making girls and boys into girls and boys

[MotherCossack]

does anyone fancy a discussion about whether boys and girls are born as such, or are they made by society and/or parental influences?

[MotherCossack]

i'll start... i have one boy and three girls.
in my experience, we are born with pretty much most of the girl boy stuff already programmed in ready to be activated by any one of trillions of triggers that exist everywhere.
it is another example of the stupenderosity, the magnificentality, the awesomosity, the gloriama of LIFE, and especially our own human life.
as living beings admit it, we are pretty special...the bit where we reproduce and come up with more little ones just like us, about half girls and the rest boys.... how clever is that...?
and generally speaking all the bits are there that each needs to carry the thing on...

or am i completely bonkers in the nut?

[MotherCossack]

for example:
i never encouraged the introduction of guns into the young kernal's reportoire of play things, in fact i dissapproved firmly and would not allow them anywhere near him.
yet he , despite this, soon found a way.... by making a huge and colourful one out of lego as soon as he had the requisite blocks.
in the end i gave up worrying about such matters.

[¿Que?]

for example:
i never encouraged the introduction of guns into the young kernal's reportoire of play things, in fact i dissapproved firmly and would not allow them anywhere near him.
yet he , despite this, soon found a way.... by making a huge and colourful one out of lego as soon as he had the requisite blocks.
in the end i gave up worrying about suh matters.
But you make the mistake that society is limited to the parents. A lot of things have been influencing the kernel, from before he has even the capacity to understand what's going on. A lot of that stuff must have nothing to do with parents. IN fact, some of those things refute what parents suggest.

To say we are programmed as girls or boys is reductionist and false according to everything I've been taught. It's not an easy question to answer. There are even people on this board who would argue that thesis. As for me, the only correct answer is that the question is invalid, or rather, how much is preprogrammed and how much isn't. I'd say a lot of what passes for boy, man, masculine etc with the exception of biological male (unless you are some sort of Butlerist) is the result of social conditioning.

Think about it. There is no innate attraction to guns by males, mostly because people lived for thousands of years without guns. In fact, go far enough, and the human animal will freak the fuck out by the act of pulling a gun trigger (think the loud noise). Maybe males have an attraction to weapomns, because of high testorone levels and aggression correlated, but that is a tenuous connection to actually being into guns because of higher testosterone, no?

[MotherCossack]

i dont necessarily disagree with what you have said... although bottom line is ..boys do like guns...sorry...
but as a parent of both a boy and girls it would be almost impossible not to be struck by the natural differences in what they are like and what they like.

i confess i had very different views before becoming a parent..... views that sat more comfortably alongside my radical political beliefs.....
but, as one who has always been proud of her honesty and self awareness, i was forced to give up some of my cosy logical theories...
there is no getting away from it... .
my daughters have never seen me apply make-up. i have none and have never bought or been given any....
yet my three daughters, for example, seem to know exactly what it is for and how to put it on...and have done so since about 3years old!
i find it shocking! not in an awful way more a wierd way!
i should add that this predated them going to school/nursery and having much contact at all with their peers.
i would have expected them to be free of all that for a bit longer...but gave up worrying... after all i had done my best not to present them with sexual stereotypes at my end.

these are just my observations and instincts, which may be of some interest.

[Comrade J]

i dont necessarily disagree with what you have said... although bottom line is ..boys do like guns...sorry...
but as a parent of both a boy and girls it would be almost impossible not to be struck by the natural differences in what they are like and what they like.

i confess i had very different views before becoming a parent..... views that sat more comfortably alongside my radical political beliefs.....
but, as one who has always been proud of her honesty and self awareness, i was forced to give up some of my cosy logical theories...
there is no getting away from it... .
my daughters have never seen me apply make-up. i have none and have never bought or been given any....
yet my three daughters, for example, seem to know exactly what it is for and how to put it on...and have done so since about 3years old!
i find it shocking! not in an awful way more a wierd way!
i should add that this predated them going to school/nursery and having much contact at all with their peers.
i would have expected them to be free of all that for a bit longer...but gave up worrying... after all i had done my best not to present them with sexual stereotypes at my end.

these are just my observations and instincts, which may be of some interest.

And do your daughters live in a sealed room without access to other people, television, books and magazines? Of course not. As Que has said, there are other factors besides parental influence that will make your lad want to play with a gun, and your girls put on makeup.

Are you really suggesting that some innate, genetic makeup makes your girls know exactly what makeup is and exactly how to apply it?

[ColonelCossack]

I disagree, mothercossack.

For a start, I was never all that interested in guns.

Also, if you never exposed me to guns etc.- then why (according to you) did I start to show an interest in them? The same goes for the three sistercossacks. If You never told us about them, it must have come from some external influence, probably the trillions spent on advertising yearly.

Liking guns or makeup is not genetic.

