What REALLY Happened in Oakland

[Binh]

http://kasamaproject.org/2012/01/29/police-assault-on-occupy-oakland-a-first-hand-account/

What really happened at Occupy Oakland on Saturday January 28 – Read my firsthand account, not the news. Please Spread.

by baked420

For the internet, here’s a first-hand account of Occupy Oakland on 1/28/2012, because the news never tells the full story. I’ll tell you about the street battle, the 300+ arrests, the vandalism, the flag burning, all in the context of my experience today. This is deeper than the headlines. No major news source can do that for you.

The stated goal for the day was to “move-in” to a large, abandoned, building to turn it into a social and political center. It is a long vacant convention center – the only people ever near there are the homeless who use the space outside the building as a bed. The building occupation also draws attention to the large number of abandoned and unused buildings in Oakland. The day started with a rally and a march to the proposed building. The police knew which building was the target, surrounded it, and used highly mobile units to try and divert the protest. After avoiding police lines, the group made it to one side of the building. Now, this is a very large building, and we were on a road with construction fences on both sides, and a large ditch separating us from the cops. The police fired smoke grenades into the crowd as the group neared a small path around the ditch, towards the building. They declared an unlawful assembly, and this is when the crowd broke down the construction fence. A few people broke fences to escape the situation, others because they were pissed. A couple more fences were taken down then necessary, but no valuable equipment was destroyed. They only things broken were fences.

The crowd decided to continue moving, and walked up the block to a more regular street. We decided to turn left up the street, and a police line formed to stop the march. They again declared an unlawful assembly. The protesters challenged the line, marching towards the police with our own shields in front. The shields, some small and black and a few large metal sheets. The police fired tear-gas as the group approached, and shot less-than-lethal rounds at the crowd. The protesters returned one volley of firecrackers, small projectiles, and funny things like balloons. A very weak attack, 3 officers may have been hit by something but none of them got injured. Tear gas forced many people back. The protesters quickly regrouped, and pressed the line again. This time the police opened fire with flash-grenades, tear gas, paint-filled beanbag shotguns, and rubber bullets.

After the police fired heavily on the protesters, they pushed their line forward and made a few arrests. The protesters regrouped down the block and began to march the other way (followed by police), back to Oscar Grant Plaza.

All of this occurred during the day, but it was that street battle that set the tone for the police response later in the evening. After taking a break in Oscar Grant Plaza, feeding everyone and resting, the group headed out for their evening march. Around 5pm, the group took to the street at 14th and Broadway and began a First-amendment sanctioned march around the city. The police response was very aggressive.

About 15 minutes into the march, the police attempted to kettle the protesters. This march was entirely non-violent; nobody threw shit at the cops and an unlawful assembly was never declared. . This is a very important detail. The march was 1000+ strong, conservatively. The police were very mobile, using 25+ rented 10seater vans to bring the ‘troops’ to the march.

For their first attempt at a kettle, the cops charged the group with police lines from the front and back. They ran towards us aggressively. Us being 1000+ peaceful marching protesters. The group was forced to move up a side street. The police moved quickly to surround the entire area; they formed a line on every street that the side street connected to. Police state status: very efficient. They kettled almost the entire protest in the park near the Fox theater. AFTERWARDS, as in after they surrounded everyone, they declared it to be an unlawful assembly BUT OFFERED NO EXIT ROUTE. Gas was used, could of been tear or smoke gas.

The crowd then broke down a fence that was on one side of the kettle, and 1000 people ran across a field escaping a police kettle and embarrassing the entire police force. It was literally a massive jailbreak from a kettle. The group re-took Telegraph ave. and left the police way behind.
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At this point, I was on edge because I knew the police were not fucking around tonight. Because of the incident earlier in the day, I realized they were effectively treating the peaceful march as a riot. There was not rioting, or intentions to riot, just dancing, optimism, hope, and walking. But clearly the police thought differently, and I knew they would try to trap us again without warning. From the moment I saw riot police running towards are march from both directions, I knew the constitution would not apply in Oakland tonight. The police made that very clear. My friends thought differently, thinking that they would not be arrested for marching. They are currently in jail.

The second, and successful, kettle occurred as the protest was headed back up Broadway, at Broadway and 24th. Again, the police appeared quickly in front of the crowd, as well as a line behind the crowd. This time there was no side street. A few people attempted to escape into the YMCA; some mis-infonformed news reports claim that the YMCA got ‘occupied’. Around 300 people were trapped, mostly young people. At this point I had fallen behind the line of riot police in back of the crowd, and when the kettle was sprung I was on the other side of the police line. I have a policy of avoiding arrest, but I feel like I’ve been striped of some dignity. I’ve seen some shit go down in oaktown, but I’ve always avoided arrest because it was easy. Most mass arrests occur when people choose to break the law (like occupying Bank of America in downtown SF and pitching a tent to send a statement to UC Regent Monica Lozano on BofA’s board – respect). At ‘unlawfully assemblies’, people are usually extracted by a quick attack of 5+ cops, and their often ‘targets’ (previously-identified and profiled protesters). If the crowd is too large, they use tear-gas.

Tonight was different. When I fell behind the group, I knew they were going to arrest a very large number of peaceful protesters without declaring an unlawful assembly at the location. And then they did. I thought this shit was reserved for G20′s and WTO meetings. I felt shame for being intimidated away from my rights. ‘Unlawful assemblies’ feel like a boot stomp on the first amendment, but this was like them wiping their ass with the constitution and force feeding it to me.

300+ were arrested, corralled below the YMCA @ 23rd and Broadway. The only announcement that was made was one I’ve never heard before:

“You are under arrest. Submit to your arrest.”

