The Bootstrap Delusion

[RGacky3]

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This is the exact thing that the majority of wealthy people never think about when they think about how they got wealthy. They tend to ignore ALL the privileges they may not even consider privileges.

[Aphex]

WOW. Certain classes are unfairly advantaged. Who cares. No matter how you attempt to structure a society, a hierarchy will evolve. The fraudulent argument you imply is that since rich families have an advantage, then all poor people have no responsibility for their own position in life. Its like they have no free will. If this was true you wouldn't see poor people all the time becoming rich. Was I born rich? No. Will millionaires always have more than me? Yes. Should I sit around complaining about the world instead of taking responsibility for my own destiny? No. Instead of getting out and trying to better your lives with the cards you are dealt you sit around crying on the internet and blaming everyone else for your problems like pathetic crybabies. Oh and your crappy economic policies you introduce to make things more fair actually make things worse for poor people.

[Revolution starts with U]

I'm pretty sure all he did was point out that Romney didn't make it on his own. But you keep having this sociopathic judgemental complex :thumbup1:

I was born poor. I'm doing fine now. I still recognize that rich people saying they "did it on their own" is a load of crap designed to justify their oligarchical position in society.

But you keep doing what you do. By the way... how do those boots taste?

[Black_Rose]

WOW. Certain classes are unfairly advantaged. Who cares. No matter how you attempt to structure a society, a hierarchy will evolve. The fraudulent argument you imply is that since rich families have an advantage, then all poor people have no responsibility for their own position in life. Its like they have no free will. If this was true you wouldn't see poor people all the time becoming rich. Was I born rich? No. Will millionaires always have more than me? Yes. Should I sit around complaining about the world instead of taking responsibility for my own destiny? No. Instead of getting out and trying to better your lives with the cards you are dealt you sit around crying on the internet and blaming everyone else for your problems like pathetic crybabies. Oh and your crappy economic policies you introduce to make things more fair actually make things worse for poor people.

Could you tell me how it is in your self-interest to actually defend the system or attack those who critique it? Is there anything superior, in your perspective, about the system that makes it worth defending?

[Aphex]

I'm pretty sure all he did was point out that Romney didn't make it on his own. But you keep having this sociopathic judgemental complex :thumbup1:

I was born poor. I'm doing fine now. I still recognize that rich people saying they "did it on their own" is a load of crap designed to justify their oligarchical position in society.

But you keep doing what you do. By the way... how do those boots taste?

Huh? Boot? I've never tasted a boot ... I guess you must be referring to some metaphorical capitalist boot that's keeping my poor ass down. No, I'm not in the habit of inventing reasons for why I can't succeed in life.

[Ocean Seal]

Also isn't it kind of ironic that they call it pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps, when in fact that saying was originally meant to say that you were attempting something impossible?

[Aphex]

Could you tell me how it is in your self-interest to actually defend the system or attack those who critique it? Is there anything superior, in your perspective, about the system that makes it worth defending?

Superior to what? Superior to your communism? Why would I rather live in a Capitalist country that a communist country? Oh, wow, let me think here ..
perhaps because every capitalist country is a nicer place to live with more opportunity than every communist one? :laugh::laugh: Maybe if YOU have such a problem with "the system" YOU shoule MOVE to a place attempting to implement the policies you endorse? :laugh::rolleyes:

I am ALL FOR critiquing society. But you guys have NO ANSWERS. You have nothing but a record of spreading misery in your attempts to improve society. Your credit rating is ZZZ+. The funniest thing is that the capitalist pigs you hate so much have done FAR MORE to improve the lot of poor people than you guys.

[Revolution starts with U]

Huh? Boot? I've never tasted a boot ... I guess you must be referring to some metaphorical capitalist boot that's keeping my poor ass down. No, I'm not in the habit of inventing reasons for why I can't succeed in life.

We share something in common, neither am I. But my success in life in no way justifies the position of the capitalist. See, I do for myself, while still recognizing there is injustice in the world. You (probably don't) do well for yourself and desperately search for ways to feel better than someone else.

[Aphex]

We share something in common, neither am I. But my success in life in no way justifies the position of the capitalist. See, I do for myself, while still recognizing there is injustice in the world. You (probably don't) do well for yourself and desperately search for ways to feel better than someone else.