However, why was I (as a boy) more inclined towards things like guns, and my sisters (as girls) felt more inclined to things like makeup? That inclination- or disinclination- is biological.

[MotherCossack]

of course i am fully aware of the huge monstrous machine that exists the clutches of which non of us can hope to avoid.

Awesome in it's awefulness it sucks us up, chews us to a pulp, swallows, digests and eventually spits us out. ready to live our lives... fit for purpose... supposedly.
Of course none of us has any idea the extent of the damage, or how comprehensively altered we all are... because nobody escapes it.
So, yes, i am aware that we live in a world that is as close to hell as it is possible to be bearing in mind that it is all of our own making.
Did you really think that i was under the illusion that i was some kind of jolly mummy with a cute little selection of boys in plus-twos with toy guns and girls in pretty dresses with dollies and powder puffs. all enjoying glasses of ginger beer and cookies in the garden at a party thrown by enid blyton and chum,s?
of course life aint like that [thank f--k].
In fact considering all the shite that my kids get fed in the name of society, i think it is a miracle that they are still human at all.
And i think it is worth celebrating that they are born with an awareness of what and who they are. it is just apparent at the start and as they grow it emerges. maybe using their sex to illustrate that was a mistake, after all we are all people... although i do think that whatever sex you do happen to be has a significant influence on the person you become.
[if you have not had children i anticipate that some of this might make less sense... but if you have... surely you get it?]

[MotherCossack]

I disagree, mothercossack.

For a start, I was never all that interested in guns.

Also, if you never exposed me to guns etc.- then why (according to you) did I start to show an interest in them? The same goes for the three sistercossacks. If You never told us about them, it must have come from some external influence, probably the trillions spent on advertising yearly.

hell no, son....if you had any idea how many rows i had with dear granny and granddad cossack on this very topic ...
yes, son i was of the school of thought that believed 1 gun was a gun too many.

[Nox]

People are born with a certain gender and sexuality. Gays are born gay and heterosexuals are botn heterosexual.

Sometimes the sexuality doesn't match the gender, which is why some people change genders.

It's all down to genetics, personal decision/social environment has NOTHING to do with it

[Landsharks eat metal]

People are born with a certain gender and sexuality. Gays are born gay and heterosexuals are botn heterosexual.

Sometimes the sexuality doesn't match the gender, which is why some people change genders.

It's all down to genetics, personal decision/social environment has NOTHING to do with it
You're getting sexuality and sex confused. My sexuality is bisexual, my gender identity is male, and my sex is female. All three are separate. (Except I'm hoping to eventually get the two mismatched ones to match.)

What you're saying is pretty much right. I was definitely not raised as male, society doesn't treat me as male, but that didn't change anything. Society tried to teach me certain "feminine" behaviors, and I'm aware that some of my behaviors are still seen as "feminine", but that doesn't make me a girl.

[¿Que?]

i dont necessarily disagree with what you have said... although bottom line is ..boys do like guns...sorry...
but as a parent of both a boy and girls it would be almost impossible not to be struck by the natural differences in what they are like and what they like.

i confess i had very different views before becoming a parent..... views that sat more comfortably alongside my radical political beliefs.....
but, as one who has always been proud of her honesty and self awareness, i was forced to give up some of my cosy logical theories...
there is no getting away from it... .
my daughters have never seen me apply make-up. i have none and have never bought or been given any....
yet my three daughters, for example, seem to know exactly what it is for and how to put it on...and have done so since about 3years old!
i find it shocking! not in an awful way more a wierd way!
i should add that this predated them going to school/nursery and having much contact at all with their peers.
i would have expected them to be free of all that for a bit longer...but gave up worrying... after all i had done my best not to present them with sexual stereotypes at my end.

these are just my observations and instincts, which may be of some interest.
I don't necessarily agree. In fact, when you look at statistics, you might find a large number of boys that are not even interested in guns. In any case, it does have to do social and cultural context is what I'm saying.

And It's not just "nasty, evil" society. My radical views compensates for society by positing one in which social influences produce conscious individuals ready to work for the common good. We cannot escape social influences, even in communism, although they will be more beneficial for individuals and society as a whole. You might find in such a society that gender roles have been completely reconfigured, should they exist at all.

Of course my last assertion can't be proven, but it makes sense because most of what we assume to be natural differences are based on a mythology about how men and women have been throughout time. When in fact, is has been shown for example, that the whole man hunter, woman gatherer thesis has been proven false, to give just one example.


