Howard Zinn

[Marxist in Nebraska]

My People's History thread has been fucked up several times, and I wanted to discuss Zinn's Declarations of Independence (which I read only a few weeks after)... so I have started a new thread--open to talk about anything and everything Zinn...

a quote from Declarations:

"Indeed, it is impossible to be neutral. In a world already moving in certain directions, where wealth and power are already distributed in certain ways, neutrality means accepting the way things are now. It is a world of clashing interests--war against peace, nationalism against internationalism, equality against greed, and democracy against elitism--and it seems to me both impossible and undesireable to be neutral in those conflicts."

[Marxist in Nebraska]

From Declarations:

Power politics (especially American politics) are Machiavellian. Machiavelli's worship of the state contradicts the U.S. Declaration of Independence, where the state is recognized as only existing because the people consent to it. Thus, Zinn feels that the Machiavellian nature of power politics is a betrayal of Jefferson's vision.

Italian communist Antonio Gramsci believed that Machiavelli was trying to educate the workers and peasants with The Prince, since as Gramsci argued, real princes already knew how to abuse others to raise their power.

Humans are not violent by nature, but do have the potential. Humans also have the potential to be peaceful. Human nature is dynamic, and shaped by social factors.

Institutional violence is possible when need for obedience outweighs human morality or individual thought.

Selfishness or greed seems to depend on resources available in a given environment--studies are sited as proof (where there is less to go around, violence and greed are more prevalent).

The "pollution" of history is comparable to that of air or water... it is unintentional, but inevitable if it is seen as safe and profitable to do it the old way.

[Sabocat]

I love Zinn. I really want to read that book as well. It sounds great.


MiN, I'm going to hear Howard speak in Cambridge, MA on Saturday. I'll let you know how it was. Can't wait.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Yes I too admire Howard Zinn and respect his work.I would list him among some of todays best leftist authors,along with Michael Moore,Al Franken,and at times Noam Chomsky.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 05:15 PM
MiN, I'm going to hear Howard speak in Cambridge, MA on Saturday. I'll let you know how it was. Can't wait.
He is coming to my hometown of Lincoln, Nebraska in April 2004... I am already counting down the days and weeks... I have been since I found out over the summer...

cg,

I also love Moore and Chomsky, and Franken seems good though I have not read any of his work. What is wrong with Chomsky?

[Marxist in Nebraska]

More notes from Zinn's Declarations of Independence:

Churchill planned to use American-built Anthrax bombs against Germany during World War II, but production was delayed.

World War II may have ended with the defeat of fascism, but it was no crusade against fascsim. After the war, there was still racism, militarism, dictatorship, imperialism, and jingoism.

"Perhaps the worst consequence of World War II is that it kept alive the idea that war could be just." --Zinn, committed pacifist... (I really liked this quote. It seems that everytime war is decried as immoral or foul, up comes a militarist saying, "What about World War II?")

The "Founding Fathers" even recognized that the executive branch is the one most interested in war. That is why Congress was issued the power to declare war, and not the president. (Too bad the president has assumed that power in the 20th Century, with little dissent.)

The court system is a supposedly vital cog of democracy, yet the courts are undemocratic. The judge is a dictator who can block free speech, and unilaterally control a trial.

Is there more than one human nature? The government gives corporate welfare because it "stimulates productivity", but it avoids welfare to the poor because it will hurt their productivity.

"Revolutionaries once in power seem to lose their taste for revolutions." --Zinn

"The person who has freedom of the press owns one." --A.J. Liebling

Massive violence for a noble end cannot be justified because no outcome is certain.

Militarists' addiction to weapons parallels drug addicts--an expensive habit that leads to violence, and is dangerous and self-perpetuating.

Bloated military budgets have been the strain leading to the collapse of the great empires of at least the last 500 years (by crippling their economies).

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 06:35 PM
Yes I too admire Howard Zinn and respect his work.I would list him among some of todays best leftist authors,along with Michael Moore,Al Franken,and at times Noam Chomsky.
I think it is a great insult to put a hack like Michael Moore up there with greats like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn

[praxis1966]

I can't say that I've ever read Zinn, but if MiN's summation of his work is accurate, I can't say that I'm all that impressed either. It seems from my reading here that Zinn does not understand Machiavelli.

If nothing else, Machiavelli could be characterized as the ultimate pragmatist. I would hardly describe American politics as such. This is the essence of "The Prince." I'm not saying I disagree with it, but according to your discussion Zinn has an obvious agenda. An agenda, coincidentally, which does not seem to be grounded in fact. I would hardly say that the platform of the Democratic or Republican party is remotely pragmatic. It seems to me as though they legislate upon the basis of popularity rather than mass benefit, a precept hardly based in Machiavellian ideology.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

praxis,

Is pragmatism the only way to characterize Machiavelli? That is not even what Zinn is dealing with. Zinn is talking about the amoral approach of using any means to achieve an end more than anything. Did Machiavelli talk that way? If so, than the comparison stands.

[FatFreeMilk]

Maybe I'd understand what's going on here if I knew what "pragmatism" is. :huh:

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pragmatism)

Decent definitions for pragmatism here.

[Agent provocateur]

I love Zinn so much I´m just about to explode. His Peoples History of the United States has a new 2003 edition.