The 300 protesters were then arrested, one by one. They were ziptied and sat in rows while they waited to be processed. OPD set up an entire processing station behind police lines, where they searched and identified every protester. They were slowly loaded onto buses, including local public AC transit buses. This took about 4 or 5 hours.

Outside the police lines, things were still happening. A group that escaped the trap decided to head back to Oscar Grant Plaza. I do not know how, but they opened the front door to city hall and occupied the building. Opened, as in no window smashing. The move was not meant to be an occupation but more of a show of solidarity to the 300 arrested protesters down the street. When all the people being arrested heard the news, they let out a big cheer…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sFaviIoy4rg

..At this point I ran to Oscar Grant Plaza. When I arrived there were only 8 riot cops guarding the open front door, but more arrived very quickly. No one was inside the building anymore, but many had gathered in the Plaza. Someone burned an American Flag in front of city hall. I’ve seen the same guy do it before; frankly he’s weird and it’s kind of his thingOne thing to note is the police arrested to wrong part of the protest. Most people arrested were young peaceful types. Aggressive protesters, and anyone with a record, are usually very good at avoiding arrest. Point being, back at the plaza opportunists began their work. I saw some young ‘jugalos’ spray-painting a wall with “jugalos for life” shit and then take photos next to it. They were just young and stupid kids; some good protesters cleaned it up later in the night. Some CBS and FOX news crews forced to leave the scene, with people spanking their van. They had already gotten the footage of someone burning an American Flag in front of city hall, so their work was done. The crowd was angry about what happened, and milling around the plaza and downtown area. At one point, the first of the 9 busloads of protesters drove past 14th and Broadway. People cheered for the ones inside, and chased it down, slamming on the sides of the bus. None of the other buses came past the plaza. There is about 30 police in the immediate area, 20 in front of city hall and 10 near 14th and broadway. Clearly they were stretched thin, and did not expect the city hall incident. Mutual aid been called it; I saw cops from Oakland, Alameda County Sheriff, Pleasanton, and Berkeley.

I walked back down to the 300 arrests in progress to try and get some information or spot my friends, but all I could do was wait and watch from behind the police line. My phone died. Not much happened, a lot of waiting and talking with people who also had friends on the other side. People included one French women who talked about how in France this would never be tolerated, and a teacher of one of Oakland’s 10 schools being closed who was out on his birthday ‘for the kids’. Eventually, I decided I needed to charge my phone, get on the internet, and figure out where and when my friends will be released. Siting down on BART was great after a long day of walking.

I got home and viewed OakfoSho and PunkboyinSf on Ustream to stay posted. OakFoSho filmed the entire arrest from above, I was able to look for my friends from his stream. All props to that guy. I saw that with the new development at Oscar Grant Plaza, they had to call in mutual aid from San Francisco, Marin, and San Mateo. They declared the 14th and Broadway an unlawful assembly and slowly dispersed the dwindling crowd. No tear gas this time!

Now that this incident is on-record, I’m gonna get a little sleep, then go pick up my friends from jail.

If you only remember one detail be it this: Tonight’s mass arrest occurred without a dispersal order. No law was broken. The only order given was: “You are under arrest. Submit to your arrest.” 300 peaceful protesters walking down a street were trapped and arrested unlawfully.

A note about police militarization: I saw some big guns and scary gear tonight. Alameda County Sheriff seems to have an endless budget for that shit. But tonight I saw something much scarier, that I’ve never seen before. First, I saw that the police have a printed profile books of protesters. I saw a cop flipping through pictures with descriptions, talking about who on their list they’ve seen today. When resting in Oscar Grant Plaza, a cop was filming the plaza from a rooftop in an adjacent building. They’re always filming, some have cameras on their bodies now, but this was clear spying and sophisticated intelligence gathering and analysis. Second, a very large tank on wheels, with a water cannon on top, rolled on scene. Someone said it was called a “grizzly”, but I can’t find a photo anywhere. help? It was massive, and I stood right next to it before they brought it behind police lines. It was a hardcore, modern urban tank. The police are funded and prepared to use a water cannon on protesters, if need be. Know that.

The thing about Occupy, and especially Occupy Oakland, is it refuses to exclude. We are the 99%, and we mean it. The homeless and disenfranchised were welcome in the camp from day 1. The crime rate in Downtown Oakland went down, and some people finally had a safe place to sleep. Idealistic youth, google techies, students, teachers, parents, children, poor, homeless, workers, all coming together. It rekindled hope for a lot of people. Occupy changed the conversation. The idea is more important than any one protest. An idea cannot be stopped. It is no longer about occupations; instead, it’s about bringing people together. The 99%, all with their own problems and concerns, have brought their collective attention to the root of the forces preventing them from making a better world.

A lot of the people arrested today were my peers…a lot of young people and students. For us, the occupy movement can’t be diminished or co-opted…it’s bigger than occupy. I will seek the changes I marched for tonight until I win or die. It is the task of my generation, worldwide, to return power to the people. Governments around the world are quickly realizing that our generation will not back down. This is bigger than ‘occupy’, this is bigger than one country, one problem, or one protest. The people want their world back. We are fighting for our future, and we are winning..

Edit: Forgot to add this context – The Oakland PD will soon be taken over by the Feds because of their poor conduct and inability to change: http://www.baycitizen.org/policing/story/judge-strips-power-oakland-police/

[Prometeo liberado]

I take away so much from this and thank you for this insightful post. I know in certain European marches the demonstrators often use smoke to cloud the sky so that the cops can not film from overhead. Glad you are ok.

[Buitraker]

More reasons to take streets

Cmon Oakland!!!

[RevSpetsnaz]

Identical to the protest suppression you see in dictatorships.

