Abandoned Yugoslav war monuments (that look like they're from the future)

[Bandito]

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/2155656_700b.jpg

[workersadvocate]

Damn, those are interesting!

[The Young Pioneer]

Cool, but...Abandoned war monuments?

Some of these are holocaust/genocide/massacre/etc., etc. memorial statues and are by no means abandoned. http://www.jusp-jasenovac.hr/Default.aspx?sid=6468

Also, the Tjentište one is pictured twice. :confused:

[The Young Pioneer]

@Liza:The Jasenovac genocide memorial is not abandoned,but the way Croatia treats it is digusting.

Oh, how do they treat it? (Serious question, I only just began learning about Jasenovac for myself.)

[Искра]

Like it was a site where a couple of people died.How many people died in the genocide in the NDH is still unknown (the precise number) but probably from 600.000 to 700.000 {not to mention those who were forced out of it} Many politicians are suggesting much much smaller numbers.Some crazy nationalists are completely denying it.The Church is also full of people who are denying it.
This is hardly true.

President and prime minister visit this place every year. They call it "place of genocide", which you can easily find out in their speeches. Of course, it depends on who's in power (right wing party such as HDZ has different rethorics than liberals). Croatian nationalists who follow politics of F. Tudjman (first Croat president), recignise Jasenovac as place of genocide where Croatian fascists killed Croatian communists (they don't mention others) which fits into ideology of "Croatian unity", where Croatian fascits and communists should unite under the wing of Croatian nationalism.

Also, if I was on your place I wouldn't play with numbers, especially when you write numbers fabricated by Serbian nationalists or Yugoslav government in 1945 for Paris conference.

If you visit Jasenovac memorial site you can find number of 80.914 (http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/articles/2007/01/08/reportage-01) victims, Yugoslav demograph Vladimir Žerljavić wrote that there were 83.000 victims, Simon Wiesenthal Center 85.000 (http://www.operationlastchance.org/CROATIA_OLC%20Activities_1.htm), United States Holocaust Memorial Museum from Washington 77.000-99.000 (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449) etc. I think that these numbers are closest to truth.

But, I personally find all people whoare forcing discussions on numbers idiots, because those numbers and body counting serve only purpose of nationalism. For internationalists only thing which is important here is that really a lot of people died because of conflicts between fracitons of capital (fascist and anti-fascits) and that we need tear this system down if we don't want this shit to happen again.

[Omsk]

I knew you would get in here.



If you visit Jasenovac memorial site you can find number of 80.914 (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/articles/2007/01/08/reportage-01) victims, Yugoslav demograph Vladimir Žerljavić wrote that there were 83.000 victims, Simon Wiesenthal Center 85.000 (http://www.operationlastchance.org/CROATIA_OLC%20Activities_1.htm), United States Holocaust Memorial Museum from Washington 77.000-99.000 (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005449) etc. I think that these numbers are closest to truth.



And that is digusting.

You failed to understand me,i said that some 600000 people lost their lives in the NDH,most of them were Serbs.This has nothing to do with Serb nationalists.



Also, if I was on your place I wouldn't play with numbers, especially when you write numbers fabricated by Serbian nationalists or Yugoslav government in 1945 for Paris conference.



Please,stick with reality.Hundreds of thousands died in the NDH,and in Jasenovac concentration camp.


But, I personally find all people whoare forcing discussions on numbers idiots, because those numbers and body counting serve only purpose of nationalism. For internationalists only thing which is important here is that really a lot of people died because of conflicts between fracitons of capital (fascist and anti-fascits) and that we need tear this system down if we don't want this shit to happen again.

You are the one forcing numbers.And this is not for the purpose of nationalism,but for the truth,because its mad to say that less than 100.000 people died.



For internationalists only thing which is important here is that really a lot of people died because of conflicts between fracitons of capital (fascist and anti-fascits)



Fascists and anti-fascists?
This is really wierd.It was hardly fascists vs anti-fascists when the Usatse forced Serbs into trains.That was not a combat,it was a massacre,genocide,one of the most horrible during the war.
However,the Ustase/Cetnik/German alliance VS partisans could be simplified down to fascists vs anti-fascists.

