Log in

View Full Version : Debating with a free-market capitalist.



Hexen
26th January 2012, 23:01
Recently I've been "debating" with a Freemarket libertarian on this youtube video on the Borg (http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=WZEJ4OJTgg8&page=1) (which you may remember from this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/individuality-social-constructi-t159254/index.html?p=2338980#post2338980) that I said that the borg represent the demonizing on egalitarianism) with a person named "residentzombie" which ironically promotes this metaphor....


The Borg is the concept of collectivism and why collectivism is so bad. Individualism is what must be protected and defended and not group mentality. There can be no group without individuals. Every individual lives his life for his own purpose. Humans are NOT sacrifical animals for the enjoyment of others (socialism). You should check out G Edward Griffin for more insight into collectivism vs individualism. Ayn Rand is another good source.

Of course I replied (as zonolio1):


Spoken like a true capitalist propagandist. The Borg are actually a demonization of egalitarianism or 'collectivism' they say (since we should really abandoned the "individualism" vs "collectivism" dichotomy) because capitalists or libertarians like yourself are too afraid to join cooperating society while you simply want to be left alone want to alienate and exploit others. Also Ayn Rand is serial killer fetishist.

and he replied:


I agree Rand was a lover of Irgun terrorists, but that doesn't mean she was wrong about everything there young collectivist. To the contrary, the free market is we the people. Through supply vs demand of your fellow man and due to scarcity of the product prices are set. The free market is people coming together to produce more products for the consumer which in turn creates wealth. Read 'I Pencil'

I replied


Actually your forgetting the fact the term "we the people" actually means the wealthy as written (since the constitution and the bill of rights was actually originally written for the bourgeoisie not the productive classes which is further evident that we are not writing the laws but they are) . Also “free market capitalism” is an ideological weapon wielded by wealthy elites in Western countries to preserve their privileged lifestyles.

he replies


We the People should actually say We the States. The States formed the federal government, not the other way around, but this is another matter and I don't wish to sway to it at this time. To the contrary what you described as free market capitalism is actually fascism and/or corporatism. We the consumers are the market. The consumer through demand and supply dictates to business what they want produced. Tell me what force Bill Gates has used to force you to buy his inventions?The globalists that have brainwashed you with memes to give up your freedoms to the government to further become a serf, you better start to wake up before this country is ruined. If you have a free mind (which I highly doubt) here is a good debate against the memes you learn in gov't funded schools, gov't sponsored and funded TV, gov't officials who desire more power, etc.: watch?v=bwEcH7HGSZY&context=C3*62e00aADOEgsToPDskJRIiJmR9xVVo*DabFIkjy MX


I reply


This is a common argument among conspiracy theorists like yourself that anyone who disagrees with you are "brainwashed" which your now retorting ad homenium/character assassination attacks. Problem is seems like you want just want to raise to the top and become rich yourself while you don't want the "government" interfering with your business modules. Also there is no such thing as "Free Markets". In short your nothing more than a Right Wing Libertarian.

He replies


Is it a common argument for you that whenever someone tells you you worship tyrants that you call them conspiracy theorists? It's well documented the plans they have for the world, but I guess you are too busy playing with your PS3 and watching Snooky to learn what is really going on in the world with the psychos leading most governments. I tell you you are brainwashed to get you to open your mind, but as I said earlier I don't think your mind can be opened so what's the point?

Of course here's his other quote.


Government and statist try to use collectivist slogans and propoganda to make you think that the state is the most important element of society and it is not. The state only exists to protect the rights of individuals, individuals don't exist to serve the state.

Any further response to this person or am I wasting my time?

Revolution starts with U
26th January 2012, 23:06
You should have started here:

The Federation is a genuine communist system, no doubt about it. They actually have very bad relations with the only capitalist emire in the Star Trek saga (can't remember their name). And in one episode they wake a capitalist up from deep freeze and basically laugh at him for a whole episode because he can't understand how a society works without profit.