[The Douche]

Identical to the protest suppression you see in dictatorships.

Umm... people are getting killed in Egypt and Syria...

[RevSpetsnaz]

Umm... people are getting killed in Egypt and Syria...

The former Marine and Occupy Wallstreet protestor thats in critical care?

[bcbm]

in syria they fire live ammunition

[The Douche]

The former Marine and Occupy Wallstreet protestor thats in critical care?

Was released weeks ago, and made some disappointing statement about the need to remain peaceful.

[RevSpetsnaz]

in syria they fire live ammunition

Those rubber bullets are anything but "less than lethal".

[bcbm]

i know all about rubber bullets, but they are still something different than being shot at with an assault rifle don't you think?

[The Douche]

Those rubber bullets are anything but "less than lethal".

Oh word? Which would you rather be shot by, a bean bag round or a full metal jacket?

Your comments are insulting to the people who are legitimately risking their lives right now.

[RevSpetsnaz]

i know all about rubber bullets, but they are still something different than being shot at with an assault rifle don't you think?

Of course, however in both of the countries you mentioned they started with "less than lethal" ammunition.

[RevSpetsnaz]

Oh word? Which would you rather be shot by, a bean bag round or a full metal jacket?

Your comments are insulting to the people who are legitimately risking their lives right now.

I didnt say bean bag round, i said rubber bullet. Another point to make is you can insert objects into those rubber bullets, making them an entirely different round. No theyre not FMJs but they can still kill, especially at the ranges these cops are engaging protestors at.

[The Douche]

Spetznaz, special purpose troop, thinks getting shot at by rubber bullets makes them an uber-revolutionary, just like every in Syria, maaaaannnnnn...:rolleyes:

[The Douche]

I didnt say bean bag round, i said rubber bullet. Another point to make is you can insert objects into those rubber bullets, making them an entirely different round. No theyre not FMJs but they can still kill, especially at the ranges these cops are engaging protestors at.

I shot somebody in the head with a rubber bullet once, they didn't die. They didn't even get knocked unconscious, they got a concussion.

You can't really insert anything into a rubber bullet.

[RevSpetsnaz]

Spetznaz, special purpose troop, thinks getting shot at by rubber bullets makes them an uber-revolutionary, just like every in Syria, maaaaannnnnn...:rolleyes:

Some people on this site are so good at taking things out of context and twisting words they could run for the GOP presidential nomination.

[RevSpetsnaz]

I shot somebody in the head with a rubber bullet once, they didn't die. They didn't even get knocked unconscious, they got a concussion.

You can't really insert anything into a rubber bullet.

Of course you did.

[The Douche]

Of course you did.

I worked as a prison guard in Iraq in the US Army.

[bcbm]

Of course, however in both of the countries you mentioned they started with "less than lethal" ammunition.

do they let the arrested protesters post bail in syria? come on, obviously the police response is brutal but it is not identical to what is happening in dictatorships.

[RevSpetsnaz]

do they let the arrested protesters post bail in syria? come on, obviously the police response is brutal but it is not identical to what is happening in dictatorships.

Obviously when i said what i did i wasnt implying it was literally identical. On another note theres US citizens being held, indefinately and without charge.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Obviously when i said what i did i wasnt implying it was literally identical. On another note theres US citizens being held, indefinately and without charge.We don't disagree that this is shit and that the US has on the one hand, been building up it's repressive apparatus for use domestically (increased prison repression, more cops, heavily armed and trained in military tactics), and on the other hand been fairly ruthless at points against Occupy in particular.

But this doesn't mean we are in a police state type situation, welcome to regular old repressive capitalism. The US has used the military against strikers in the past (and threatened it against the ILWU in 2001 and Long-view workers now) and there has been open and pitched battles bewtween workers and police or national guard in the US past... that's just capitalism. Pinochet-style rule, Syrian style rule would mean all this, plus being treated like that for trying to get someone to sign a petition or holding a sign. It would mean people not getting picked up out of a protest and arrested, it would mean knocks on doors in mass numbers and disappearances of activists and unionists.

Sorry if folks are being overly-hard on this question, but I think it's important to over-emphasize this point sometimes because this attitude or the idea that we are under fascism are popular among the general left in the US and IMO lead people either to pessimism/fatalism or reformist and supporting the Democratic party lesser evil in order to prevent "fascist" Republicans from getting voted in.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The USA is definitely a stronger state than Syria is, though. The reason Syria (or any government that takes similar measures) reacts so harshly is usually because the leadership knows that their position in government is never totally secure, either from forces external or internal to the leadership.

I think the USA is a police state, actually. It's not, say, Uzbekistan, which is a more classic example of a police state, but I don't think that people need to be disappearing around you left and right or protestors being shot with live ammo for police state classification. The fact that every asshole with a gun and a badge expects you to meekly reply "how high?" when he orders you to jump, and the public largely seems to be either apathetic or blindly supportive of law enforcement...that in my mind is a much more present and realistic police state than the nightmares certain civil libertarians have about where this country is headed.

It's going to get worse, too.

[RevSpetsnaz]

We don't disagree that this is shit and that the US has on the one hand, been building up it's repressive apparatus for use domestically (increased prison repression, more cops, heavily armed and trained in military tactics), and on the other hand been fairly ruthless at points against Occupy in particular.

But this doesn't mean we are in a police state type situation, welcome to regular old repressive capitalism. The US has used the military against strikers in the past (and threatened it against the ILWU in 2001 and Long-view workers now) and there has been open and pitched battles bewtween workers and police or national guard in the US past... that's just capitalism. Pinochet-style rule, Syrian style rule would mean all this, plus being treated like that for trying to get someone to sign a petition or holding a sign. It would mean people not getting picked up out of a protest and arrested, it would mean knocks on doors in mass numbers and disappearances of activists and unionists.

