The bombings in Istanbul

[Scottish_Militant]

On November 20, two explosions devastated the offices of HSBC, a British-based bank, and the British consulate in a busy part of Istanbul. At least 25 people were reported to have been killed, and 400 were wounded. The blasts came only a few days after suicide bombers had struck two of the city's oldest synagogues, Neve Shalom and Beth Israel. In those two attacks, perpetrated on the Jewish sabbath, some 25 people died, six of them Jews and the rest Turkish Muslim passers-by, while over 300 people were injured.

The November 20 attacks may have been the work of suicide bombers, either of al-Qaeda, or of Turkish groups liked with it. The attack was claimed both by a local Islamic group and by an Egyptian offshoot of al-Qaeda. These actions were well-planned and carried out with ruthless efficiency and total disregard for human life. Most of the victims were ordinary Turkish people going about their daily business. The scenes of carnage published in this morning’s press show men, women and children with horrific injuries and panic-stricken people trying to help the bleeding and traumatised survivors.

Marxists utterly condemn this brutal and barbarous act of terrorism. It cannot be justified on any political grounds. It does not help the people of Iraq. It does not strike a blow against world imperialism. It will not weaken the Turkish state. On the contrary. It plays directly into the hands of the state and imperialism and helps and encourages the most reactionary wing of the US and British ruling class, providing them with the kind of excuse and alibi they need to justify their aggressive policies.

The timing of the bombing was not accidental. Presumably it was meant to coincide with George Bush’s visit to London, since the targets were British. However, these actions did nothing to harm Blair and Bush. On a day when 200,000 people were protesting against Bush on the streets of London, the terrorists succeeded in removing coverage of the massive demonstration from the front pages of all the daily papers.

Instead of answering the protests of the demonstrators, Bush and Blair were provided with a marvellous opportunity to divert public opinion away from their criminal activities in Iraq and back to the question of the so-called "war on terror". Despite their public protestations of outrage, this really suited them very well.

The British foreign secretary, Jack Straw, declared that these attacks had "all the hallmarks of international terrorism practised by al-Qaeda and associated organisations." Bush and Blair repeated all their old arguments about this being a global war of civilization and democracy against evil murderers.

But the arguments of the imperialists reek of hypocrisy. Yes, the bombing of innocent people in Istanbul was a monstrous crime. But what right do Bush, Bair and Frost have to criticise it, when they are responsible for far greater crimes? These are the men who ordered the bombing of Iraq that led to tens of thousands of civilian deaths and injuries. These are the men who are still carrying on a criminal occupation of Iraq that is causing more deaths and suffering every day. This is also terrorism - state terrorism on a vast scale directed against a whole people.

What the bombings did show was the complete hollowness of the claims of Bush and his British puppet that they are winning the war against terror. The world is now a far more dangerous place than what it was on September 11. The invasion of Iraq, far from being a blow against terrorism, has completely destabilised the Middle East - one of the main objectives of Bin Laden. Al Qaeda, which was not present in Iraq before the invasion, is now establishing a firm position there as a base for its operations. The Turkish atrocities may well be an expression of this fact. This morning’s Daily Mirror carried on its front page a photo of one of the victims of the Istanbul attack with the headline: "A safer world?"

Marxists will fight against imperialism and oppose the occupation of Iraq. But we will fight with the methods of the working class: with mass demonstrations, strikes and boycotts. We will explain to the working people of the world that their cause - the cause of socialism - requires them to fight against all manifestations of injustice and oppression, and that it is necessary to defend the rights of small oppressed peoples against the big bullies and robbers - in particular US imperialism, the most counterrevolutionary force on the planet.

We will support every step that helps to educate the masses in this sense. But we will oppose with all our strength every action that lowers the understanding of the working class and diverts it from its necessary course. Acts of individual terrorism invariably miseducate the workers and youth and lower their level of revolutionary consciousness. That is why Marxism has always rejected the tactic of individual terrorism, not for moralistic reasons but simply because it is useless and counterproductive.

In the present case, the counterrevolutionary nature of individual terrorism stands exposed in the starkest light. Whoever perpetrated these bloody acts - and their identity is still not clear - whatever their motives, they have helped the cause of reaction and imperialism both in Turkey and internationally.