Everyone recognises that there is "injustice in the world", genius. The point is what are you gonna do about it? The solutions you propose have been proved wrong in theory and practice more times than can be counted. Yet you still keep blabbing on, "oppression!" "revolution!" "communism!", like a broken record. Broken records have excuses for being rigid and inflexible in thought because they are inanimate objects. You guys are supposed to be thinking, sentient beings, yet you just keep crapping on with the same ol' lies, why?

[Platonic Sword]

WOW. Certain classes are unfairly advantaged. Who cares. No matter how you attempt to structure a society, a hierarchy will evolve. The fraudulent argument you imply is that since rich families have an advantage, then all poor people have no responsibility for their own position in life. Its like they have no free will. If this was true you wouldn't see poor people all the time becoming rich. Was I born rich? No. Will millionaires always have more than me? Yes. Should I sit around complaining about the world instead of taking responsibility for my own destiny? No. Instead of getting out and trying to better your lives with the cards you are dealt you sit around crying on the internet and blaming everyone else for your problems like pathetic crybabies. Oh and your crappy economic policies you introduce to make things more fair actually make things worse for poor people.

I'm inclined to agree. I was born into what would be described by those who like to think in Marx's terms as the proletarian class. Perhaps even the "underclass". I never found it very difficult to get ahead in life. I would say the upper class is closed to most people, but I have never found the middle class to be very far out of reach (should I desire a middle class life, which I don't). The "means of production" that Marx describes (at least in what I've read so far, which is little) are more narrow than what exists in the current world. Marxists act like you need to own a factory or land to generate heaps of wealth. But I was earning more than most adults as a 16yo writing software and on various related "black markets". The means of production was just a $100 computer that my school gave me for free. Yes, I was living on private land that my parents owned while I did it, but I could have and would have done it when I was 21 and renting. Owning land or very expensive stuff has very little to do with my ability to be productive. This is because the means of production was and is in fact my own mind.

My major problem with capitalism is that it is a very impure form of social Darwinism. The uber-rich get most of their money playing a money moving game that is arbitrary and not even very interesting in my opinion. It's a meritocratic system in the sense that the best at it make the most money, but the people playing it are only a small proportion of society. Those extreme rewards should be spread around amongst the brightest in every endeavor (but remain closed to scummy bottom dwellers whose low rung on the social ladder is in accordance with nature ). I would even be happy to see my own personal field (IT) remunerated less in favor of art and literature and the humanities in general, which are being phased out in favor of law/business/engineering departments.

[Black_Rose]

My major problem with capitalism is that it is a very impure form of social Darwinism. The uber-rich get most of their money playing a money moving game that is arbitrary and not even very interesting in my opinion. It's a meritocratic system in the sense that the best at it make the most money, but the people playing it are only a small proportion of society. Those extreme rewards should be spread around amongst the brightest in every endeavor (but remain closed to scummy bottom dwellers whose low rung on the social ladder is in accordance with nature ). I would even be happy to see my own personal field (IT) remunerated less in favor of art and literature and the humanities in general, which are being phased out in favor of law/business/engineering departments.


Thanks for confirming what I said earlier about you:


You believe that the strong should subjugate the weak; that's what you believe and why you oppose the left, in general, not merely revolutionary leftists, but even mainstream liberals and social democrats who want to assist the poor (who you regard as economically and intellectually unfit, presumably because they lack general intelligence as espoused by HBDers) through social programs. Didn't I describe the essence of your worldview, not merely construct a strawman?

But you said this in a direct reply:


Your description of a long way from summarizing the essence of my world view, but that is not your fault - my summary was very brief and it would be impossible for anyone to derive anything less crude. I won't attempt to convince you of any merits regarding my outlook; naturally I'd fail, and I assume if you were interested in the subtleties of my kind of philosophy you would have sought it out yourself. I'll argue my views if they become and obstacle to understanding Marx, though.

Nothing subtle, I was correct. You hate the poor and believe they are not worthy of mercy.

[Platonic Sword]

You hate the poor and believe they are not worthy of mercy.

I support higher wages for the poor and in the case of the unemployed free medical care, free housing, free education, free money and everything else on the Liberal agenda.

