Man is a Wolf

[trivas7]

Man is a wolf towards other men (and women). He is prey to other species, the planet, and others that don't belong to his tribe. That is the conclusion of evolutionary biology. This is why everyone experiences hurt and unkindness from others. This is the ugly truth re human nature. This is why I live in a police state: coercion is at the heart of every society. Hobbes understood this. The Chinese Legalists understood this. This is why every revolution only births repressive regimes. Under socialism there is no recognition of individual rights and thus why command type economies become oppressive. This is why no socialist economy has ever -- and could not -- work in practice..

[Comrade Auldnik]

0/10. Troll harder.

[hatzel]

So does this mean you're not a socialist at the moment?

[danyboy27]

If that was true, we wouldnt have been able to evolve has a species.
If it was really what we where, we would be inxtinct by now or living in the wood, barely aware of what going on.

[Ocean Seal]

Except that whole primitive commune thing. And why do you like the idea of a police state?

[dodger]

Trivas you say you are a Werewolf----Do hope you are O.K. nooowwhhhoooo!!

Since we are on the subject of Trivia, can somebody explain why if I tread on the toes of a fellow passenger on a crowded tube train, the victim apologises to me before I can offer mine. Maybe we might look at Chimps and press on to early man and look at societies on our planet, that maybe are isolated from the modern world. If that takes too much effort why not look around us , or no , go back and look at the Wolf how it survives the relationships they develop with each other. Their care of the young. Might profit us to look deeper before we make pronouncements about modern society. I can't believe it was my toenails forcing through my size 11's, hands turning to claws, and a carnivorous howl that prompted her instinctive response. Or why indeed I should feel the need to offer my regrets when she was at least 18ins shorter and quite a few pounds lighter. We do need to look see what we want, what we need for a future, it must start by discarding a great deal of reactionary baggage.

[Tim Cornelis]

The evolutionary biology I've read indicates the exact opposite. Also this:

Jeremy Rifkin said “in the last ten years, there has been some very interesting developments in evolutionary biology, neuro-cognitive science, child development research, and many other fields, which is beginning to challenge some of these long held shibboleths about human nature,” and continues to say that “all humans are soft-wired with mirror neurons” which allow for empathic abilities. New developments in several scientific fields, according to Rifkin “suggests that we are actually soft-wired, not for aggression, and violence, and self-interest, and utilitarianism” but “that we are actually soft-wired for sociability, attachment … affection, companionship.

If we look at human history we see that for 99.8 percent of human existence humans have lived in egalitarian arrangements without state and little hierarchy.

[hatzel]

can somebody explain why if I tread on the toes of a fellow passenger on a crowded tube train, the victim apologises to me before I can offer mine

That's a British thing. All of my non-British friends find it very strange that I apologise for being bumped into. Because they, of course, wouldn't dream of it. I tell this in the interests of internationalism...does it perhaps prove that British culture is closer to socialism? We share the responsibility. Marx theorised that socialism would spring up in somewhere like Britain: the birthplace of industrial capitalism. Can we draw links between the two

This brings us back on topic: some societies appear more 'wolf-like' than others. This may influence the perceived likelihood of socialism amongst those of a given cultural reality, where certain cooperative or competitive values may be elevated.

[artanis17]

Ah again this humans are not capable of socialism thing :D Wasn't there a good stickied post somewhere to reply these guys.

T8r3cWM4JII

[Blake's Baby]

That's a British thing. All of my non-British friends find it very strange that I apologise for being bumped into. Because they, of course, wouldn't dream of it. I tell this in the interests of internationalism...does it perhaps prove that British culture is closer to socialism? We share the responsibility. Marx theorised that socialism would spring up in somewhere like Britain: the birthplace of industrial capitalism. Can we draw links between the two...

Nah, just our liberal guilt, or (at least as far as English men are concerned) because Nanny convinced us we were naughty when we were small, whipping our bare bottoms while she did - the only close contact we ever got from a woman, as Mama was a frigid drunk who thought about us less than the dogs, leading to a lifelong mental connection between breasts, shame and flagellation, as I'm somewhat unreliably informed 'the French' would generally have it.

So it's a kind of Calvinist masochism fetish that makes us appologise for things that aren't our fault.

Sorry.

So, all 'men' (but not women?) are wolves, except English men, who are sheep, in wolves' clothing?