Turkish police were quick to establish the identities of the two bombers. The two men, Mesut Cabuk and Gokhan Altuntas, were apparently Kurds from the south-eastern province of Bingol. The pair allegedly had links with Hizbullah, a Turkish faction that, like its Lebanese namesake, has been armed and trained in Iran.

Ironically, the group was tolerated by the authorities in the 1990s because Hizbullah militants killed hundreds of left-leaning Kurd nationalists. Here we have yet another example of the link between imperialism and Islamic terrorist organizations. Let us remind ourselves that it was the CIA that first encouraged, armed and financed al Qaeda to fight against the Russians in Afghanistan. They, and nobody else, are responsible for Bin Laden and reactionary fanatics like him.

Now the Turkish state has another excuse for carrying on their repressive policy against the Kurdish people. They will also have another reason to justify their alliance with the United States and membership of NATO.

Turkey and Israel are the main allies of the USA in the region. Turkey has close military and intelligence ties to Israel. Turkey was the first Muslim country to recognise the state of Israel. In 1996 the two signed a military co-operation agreement that allowed Israeli air-force pilots to train in Turkey. Israel is among Turkey's top suppliers of military hardware.

Tel Aviv was worried that the electoral victory of Tayyip Erdogan, who used to be a fierce critic of Israel, would damage the relationship. They need not have worried.

The attacks on synagogues help Israeli imperialism, enabling Sharon to present the opposition to the occupation of Palestinian lands as "anti-Semitism". Turkey's prime minister, called on Yitzhak Haleva the day after the synagogue attacks to pay his respects. The Turkish and Israeli foreign ministers pledged jointly to work to fight terrorism, and thousands of Turks attended this week's funeral to bury the Jewish dead.

All this helps to bolster the position of imperialism in the Middle East. It brings Turkey closer to America and Israel. It pushes the people behind reaction. It discredits the national liberation struggle. It undermines and weakens the mass anti-war movement worldwide. The counterrevolutionary nature of terrorism is clear for all to see.

What is required is a worldwide anti-imperialist and anti-capitalist front. Imperialism can never be defeated by terrorist acts. Only a mass movement of the working class, poor peasants and youth can overthrow it and lead to the creation of a socialist world order in which monstrosities such as this will be only a bad dream of the past.

London, November 21, 2003.

[FistFullOfSteel]

yeah i know...too bad. :( R.I.P all who died

[The Children of the Revolution]

Impressive article, well written.

However, a couple of points to raise...

Terrorism, in my opinion, is a last resort. In this case, it seems that the suicide bombings were once again the work of Al-Qaeda or of Islamic fundamentalists. But can one really blame them? The international community seems to have deserted the Palestinians in favour of the damned Zionists and their criminal leader Sharon. The U.N. has condemned the Israeli behaviour - to no avail. (The politicians say one thing, but their actions betray their true beliefs) Western culture is invading the traditional Islamic strongholds of the Middle East. Negotiation is increasingly futile.

In these circumstances, terrorism is one of the few actions remaining. I do not support this terrorism; equally though, I condemn the international imperialism which has created it. Unfortunately though, as you said, these actions will play into the hands of those same Imperialist dogs. And all the while, it is the oppressed which suffer the most...

Mass strikes would be more effective in a highly industrialised country, or if the world were united. However, as capitalism has spread, so the market for exploitation has grown. Strikes in the Middle East would accomplish very little - the West would simply move elsewhere for its goods. Terrorism, however barbaric, sadly remains the only option for oppressed peoples worldwide...

[Kez]

"Strikes in the Middle East would accomplish very little - the West would simply move elsewhere for its goods. Terrorism, however barbaric, sadly remains the only option for oppressed peoples worldwide... "

With oil workers striking, the whole western world would freeze. They arent gonna move without a struggle, as they WANT these markets to plunder with goods. as they WANT to take advantage of the cheap labour.

Terrorism is the last resort of those who know no better, i for one would never turn to individul terrorism, my first and last resort is to organise for the masses to overthrow the beast which we hate with a fervour, i cannot do anythin on my own, however if we all fight it together, capitalism has no hope.