[Black_Rose]

I support higher wages for the poor as well as access to free medical care, free housing, free free education, free money and everything else on the Liberal agenda.

Why would you call them "scummy bottom dwellers" then? Liberals or social democrats typically don't refer to the poor (who, by definition, are on the lowest rung on the economic ladder) that way.

Yes, you were being sarcastic (although I initially thought you were a Bismarckian welfare statist), but I didn't read giving the poor "free money" which is not a mainstream "liberal" view, but a conservative caricature of "left-liberal" politics. You were not sincere in your above post, because it is hard to fathom how one can abruptly change their views.

[Platonic Sword]

Why would you call them "scummy bottom dwellers" then?

Because they are. Just because I consider them lower forms of life doesn't mean I want to see them starve or live in misery.

[Metacomet]

WOW. Certain classes are unfairly advantaged. Who cares. No matter how you attempt to structure a society, a hierarchy will evolve. The fraudulent argument you imply is that since rich families have an advantage, then all poor people have no responsibility for their own position in life. Its like they have no free will. If this was true you wouldn't see poor people all the time becoming rich. Was I born rich? No. Will millionaires always have more than me? Yes. Should I sit around complaining about the world instead of taking responsibility for my own destiny? No. Instead of getting out and trying to better your lives with the cards you are dealt you sit around crying on the internet and blaming everyone else for your problems like pathetic crybabies. Oh and your crappy economic policies you introduce to make things more fair actually make things worse for poor people.

Quality post from a quality poster.

Restrict plz


You know what would make things better for poor people? Trickle down. That should succeed any day now. I should feel it trickling down. Yep, any second now.

[Metacomet]

Because they are. Just because I consider them lower forms of life doesn't mean I want to see them starve or live in misery.

What form of eugenics do you prefer? Forced sterilization? or just segregation?

[Platonic Sword]

What form of eugenics do you prefer? Forced sterilization? or just segregation?

I don't support eugenics. A population control strategy a la the glorious communist China would be a good idea though, given overpopulation. Of course, it would be a drop in the ocean unless we could get sub-Saharan Africa to adopt it.

[Caj]

Certain classes are unfairly advantaged. Who cares.

Those who care about ridiculous notions like "equality" and "fairness".


No matter how you attempt to structure a society, a hierarchy will evolve.

Of course, because that's what human societies were like for over 95% of our evolutionary history. :rolleyes:


The fraudulent argument you imply is that since rich families have an advantage, then all poor people have no responsibility for their own position in life. Its like they have no free will.

That's because they don't.


If this was true you wouldn't see poor people all the time becoming rich.

And we don't.


Was I born rich? No. Will millionaires always have more than me? Yes. Should I sit around complaining about the world instead of taking responsibility for my own destiny? No. Instead of getting out and trying to better your lives with the cards you are dealt you sit around crying on the internet and blaming everyone else for your problems like pathetic crybabies.

And what is it you're doing exactly?


Oh and your crappy economic policies you introduce to make things more fair actually make things worse for poor people.

Yes, because we all know how much better off the Cuban poor were under Batista. :rolleyes:

[Revolution starts with U]

Everyone recognises that there is "injustice in the world",
Do they?

genius. Thank you

The point is what are you gonna do about it? Advocate and agitatefor worker empowerment.

The solutions you propose have been proved wrong in theory and practice more times than can be counted.
Have they? Name one.

Yet you still keep blabbing on, "oppression!" "revolution!"
Is that wrong when everyone does it, or just people like me?

"communism!", like a broken record.
I'm not sure I've said communism to you once.

Broken records have excuses for being rigid and inflexible in thought because they are inanimate objects.
How do inanimate objects have excuses? They can't talk.


You guys are supposed to be thinking, sentient beings, yet you just keep crapping on with the same ol' lies, why?

Did I lie? Show me.
Do you realize how many times I have heard your exact arguments from other people? Are you sure you want to go down the "broken record" path?

[Revolution starts with U]

But I was earning more than most adults as a 16yo writing software and on various related "black markets". The means of production was just a $100 computer that my school gave me for free. Yes, I was living on private land that my parents owned while I did it, but I could have and would have done it when I was 21 and renting.