[The Young Pioneer]

Like it was a site where a couple of people died.

A couple? Even the lowest estimates (I've seen, anyway) are in the 30 thousands, no?

Let's go back to your original statement about the republics as a whole. You say they all lack concern for the memory of what happened.

But why are we throwing stones at only Croatia, then?

It may be due to my as-of-yet rudimentary study of the area's history that I believe this but, in my opinion, Croatia gets all the crap. Are we still in 2012, penalising/accusing an entire nation (4+ million people) of the same kind of mentality as Ustaše, which at its height was only 60k strong?


Some crazy nationalists are completely denying it. The Church is also full of people who are denying it.

Keyword some, as with any atrocity, you will have deniers. I'd love more information on this bit, though. :) Do you have any sources I could check out?

[Omsk]

A couple? Even the lowest estimates (I've seen, anyway) are in the 30 thousands, no?



Yes i know,but some right-wing people in Croatia are acting as if even less people died,nothing surprising there,typical nationalist rhetoric.



Let's go back to your original statement about the republics as a whole. You say they all lack concern for the memory of what happened.


Yes,people in all of the republics slowly forget {newer generations dont study a lot about it,and are not interested at the subject} what happened,ignorance is rising,right-wing politics and conservativism.

Grim old future.



But why are we throwing stones at only Croatia, then?

Are we?I thought we were attacking right-wingers in Croatia.

All right,we could attack right wing nutjobs in Serbia.

Its sad that there is so much Nazis in a country that gave so much people against Hitler.


It may be due to my as-of-yet rudimentary study of the area's history that I believe this but, in my opinion, Croatia gets all the crap. Are we still in 2012, penalising/accusing an entire nation (5+ million people) of the same kind of mentality as Ustaše, which at its height was only 60k strong?


You definitely dont know enough.Croatia does not get "all the crap" but right wingers in Croatia should be attacked.Same goes for Serbia.The Ustase had many supporters,only the military units in 1944 had about 100000 men.Not to mention the home-guard and other German helpers.



Do you have any sources I could check out?

Just google it.

[GatesofLenin]

Calm down everyone, let's not start another civil war. The conditions of numerous war monuments around the world are disgusting. Modern society is brought up to just look at the present and to forget the past. For example, look how the young people are treating the 3000+ year old mummy statues in Egypt. :thumbdown:

[Omsk]

http://ikono.tv/ikonotv/wp-content/uploads/sofia3.jpg

This also made me quite angry.

On the other hand,the monuments mentioned above are not in a good shape,but for an example,there are many monuments that have been covered with Nazi symbols and grafiti.

I saw a statue of a Red Army soldier with a huge swastika on his head,and even,after some time,no efforts were made to repaint the figure,so the swastika remained there,burning the memory of the veterans who would pass near it every day.

[The Young Pioneer]

You definitely dont know enough.

As I've stated numerous times, oh Omniscient One.



Croatia does not get "all the crap" but right wingers in Croatia should be attacked.Same goes for Serbia.

Oh, equality, great! Thanks.


The Ustase had many supporters,only the military units in 1944 had about 100000 men.Not to mention the home-guard and other German helpers.

:laugh: I'll just shut up now before I'm banned for being accused of nationalism involving a country that's not even mine.


Just google it.

How helpful you are!

Also- Agreed, GatesofLenin.

[Omsk]

I'll just shut up now before I'm banned for being accused of nationalism involving a country that's not even mine.


What?Nobody is going to accuse you of nationalism.
{- More precise information about the Ustase terror units:
By 1944 Pavelić was almost totally reliant on Ustaše units, now 100,000 strong, formed in Brigades 1 to 20, Recruit Training Brigades 21 to 24, three divisions, two railway brigades, one defensive brigade and the new Mobile Brigade. In November 1944 the Army was effectively put under Ustaše control when the [[Armed Forces of the Independent State of Croatia were combined with the units of the Ustaše to form eighteen divisions, comprising 13 infantry, two mountain and two assault divisions and one replacement division, each with its own organic artillery and other support units. There were also several armoured units

[Thirsty Crow]

There is an imprtant political reason why Kontra engaged in the game of numbers, one which he explicitly stated, but it seems that some "communists" incapable of grasping the basics of such a position.