[Scottish_Militant]

Yes, I don't really see blowing up working class people as a 'last resort' or any resort for that matter...

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by The Children of the [email protected] 21 2003, 08:14 PM
Impressive article, well written.

However, a couple of points to raise...

Terrorism, in my opinion, is a last resort. In this case, it seems that the suicide bombings were once again the work of Al-Qaeda or of Islamic fundamentalists. But can one really blame them? The international community seems to have deserted the Palestinians in favour of the damned Zionists and their criminal leader Sharon. The U.N. has condemned the Israeli behaviour - to no avail. (The politicians say one thing, but their actions betray their true beliefs) Western culture is invading the traditional Islamic strongholds of the Middle East. Negotiation is increasingly futile.

In these circumstances, terrorism is one of the few actions remaining. I do not support this terrorism; equally though, I condemn the international imperialism which has created it. Unfortunately though, as you said, these actions will play into the hands of those same Imperialist dogs. And all the while, it is the oppressed which suffer the most...

Mass strikes would be more effective in a highly industrialised country, or if the world were united. However, as capitalism has spread, so the market for exploitation has grown. Strikes in the Middle East would accomplish very little - the West would simply move elsewhere for its goods. Terrorism, however barbaric, sadly remains the only option for oppressed peoples worldwide...
err... Al-Qaeda is nothing to do with the crisis in Palestine. I believe that Osama Bin laden dislikes the US because they have large influence and a lot of people in Saudi Arabia, which is considered holy. Which is why he "fights". The Palestinian conflict is nothing more than an excuse to attack people in the west. As to your western culture argument, the west has been in the middle east for decades, Palestine was part of the British Empire for years before the current conflicts... and certainly before Bin Laden was around.

No the real answer is that these people [religious terrorists] are sick racists, who have been indoctronated to hate the west from birth, this is shown by the fact that the terrorists are always young people, the Rabbies (the one's who teach Jihad etc) are never found with explosives straped to their chests. After 9/11 i'm sure in America the exact same thing will be happening to US kids. The sad thing is that people like Bin Laden have started a war which they can never win, and I dont think that the USA will pull any punches to remove these terrorits from now on.

[Reuben]

very good article needed to be said



But can one really blame them? The international community seems to have deserted the Palestinians in favour of the damned Zionists and their criminal leader Sharon. The U.N. has condemned the Israeli behaviour - to no avail. (The politicians say one thing, but their actions betray their true beliefs) Western culture is invading the traditional Islamic strongholds of the Middle East. Negotiation is increasingly futile.


I think i is disgusting and illogical to tru and blame legitimise both the attacks on consulate (with wturned in fact into a butchering of civilians) and the anti-semitic mass murder carried out against a minority community in turkey. The strike against synagogues was not a 'last resort' to resist sharon. It was not directed against isrealies or the israeli government,. It was directed against a minority community whose ethnicity happens to be that of the Israeli state. To put the argument which ou have put is just as idiotic and despicable as if a black church was bombed and it was claimed to be a last resort against Mugabe.

The left must make an unqualified rejection of the feudalistic chauvanism which has characterised the terror attacks.

[flayer2]

The Synagog bombing was senseless. It served their cause no purpose.

[Hate Is Art]

terrorism has no purpose, any cause which resorts to butchering innocents and civilians, women and children should get no support.

peaceful resistance and armed revolution are the way, look at people like gandhi and che, they achieved their goals with out resorting to killing civilians.

[flayer2]

The attackers were kurds. Why would kurds bomb a synagog?

[redstar2000]

Has anyone considered that there may have been two different groups involved?

Targeting a British bank and the British consulate suggests a rather more secular outlook than targeting two synagogues.

Be that as it may, what the article--reads like a press release from a Trotskyist party, by the way--seems to find it difficult to understand is that there are going to be a lot more of these events.

There is no serious working class opposition to imperialism yet...and until that happens, the desperately oppressed in the Muslim world are going to continue to join the "terrorists".

It's their only option at this point.

Meanwhile, there's this...