Sorry if folks are being overly-hard on this question, but I think it's important to over-emphasize this point sometimes because this attitude or the idea that we are under fascism are popular among the general left in the US and IMO lead people either to pessimism/fatalism or reformist and supporting the Democratic party lesser evil in order to prevent "fascist" Republicans from getting voted in.

You say the US isnt a police state but things like the Patriot Act say otherwise. There are countless stories of domestic spying as well as unlawful detentions and things of that ilk. No, im not saying the US is Syria however as the post above makes aware the US government is nowhere near as weak as Syrias, therefore not having to react in quite the same fashion.

[The Douche]

You're posting on this website right now, there are regular protests staged all over the country. Police state is an exageration in my opinion.

[Paulappaul]

do they let the arrested protesters post bail in syria? come on, obviously the police response is brutal but it is not identical to what is happening in dictatorships.

:thumbup:Internet douche tough guy :thumbup:

[bcbm]

how is that 'tough?'

[Ocean Seal]

Guys stop comparing which is worse. They are both equally bad in theory. In practice the dictatorships are clamping down because Assad knows he's on his way out if he doesn't end these protests. The American bourgeoisie don't have to worry about Occupy turning into a revolution, rather they just have to stop it from achieving certain reforms. So its obviously a different situation and if the American bourgeoisie were worried about being ousted they would use live ammunition.

So yeah, getting beaten down sucks, but I agree that live ammunition is worse.

[RevSpetsnaz]

Guys stop comparing which is worse. They are both equally bad in theory. In practice the dictatorships are clamping down because Assad knows he's on his way out if he doesn't end these protests. The American bourgeoisie don't have to worry about Occupy turning into a revolution, rather they just have to stop it from achieving certain reforms. So its obviously a different situation and if the American bourgeoisie were worried about being ousted they would use live ammunition.

So yeah, getting beaten down sucks, but I agree that live ammunition is worse.

I dont think anyone is saying a beatdown is worse than an FMJ. As far as im concerned the putting down of any nonviolent protest against the government is the act of a police state.

[Jimmie Higgins]

You say the US isnt a police state but things like the Patriot Act say otherwise. There are countless stories of domestic spying as well as unlawful detentions and things of that ilk. No, im not saying the US is Syria however as the post above makes aware the US government is nowhere near as weak as Syrias, therefore not having to react in quite the same fashion.They definitely have the aperatus, but like I said, this is just liberal capitalism. They are brutal and will get worse as our movements grow, but we still have "legal" means to fight (by which I mean bourgeois speech rights and assembly rights) and we can exploit these openings while we have them in order to grow our ranks and develop ways to resist.

The police are not invincible and they are not storm-troopers, their outfits are partially for psychological effect. I got married recently and we conned our relitives into giving us money for a red-honneymoon in Greece.In Athens there are mobile police riot buses stationed in a bunch of the central neighborhoods downtown. On a normal day, these riot cops stand around with machine guns in riot gear. They are also taking away rights in Greece that will make it harder to protest and repealing a law that prevents law enforcement on college campuses (oh how nice that law would be here!). Those Greek cops were scary as fuck - and yet that too is not yet a police state (but considering the amount of austerity the government is trying to make them swallow as well as the amount of resistance, I'd imagine they are closer to having a permanent martial law that the US is).

Think about the 1960s too. The police got into gunfights with groups like the Black Panther Party, they assassinated members, they set up groups, the did drive-bys of the BPP headquarters! That also wasn't a police state.

There's no doubt that the US has the tools of a police state in their back pocket, but that's because of the nature of capitalism. Any bourgeois government anywhere has the tools and the will to institute ongoing martial law if they feel that they have no other choice. They generally don't want to because it creates an unstable society, hurts their credibility internationally, and they'd rather just convince us that there's no point in fighting back anyway because then we are our own slave-drivers and feel more hopeless.

[The Douche]

I dont think anyone is saying a beatdown is worse than an FMJ. As far as im concerned the putting down of any nonviolent protest against the government is the act of a police state.

That's not a police state, thats just, the police.

You're gonna find that there are quite a number of people on this website (mostly the ones who have been around the block a few times) that really don't like it when leftists cry wolf by screaming "fascist" and "police state" all the time.

[RevSpetsnaz]

They definitely have the aperatus, but like I said, this is just liberal capitalism. They are brutal and will get worse as our movements grow, but we still have "legal" means to fight (by which I mean bourgeois speech rights and assembly rights) and we can exploit these openings while we have them in order to grow our ranks and develop ways to resist.

The police are not invincible and they are not storm-troopers, their outfits are partially for psychological effect. I got married recently and we conned our relitives into giving us money for a red-honneymoon in Greece.In Athens there are mobile police riot buses stationed in a bunch of the central neighborhoods downtown. On a normal day, these riot cops stand around with machine guns in riot gear. They are also taking away rights in Greece that will make it harder to protest and repealing a law that prevents law enforcement on college campuses (oh how nice that law would be here!). Those Greek cops were scary as fuck - and yet that too is not yet a police state (but considering the amount of austerity the government is trying to make them swallow as well as the amount of resistance, I'd imagine they are closer to having a permanent martial law that the US is).

Think about the 1960s too. The police got into gunfights with groups like the Black Panther Party, they assassinated members, they set up groups, the did drive-bys of the BPP headquarters! That also wasn't a police state.