To argue that hundreds of thousands were massacred in Jasenovac is to swallow the load of shit that is nationalist propaganda, and further than that, it's not true. To repeat what shouldn't be repeated, lest Valter come marching in with idiotic accusations, no one here is engaging in any kind of a defence of any kind of nationalism, least of all of Ustashe fascism. To call the bluff is not to engage in such acts.

But Omsk's problem is that they are being, probably deliberately, obfuscatory in their rhetoric (because it's hard to disentangle "NDH" and "Jasenovac", not distinguishing from casualties of war and executed, tortured prisoners, while the user keeps asserting that "hundreds of thousands dies at Jasenovac and NDH" so go figure).

The bottom line being that communists shouldn't fall for bourgeois propaganda and spread it round like ignorants. Something which is obviously not an easy task for some people.

[Omsk]

To argue that hundreds of thousands were massacred in Jasenovac is to swallow the load of shit that is nationalist propaganda, and further than that, it's not true.


What am i reading..



they are being, probably deliberately, obfuscatory in their rhetoric


No actually,they didnt read my post,thats all.

I said that about 600000 people died in the NDH.A lot of them in Jasenovac.

Now,should we go into the subject of the failure of some people to accept the past of their country,is a story i'd rather skip.



The bottom line being that communists shouldn't fall for bourgeois propaganda and spread it round like ignorants.


Lets forget things for a moment,how much,in your opinion,did die in the genocide?

[Thirsty Crow]

What am i reading...Words assembled into sentences.


No actually,they didnt read my post,thats all.
I said that about 600000 people died in the NDH.A lot of them in Jasenovac.
Now, the story shifts a bit. Moralist panic, ready to sound the ustasha alarm bell, now it's "a lot". Yes, a lot of people were killed, massacred, tortured in fascist concentration camps, and it would be "a lot" if 10 people were killed in that way, but it wasn't 10.

And let's see whether I read your posts:


Please,stick with reality.Hundreds of thousands died in the NDH,and in Jasenovac concentration camp.When it's time, after the comma, to clarify just how many people were killed there, then we've got a full stop, also without distinguishing men killed in combat from concentration camps victims.
But such lack of clarity is excpected from your demagogic kind.


Now,should we go into the subject of the failure of some people to accept the past of their country,is a story i'd rather skip.And you're a coward for obfuscating the implied accusation of nationalism. Wonderful.

Just to set things straight, I have no country, and for a very long time I felt like this. It's really pathetic to accuse someone who accepts the Simon Wiesenthal Center's estimated death toll, as realistic and approximative enough, in such a sneaky way. But I might have been less than clear on the issue. It doesn't matter whether it's true that 85 000 or 77 000 or 99 000 people have been killed there. It's atrocious, it's fascism, it's capitalism.
What matter here are political motives for numbers' juggling (since it's obvious that you don't accept the numbers which were sourced by Kontra), and the consequences of adopting the element of nationalists' propaganda. If you didn't do the latter, and it's kinda hard to see if you did cause being vague, elusive and sneaky is obviously your game, then I apologize sincerely.

[Omsk]

Now, the story shifts a bit. Moralist panic, ready to sound the ustasha alarm bell, now it's "a lot". Yes, a lot of people were killed, massacred, tortured in fascist concentration camps, and it would be "a lot" if 10 people were killed in that way, but it wasn't 10.



How much were killed in Jasenovac,Stara Gradiska,Gospic,Lepoglava,Caprag,Sisak,Gradina,Jad ovno,Jablanac,Mlaka,Loborgrad?
Only in Jasenovac,about 3000-4000 people were captured there daily,and only 1053 remained alive.They,decided that they would rather die fighting the Ustase and tried a breakout.{The poor people were led by Cedomir Huber,Dragutin Skrgatic,Jovo Zivkovic} and on the 22. April 1945 at 10h and 15 mintues broke trough the doors of the main building shouting "Comrades forward!"


When it's time, after the comma, to clarify just how many people were killed there, then we've got a full stop, also without distinguishing men killed in combat from concentration camps victims.
But such lack of clarity is excpected from your demagogic kind.