No, the real answer is that these people [religious terrorists] are sick racists, who have been indoctrinated to hate the west from birth; this is shown by the fact that the terrorists are always young people, the Rabbies [sic] (the ones who teach Jihad etc) are never found with explosives strapped to their chests. After 9/11 I'm sure in America the exact same thing will be happening to US kids. The sad thing is that people like Bin Laden have started a war which they can never win, and I don't think that the USA will pull any punches to remove these terrorists from now on.

Want to guess at the meaning of Enema's incoherent babble?

Terrorists are "sick racists"? Indeed?

They have been "indoctrinated from birth" to "hate the west"? They don't have any objective reasons to do that? Not even one?

And then there's the reference to "Rabbies"...which is rather strange since rabbis are Jewish teachers (not priests, by the way). The world is filled with marvels...to the ignorant.

The reference to kids in the U.S. is unclear...unless he's suggesting that they will become suicide bombers attacking Muslim targets. That would be "interesting" to see.

The last sentence is most revealing, if I understand it correctly: "I don't think that the USA will pull any punches to remove these terrorists from now on."

When has the USA ever "pulled any punches" against anyone perceived as its enemy?

And why do I get the feeling that he's cheering on the USA?

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[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 04:09 PM
Has anyone considered that there may have been two different groups involved?

Targeting a British bank and the British consulate suggests a rather more secular outlook than targeting two synagogues.

Be that as it may, what the article--reads like a press release from a Trotskyist party, by the way--seems to find it difficult to understand is that there are going to be a lot more of these events.

There is no serious working class opposition to imperialism yet...and until that happens, the desperately oppressed in the Muslim world are going to continue to join the "terrorists".

It's their only option at this point.

Meanwhile, there's this...


No, the real answer is that these people [religious terrorists] are sick racists, who have been indoctrinated to hate the west from birth; this is shown by the fact that the terrorists are always young people, the Rabbies [sic] (the ones who teach Jihad etc) are never found with explosives strapped to their chests. After 9/11 I'm sure in America the exact same thing will be happening to US kids. The sad thing is that people like Bin Laden have started a war which they can never win, and I don't think that the USA will pull any punches to remove these terrorists from now on.

Want to guess at the meaning of Enema's incoherent babble?

Terrorists are "sick racists"? Indeed?

They have been "indoctrinated from birth" to "hate the west"? They don't have any objective reasons to do that? Not even one?

And then there's the reference to "Rabbies"...which is rather strange since rabbis are Jewish teachers (not priests, by the way). The world is filled with marvels...to the ignorant.

The reference to kids in the U.S. is unclear...unless he's suggesting that they will become suicide bombers attacking Muslim targets. That would be "interesting" to see.

The last sentence is most revealing, if I understand it correctly: "I don't think that the USA will pull any punches to remove these terrorists from now on."

When has the USA ever "pulled any punches" against anyone perceived as its enemy?

And why do I get the feeling that he's cheering on the USA?

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They have been "indoctrinated from birth" to "hate the west"? They don't have any objective reasons to do that? Not even one?

Thats not the issue, i'm sure they do have their reasons, but I doubt that they would feal the need to blow them selves up, and kill a dozen or so more with them, I doubt that without some serious indoctrination and brain washing would such actions take place.

Terrorists are "sick racists"? Indeed?

Well they do have this thing about hating Jews and bombing their place of worship.

And then there's the reference to "Rabbies"...which is rather strange since rabbis are Jewish teachers (not priests, by the way).

Ahh well I made an error... such is life. Reminds me of the time that you claimed that Owen was a Lord... or when you denied the effects of smoking. For the record I meant Mulla's... but wrote the wrong thing. Or would you prefer Cleric?

The reference to kids in the U.S. is unclear...unless he's suggesting that they will become suicide bombers attacking Muslim targets. That would be "interesting" to see.

I was rather thinking that Muslims in the US would find themselves the object of hate during race riots etc.

When has the USA ever "pulled any punches" against anyone perceived as its enemy?

well they have not resorted to the use of chem/bio weapons to scilence the Iraq resistance yet have they?

And why do I get the feeling that he's cheering on the USA?

because your paranoid... among other things.