There's no doubt that the US has the tools of a police state in their back pocket, but that's because of the nature of capitalism. Any bourgeois government anywhere has the tools and the will to institute ongoing martial law if they feel that they have no other choice. They generally don't want to because it creates an unstable society, hurts their credibility internationally, and they'd rather just convince us that there's no point in fighting back anyway because then we are our own slave-drivers and feel more hopeless.

Theyve passed bills to allow a plethora of actions to be brought against dissidents. No, theyre not engaging us in firefights in the streets but theyve done that in the past so nothings to say they wouldnt resort to that tactic in the future.

[RevSpetsnaz]

That's not a police state, thats just, the police.

You're gonna find that there are quite a number of people on this website (mostly the ones who have been around the block a few times) that really don't like it when leftists cry wolf by screaming "fascist" and "police state" all the time.

This is the first time ive brought up the notion.

[The Douche]

This is the first time ive brought up the notion.

My point was that you're not the first one to say that "OMG!!!! America is a nazi police state11!!!!1!!!one!!!". And I know you didn't say it in such hyperbolic terms, but thats essentially what I see when I see somebody, who could never really understand the hardships endured by protesters in a country like Syria, talk about how they're living under a dictatorship.

[RevSpetsnaz]

My point was that you're not the first one to say that "OMG!!!! America is a nazi police state11!!!!1!!!one!!!". And I know you didn't say it in such hyperbolic terms, but thats essentially what I see when I see somebody, who could never really understand the hardships endured by protesters in a country like Syria, talk about how they're living under a dictatorship.

I see this as the action of a police state, however i do not think that we are anywhere approaching Nazi Germany. Now that thats settled.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I see this as the action of a police state, however i do not think that we are anywhere approaching Nazi Germany. Now that thats settled.I think this is an important political point because how you read the balance of forces (i.e. how aggressive they are vs. how aggressive we are) in a given location effects your political strategy. Radicals under fascism, or a parliamentary government, military coup, or police state would need to respond to those repressive systems in different ways based on how class rule and repression functioned there.

But I think we all agree here that the system in the US is repressive and oppose these actions. On what the significance of those repressive measures is and what we call it, but after a few arguments back and forth, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the "police state" question.

[RevSpetsnaz]

I think this is an important political point because how you read the balance of forces (i.e. how aggressive they are vs. how aggressive we are) in a given location effects your political strategy. Radicals under fascism, or a parliamentary government, military coup, or police state would need to respond to those repressive systems in different ways based on how class rule and repression functioned there.

But I think we all agree here that the system in the US is repressive and oppose these actions. On what the significance of those repressive measures is and what we call it, but after a few arguments back and forth, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the "police state" question.

So long as we agree that worker exploitation is wrong, under any circumstances.

[Jimmie Higgins]

So long as we agree that worker exploitation is wrong, under any circumstances.No!


:laugh:

[ckaihatsu]

[Assad] knows he's on his way out if he doesn't end these protests.


It's not merely about populist-type anti-government protests, as with the 'Arab Spring' -- please recall that Syria has been on the U.S.'s (s)hit list for years now....

[Prometeo liberado]

i know all about rubber bullets, but they are still something different than being shot at with an assault rifle don't you think?

In response to the Palestinian uprising that started in the late 1980s, the Israeli military developed its own rubber bullets designed to disperse crowds, to injure but not kill. These small rubber-coated metal pellets are supposed to be shot from a distance of about 130 feet and aimed at people's legs. But they can be lethal if shot at the head at closer range, and dozens of Palestinians have died from such injuries. Israeli political scientist Yaron Ezrahi titled his book examining moral conflicts in his country Rubber Bullets.


Rubber bullets were introduced in the United States to quell anti-war and civil rights demonstrators in the 1960s. A fatality in 1971 stopped their use until their reintroduction in the late 1980s. Though famously deployed against recent protesters, they are most often used by individual police officers to subdue armed, mentally ill people. The most common kinds are the bean bag bullet, a cloth pouch with about 40 grams of lead shot that delivers the equivalent of a punch from Mike Tyson, and a plastic cylinder like that used in Northern Ireland. There have been seven known fatalities in the United States and Canada from the weapons.



Hmm....no I don't think.

[¿Que?]

I thought the article was lame. Didn't finish it. It didn't draw me in like I thought a narrative about big protest like that would be. I didn't like how the author was surreptitiously pushing a non-violent line, depicting, on the other side, trouble makers, people with records, and Juggalos. Completely disregards the argument of diversity of tactics for example, or any critique against non violence. I'm not saying I support violence, but I'm more of a support of diversity of tactics kind of guy, but I also don't think property destruction is necessarily violent.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I thought the article was lame. Didn't finish it. It didn't draw me in like I thought a narrative about big protest like that would be. I didn't like how the author was surreptitiously pushing a non-violent line, depicting, on the other side, trouble makers, people with records, and Juggalos. Completely disregards the argument of diversity of tactics for example, or any critique against non violence. I'm not saying I support violence, but I'm more of a support of diversity of tactics kind of guy, but I also don't think property destruction is necessarily violent.

I must have missed this. I think overall the author was ok in dispelling the media spin that it was a "riot" by the protesters while highlighting the heavy repression of the police. I didn't think there was much analysis in the article but I read it as a more immediate first report of the author's impressions.

I thought this line was funny:


Someone burned an American Flag in front of city hall. I’ve seen the same guy do it before; frankly he’s weird and it’s kind of his thingWhen I heard that this happened, I thought it might be this one guy from the area but then I thought, no - that's too much of a self-parody if it was him. Then I read this and am 99% certain it is the guy I was thinking of.

