quran clearly approves slavery and sees women as lesser people. that phrase is an opium for oppressed people.

do you even know the fate of "islamic marxists" and revolution of Iran?

KrasnayaRossiya
12th February 2012, 17:50
"what you do to the other,it gets done to you"
seems fair to me

NoMasters
12th February 2012, 18:50
spending gold and silver in allahs way, can mean (as we have seen in practice) spending it for war against pagans (present leftists) and so on. allahs way is not peoples way, it is what representive of allah on earth (moslem ruler) says what it is. there is nothing revolutionary about it. even older religions belived in same way. belivers in ancient idols sacrificed and donated their properties to their gods.

"those who were oppressed in the earth" doesnt refer to peasants, slaves, women or religious minorities. quran clearly approves slavery and sees women as lesser people. that phrase is an opium for oppressed people.

do you even know the fate of "islamic marxists" and revolution of Iran?

Again, you are using examples of actual events rather than the truth of what the words mean. That is like me saying the USSR was Communist. It is not true in anyway. Although Lenin's early years looked as if there were going to the path of true Communism.

To say that there aren't principles inherently expressed within Islam and the real Christianity, not the Christianity that thinks Jesus is a walking Zombie, you are just in denial.

I didn't say they were Communists in all regards, but they all laid out principles that resembled radical leftist ideals. It is merely the switching of words that makes it so much different to socialism.

Switch Muslim with worker, switch Allah to revolution, and you have something that doesn't seem to be very far from radical socialism.

hashem
12th February 2012, 19:21
Again, you are using examples of actual events rather than the truth of what the words mean. That is like me saying the USSR was Communist. It is not true in anyway. Although Lenin's early years looked as if there were going to the path of true Communism.

To say that there aren't principles inherently expressed within Islam and the real Christianity, not the Christianity that thinks Jesus is a walking Zombie, you are just in denial.

I didn't say they were Communists in all regards, but they all laid out principles that resembled radical leftist ideals. It is merely the switching of words that makes it so much different to socialism.

Switch Muslim with worker, switch Allah to revolution, and you have something that doesn't seem to be very far from radical socialism.

what words mean are clear: slavery is legitimate, women are lesser than men and non moslems are lesser than moslems. that is exactly what is written in quran. even if you play with words, there is no way to pull anything revolutionary out of these statements. there is nothing but opium in there.

no activist or organization which has truly participated in revolutionary and progressive struggle has ever managed to combine religious teachings with revolutionary and progressive theory. those who claimed such thing is possible have only achieved opportunism. for example see history of mojahedin in Iran. if such a combination was possible, then perhaps there was an example which could show a successful combination after all these years. but there is non. can that be an accident?

NoMasters
13th February 2012, 00:15
what words mean are clear: slavery is legitimate, women are lesser than men and non moslems are lesser than moslems. that is exactly what is written in quran. even if you play with words, there is no way to pull anything revolutionary out of these statements. there is nothing but opium in there.

no activist or organization which has truly participated in revolutionary and progressive struggle has ever managed to combine religious teachings with revolutionary and progressive theory. those who claimed such thing is possible have only achieved opportunism. for example see history of mojahedin in Iran. if such a combination was possible, then perhaps there was an example which could show a successful combination after all these years. but there is non. can that be an accident?

It's spelled Muslim first of all. Second, it is mujahideen.

I know this. I used to be a devout Muslims.

Please stop calling Iranians Muslims. They are Shi'a, clearly paganistic.

And as for women being lesser and the other things you mentioned, that simply isn't all of the religion. Of course there are bad aspects to a 1500 year old religion. But to deny that there are inherent socialist principles in Islam and other Abrahamic religions in nonsense. You are pointing out the cultural issues based inside the Qur'an. Although they mentioned that non-Muslims are lesser, that is one line from a 1000 page book.

You need to try to understand what I am saying here. And clearly you do not.

Richard Nixon
13th February 2012, 04:22
Please stop calling Iranians Muslims. They are Shi'a, clearly paganistic.


Could you please elaborate on that? Shi'as are not really Muslim?

RGacky3
13th February 2012, 10:49
Thats rediculous, if your gonna say Shi'a are not Muslims, then I can say Catholics and evangelicals are not christian.

artanis17
13th February 2012, 11:32
Thats rediculous, if your gonna say Shi'a are not Muslims, then I can say Catholics and evangelicals are not christian.

Islam religion has itself many elements from older paganic arabic beliefs. You could say it is a mixture of arabic tradition and judaism.

Shi'a are a large group with various teachings. From my own experience I would say both Sunni and Shi'a have pagan elements but Shi'a have it more. But it also depends on which Shi'a they are. There are even kinds of Shi'a which even never go to mosques (they do not have mosques in their towns at all), do not care for Koran and they have very different traditions which actually have nothing to do with Islam. You would hardly call them Muslims but since Islam is kind of an assimilating religion these people have used islamic elements in order to protect themselves by showing out world that they are muslims. I think it is called "esotericism"

A lot of elements in Christianity are paganic too, even more. Catholics and Orthodox have lots of paganic rituals also in Orthodox churches it is extremely dependent on regional traditions where people's old traditions are mixed with monotheism.