[IPkurd]

flayer2

i heard the attacker came from bingol mostly kurdish area, can you give a link that states this please
thanks

and if they were kurds they came from ultra-extrem islamist group so they have a reason to bomb syngogs*




some old turkish man on TV said this about the bombings "this is the work of the murderer sharon that american pimp" god that was funny :lol: :lol: :lol:

[RaveRDave]

"With oil workers striking, the whole western world would freeze. They arent gonna move without a struggle, as they WANT these markets to plunder with goods. as they WANT to take advantage of the cheap labour."

Neglecting the fact that just as much imported oil in the United States comes from countries like Venezuela, Mexico, and Georgia...

[Kez]

"Neglecting the fact that just as much imported oil in the United States comes from countries like Venezuela, Mexico, and Georgia..."

hmmm, yes, had you been vaguely aware of whats going on in the world u'd realise that venuezuela is controled by the anti american Chavez. Secondly, Georgia doesnt have a drop of fucking oil in it. And i doubt mexico is the worlds largest oil producer...

As for redstar....
ay ay ay....

where is the lack of understanding that there will be a lot more of these events???

"There is no serious working class opposition to imperialism yet...and until that happens, the desperately oppressed in the Muslim world are going to continue to join the "terrorists"."
-where does the article state otherwise???

daer me...

[RaveRDave]

Hugo Chavez may be anti-American, but he is pro-money, as well as a member of OPEC. OPEC, while not overtly anti-American, has no love for the United States, and loves to raise prices and lower refined quanities of oil to suit their money-grubbing needs. Of course, Mexico is not the world's largest oil producer(and then again, neither is Iraq), HOWEVER, Georgia(not the state, you idiot; the country on the Caucasus range in Asia, a former Soviet republic), has about as much oil as Iraq, even if much of it is not currently tappable by the native economy. Thanks.

[Scottish_Militant]

Redstar is an ultra-left, so he will probibly claim terrorism is "progressive" or something. The working class don't need terrorist "martyrs" to destroy capitalism, these guys do the oposite, they strengthen it. Capitalism can only be destroyed by the working class itself.

[redstar2000]

Redstar is an ultra-left, so he will probably claim terrorism is "progressive" or something.

Yeah, and if he hasn't done it yet, you can always "predict" that "someday" he'll do it. :lol:

Tell me, you noble heirs of Trotsky, since there is little or no secular resistance to U.S. imperialism in the Middle East, is it your view that the U.S. "should" successfully "wipe out" the Muslim "terrorists"? I already know Enema's answer, what's yours?

Is the main enemy of the oppressed and exploited people of the world today U.S. imperialism--along with, of course, lackey states like the U.K., Spain, etc.--or is it Muslim "terrorists"?

And if it is the former, why is it necessary to even comment on the latter?

Technically, you're quite correct; terrorism as a method of working class revolution doesn't work and is therefore irrelevant.

But why at this time do you wish to make a point of this? Workers in the advanced capitalist countries are not "turning towards terrorism" and are, as we all know, very unlikely to do so.

It almost gives the impression that your group's statement was really directed to "your own" bourgeoisie...as if you were reassuring them that "we're not terrorists, oh no, not us, no way, absolutely not, never, never, never...!"

It won't help, you know. If they decide to label your group "terrorist", your protestations of innocence will carry no weight with them at all.

To a ruling class, all serious opposition is either "terrorist" or "potentially terrorist".

Here's an Enema gem that I overlooked...


The sad thing is that people like Bin Laden have started a war which they can never win...

Not exactly. The war was started by British and French imperialism back in 1919, when they sliced up the Middle East like a roasted Turkey (:D) at Versailles. It's been going on ever since.

As to "who will win", let us take the wisdom of "holy scripture" into account...


11 And the king of Israel answered and said, Tell him, Let not him that girdeth on his armor boast himself as he that putteth it off. 1 Kings 20


We shall have to wait and see.

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[flayer2]

I didn't post the article- I have no idea where it links to.


and yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that fat ass had something to do with it.

[mentalbunny]

The son of the British consul who died goes to my school so those attacks are very close to home here.

I blame Bush and his cronies for making the situation worse.

[Scottish_Militant]

Redstar with his usual attempts to put words in peoples mouths, of course I do not support the US/UK government etc, they created these people in the first place. I support the working class, they are the only ones who can fight terrorism - government terrorism and religious reactionary terrorism.