I once did this project on the street in 2008 where it was like a mock-election (in the sense of fake but also in the sense of mocking). This guy, who I had seen around before came up all pissed off because the voting booth we used had an American flag on it and he tried to light the booth on fire right there in front of us. Fucking hell, we had to rent that shit, we didn't paint the American flag on it, the company that produces the voting booths did! Besides if he had talked to us and learned what the project was about he's realize we were doing some anti-election anti-patriotic agit-prop. Self-righteous pseudo-radical poser.

Anyway, the next week I was in a totally different part of the East Bay at a coffee shop and I was telling someone the story of that guy trying to burn our voting booth and halfway through the story I looked outside the window and I saw that same guy and he had a tiny plastic American flag on a toothpick (like what you might get at some diner) and was burning it - all by himself on the sidewalk and cracking a huge smile. He hadn't heard us or anything, it was just a huge coincidence.

[¿Que?]

I must have missed this. I think overall the author was ok in dispelling the media spin that it was a "riot" by the protesters while highlighting the heavy repression of the police. I didn't think there was much analysis in the article but I read it as a more immediate first report of the author's impressions.

I thought this line was funny:

When I heard that this happened, I thought it might be this one guy from the area but then I thought, no - that's too much of a self-parody if it was him. Then I read this and am 99% certain it is the guy I was thinking of.

I once did this project on the street in 2008 where it was like a mock-election (in the sense of fake but also in the sense of mocking). This guy, who I had seen around before came up all pissed off because the voting booth we used had an American flag on it and he tried to light the booth on fire right there in front of us. Fucking hell, we had to rent that shit, we didn't paint the American flag on it, the company that produces the voting booths did! Besides if he had talked to us and learned what the project was about he's realize we were doing some anti-election anti-patriotic agit-prop. Self-righteous pseudo-radical poser.

Anyway, the next week I was in a totally different part of the East Bay at a coffee shop and I was telling someone the story of that guy trying to burn our voting booth and halfway through the story I looked outside the window and I saw that same guy and he had a tiny plastic American flag on a toothpick (like what you might get at some diner) and was burning it - all by himself on the sidewalk and cracking a huge smile. He hadn't heard us or anything, it was just a huge coincidence.
I lol'ed. Funny story :laugh:

[workersadvocate]

Media and liberals flipping out about the flag-burning.

One article in NY Daily News seems to have slipped up by implying that flag burners are not anarchists but instead angry Army vets.

[ellipsis]

Hmm....no I don't think.

My comrade was shot in the heart on saturday with a bean bag round and while bruised and sore was still marching after. ANY conventional round fired at the same distance would have left him in critical condition or dead.

soo yah i do think. get shot with a bean bag round and the equilivant weight of buckshot and see which is more pleasant...

having spent 22 hours in oakland jail this weekend, definitely appreciated not being in syrian, etc. jail ATM, knew it could have been alot worse

Shit went down in oakland but to try to compare it to syria, egypt, etc. is insulting to them and dangerous for us (to think we are at the same stage).

[A Marxist Historian]

I thought the article was lame. Didn't finish it. It didn't draw me in like I thought a narrative about big protest like that would be. I didn't like how the author was surreptitiously pushing a non-violent line, depicting, on the other side, trouble makers, people with records, and Juggalos. Completely disregards the argument of diversity of tactics for example, or any critique against non violence. I'm not saying I support violence, but I'm more of a support of diversity of tactics kind of guy, but I also don't think property destruction is necessarily violent.

Surreptitions? How surreptitious? The article was published in NYRB, the voice of the sophisticated liberal intelligentsia in America. There is nothing secretive about its Obamaist politics, either of the authors or of NYRB in general.

Confusing it with anything from a radical perspective is completely missing the point.

It was, considering the views of who wrote it, an intelligent and informative piece. It totally ignored Oakland, because ideas like port shutdowns and general strikes and socialism left radicalism in general are things that the author doesn't like and so didn't want to talk about.

It is exactly the liberalism of the right wing of the movement, as in all those NYC OWS organizers that were interviewed, that he does like and did want to talk about.

-M.H.-

[Rafiq]

There isn't anyone here who opposes the Assad regime more than I do, but I highly fucking doubt they are actually shooting people, according to legitiment sources who actually live in Syria.

[Rafiq]

My point was that you're not the first one to say that "OMG!!!! America is a nazi police state11!!!!1!!!one!!!". And I know you didn't say it in such hyperbolic terms, but thats essentially what I see when I see somebody, who could never really understand the hardships endured by protesters in a country like Syria, talk about how they're living under a dictatorship.

Spetznaz is wrong 100%, but you speak as if The United States has a moral authority over the Bourgeois-Assad regime.

The United States is a worse dictatorship than Syria, do you know why? Because, in Syria, there are no illusions, everyone knows it's a dictatorship. The difference is, in the United States, not only is it a dictatorship, it is a dictatorship that pretends to be something it is not, with illusions and mystifications that are so complex and advanced, nothing similar has even before been seen in human history. And it's not surprising people like yourselves would mistakenly categorize the United States as something other than one.

[¿Que?]

Surreptitions? How surreptitious? The article was published in NYRB, the voice of the sophisticated liberal intelligentsia in America. There is nothing secretive about its Obamaist politics, either of the authors or of NYRB in general.

Confusing it with anything from a radical perspective is completely missing the point.

It was, considering the views of who wrote it, an intelligent and informative piece. It totally ignored Oakland, because ideas like port shutdowns and general strikes and socialism left radicalism in general are things that the author doesn't like and so didn't want to talk about.

It is exactly the liberalism of the right wing of the movement, as in all those NYC OWS organizers that were interviewed, that he does like and did want to talk about.