Combat?The Ustase terrorists mostly slaughtered poor civilians,who could hardly defend themselves.



What matter here are political motives for numbers' juggling (since it's obvious that you don't accept the numbers which were sourced by Kontra), and the consequences of adopting the element of nationalists' propaganda. If you didn't do the latter, and it's kinda hard to see if you did cause being vague, elusive and sneaky is obviously your game, then I apologize sincerely.




There were hardly any political reasons here..

To make myself clear again,i did not accuse anyone of being a nationalist.

[ColonelCossack]

http://ikono.tv/ikonotv/wp-content/uploads/sofia3.jpg


I saw that; it's disgusting.

[Bandito]

I hate arguing numbers.

From my point of view, if one person died just because he/she wasn't suitable for the state - it's enough.

Some sources say this, some sources say that. I agree that Serbians (nationalists, which is important to notice, and only Menoccio pointed that part) pump up the victim count, but Croatian authorities (which is also important to notice), minimize the count. Fuck them both.

Than again, I can't believe Kontrazzvedka is arguing this from a bourgeois perspective. So what if Josipović vistits Jasenovac and defines it a massarce? Does it make it more of a massarce it was? The this is, politicans do all sorts of shit to make their financers happy. And neither of us should be applaud their confessions as our 'victories'.

[Искра]

From my point of view, if one person died just because he/she wasn't suitable for the state - it's enough.
I agree, but it's not about state. It's about nature of capitalist crisis which put war machines roll...


Than again, I can't believe Kontrazzvedka is arguing this from a bourgeois perspective. So what if Josipović vistits Jasenovac and defines it a massarce? Does it make it more of a massarce it was? The this is, politicans do all sorts of shit to make their financers happy. And neither of us should be applaud their confessions as our 'victories'.
I'm not arguing anything from bourgeois perspective. I've just said that Jasenovac is important part of Croatian "nationaly unity" rethorics and ideology. Which is why politicians visit places such as Jasenovac, or Bleiburg on the other hand. Politicans do this because this rethorics is part of modern day Croatian nationalism, which is why anti-fascism is part of Croatian Constitution. So, I've just put some things in the right place and I'm not arguing anything, but that I take no sides in imperialist wars or in nationalist rethorics (such as pumping number is).

The only side I'm on is side of international proletariat. Fuck yeah.

Also, Jasenovac monument is in a good (or at least decent) shape, comparing to other monuments. Not that I care much of them anyway... but still, I don't like when people discuss this topics in a way that they spark nationalism.

[khlib]

But why are we throwing stones at only Croatia, then?

It may be due to my as-of-yet rudimentary study of the area's history that I believe this but, in my opinion, Croatia gets all the crap. Are we still in 2012, penalising/accusing an entire nation (4+ million people) of the same kind of mentality as Ustaše, which at its height was only 60k strong?

Liza, I am just curious, but where are you from? In the U.S., I find that most news articles and academics are very pro-Croatia and anti-Serbia in their rhetoric (especially regarding the recent wars, but also in reference to WWII and the SFRY too).

[The Young Pioneer]

I agree. However, where I am from has little bearing on my opinion of things, I'm afraid, considering I only lived there for the first 18 months of my life. I've lived in many places, met many people, and am entirely aware of how Western rhetoric displays things concerning the Balkan region.

If you assume because of opinions I express that I only have Western media to back me up, you're sorely mistaken; I hardly ever agree with the West, and on the occasion I do, it's more coincidence than anything else. :)

[Искра]

It's not about agreeing with West, or East, or Croats, or Serbs... All these shits are just nationalist rethorics.

[khlib]

I wasn't referring to any of that. I was just wondering in what contexts you think "Croats get all the crap."

[soviechetnik]

Hello.This is my first post on this forum.
I found it by accident,Googling this quite popular online subject.
I also had to post and tell my own story for all people to see what I,my family and my people went through.

