I no longer blame selfish people

[Elysian]

I've seen with my own eyes what happened to two very different people in my city. One of them, despite excellent qualifications and job prospects, decided to work with the poor in the slums of India, with little or no pay. He now has basic necessities, nothing more, no success or wealth or status, no achievements to his name except that he helped a lot of people. He is constantly mocked at, his relatives and so-called friends never fail to point to this 'failures' on a worldly level, that he barely has a place to stay, no bank account, no friends, no status, nothing. He literally gave up everything to serve the poor, and what did he get in return? Insults and humiliation ... from so-called well-wishers.

Second story: a practical guy - one of his relatives - used the little qualification he had, got in touch with the right ppl, made a lot of money, helps no one, and now he's a hero for contributing virtually nothing. People love him, praise him as if he'd invented a cure for AIDS.

After witnessing all this, I now fully understand why people are mad after money and success. They feel that the world won't respect them, honor them, if they don't have huge bank accounts and drive around in fancy cars. So they become greedy and selfish, if only to win the respect and admiration of people. After all, no one wants to be treated like a loser and, if doing the right thing would make them losers, then they'd rather opt for another way: greed.

Conclusion: I no longer blame selfish people. The world doesn't deserve any better.

[Franz Fanonipants]

This is the issue with your choice of Calvinism comrade. It is literally the worship of worldly, capitalistic success.

[danyboy27]

Most people are not selfish, they just do what they have to in order to stay alive, that why there is not much people ready to loose everything to help sick people in India.

If there would be new rules tomorow requiring people to kill a living being per day to stay alive, most people would do it even tho its not really pleasant.

Human work together and help eachother, the only thing that limit it in today world is capitalism.

[artanis17]

Ahhh the same corrupted human beings dilemma again :D

We will make losers out of rich people ! Like Jesus said those who laugh today will whine tomorrow !! :D

[Leftsolidarity]

What shit

[dodger]

Elysian, few are looking for or would welcome the cold hand of charity. I care about other people as much as they care about me. You figure. Try a trip to the Zoo, take a flask and plenty of sandwiches, park yourself on a bench by the primates. Watch them for a morning or an afternoon. promise you that yer won't get bored. If they are kept in natural surroundings, they will hold up a mirror to yourself. Perhaps even a family member or a school chum. Their behaviour will be as familiar as a school day or family social gathering or a parents day at work or club. Give yourself a day off from Revleft.

Have a nice day.

[MotherCossack]

Conclusion: I no longer blame selfish people. The world doesn't deserve any better.
the world is a lovely place. it is us that do not deserve the world.
without us the world would do very well....thankyou...
without the world... we would be f**ked.

i imagine you mean humanity, not the world.
which is the same as saying... 'we are the world.....'
which is a bit insulting to innocent worlds and other species that share said world. such arrogance is typical of our species...

but i am being pedantic and its just the sort of thing i'd say.
except that we are the world, collectively.
i think that it all depends on what position each of us occupys.
what i mean is the higher up you are socially, the higher your status and the bigger your rewards then the more responsibility you should take for the current health of the world.
so... if you have nothing ... then you are innocent.
from there the more you have the more you owe and the more responsibility you should take.

in a nutshell... thats how this set-up [our world] is s'posed to work [i think]
but it clearly doesnt work.... that's why there is such perversely unfair distribution of everything, all over the place.

so dont say hey lets all grab what we can.... hell... there's not enough to go around remember?
someone [lots of them] has to lose... for some to win
it is crap .
maybe you are right after all....
i have to go.. my little mini- me is snoring....

[Koba1917]

Because I'm from the United States I can really only give a good perspective in my current Country. But I think John Steinbeck had it right AND is still more so right today when he said "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” Americans latch onto this idea that 'everyone can succeed' and feel they live in a classless society (though I would say this is becoming less and less true with Occupy and the failing economy). So whenever someone doesn't follow the social normality that is seen in the media in the US they are seen as an outcast.


After witnessing all this, I now fully understand why people are mad after money and success. They feel that the world won't respect them, honor them, if they don't have huge bank accounts and drive around in fancy cars. So they become greedy and selfish, if only to win the respect and admiration of people. After all, no one wants to be treated like a loser and, if doing the right thing would make them losers, then they'd rather opt for another way: greed.

I think you're correct to a degree. But don't forget Capitalism is a system that will always produce Greed because of its competitive nature. Though it is true that a Social Alienation would most likely come out of someone that doesn't follow the Social norm of 'striving for the Gold' or 'making it big'.

[28350]

the party will be composed of selfish people

[RedAtheist]

Conclusion: I no longer blame selfish people. The world doesn't deserve any better.

In other words the poster is saying this. I don't blame a few people for the problems in the world. I blame everybody (or most people) for them. How is that any better?