-M.H.-
You're right, it was pretty blatant. My mistake.:blushing:

[bcbm]

There isn't anyone here who opposes the Assad regime more than I do, but I highly fucking doubt they are actually shooting people, according to legitiment sources who actually live in Syria.


OjWJB8Pv2OU

all the funerals etc are fake too? gimme a break

[Aleenik]

There isn't anyone here who opposes the Assad regime more than I do, but I highly fucking doubt they are actually shooting people, according to legitiment sources who actually live in Syria.Wow. Seriously? The evidence is absolutely 100% undeniable that people are being killed.

[Buitraker]

I shot somebody in the head with a rubber bullet once, they didn't die. They didn't even get knocked unconscious, they got a concussion.

You can't really insert anything into a rubber bullet.
But what kind of rubber bullet, here police dont shot rubber bullet, they use rubber balls

http://estaticos.20minutos.es/img2/recortes/2011/05/27/21266-494-349.jpg

http://www.vianetworks.es/personal/angelberto/images/071120-Boborrokas21.jpg

[The Douche]

Spetznaz is wrong 100%, but you speak as if The United States has a moral authority over the Bourgeois-Assad regime.

The United States is a worse dictatorship than Syria, do you know why? Because, in Syria, there are no illusions, everyone knows it's a dictatorship. The difference is, in the United States, not only is it a dictatorship, it is a dictatorship that pretends to be something it is not, with illusions and mystifications that are so complex and advanced, nothing similar has even before been seen in human history. And it's not surprising people like yourselves would mistakenly categorize the United States as something other than one.

Of course the US is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. But it is disgusting for people to suggest that they are taking the same risks as protesters in Syria or Egypt.

And what in the flying fuck does that bold part mean, because I have got to be misunderstanding it.

[Rafiq]

OjWJB8Pv2OU

all the funerals etc are fake too? gimme a break

My relatives, who were recording to me live a "demonstration" with no people, even though the media was doing a 'live' broadcast of the place, with people?

[Ele'ill]

My relatives, who were recording to me live a "demonstration" with no people, even though the media was doing a 'live' broadcast of the place, with people?

What?

[bcbm]

My relatives, who were recording to me live a "demonstration" with no people, even though the media was doing a 'live' broadcast of the place, with people?

so the assad regime is fighting... nobody? sure buddy

[Rafiq]

so the assad regime is fighting... nobody? sure buddy

Don't get me wrong... There is a shit storm going on. But 3,000 people haven't been killed, and the Assad regime isn't just going around fucking killing people on sight in mass numbers. They are fighting people... The same type of people Gadaffi was!

And you'd be an idiot to repeat the same mistake and deem the Syrian "opposition" the same way you, in the most naive of ways, believed the nature of the Libyan "opposition" was.

What's going on isn't our class war. It's a war between factions of the bourgeoisie. You can go ahead and declare support for Islamist scumfuckers, and consider yourself no greater in human worth than those who support the Assad regime.

[The Douche]

Don't get me wrong... There is a shit storm going on. But 3,000 people haven't been killed, and the Assad regime isn't just going around fucking killing people on sight in mass numbers. They are fighting people... The same type of people Gadaffi was!

And you'd be an idiot to repeat the same mistake and deem the Syrian "opposition" the same way you, in the most naive of ways, believed the nature of the Libyan "opposition" was.

What's going on isn't our class war. It's a war between factions of the bourgeoisie. You can go ahead and declare support for Islamist scumfuckers, and consider yourself no greater in human worth than those who support the Assad regime.

Man, you really nailed BCBM's position there, "support for Islamist scumfuckers"...

[ckaihatsu]

Man, you really nailed BCBM's position there, "support for Islamist scumfuckers"...


See 'liberal':








Some liberals have been responsible for really good policies. It is wrong to paint all liberals with the same brush.





That brush *was* just dipped in hot tar, though, right -- ???

[Rafiq]

Man, you really nailed BCBM's position there, "support for Islamist scumfuckers"...

The situation in Syria is not "Fellow protesters" vs. the The Assad regime. It's between Islamist scumfuckers and the Assad regime.

[feral bro]

The situation in Syria is not "Fellow protesters" vs. the The Assad regime. It's between Islamist scumfuckers and the Assad regime.
hey, FUCK YOU!

[Rafiq]

hey, FUCK YOU!

Damn... Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and now Syria. When will "leftists" get their heads out of there ass and realize Western media attempts to "Liberalize" the opposition to the enemies of the U.S. are bullshit?

Supports "Afghani Democratic resistance against Soviet Social Imperialism"

Turns out such resistance did not exist, Taliban controls Afghanistan

Supports "peaceful resistance" against Saddam regime.

Islamists again

Supports "Revolutionary Arab spring" in Libya.


Turns out to be a bunch of Racist mass murderers who have just recently implemented Sharia law


Supports Syrian opposition as just a current of the Arab spring, and progress


One only wonders what will happen next...

[feral bro]

Damn... Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and now Syria. When will "leftists" get their heads out of there ass and realize Western media attempts to "Liberalize" the opposition to the enemies of the U.S. are bullshit?

Supports "Afghani Democratic resistance against Soviet Social Imperialism"

Turns out such resistance did not exist, Taliban controls Afghanistan

Supports "peaceful resistance" against Saddam regime.

Islamists again

Supports "Revolutionary Arab spring" in Libya.


Turns out to be a bunch of Racist mass murderers who have just recently implemented Sharia law


Supports Syrian opposition as just a current of the Arab spring, and progress


One only wonders what will happen next...

im not a leftist and dont try to attribute positions to me. k thnx

either way, man you dumb.

[Rafiq]

So admins, this guy here isn't a Leftist, mind, you know, doing your thing then?