First of all,us Serbs have been horribly demonized by the imperialist West especially during the 90s Wars where Serbs fought against Croatian Neo-Ustashe aggression, brutal Islamic Fundamentalist genocide in Bosnia,Albanian irredentism and shameless NATO aggression.As you know,the Western modus operandi is to blacken its enemies by propaganda. This happened with Iraq,Serbia,Libya and so on. Croatian Neo-Ustashe fascist genociders and Albanian terrorists never got proper "coverage" in the Western media which was all too busy slandering the Serbs and being silent against crimes against us. Therefore some of the comments in this thread I have to disagree with: like the ones about "Croats getting all the crap etc."
CROATS DID NOT GET ONE PERCENT OF THE "CRAP" THEY SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN!

My family was ethnically cleansead,together with 250 000 fellow Serbs in an illegal and unprovoked invasion of fascist Croatia on the Serbian Krajina in 1995.!
And how often does the West talk about this?

Please,you have to understand that things are not that black and white.Serbs are not the "supreme evil" as the Western propaganda machine portrayed us.
They,forces of capitalism,aggression and imperialism gave propaganda boost to their allies:Croats first of all, and Serbs of course had to be slandered.

I will be glad to answer further questions,if anyone's interested to hear the "other side of the story".

Regards.

[The Young Pioneer]

It's not about agreeing with West, or East, or Croats, or Serbs... All these shits are just nationalist rethorics.

I wasn't agreeing with anyone, just exemplifying my opinion of Western media in general. I'd hope people value forming their own opinions on such things, rather than "siding" anywhere.

khlib- No one's told me Croats get all the crap, that was simply my observation based on [not enough] basic research/discussions on the subject. My mind is open to changing that opinion, of course; as I've mentioned numerous times, I don't know nearly enough, and have really appreciated learning from members here on various subjects (I'm sure you've seen some threads where I ask questions, or even change my mind after someone informs me of something contrary to my prior belief).

It was never my intention to start a thread war, and I'm sorry that my question to Omsk seems to have started something. (Again, blaming me here, not Omsk.) I also wasn't accusing Omsk of calling me a nationalist; I was worried that my own rhetoric would come across as such to the Admin when really I'm just lacking enough information.

Sovietchetnik- I saw your introductory post, so welcome, firstly. Second, I agree with you that the West has at times demonised Serbia when politically convenient, and people here on the forum advised me to see Weight of Chains, which was very informative. I'm sorry for what happened to your family and country-men due to Croatian or Albanian violence. However, I'm equally sympathetic to those proletariats in each Balkan country who suffered violence at the hands of each opposing nation. I agree that the West did not properly publicise what these other groups were doing. I don't think anyone on Revleft (or at least in this thread) has taken the media's viewpoint that Serbia is a supreme evil. However, I'm not sure that anyone really "gets" your need to have a username with "chetnik" in it. All the same, my personal intention here is to learn, so if you'd like to share further with us, that's great.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone.

Peace, mates.

[Bandito]

Hello.This is my first post on this forum.
I found it by accident,Googling this quite popular online subject.
I also had to post and tell my own story for all people to see what I,my family and my people went through.

First of all,us Serbs have been horribly demonized by the imperialist West especially during the 90s Wars where Serbs fought against Croatian Neo-Ustashe aggression, brutal Islamic Fundamentalist genocide in Bosnia,Albanian irredentism and shameless NATO aggression.As you know,the Western modus operandi is to blacken its enemies by propaganda. This happened with Iraq,Serbia,Libya and so on. Croatian Neo-Ustashe fascist genociders and Albanian terrorists never got proper "coverage" in the Western media which was all too busy slandering the Serbs and being silent against crimes against us. Therefore some of the comments in this thread I have to disagree with: like the ones about "Croats getting all the crap etc."
CROATS DID NOT GET ONE PERCENT OF THE "CRAP" THEY SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN!

My family was ethnically cleansead,together with 250 000 fellow Serbs in an illegal and unprovoked invasion of fascist Croatia on the Serbian Krajina in 1995.!
And how often does the West talk about this?

Please,you have to understand that things are not that black and white.Serbs are not the "supreme evil" as the Western propaganda machine portrayed us.
They,forces of capitalism,aggression and imperialism gave propaganda boost to their allies:Croats first of all, and Serbs of course had to be slandered.

I will be glad to answer further questions,if anyone's interested to hear the "other side of the story".

Regards.

Oh piss off.