We 'Trots' support the building of revolutionary socialist movements in all areas of the world, our comrades in every country are participating in this as we speak. Redstar meanwhile, sit at his computer screen...plays with his fancy website etc :rolleyes:

[redstar2000]

Redstar meanwhile, sit[s] at his computer screen...plays with his fancy website, etc.

An "accusation" with which I am all too familiar.

I wonder, though, how my accusers manage to post at Che-Lives without "sitting at their computer screens"?

Do they stand up while they type their posts? Do they turn their backs to the screen while they type (sometimes I think that might be the case!)?

Very curious.

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[Scottish_Militant]

The question Redstar, is how long do we sit here. Judging by your quantity of posts and the size of them you havent budged since the late 1960s ;)

[Kez]

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 11:44 PM
Hugo Chavez may be anti-American, but he is pro-money, as well as a member of OPEC. OPEC, while not overtly anti-American, has no love for the United States, and loves to raise prices and lower refined quanities of oil to suit their money-grubbing needs. Of course, Mexico is not the world's largest oil producer(and then again, neither is Iraq), HOWEVER, Georgia(not the state, you idiot; the country on the Caucasus range in Asia, a former Soviet republic), has about as much oil as Iraq, even if much of it is not currently tappable by the native economy. Thanks.
Dont give me a lecture on Georgia please, and i really think you should know what your barking about.

Georgia does not have oil, and this is why it has such severe power cuts daily. The only oil in the country is they the Baku-Ceylan pipe-line thats being made which is a contraversial issue.

i dont appreciate being called an idiot, when the person who calls it does not have the foggiest about wtf is going on.

"and then again, neither is Iraq"
-its the 2nd or 3rd....which is a huge difference with mexico....

i actually laughed when i read your post, especially the bit where u say it has as much as iraq, thats quality stuff...

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 06:01 PM
The question Redstar, is how long do we sit here. Judging by your quantity of posts and the size of them you havent budged since the late 1960s ;)
LOL

Got you by the balls on that one RS.

:redstar2000:

[redstar2000]

Your desperation is showing, Enema. :D

As even both you and "communist"_"revolutionary" should be able to read, I joined this board on September 27, 2002.

Somewhat more recently than "the late 60s".

I'm glad to see that my efforts are appreciated, though. :lol:

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[Scottish_Militant]

8.8 posts per day, most of them pretty big posts too. Are you fat? :lol:

[Kez]

i bet he hasnt seen his penis for the last 30 years of his life....fat knacker

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 06:03 PM
Your desperation is showing, Enema. :D

As even both you and "communist"_"revolutionary" should be able to read, I joined this board on September 27, 2002.

Somewhat more recently than "the late 60s".

I'm glad to see that my efforts are appreciated, though. :lol:

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Your desperation is showing, Enema. :D

hardly, I simply find it amuzing that in all your lonnnng years of "leftism" (seems more like totalitarianism if you want to shoot criminals, etc) and achived a big fat Zero. Well done you! ;)

Sounds like you should be in congress.

8.8 posts per day, most of them pretty big posts too. Are you fat?

yeah I have 8.8 posts a day average... dont knock it. :D

Looks like we have more than mutual dislike in common, RS.

:redstar2000:

[redstar2000]

Are you fat?

Such profound questions! :lol:

Very well, I am six feet tall and weigh about 190 pounds. I am rather thick around the middle, though...a common pattern for aging males.


I simply find it amusing that in all your lonnnng years of "leftism" (seems more like totalitarianism if you want to shoot criminals, etc) and achieved a big fat Zero. Well done you!

Yes, I think it's pretty unlikely that there will ever be a "Redstar2000-Lives" message board, much less t-shirts with my picture on them.

But when you stop and think of it, none of us are apt to be remembered in a thousand years...not even Che.

We can only do "the best we can"...and see how things turn out.