A vast amount of ethnographic and archaeological evidence demonstrates that the sexual division of labor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_of_labor) in which men hunt and women gather wild fruits and vegetables is an uncommon phenomenon among hunter-gatherers worldwide. Although most of the gathering is usually done by women, a society in which men completely abstained from gathering easily available plants has yet to be found. Generally women hunt the majority of the small game while men hunt the majority of the large and dangerous game, but there are quite a few documented exceptions to this general pattern. A study done on the Aeta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeta) people of the Philippines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines) states: "About 85% of Philippine Aeta women hunt, and they hunt the same quarry as men. Aeta women hunt in groups and with dogs, and have a 31% success rate as opposed to 17% for men. Their rates are even better when they combine forces with men: mixed hunting groups have a full 41% success rate among the Aeta."[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer#cite_note-Dahlberg-16)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer

[Agent Ducky]

Nope. Gender is mostly a social construct as I see it. No matter what parents do, the outside world still hammers these gender roles into kids quite strongly.
Personally, I'm really not into a whole lot of girly stuff at all. Fuck dresses and makeup, chick flicks, Taylor Swift, shopping for clothes, all that shit. But I'm okay with the way I was born. I just hate that society has decided that since I was born with 2 X chromosomes, I'm expected to act in a certain way. But I won't. I'll just go on downloading Photoshop brush packs that consist solely of a bunch of guns, playing video games, and wearing jeans, T-shirts, and combat boots. All the while not giving a fuck what society thinks of that. I understand though that it's much more difficult for the guys out there who are the opposite of me and like more feminine stuff. But saying "boys like guns" is like saying "girls like pink." I am a girl and I fucking hate pink. I'm sure there are guys out there who don't like guns. It's all stereotyping.

My question is just this: Why do things have to be separated into masculine and feminine? Why do we emphasize gender so damn strongly in this society? Besides the obvious reasons of patriarchy? >.<

[ColonelCossack]

Nope. Gender is mostly a social construct as I see it. No matter what parents do, the outside world still hammers these gender roles into kids quite strongly.
Personally, I'm really not into a whole lot of girly stuff at all. Fuck dresses and makeup, chick flicks, Taylor Swift, shopping for clothes, all that shit. But I'm okay with the way I was born. I just hate that society has decided that since I was born with 2 X chromosomes, I'm expected to act in a certain way. But I won't. I'll just go on downloading Photoshop brush packs that consist solely of a bunch of guns, playing video games, and wearing jeans, T-shirts, and combat boots. All the while not giving a fuck what society thinks of that. I understand though that it's much more difficult for the guys out there who are the opposite of me and like more feminine stuff. But saying "boys like guns" is like saying "girls like pink." I am a girl and I fucking hate pink. I'm sure there are guys out there who don't like guns. It's all stereotyping.

My question is just this: Why do things have to be separated into masculine and feminine? Why do we emphasize gender so damn strongly in this society? Besides the obvious reasons of patriarchy? >.<

That's true. Even though MotherCossack insinuated it, I was never really that interested in guns- I never had a toy one- and when I was very small everyone thought I was a girl.

[RedAnarchist]

Someone posted this on Facebook a few days ago, and I think it might be of use. The scales are a bit basic, especially in the case of sexuality and gender identity, but I think the message still gets across.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/396677_10150504405321432_142311251431_9271289_1273 468707_n.jpg

[MotherCossack]

ok.... you know what....
a heap of good points have been made... and i seem to find myself going....
'ok...this makes sense...that works for me....'

maybe i just happen to have produced a bunch of boringly gender-conformist mini cossacks.
although it is early days yet.!!!!!
[b. t. w. i was thinking of inventing a new word---- gendercentric. the kernal thinks it could be asking for trouble... what do yous think?]

DUCKY...DUCKY...DUCKY..., i have to tell ya ... you sound right the way up my bloody street.
what i mean is... in the old days when i could be bothered with stuff like self -image... i tell ya... you nailed it... spot on... that was me.
hell.... wierd!
i bet this'll fxxk you off... but it's true.

oh yeah ,lastly ....kernal cossack...son you do talk crap, sometimes....
what bit of you din't like guns.....
well i'm not saying you were obsessed but definitely reasonably keen.

and why can all boys do the sound from birth?
especially the machine gun barrage...
dvf-dvf-dvf-dvf-dvf-dvf.... or dur-du-du-du-du-du or pcho-pcho-pcho-pcho-pcho

all girls [well the ones i know] can manage is
bang bang bang

[Landsharks eat metal]

maybe i just happen to have produced a bunch of boringly gender-conformist mini cossacks.
although it is early days yet.!!!!!

Damn, I wish my parents were as cool as you. Gender-conformism to them is pretty much a necessity, not boring.

[The Douche]

I disagree with the assertion that "girls" are "girls" and "boys" are "boys". I don't agree that there is/ought to be any definition of what makes one a girl or boy other than whatever an individual sees them as.

My girlfriend likes to get tattoos, shoot guns, skateboard, drink beer, curse, and I've seen her get physically agressive more than once. Most people would say these are "boy's things", she would disagree pretty strongly.