Socialism is not collectivism, per se. It's a rejection of the dichotomy between the two. We are both collectivists and individualists, and this is good. What socialism does is recognzie that the self-interests of most people is in a stateless classless society.

RevSpetsnaz
26th January 2012, 23:12
I would say youre wasting your time. All hes doing is regurgitating the utter shite hes heard from Rush Limbaugh,Glenn Beck and Ann Coulter.

Revolution starts with U
26th January 2012, 23:13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi The empire of "free enterprise." They were originally designed to be the main antagonists... but people found them too boring. So the Borg was created.

Lanky Wanker
26th January 2012, 23:59
Two reasons I wouldn't bother continuing this pointless conversation:


Every individual lives his life for his own purpose. Humans are NOT sacrifical animals for the enjoyment of others (socialism).

I suppose you'd steal money from your mother to buy some cocaine then, seeing as you only live for yourself. He's giving off the classic stealing vs giving argument, which means he doesn't have any basic understanding of socialism/communism. Not stealing ≠ giving.


The state only exists to protect the rights of individuals, individuals don't exist to serve the state.

:rolleyes:

runequester
27th January 2012, 05:41
Once the term "statist" is thrown out, your randroid alarm should be going off full alert.

Hexen
27th January 2012, 19:56
I would say youre wasting your time. All hes doing is regurgitating the utter shite hes heard from Rush Limbaugh,Glenn Beck and Ann Coulter.

Actually he just responded with this quote after somewhat copying yours (of course I deleted the original comment but he responded anyway).


Limbaugh, Coulter, and Beck are all neo conservatives. They are not true conservatives nor are they classic liberals. They worship Israel and the Irgun terrorists that run Israel. You see it's Israel and the Irgun that did 9/11 and 7/7, but again your knowledge on these matters is 0 since you live in a state of ignorance. Illuminate your brain and open it up to what others have to say. You are only lying to yourself if you don't. I will be 1,000 times more prepared than you will.

RevSpetsnaz
27th January 2012, 20:14
So hes an irrational conspiracy theorist as well?

rylasasin
27th January 2012, 20:26
Ugh, youtube comment "debates." The epitome of pointlessness and futility.

I know I got into a debate with a captialist propagandist on another star trek related clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzqW0YaN2ho) (watch?v=pzqW0YaN2ho, since I don't have linking powers yet Oh hey wadda know I JUST reached 25 posts so I can link stuff now! :D) by the name of howardz43. Human nature arguements, "capitalists are working hard" bullcrap, "capitalists are good people who overcome their "bad human nature"" nonsense, Individualism vs collectivism strawmen, pretty much your usual shit. Hell, he and some other dudes are STILL going at it over there :rolleyes:

Eventually though I decided to just quit feeding the troll, since as RevSpetsnaz said it's a complete waste of time. Well, that and I'm admittedly not very good at debating people. :blushing:

Polyphonic Foxes
2nd February 2012, 00:58
If the person you're debating with can't even define socialism or capitalism then you know it's better to stop debating and call them out on how little knowledge they have.

NoMasters
2nd February 2012, 01:50
I am assuming his understanding of socialism is that of F.A. Hayek in the Road to Serfdom.

It will be hard to debate him since he has closed his mind completely on what socialism means, and is strictly following the ideals of neoliberal utopianism....

Strannik
4th February 2012, 15:44
Since Star Trek movies have established that Borg have a Queen, they aren't really a collective superorganism in the first place. They are a faceless horde in the service of an individual. Isn't that the dream of capitalists - to become a Borg Queen? :P

But seriously, I think Marxist socialism is about peace between individual and society, not destruction of individual or society. For the Borg, every individual is shaped to serve the Borg as a whole, like cells in a body. For Marx its "free development of each is the condition for free development of all - i.e. collective freedom is the result of individual freedoms". For Borg its "you will be assimilated. Resistance is futile". Therefore, Federation is closer to vision of Marxist communism than the Borg.