[Ele'ill]

Man is a wolf towards other men (and women). He is prey to other species, the planet, and others that don't belong to his tribe. That is the conclusion of evolutionary biology. This is why everyone experiences hurt and unkindness from others. This is the ugly truth re human nature. This is why I live in a police state: coercion is at the heart of every society. Hobbes understood this. The Chinese Legalists understood this. This is why every revolution only births repressive regimes. Under socialism there is no recognition of individual rights and thus why command type economies become oppressive. This is why no socialist economy has ever -- and could not -- work in practice..

So you're back to this again. This isn't a troll, folks, this is trivas7.

[GPDP]

So you're back from your pseudo-socialist stint into another batshit insane flavor-of-the-month cappie ideology.

And people were arguing for your unrestriction. When will they learn?

[runequester]

Man is a wolf towards other men (and women). He is prey to other species, the planet, and others that don't belong to his tribe. That is the conclusion of evolutionary biology. This is why everyone experiences hurt and unkindness from others. This is the ugly truth re human nature. This is why I live in a police state: coercion is at the heart of every society. Hobbes understood this. The Chinese Legalists understood this. This is why every revolution only births repressive regimes. Under socialism there is no recognition of individual rights and thus why command type economies become oppressive. This is why no socialist economy has ever -- and could not -- work in practice..

If this is the case, why did tribes evolve?

[zimmerwald1915]

Whoever thought up that particular metaphor didn't know much about wolves. Or men.

[dodger]

That's a British thing. All of my non-British friends find it very strange that I apologise for being bumped into. Because they, of course, wouldn't dream of it. I tell this in the interests of internationalism...does it perhaps prove that British culture is closer to socialism? We share the responsibility. Marx theorised that socialism would spring up in somewhere like Britain: the birthplace of industrial capitalism. Can we draw links between the two

This brings us back on topic: some societies appear more 'wolf-like' than others. This may influence the perceived likelihood of socialism amongst those of a given cultural reality, where certain cooperative or competitive values may be elevated.

An iron fist in a velvet glove, is still an iron fist. The fact is men and women wish to lead peaceful lives. An orderly queue seems to evoke hysterical laughter from Neapolitans, a challenge. I have been the butt of their humour. Our attitude to war. which statistically we often oppose is allowed to be carried out in our name. Still we now have a Ministry of Defence, so much better than a War Department. A step up on the ladder, not sure where. Whatever attitudes or social mores that we have developed as a nation , no doubt will be of great service in building socialism. We certainly are productive. If we need to put up signs asking us to give up seats to infirm folk shame on us, but we must. Maybe then it will become like second nature. We certainly must explore with care what options can be utilized in such an unequal fight. Asymmetrical warfare is hardly a new science, old as time. We need to bring it up to date and fight clever. How did we vanquish the wolf from Britain? We trapped, poisoned, hunted and destroyed habitat. Ok , that is how it is done. It has always been a long drawn out bloody business no wonder Britons opted for a peaceful existence. Wouldn't you?

[Rafiq]

Man is what the mode of production (which he unintentionally developed) demands him to be.

We'll kill each other to feed capital, and the bourgeois class.

The communists do not seek to end violence and "human nature". Rather, we seek to bring about a mode of production that is more efficient in regards to handling these things. Surly a naive fool would think capitalism is the highest expression of technological and structural progress in these regards.

[CommunityBeliever]

Man is a wolf towards other men (and women). He is prey to other species, the planet, and others that don't belong to his tribe. That is the conclusion of evolutionary biology. This is why everyone experiences hurt and unkindness from others. This is the ugly truth re human nature. This is why I live in a police state: coercion is at the heart of every society. Hobbes understood this. The Chinese Legalists understood this. This is why every revolution only births repressive regimes. Under socialism there is no recognition of individual rights and thus why command type economies become oppressive. This is why no socialist economy has ever -- and could not -- work in practice..

If that were true, wouldn't that be all the more reason to have a repressive command economy? A command economy could repress our "wolf" nature and prevent cut-throat competition from leading to us savagely killing one another. This seems to me like it would be a better option then to have a capitalist economy which further encourages the destructive competition.

Of course, what you are saying actually isn't true. As an outspoken vegan, I have spent a long time refuting arguments that humans are predators or carnivores. You can't kill anything with your bare hands, but you can use those same hands to build deadly killing tools. However, the act of tool construction is an element of culture not biology. If we didn't live in a culture which build weapons for a profit, and instead we lived in a compassionate culture, then humans would be basically peaceful.