[Azraella]

does anyone fancy a discussion about whether boys and girls are born as such, or are they made by society and/or parental influences?

Both.

Most kids have a hard idea about their gender identity by two years of age. However it's not always the case.

[Agent Ducky]

DUCKY...DUCKY...DUCKY..., i have to tell ya ... you sound right the way up my bloody street.
what i mean is... in the old days when i could be bothered with stuff like self -image... i tell ya... you nailed it... spot on... that was me.
hell.... wierd!
i bet this'll fxxk you off... but it's true.

Self-image? In what context?
And why would that piss me off? I feel like everyone around me perceives me as a ball of rage that will be pissed off about everything when in reality I'm not. XD

[MotherCossack]

i was being irritating, basically... dont you agree...
the post was accurate, dont get me wrong... i was just being a tad creepy i suppose.
just out of interest do you pride yourself in being brutally honest, with others and yourself?
and do you often find yourself reacting to a lot of what comes your way in a, sometimes, excessively contrary fashion?


lastly..... i used to despise/loathe all shades of pink....
until it became no longer appropriate for me to wear it [and look tasteful].
suddenly i began to view the whole pink spectrum more favourably.
these days i have been known to wear nothing else for days on end!!
i pity those who know me!

[Agent Ducky]

just out of interest do you pride yourself in being brutally honest, with others and yourself?
and do you often find yourself reacting to a lot of what comes your way in a, sometimes, excessively contrary fashion?

Yes. Brutal honesty for the win. And yes again. I think the contrariness comes from my natural tendency to want to argue. To me, most of it isn't personal, it's just fun. Some people don't get that. I'm a fighter, not a lover.

[MotherCossack]

yes!
you are not quite me... but nearly.
if you are as you claim to be... and live in the way you say you do...
then, my friend, you are what i always aimed to be....
you are who i thought i was... but the bottom line is....
i had to admit.. [being one who lives by the truth and is ready to die by the truth]
that brutal honesty turned around and, it bit me...
and i said to the world:
"i take it back.... i do get hurt... it is personal... my feelings are in pain...
doesnt anyone like me?
i dont want to give a hoot but i give a hoot a whole lot of hoots!"

and when i had accepted my actual fragility ... nothing changed .....
but it felt good ..knowing that i had done battle with brutal honesty... and faced it...
having nothing to hide from within and without...
a different kind of strength... but yeah... i'll have some of that!

so... yeah... alike..... not quite the same.... but of equal value!!!

[Ele'ill]

Yeah but that chart thing shows orientation as being a choice

[kuros]

Someone posted this on Facebook a few days ago, and I think it might be of use. The scales are a bit basic, especially in the case of sexuality and gender identity, but I think the message still gets across.

]
I think this picture is kind of dump, since so called "gender expression" does not have to be either masculine or feminine, in fact i dont see why you would seperate gender expression from how a person interacts in general. Furthermore on gender identity, if you think you are a women but is really a man, your a man, not a women. In general i dont understand transgenderism, since your either born a male or a female (a few are born intersex) and there is no valid reason to seperate sex from gender, and if identifying as a different gender than you are is because you act differently than your stereotypical gender role does not mean you have to identify as a male or female even through you are the opposite, simply that you do not act up to stereotypical gender roles. There is quite simply no reason to identify as for example a female if you are a male even if you dress like a female and act like a stereotypical female, it simply means that you dont live up to traditional gender roles, not that you are really a female. In general i think it is weird to say that everyone in the world has either to identities, masculine or feminine, and any reasonable feminist should oppose the concepts of feminine and masculine, as there are social constructs and have no rational basis behind them, which is why having a gender identity is irrational, you should act as the person you are, and leftists should be opposed to the concept of gender and thus to the transgender notion that you can identify as a female or a male, the concept of gender identity is completely irrational and proponants of sexual equality should oppose it, simply be who you are and dont care about notions of gender identity, having a gender identity makes no sense, as you should simply have your own personal identity and dont care about stereotypical notions of gender, which should't exist.

[Firebrand]

I never liked pink much and to this day I struggle with makeup. If its a built in instinct to understand girly things then it must've passed me by. I used to conduct full on wars against my sister. With help from some friends of ours of course. Violence is fun when you're a kid, whether you're a boy or girl, its only as you get older i've found that social expectations start to take over and it suddenly becomes not cool to climb trees and catch spiders.

[MotherCossack]

aha! gotcha!
found an interesting little cartoon penned by the kernal... few years back...
about a psychotic, trigger happy killer called colonel kusak!
if i only knew how... i'd scan and put it up for your entertainment... quite a graphic, gratuituously violent little piece... with guns a plenty..
he he.
although he has admitedly become a far more rounded individual since then... and i am certainly not trying to score brownie points at the expense of my beautiful boy wonder.