Besides being a socialist is not about making yourself poor so you can take care of poor people. It is about empowering poor people to take control of their society. It is the masses who will ultimately transform society, not a few selfless people. The people leading the struggle will get the credit they deserve, but no more, for they will not be able to do much without the active involvement of ordinary people.

I am a revolutionary socialist, not a charity worker (not that I have something against charities, I'm just more radical than they are) and I confess that a part of me thinks it would be pretty cool to go down in history as the person who led the socialist revolution in my part of the world (or at least somebody who played a leading role in it.) The one who leads the proletariat to power is in no sense a 'loser'.

[LiquidBryan]

I've actually seen similar things like this happen before. It really is unfortunate that people are conditioned to treat great people like that like crap. Despite how badly his family and friends treated him, I don't think the guy feels like he wasted his life. For one thing, I'm sure the poor people he helped appreciate everything he did. You're missing the bigger picture by saying that your friend wasted his life. If the guy's happy with what he's doing, how is it a waste?

Another thing I noticed is that you're letting your faith blind you from the issue. In a socialist country, the majority of the population wouldn't have that petty bourgeois attitude that materialism is all that matters. For those of us who live in Capitalist countries, it really isn't surprising to see people behaving that way. Clearly we know that Capitalism brings out the worst in us and that's all the more why we should destroy it forever. But if you were to walk through an impoverished neighborhood, one thing you'd notice is that the people there have sort of a mutual aid system going.

When I stayed with a friend who lives in the historically poorest neighborhood in town, I saw how devoted the community was to each other. Whenever someone needed food, people gladly shared it, even if they didn't have much themselves. All throughout America, the people who have been having their homes re-posessed have also united. If you were to ever see something like that, I bet it would change your mind about human nature. It really is an amazing and inspirational thing and thw OWS movement is the closest thing we have to a glimmer of hope.

Really though, all this biblical "humans are evil" talking points is really nonsensical. I would hope that you would put more thought into your next thread.

[ckaihatsu]

Discussions of abstractions of idealism -- 'selfishness', 'greed', 'success', 'evil' -- even 'charity', 'radicalism', and 'survival' -- are always messy and unwieldy because these terms are [1] pure, ideal abstractions, [2] can be meant in a positive-sided *or* negative-sided way, and [3] are usually discussed across a *variety of socio-political contexts*, often without those contexts even being specified upfront.

So, right off the top of my head, I'm seeing at least six "dimensions" of latitude just for discussing something as seemingly simple as 'selfishness' -- [1] Are we talking about it in the *abstract* sense, or [1] as a real, *material* varying *quality* of someone's personality, or even as a *desirable trait*, like a personal goal -- ?

[2] Is it *good* in the abstract and/or ideal-world and/or real-world, or is it [2] *bad* in the abstract and/or ideal-world and/or real-world?

[3] Are we talking about the trait in an *ideal* way, or [3] generically, *regardless* of historical time and socio-political context, or [3] is it in the here-and-now real-world *or* [3] in a feasibly possible *future* real-world?





After witnessing all this, I now fully understand why people are mad after money and success. They feel that the world won't respect them, honor them, if they don't have huge bank accounts and drive around in fancy cars. So they become greedy and selfish, if only to win the respect and admiration of people. After all, no one wants to be treated like a loser and, if doing the right thing would make them losers, then they'd rather opt for another way: greed.

Conclusion: I no longer blame selfish people. The world doesn't deserve any better.


So perhaps it's somewhat *understandable* if people see the world as being barbaric and decide to be barbarians in it, if only to keep pace with it -- that's *one interpretation* of 'selfishness', and of the world, in a simple, all-in-one concept.





Most people are not selfish, they just do what they have to in order to stay alive




If there would be new rules tomorow requiring people to kill a living being per day to stay alive, most people would do it even tho its not really pleasant.


Here, perhaps, is a scenario where 'selfishness' is not about *breaking the rules*, but in *conformity* to the point of barbarity.





This is the issue with your choice of Calvinism comrade. It is literally the worship of worldly, capitalistic success.


This interpretation is more about striving for an *ideal* of 'selfishness' -- 'worldly, capitalistic success'.





Really though, all this biblical "humans are evil" talking points is really nonsensical. I would hope that you would put more thought into your next thread.


And here's a reference to an ideal of so-called "human nature" -- that "humans are [generically] evil", and so 'selfishness' is just innate.





I am a revolutionary socialist, not a charity worker (not that I have something against charities, I'm just more radical than they are)


Even 'charity' lends itself to an *ideal* -- that many people, and even humanity, will be better off given temporary band-aids than without, while 'radicalism' is idealism about how to change the existing government.

Only *revolutionaries* use rationality to its fullest extent to examine the state of the world, and how it could realistically be, in a thorough *materialist* sense -- that's why the conclusion winds up at class struggle and the need for revolution, ultimately.