Would anyone else agree this is really really ironic, considering the OP? :lol:

[Platonic Sword]

Everyone recognises that there is "injustice in the world", genius. The point is what are you gonna do about it? The solutions you propose have been proved wrong in theory and practice more times than can be counted. Yet you still keep blabbing on, "oppression!" "revolution!" "communism!", like a broken record. Broken records have excuses for being rigid and inflexible in thought because they are inanimate objects. You guys are supposed to be thinking, sentient beings, yet you just keep crapping on with the same ol' lies, why?

I can't say that they are like a broken record. Most people on the far left that I talk to these days seem very diverged from the left of old and eager to divorce their views from "communism" and especially states that have said they are communist. It might not be like that around this forum, which seems to be the hammer and sickle capital of the internet, but overall that's the picture I get. Also a lot of left wing politics has been submerged under the relativist philosophies "post modernism" etc. They still claim to be left wing, but they are more worried about racism and sexism (and thinking up new ism's) than economic categories . These people are much worse in my opinion than old fashioned leftists - at least they can be reasoned with. The new post modern left hide in a shroud of language puzzles and unfalsifiable assertions.

[Black_Rose]

Most people on the far left that I talk to these days seem very diverged from the left of old and eager to divorce their views from "communism" and especially states that have said they are communist.



I am a Marxist-Leninist, and I am willing to defend the Eastern Bloc states and extant states like Cuba.
---

As for myself, I am not sanguine about the prospect of a Marxist-Leninist government in the United States, but I am convinced that capitalism is inherently oppressive, bellicose, exploitative, and alienating and that socialism (with the exception of the property-owning classes) is benign. The former communist states did not fail because of their lack of civil liberties, democracy, private property, or a free market, but were victims of US imperialism.

[RGacky3]

WOW. Certain classes are unfairly advantaged. Who cares. No matter how you attempt to structure a society, a hierarchy will evolve. The fraudulent argument you imply is that since rich families have an advantage, then all poor people have no responsibility for their own position in life. Its like they have no free will.

Thats not what I implied at all.

We all have a responsibility, so if your work is'nt paying right, SHUT IT DOWN, if your unemployed occupy, get together and attack the system that privileges a few.


If this was true you wouldn't see poor people all the time becoming rich.

You don't see it all the time, a broken clock is right twice a day.


No. Instead of getting out and trying to better your lives with the cards you are dealt you sit around crying on the internet and blaming everyone else for your problems like pathetic crybabies. Oh and your crappy economic policies you introduce to make things more fair actually make things worse for poor people.

You DON'T KNOW what economic policies I introduce, you have no idea, again your ignorant.

Its not about blaiming people, its aobut understanding the system.

Also it DOES help poor people, the country I live in has implimented many socialist reforms back in the 60s and there is almost NO poverty 2% unemployment (dispite the fact that you can live pretty well without working), very high productivity and so on.

BTW, anyone else notice that the new capitalists here have NO ability to argue economics, or policies.

Its all ingorant/angry "POOR PEOPLE WANT MY MONEY, THey are lazy and stink blablabla."

[Metacomet]

I don't support eugenics. A population control strategy a la the glorious communist China would be a good idea though, given overpopulation. Of course, it would be a drop in the ocean unless we could get sub-Saharan Africa to adopt it.


China isn't communist. Good try though. I can call myself a doctor, doesn't mean I am one just because I call myself one.

So should American evangelicals that have 6 kids be restricted under this "population control" or does it only apply to Africans and Asians?

[Aphex]

its aobut understanding the system.



We do understand the system buddy. We understand that it's not perfect but far better than all the idealistic bullshit communists try for and ruin everything in the process. You're not the only one who's ever read an economics book. You're just wrong.

[Aphex]

I am a Marxist-Leninist, and I am willing to defend the Eastern Bloc states and extant states like Cuba.
---

As for myself, I am not sanguine about the prospect of a Marxist-Leninist government in the United States, but I am convinced that capitalism is inherently oppressive, bellicose, exploitative, and alienating and that socialism (with the exception of the property-owning classes) is benign. The former communist states did not fail because of their lack of civil liberties, democracy, private property, or a free market, but were victims of US imperialism.


Dear lord, some red terror in the United States ... that's just what we need. I'm not sanguine about the reds taking over either. Thankfully we have a functioning democracy that would never elect you delusional fascists.