Please stop calling Iranians Muslims. They are Shi'a, clearly paganistic.

This argument is extreme but it is a historical truth that Iranians have never truely adopted Islam. Despite the fact Iran is said to be an Islamic Republic. People of Iran are not that religious. They have various other traditions. So the argument is true but too extreme. Because Jafari Shi'a which is official religion of Iran is still close to basic Islam with some spices.

dodger
13th February 2012, 12:35
Sound points Dr Zaund, thank you for your post. In Mindanao All religions assimilate custom and superstition. I was visited by Muslim hunters only the other day. They offered me a magnificent wild boar. We exchanged food and cash, sealing the deal with Rum and Tuba they stayed the night to sleep off the effects. I have muslim relatives by marriage they often share the same superstitions and old prejudices, we laugh at each other and ourselves at family 'get togethers.' How could it be otherwise? We live cheek by jowl.

Nox
13th February 2012, 12:57
Fuck Islam. Filth.

NoMasters
13th February 2012, 19:11
Could you please elaborate on that? Shia's are not really Muslim?

Great post a few posts down from this.

Shi'as are extremely paganistic according to Islam.

They believe that there are 12 Imams that are divine in someway or another. Shi'a Islam is-like a poster mentioned earlier-a paganistic adaptation of Arab culture to Islam, similar to the Christian's adaptation of Roman paganism.

So no, Shia's are not Muslims, and should never be a representation of Islam in anyway at all.

NoMasters
13th February 2012, 19:15
Islam religion has itself many elements from older paganic arabic beliefs. You could say it is a mixture of arabic tradition and judaism.

Shi'a are a large group with various teachings. From my own experience I would say both Sunni and Shi'a have pagan elements but Shi'a have it more. But it also depends on which Shi'a they are. There are even kinds of Shi'a which even never go to mosques (they do not have mosques in their towns at all), do not care for Koran and they have very different traditions which actually have nothing to do with Islam. You would hardly call them Muslims but since Islam is kind of an assimilating religion these people have used islamic elements in order to protect themselves by showing out world that they are muslims. I think it is called "esotericism"

A lot of elements in Christianity are paganic too, even more. Catholics and Orthodox have lots of paganic rituals also in Orthodox churches it is extremely dependent on regional traditions where people's old traditions are mixed with monotheism.



This argument is extreme but it is a historical truth that Iranians have never truely adopted Islam. Despite the fact Iran is said to be an Islamic Republic. People of Iran are not that religious. They have various other traditions. So the argument is true but too extreme. Because Jafari Shi'a which is official religion of Iran is still close to basic Islam with some spices.

Mostly true, but there is no Shi'a branch of Islam that is not paganistic. I am sure you know what the Salafi sect is. Even some branches of Sufism are still Muslim.

Al-Alawites are a great example of paganism in the Shi'a branches, although to be sure they are different than other Shi'a branches because they mix Christianity and even Judaism.

Sunn'i and some Sufi groups are true Muslims. I believe that Salafs are the closest to principled Islam. And to be sure Salafs are different than Wahhabis.

Rafiq
13th February 2012, 23:20
Great post a few posts down from this.

Shi'as are extremely paganistic according to Islam.

They believe that there are 12 Imams that are divine in someway or another. Shi'a Islam is-like a poster mentioned earlier-a paganistic adaptation of Arab culture to Islam, similar to the Christian's adaptation of Roman paganism.

So no, Shia's are not Muslims, and should never be a representation of Islam in anyway at all.

Funny, a lot of Shia's say the same about Sunnis.

Which bastards should I believe?

ВАЛТЕР
13th February 2012, 23:31
I think after the revolution we should turn all Churches, Mosques, and Synagogues into dance clubs. Where we drink gratuitous amounts of alcohol, have promiscuous amounts of sex, and party all night. :cool:

hashem
16th February 2012, 14:45
I think after the revolution we should turn all Churches, Mosques, and Synagogues into dance clubs. Where we drink gratuitous amounts of alcohol, have promiscuous amounts of sex, and party all night. :cool:

there is no need for a revolution if you are looking for alcohol or sex. you can find more alcohol and sex in capitalism system.

after the revolution, people of different religions will be equal and free. no one can take over their Churches, Mosques and Synagogues.

the only things which true revolutionaries do, are cutting governmental funds and seizing properties which came from governmental sources (if such things are available), giving people enough education and ensuring freedom and equality of people. religious people will not be oppressed.

pluckedflowers
16th February 2012, 14:59
the only things which true revolutionaries do, are cutting governmental funds and seizing properties which came from governmental sources (if such things are available)

And, um, abolishing private property, right?