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[kylie]

Marxists will fight against imperialism and oppose the occupation of Iraq. But we will fight with the methods of the working class: with mass demonstrations, strikes and boycotts. We will explain to the working people of the world that their cause - the cause of socialism - requires them to fight against all manifestations of injustice and oppression, and that it is necessary to defend the rights of small oppressed peoples against the big bullies and robbers - in particular US imperialism, the most counterrevolutionary force on the planet.
You, or whoever wrote that, fails to differentiate between civilian and military targets. It seems to be saying that Marxists should oppose all terrorism, while terrorism against military buildings or personel can be helpful to fighting imperialism. For example the attacks on US and UK soldiers in Iraq, the bombings of the US embassies in a few countries now i believe(i've forgotten what ones in particular), and the Intifada itself.
Are you saying that you oppose these actions? And how about vietnam. Do you think that resistance to US imperialism would have been more successful there if they had just sat around in their homes all day, or gathered in towns? That would have been very conveniant for the US.

It undermines and weakens the mass anti-war movement worldwide.
It undermines itself enough, when it invites people like Charles Kenedy and Tony Benn to speak.

The attacks on synagogues help Israeli imperialism, enabling Sharon to present the opposition to the occupation of Palestinian lands as "anti-Semitism".
Do you really think that what is happening in Palestine would be any different if these attacks in Turkey had not happened? I certainly don't. It will be used as another excuse, but then theres already many for the ruling class to use, and i'm sure if there wasn't an excuse for a particular action they wanted to take, they could always just make one up.

. Strikes in the Middle East would accomplish very little - the West would simply move elsewhere for its goods. Terrorism, however barbaric, sadly remains the only option for oppressed peoples worldwide...
I agree, if there was to be a mass pacifist movement in Palestine, i have little faith in the Isrealis ability to restrain themselves. It would be a massacre, as they well know the western media would ignore it, and that nearby countries could provide little assistance to the Palestinians. They could get away with it, for sure.


No the real answer is that these people [religious terrorists] are sick racists, who have been indoctronated to hate the west from birth, this is shown by the fact that the terrorists are always young people, the Rabbies (the one's who teach Jihad etc) are never found with explosives straped to their chests
Thats the kind of thing i would expect to hear from a tabloid newspaper.

but I doubt that they would feal the need to blow them selves up, and kill a dozen or so more with them, I doubt that without some serious indoctrination and brain washing would such actions take place.
Have you never got pissed off when reading about what the west is doing over there? Well imagine actually being there then, and these kind of events happening on a regular basis. I can totally understand how living in such conditions and oppression could drive someone to becoming a suicide bomber.


Well they do have this thing about hating Jews and bombing their place of worship.
Islamic fundamentalists, seeing what the Jewish fundamentalists Isreal are doing, are sure to see the religion in general as its enemy and attack it wherever. But i disagree that this is the view of all of those who take direct action in the middle-east.

well they have not resorted to the use of chem/bio weapons to scilence the Iraq resistance yet have they?
Couldn't depleted uranium shells, MOAB bombs and cluster bombs be seen as weapons of mass destruction too. If the US could find a way to kill all the Iraqi resistance at once, and it meant using chemical or biological weapons, i would expect they would. Unfortunatly for them, the entire population of Iraq is in the Iraqi resistance.

We 'Trots' support the building of revolutionary socialist movements in all areas of the world, our comrades in every country are participating in this as we speak. Redstar meanwhile, sit at his computer screen...plays with his fancy website etc
Maybe this criticism would work better if you weren't yourself using the internet and a computer to level it at him.

[Scottish_Militant]

Kylie,

"civilian and military targets"

When a bus full of ordinary people in Israel is blown up by a suicide bomber is that a 'military' target or a 'civilian' one? Is it in any way progressive to 'liberating' anyone?

"It seems to be saying that Marxists should oppose all terrorism"

Marxists oppose individual terrorism because our strength is in numbers, in the masses. We don't need 'heroes' and 'martyrs' to blow things up 'for us'

I am certainly no pacifist, but it is quite clear to me that individual terrorism is counter productive. Those who are for it have little or no faith in the masses, and are therefore anti-working class.

"I agree, if there was to be a mass pacifist movement in Palestine, i have little faith in the Isrealis ability to restrain themselves"

No one is asking for a pacifist movement, what is needed is a mass movement of workers (from Israel and Palestine) united by their class, the working class, and armed with a genuine revolutionary socialist programme.