[Elysian]

I respectfully suggest that people stop judging trivas. It is alright to be frustrated, especially when humans behave the way they do. What he said about ppl being unkind is true, and it is understandable to have reservations. People like us who are hurt all the time by capitlism find it hard to be optimistic.

[Deicide]

If slavery was still widely practiced, It'd be possible to give a similar argument in favor of slavery.

For example.

Slavery is human nature; some are more powerful than others, thus, they can rightfully own those who are weaker and inferior. It's only natural.

[RGacky3]

Man is a wolf towards other men (and women). He is prey to other species, the planet, and others that don't belong to his tribe. That is the conclusion of evolutionary biology.

Show me the peer related studies, because if it is true its a breakthrough in science, but I'm guessing you just made it up.


Hobbes understood this.

Except there are tons of things wrong with Hobbes philosophy.

Basically antrhopology and actual evolutionary biology.


This is why no socialist economy has ever -- and could not -- work in practice..

The exact same argument could, and was, made against democracy.

[dodger]

I respectfully suggest that people stop judging trivas. It is alright to be frustrated, especially when humans behave the way they do. What he said about ppl being unkind is true, and it is understandable to have reservations. People like us who are hurt all the time by capitlism find it hard to be optimistic.

Elysian, I would respectfully ask, no beg you to stop your sanctimonious whining tone. Trivas tells us there are wolves out there. I thank him for the warning. He wont be shocked to hear that there are Jackals too. With a few laughing Hyenas out in the Revleft Game Reserve. Which animal do you most feel affinity with? You might like to start another one of your threads. Me, I always felt more than a little attachment to the Jack-Ass. You might have your own views, as to why?
Whilst I am far too modest to even give you a hint.

Heavens we are all in the same boat, and yes optimism may well be in short supply. Pessimism surely has its obvious attractions. I suppose we could emulate the Pubs in Britain at the height of the Blitz facing a very uncertain future. "There will be no PESSIMISM in this house!" Was the sign above the bar.Those days long gone, but the sentiment still resonates with some.

[Zealot]

If you love the police state because of your "Man is a Wolf" argument, then why so angry about "oppressive Socialist states"? You should be right at home in so-called oppressive Socialism.

[trivas7]

Man is what the mode of production (which he unintentionally developed) demands him to be.

We'll kill each other to feed capital, and the bourgeois class.

The communists do not seek to end violence and "human nature". Rather, we seek to bring about a mode of production that is more efficient in regards to handling these things. Surly a naive fool would think capitalism is the highest expression of technological and structural progress in these regards.
Economic determinism is merely dogmatic claptrap.

Efficiency to produce wealth is exactly what would be required to demonstrate socialism's superiority over capitalism, but that's never happened. And if it was surely it would have emerged somewhere on earth by now.

[Rafiq]

Economic determinism is merely dogmatic claptrap.

I think historical evidence shows otherwise. Humans can only express their "Freedom of Will" within the constraint established by the existing mode of production, or "Material conditions", if you will.


Efficiency to produce wealth is exactly what would be required to demonstrate socialism's superiority over capitalism, but that's never happened. And if it was surely it would have emerged somewhere on earth by now.


I believe it was none other than Marx who pointed out socialism can never develop, if it doesn't spread to already existing industrialized countries with a tremendous amount of influence. 20th century Communism was merely the degeneration of socialism (If any to begin with) in the process.

Of coarse capitalism is superior than 20th century communism. However, 20th century communism was never powerful enough to fully surpass the capitalist mode of production to begin with, hence, many of the contradictions within the capitalist mode of production pointed out by Marx, became increasingly prevalent in the communist countries. And, as I said, you'd aught to be a fool to believe that capitalism is the last, and most efficient system humans will ever be able to organize themselves in. And to compare it with previous modes of productions is just as ridiculous. Besides, the communists are no opportunists. They are not struggling to fight for a better system. They are fighting to achieve the highest expression of their class interest: Absolute proletarian domination over all aspects of society, and the emancipation of the proletarian class in the process.