[ckaihatsu]

So admins, this guy here isn't a Leftist, mind, you know, doing your thing then?


(The strength of being a revolutionary is that since your political opponents *aren't* revolutionaries, the basis of *their* politics is not nearly as well-developed theoretically. No matter if they're conservatives or liberals their politics are grounded in their own vested, *private* interests, *not* the interests of the workers or the world as a whole. This means that *their* connection to objective reality is only through a *segment* of social reality, and that's as far / high as they can go. All you need to do is bring them "outside of their comfort zone", politically speaking, and their air supply will get so thin that they'll "black out". No mod or admin needed.)


[1] History, Macro Micro -- Precision

http://postimage.org/image/34mjeutk4/

[feral bro]

(The strength of being a revolutionary is that since your political opponents *aren't* revolutionaries, the basis of *their* politics is not nearly as well-developed theoretically. No matter if they're conservatives or liberals their politics are grounded in their own vested, *private* interests, *not* the interests of the workers or the world as a whole. This means that *their* connection to objective reality is only through a *segment* of social reality, and that's as far / high as they can go. All you need to do is bring them "outside of their comfort zone", politically speaking, and their air supply will get so thin that they'll "black out". No mod or admin needed.)


[1] History, Macro Micro -- Precision

http://postimage.org/image/34mjeutk4/
is that meant to be ironic? i really hope so. otherwise you're nothing better than a religious nut. you know the right way afterall.

[ckaihatsu]

is that meant to be ironic? i really hope so. otherwise you're nothing better than a religious nut. you know the right way afterall.


If I'm incorrect then why haven't you been able to respond to Rafiq in posts 61 and 62 -- ?

[feral bro]

you don't know much do you.

[ckaihatsu]

you don't know much do you.


Hey, feel free to tell me. Meanwhile you're not being political here....

[Ele'ill]

you don't know much do you.

Verbal warning for trolling/off-topic useless post

[bcbm]

Don't get me wrong... There is a shit storm going on. But 3,000 people haven't been killed, and the Assad regime isn't just going around fucking killing people on sight in mass numbers. They are fighting people... The same type of people Gadaffi was!

so nobody was killed until there was fighting from both sides?


And you'd be an idiot to repeat the same mistake and deem the Syrian "opposition" the same way you, in the most naive of ways, believed the nature of the Libyan "opposition" was.
As I said, you have NATO/Rebels on one side and the Libyan Government on the other side. Now which side are you on?

neither and i still am not sure how my or any of our "taking sides" on this matters in any way.


What's going on isn't our class war. It's a war between factions of the bourgeoisie.
The thugs with green flags are fighting NATO, the thugs with monarchist flags are taking money from the CIA. In this situation I'll take sides.

good i hope taking sides in which the ruling class wins while workers die for them makes you happy


You can go ahead and declare support for Islamist scumfuckers, and consider yourself no greater in human worth than those who support the Assad regime.are the ncb ('the ncb is an umbrella group of arab nationalist figures, socialists, independents, marxists and also comprises members of syria’s minority kurdish community. the coalition is staunchly opposed to any international military intervention. ') islamist scumfuckers as well? i don't have an interest in 'picking sides' in syria, but i think you're being a bit too broad with your brushstrokes.


The situation in Syria is not "Fellow protesters" vs. the The Assad regime.

you put fellow protesters in quotation marks like it is something i (or hell, anybody i'll give you the benefit of the doubt) said, but i can't seem to recall such a phrase or even an idea. maybe you could point it out?


Damn... Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and now Syria. When will "leftists" get their heads out of there ass and realize Western media attempts to "Liberalize" the opposition to the enemies of the U.S. are bullshit? 'leftists' happily line up behind islamists when they oppose the us too.

[Rafiq]

^ which is why I oppose modern PFLP and LCP

[The Douche]

So admins, this guy here isn't a Leftist, mind, you know, doing your thing then?

I'm not a leftist either.

I know you really think you have the whole communism thing on lock, but you've still got plenty to learn.

[Rafiq]

I'm not a leftist either.

I know you really think you have the whole communism thing on lock, but you've still got plenty to learn.

Oh, it's your types, who disdain from calling themselves "Leftists" because they view it as inherit to the Bourgeois political spectrum? Whatever. Even if that is what he meant, it's still pretty fucking off-topic and useless all together.

He's been here for a month. For all I fucking know he could have been an ancap or something.

[bcbm]

^ which is why I oppose modern PFLP and LCP

which is?

[Rafiq]

which is?

Because they side with islamists against Imperialism

[ellipsis]

Let's get this thread back on topic please.

[The Douche]

Oh, it's your types, who disdain from calling themselves "Leftists" because they view it as inherit to the Bourgeois political spectrum? Whatever. Even if that is what he meant, it's still pretty fucking off-topic and useless all together.

He's been here for a month. For all I fucking know he could have been an ancap or something.

I'm pretty tired of these "you types" and "people like you" sort of comments from you. If you've got some sort of issue with a my politics, or another poster's politics, then why don't you state the issue, and your problem with it and prompt a response, that is, if you can even forumulate a position based on politics...

In the time you've been here haven't you been a Stalinist, and Left Communist, and now don't you drink DNZ's internet kool-aid?

[Rafiq]

When I came here I was just your average M-L noob, I got interested in Libertarian German/Dutch Left Communism, and since last spring I shifted to orthodox marxism with some minor bordigist influences. What's your point? And I am fond of many things formilated by DNZ, who, unlike many here, comes to them without ideological opportunism, but structurally skilled Marxist thought.

[ellipsis]

thread closed, start a new thread if you want to continue off-topic conversation. Check the occupy oakland newswire for more info on and discussion of occupy oakland.