[Crux]

Man is a wolf towards other men (and women). He is prey to other species, the planet, and others that don't belong to his tribe. That is the conclusion of evolutionary biology. This is why everyone experiences hurt and unkindness from others. This is the ugly truth re human nature. This is why I live in a police state: coercion is at the heart of every society. Hobbes understood this. The Chinese Legalists understood this. This is why every revolution only births repressive regimes. Under socialism there is no recognition of individual rights and thus why command type economies become oppressive. This is why no socialist economy has ever -- and could not -- work in practice..
Silly wolf, what are you doing on the internet? How can you type?! I imagine with your paws it must be very difficult.
Besides that whole "human nature" argument is so 1840's, but you wouldn't know that, you're a wolf. Woof, wolf!

[rylasasin]

Man is a wolf


http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120125125613/elderscrolls/images/thumb/f/f5/Werewolf.png/696px-Werewolf.png

[bugsbunny]

The evolutionary biology I've read indicates the exact opposite. Also this:

Jeremy Rifkin said “in the last ten years, there has been some very interesting developments in evolutionary biology, neuro-cognitive science, child development research, and many other fields, which is beginning to challenge some of these long held shibboleths about human nature,” and continues to say that “all humans are soft-wired with mirror neurons” which allow for empathic abilities. New developments in several scientific fields, according to Rifkin “suggests that we are actually soft-wired, not for aggression, and violence, and self-interest, and utilitarianism” but “that we are actually soft-wired for sociability, attachment … affection, companionship.

If we look at human history we see that for 99.8 percent of human existence humans have lived in egalitarian arrangements without state and little hierarchy.

That was when humans lived in small groups of hunter gatherers consisting of mostly kin. Once in a while they meet other groups and exchange females to avoid incest. They could see that incestous liasons produced unhealthy kids and so avoided it. That's what Australian abrogines used to do in the 19th century.

Altruism is easier to practice amongst kin. As families grow larger, they became clans. As clans grew larger, they became tribes. As tribes grew larger they became races.

There is a strong will to survive. So each organism tries its best to find food and put himself first. Then there is the need to propagate his own genes. So he puts his kids first over other people's kids.

He puts his clan or tribe ahead of other clans or tribes. In New Zealand, it was reported that when tribal war broke out, each tribe would calculate which of the warring tribes they were closer with in terms of blood. Then they would take the side of the tribe they deem to have closer blood ties.

So you see there is a preference for those who share your own genes. Now in a large complex society that we have today, millions of people have to co-operate in order for the society to function. The further away we are in familial terms, the less altruistic we become. That is why Socialism has always failed once the group gets too big.

Insects like ants, bees, wasps can do it because they have Queens. Thus each insect is a sibling that shares similar genes. A Queen insect, unlike mammals, can have millions of offsprings. This makes collective living possible on a large scale. But it does not work with humans who are mammals.

That is why Socialism has failed time and time again.

[RGacky3]

Economic determinism is merely dogmatic claptrap.

Where did he argue for economic determanism?

[Revolution starts with U]

That is one of the most wildly anti Anthropological record and innacurate portrayals of human social relations I have ever seen.

Just to let you know, incest taboos is one of our species few cultural universals. Why is it that rightists think tribes were like one small family in a vast wilderness cut off from the rest of humanity? Then one day some genius father put up a fence and saved us all from barbarism!

I would suggest you study anthropology, and less Mises, lest you look foolish.

[trivas7]

That is one of the most wildly anti Anthropological record and innacurate portrayals of human social relations I have ever seen. [...]

I would suggest you study anthropology, and less Mises, lest you look foolish.
Please speak to me about all those societies in which coercion of the individual in some form or other did not exist.

Unlike the study of anthropology from the study of Mises one might actually learn something about the prospects of a future socialist economy -- but that isn't your concern, is it?

[magicme]

Unlike the study of anthropology from the study of Mises one might actually learn something about the prospects of a future socialist economy -- but that isn't your concern, is it?

Didn't you think it was due to anthropological factors that a socialist economy can't work? What with us being wolves and suchforth, sorry if I misunderstood.

But I'd be very surprised if evolutionary biology means that men are wolves. We're very different to wolves; we use tools, language and knowledge transmitted through the ages to make our economy, wolves just run around and eat stuff they find.

Also your idea that socialist, command economies (as if there's no command in the bourgeois economy, that's a different issue though) don't work and can't work is definitely contentious. Even if we accept that the soviet, Chinese economies were in some way socialist (I don't know enough history or economics to enter that debate) it's definitely true that their economies worked to an extent. The Soviet Union wouldn't have been able to defeat the Nazis if its economy hadn't worked. I also find it notable that when the ruling elites where I live have ever wanted to something doing in a hurry (like defeating Nazi Germany or holding a big sports event) they've tended to use a command type economic policy to pursue these goals. Certainly these weren't socialist economic policies but what's just as sure is that they weren't based on the Austrian economics school.

For me Uncle Karl looks like he had a correct handle on how the economy works because it keeps panning out exactly how I think he said it would. The current mode of production's time is done and that's creating all kinds of stresses. Like with digital media. The mode of production has leapt past the bourgeois, private ownership model. There's nothing anyone can realistically do to prevent free ownership of digital media without doing something that will hold the economy back (like shut the internet down). But the bourgeois preoccupation with private property rights means that that their representatives in governments will battle against this for as long as they can. It's ridiculous.

[Revolution starts with U]

Please speak to me about all those societies in which coercion of the individual in some form or other did not exist.

Unlike the study of anthropology from the study of Mises one might actually learn something about the prospects of a future socialist economy -- but that isn't your concern, is it?

Just to name one, the Nez Perce people of the northwest US. They had chiefs. But all decisions were only guidelines, non binding on individuals.

But I wasn't responding to you. I wasresponding to the claim that HGs were "mostly small groups of kin."

And yet you're going to come here and tell us about "dogmatic claptrap" and then peddle the theories of a man who not only used no evidence for his claims... but claimed evidence couldn't overwrite his theories!

Anthropology is the study of humans as they are and have been. If you want to learn what people are going to do, you start there.

As for the future prospects of altruism (which is not socialism Mr Scarecrow) ... in most HG societies nobody tells the best hunter to share his catch with the tribe, and nobody punishes him if he doesn't. It is just what happens out of custom; because that is what humans do, we follow customs that often develop organically.

[trivas7]

[...]
Anthropology is the study of humans as they are and have been. If you want to learn what people are going to do, you start there.

As for the future prospects of altruism (which is not socialism Mr Scarecrow) ... in most HG societies nobody tells the best hunter to share his catch with the tribe, and nobody punishes him if he doesn't. It is just what happens out of custom; because that is what humans do, we follow customs that often develop organically.
Who besides yourself prognosticates the future on the basis of anthropology? And if you think custom is not a coercive social force you know nothing of peoples and societies, Mr. Anthropology.

[Decolonize The Left]

Man is a wolf towards other men (and women). He is prey to other species, the planet, and others that don't belong to his tribe. That is the conclusion of evolutionary biology. This is why everyone experiences hurt and unkindness from others. This is the ugly truth re human nature. This is why I live in a police state: coercion is at the heart of every society. Hobbes understood this. The Chinese Legalists understood this. This is why every revolution only births repressive regimes. Under socialism there is no recognition of individual rights and thus why command type economies become oppressive. This is why no socialist economy has ever -- and could not -- work in practice..

Man is not a wolf, but a dinosaur shrouded in the strewn carcasses of his enemies. Tribes are tribulations put in time and space for the survival of dino-man in the absence of the absolute.

Hobbes understood the Leviathan was not his book but a bundle of boundaries held forth beneath the falling sun. It is only through evolutionary science that we see the sociology which becomes of tomorrow.

I ask you - sir - why is it that no socialist economy could truly understand the trivial aspects of temporarily and instead place it under the heading of the future?!

Riddle me this and I will riddle you a round of reason!

Riddle me that and I will reason your riddle a new round!

Your move, douche.

- August

[Revolution starts with U]

Who besides yourself prognosticates the future on the basis of anthropology? And if you think custom is not a coercive social force you know nothing of peoples and societies, Mr. Anthropology.
This guy does


Man is a wolf towards other men (and women). He is prey to other species, the planet, and others that don't belong to his tribe. That is the conclusion of evolutionary biology. This is why everyone experiences hurt and unkindness from others. This is the ugly truth re human nature. This is why I live in a police state: coercion is at the heart of every society. Hobbes understood this. The Chinese Legalists understood this. This is why every revolution only births repressive regimes. Under socialism there is no recognition of individual rights and thus why command type economies become oppressive. This is why no socialist economy has ever -- and could not -- work in practice..

So exactly how is music coercive, Mr change my mind twice a year?

[Crux]

Please speak to me about all those societies in which coercion of the individual in some form or other did not exist.

Unlike the study of anthropology from the study of Mises one might actually learn something about the prospects of a future socialist economy -- but that isn't your concern, is it?
I'm sorry, wolfie, that's just not true. More like: :laugh::laugh: :laugh: