4 NK Officials Killed

[Susurrus]

http://www.dailynk.com.nyud.net/english/read.php?cataId=nk01500&num=8714


The source added, “There was a note found lying next to the body of the executed NSA official which said ‘Punished in the name of the people.’”...The likelihood seems to be that the murders were planned by somebody with a political motive rather than a personal grudge...For the time being North Korean authorities are proceeding under the assumption that it was an act of rebellion against the system instigated with outside help

[Shotgun Opera]

For the time being North Korean authorities are proceeding under the assumption that it was an act of rebellion against the system instigated with outside help
'Bout fuckin time.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Now I'll be waiting for a "Korean Spring" headline in the NY Times around March.

Then NATO will butt in and coopt it.

[Per Levy]

Now I'll be waiting for a "Korean Spring" headline in the NY Times around March.

Then NATO will butt in and coopt it.

that aint happen, china wont allow it.

would be interesting to hear/read from the people who done it. a leaflet or statement would be nice to get a better picture.

[Princess Luna]

that aint happen, china wont allow it.

would be interesting to hear/read from the people who done it. a leaflet or statement would be nice to get a better picture.
Even if the people who did this made some kind of leaflet or statement, North Korea would never release it or acknowledge it

[Shotgun Opera]

Now I'll be waiting for a "Korean Spring" headline in the NY Times around March.

Then NATO will butt in and coopt it.
I'd take that over the situation now and I'd wager most North Koreans would as well.

[kurr]

'Bout fuckin time.

Outside help being South Korea, you opportunist moron. What rational leftist would cheerlead a opposition movement spearheaded by Seoul and Washington?

[Agathor]

Seoul want South and North Korea re-united, which would be a tremendous achievement for everyone in the world except the commissar class in North Korea and all the creepy little Stalinist kids in the west who support them.

Capitalism has problems, but it's better than feudalism. And I think North Koreans would prefer a dozen MacDonalds branches to another famine.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Capitalism has problems, but it's better than feudalism. And I think North Koreans would prefer a dozen MacDonalds branches to another famine.

DPRK isn't feudalist. Sorry.

[Shotgun Opera]

Outside help being South Korea, you opportunist moron. What rational leftist would cheerlead a opposition movement spearheaded by Seoul and Washington?
A rational leftist that would rather see a Seoul/Washington headed government than one headed by people like Jong-il, if those are my only two choices.

South Korea may be a Capitalist stronghold but godsdammit it is at least marginally better than life in North Korea. Considering the conditions in North Korea, I think almost any scenario would be better. It'd certainly have to really strive to be worse.

And besides, you're over-estimating South Korea's interest in the North. The cheering on of reunification is not that earnest for one simple reason; South Korea doesn't want to have to PAY for North Korea. If the two were to merge tomorrow, Seoul would have a massive task on their hands, decades of trouble, billions upon billions of won to spend, and ~24 million people to care for who would basically have to be treated like refugees and many of which hate South Korea.

Yes, I'm sure many Koreans do genuinely want reunification, but the South Korean government is not exactly chomping at the bit to get it and I doubt they'd fall over themselves to take the country even if they could.

[#FF0000]

A rational leftist that would rather see a Seoul/Washington headed government than one headed by people like Jong-il, if those are my only two choices.

Wrong. Sorry.

[moneybags]

Hi

[Shotgun Opera]

Wrong. Sorry.
We have to be realistic and look at what can and will actually happen.

A revolution inside North Korea is probably not going to happen on its own, barring something truly momentous; communication is too difficult, the army is too large, people have been indoctrinated for too long, and frankly most North Koreans don't know any different kind of life.

A common feature of the Arab Spring revolutions was an effective communications medium and the influence of outside ideas and moral/direct support. Neither of which can be said North Korea has.

So what does that leave? Do we just sit and hope for lightning to strike in North Korea?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

A rational leftist that would rather see a Seoul/Washington headed government than one headed by people like Jong-il, if those are my only two choices.
Getting sold to a new master doesn't mean you're no longer a slave

[Rusty Shackleford]

We have to be realistic and look at what can and will actually happen.

A revolution inside North Korea is probably not going to happen on its own, barring something truly momentous; communication is too difficult, the army is too large, people have been indoctrinated for too long, and frankly most North Koreans don't know any different kind of life.

A common feature of the Arab Spring revolutions was an effective communications medium and the influence of outside ideas and moral/direct support. Neither of which can be said North Korea has.

So what does that leave? Do we just sit and hope for lightning to strike in North Korea?
the DPRK already had its revolution. since then deformities have obviously developed.

but, in no fucking way is a comprador government led by seoul better than an independent government led by pyongyang. The only reason why the south is more glitzy than the south was because in the 70s the imperialists realized that the DPRK was doing a hell of a lot better than the fucked up situation in occupied south korea.

secondly, since when did the size of a national army become a problem for revolutionaries? and when the fuck did being 'realistic' mean anything when you are going head on into a fight with the bourgeoisie. had lenin been 'realistic' he probably wouldnt have written the april thesis or called for the mobilization of the party to overthrow the kerensky government and establish soviet power.

third, so the people of the DPRK are just indoctrinated and therefore too dumb to run their own lives? people could have said that about egyptians russians or cubans and people still say the same about americans.

and as soon as any opposition movement arises in the DPRK, ROK and US agents would be all over it co opting the shit out of it.

[Shotgun Opera]

Getting sold to a new master doesn't mean you're no longer a slave
That's a real cute bumpersticker but it ignores the reality of the situation.


the DPRK already had its revolution. since then deformities have obviously developed.
I'd call the situation in North Korea a bit more serious than "deformities."


but, in no fucking way is a comprador government led by seoul better than an independent government led by pyongyang. The only reason why the south is more glitzy than the south was because in the 70s the imperialists realized that the DPRK was doing a hell of a lot better than the fucked up situation in occupied south korea.
I would hardly call Pyonyang an independent government in the sense that it represents the will and interests of the people. In fact, I'm questioning how much different the North Korean government is than an occupying oppressive force, say the British in India or pretty much anywhere else they ended up.


secondly, since when did the size of a national army become a problem for revolutionaries? and when the fuck did being 'realistic' mean anything when you are going head on into a fight with the bourgeoisie. had lenin been 'realistic' he probably wouldnt have written the april thesis or called for the mobilization of the party to overthrow the kerensky government and establish soviet power.
North Korea's military has spent the last several decades arming itself to fight conventional and unconventional foes; internal or external. They're hardly in tip-top shape, but I question how a revolution would start when the area would simply be immediately glassed by North Korean aircraft or where most people are afraid to talk because of the massive and omnipresent secret police presence.

Note I didnt say this was impossible, merely highly improbable.

Lenin also had the advantage of outside influences and a population that was resentful of the incumbent government.


third, so the people of the DPRK are just indoctrinated and therefore too dumb to run their own lives?
You said that, not I.

They are indoctrinated against seeing how their situation really is and how much it could be improved by dropping their banners and picking up guns.


and as soon as any opposition movement arises in the DPRK, ROK and US agents would be all over it co opting the shit out of it.
So what do you suggest?

[Rusty Shackleford]

So what do you suggest?
let me respond to just this because what everything boils down to is this.



fight for socialism where you live, if its the us, dont run away.


why?



all the deformities and fuck ups that have happened are not inherently failures of ideology. theres a reason why the DPRK puts its military first. its virtually surrounded by a nuclear armed enemy. instead of attacking their government, criticize and work against your own. sometimes their are gross miscalculations, and there is room for criticism.

things would change very quickly if world capitalism was defeated, or at least the hub of it all, the US was defeated. but calling for the fall of the DPRK is siding with imperialism. im not even telling you to defend the DPRK, but if the DPRK were to be overthrown, it wouldnt be better off. the struggle for a unified and independent korea would die as it all would then be under the guidance and control of the US and its allies.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

That's a real cute bumpersticker but it ignores the reality of the situation.
Thanks, I'm going to get it printed on Monday.

[Shotgun Opera]

let me respond to just this because what everything boils down to is this.



fight for socialism where you live, if its the us, dont run away.


why?



all the deformities and fuck ups that have happened are not inherently failures of ideology.
Ok, I can get behind that, however I would contend that the only real ideology North Korea displays is military totalitarian dictatorship, borrowing bits and pieces from Socialism or Communism so long as those pieces can be used to reinforce the regime's hold on the people and enrich those in power.


theres a reason why the DPRK puts its military first. its virtually surrounded by a nuclear armed enemy. It's got China (a nation it's very friendly with at it's back door, what does it have to be afraid of?


instead of attacking their government, criticize and work against your own. sometimes their are gross miscalculations, and there is room for criticism. Why cant you do both?


things would change very quickly if world capitalism was defeated, or at least the hub of it all, the US was defeated. but calling for the fall of the DPRK is siding with imperialism. im not even telling you to defend the DPRK, but if the DPRK were to be overthrown, it wouldnt be better off. the struggle for a unified and independent korea would die as it all would then be under the guidance and control of the US and its allies.
I think we need to focus more on the here-now and the situation the North Korean people are in before we focus on Korean reunification or shoring up the North Korean government.

We have to remember that even people like us would be jailed and shot in North Korea, a country that, supposedly, is run by people sympathetic to our political viewpoints. It is not an open country where ideas of Communism and Socialism can flourish, it will not evolve into an open state over time.

My primary concern is the well-being of the North Korean people. If the DPRK could see to their well-being while avoiding the whole "death camp secret police" thing, I would get behind them 100%. However, that not being the case, I think it's our duty and responsibility as people who follow ideologies that claim to care about the people to call "bullshit" when we see it and do what we can to right something gone off the rails. If Seoul is able and willing to step in and help, fuck, but fine let's get people fed and in a position where they can revolt.

They're making us look bad, the rest of the world sees North Korea call itself a Socialist country and they look at us like we're advancing North Korea as some sort of triumph of Socialism. If we want to show the world that we are truly concerned about the people the rich step on every day, we need to do what we can to stand against anyone who would step on those same people. Even if those people pretend to be our brothers, perhaps especially if they pretend to be our brothers. If North Korea ever does free itself, dont you think there's going to be a massive backlash against Socialism, reminiscent of "de-Stalinization"? I'd anticipate there being a climate in a newly freed North Korea towards Socialism akin to the climate regarding Nazism in Germany today; extremely hostile if not outright banned. We need to do what we can to make sure we dont lose that entire area to Capitalism for good, which is exactly what will happen if we just stand back and wait for things to get better. We need to be there showing North Koreans that what they're living under isnt Socialism and that true Socialism can help them.

We're so quick to balk at places like the US and Europe when they're pulling some underhanded crap, but we're just going to wait out North Korea and see what happens a few decades down the road? I cant accept that.

[manic expression]

Ok, I can get behind that, however I would contend that the only real ideology North Korea displays is military totalitarian dictatorship,
Yeah, that's just something capitalist politicians say...it's not actually an ideology. Surely you're not falling for that old politician's trick, right?


Why cant you do both?Because you can hardly oppose your own government effectively if you're applauding their foreign policy in trying to "finish the job" of conquering Korea.


I think we need to focus more on the here-now and the situation the North Korean people are in before we focus on Korean reunification or shoring up the North Korean government.The difficult situation the people of the DPRK are in is because of imperialism. Imperialism set up a siege against the country, imperialism has been threatening the country militarily...and now you want to gleefully cheer that same force?


We have to remember that even people like us would be jailed and shot in North Korea,No, you most likely wouldn't be. They even let Jenkins go home even though everyone knew he was going to defect back to the US.


My primary concern is the well-being of the North Korean people. If the DPRK could see to their well-being while avoiding the whole "death camp secret police" thing, I would get behind them 100%.I'm quite keen to hear precisely what "whole 'death camp secret police' thing" you're referring to.

[#FF0000]

We have to be realistic and look at what can and will actually happen.

Yeah, you're right, and when it comes to imperialist ventures in any country, the answer is: nothing good.

But this is totally irrelevant anyway because Washington/South Korea literally -can't- do anything about North Korea. The minute there's the hint of an invasion, Seoul gets wiped off the map. Then the rest of the world gets to try and integrate North Korea into the world economy and get by without that one huge center of trade. Even in that victory scenario everyone still loses.

[Shotgun Opera]

Yeah, that's just something capitalist politicians say...it's not actually an ideology. Surely you're not falling for that old politician's trick, right?
It is indeed a form of government, its less common these days but North Korea is a shining example of it.


Because you can hardly oppose your own government effectively if you're applauding their foreign policy in trying to "finish the job" of conquering Korea.
Who said anything about applauding their foreign policy? This isn't that "you're with us or against us" crap, is it? My own feeling is that the government of North Korea is not working for the people, they are working to subjugate and control the North Korean people as much as possible and anyone who tries to pull away from that is treated as an enemy and shot. They do what the people in power here wish they could do.

If that's the foreign policy position of other countries or people, that's really not my problem.


The difficult situation the people of the DPRK are in is because of imperialism. Imperialism set up a siege against the country, imperialism has been threatening the country militarily...and now you want to gleefully cheer that same force?
Imperialism is causing the North Korean government to make leaving the country a capital offense? Imperialism is suppressing free speech and creating personality cult around the leadership? Imperialism is forcing North Korea to kidnap citizens of other countries?


No, you most likely wouldn't be. They even let Jenkins go home even though everyone knew he was going to defect back to the US.
Why would the North Korean government give a crap about Jenkins? They as much told him "Go back, we don't care."


I'm quite keen to hear precisely what "whole 'death camp secret police' thing" you're referring to.
The six camps that we know of that we can see via satellite and have been told of by people who've made it out of North Korea.

[The Douche]

Shotgun opera, do you also support US intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Did you support the NATO bombing of civilians in Libya?

Just how far does your view of western imperialism as progressive go? Will you please further elaborate to me why your mordernized adaptation of the white man's burden should not end with you restricted to the opposing ideologies section?

[ColonelCossack]

Anyone who thinks NK is feudalist is not a materialist at all.

[Shotgun Opera]

Shotgun opera, do you also support US intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Did you support the NATO bombing of civilians in Libya?
I dont really see what this has to do with the topic at hand.


Just how far does your view of western imperialism as progressive go? Will you please further elaborate to me why your mordernized adaptation of the white man's burden should not end with you restricted to the opposing ideologies section?
I think you're seeing what's not there to be seen. I dont care where the help comes from, The Democratic Republic of the Congo could be offering and I'd take it. This has nothing to do with the "white man's burden" and everything to do with us having political beliefs that claim to be for the benefit of oppressed people. Well here's an entire country of them and we should be there, not making excuses as to why they're not REALLY that oppressed or retreating behind non-interventionist wishy-washying.

It boils down to several basic points;

1. The situation in North Korea is not Socialism nor is it Communism and it's ongoing to the severe detriment of the North Korean people. The government is not there to help the people.

2. There is a very minimal chance that a meaningful revolution will happen in North Korea on its own given the circumstances.

3. It benefits us as Socialists and Communists to get involved in the liberation of North Korea to prevent us losing that area of the globe entirely and to show the world we dont support the kind of death-camp control that exists in North Korea.

4. The North Korean people need help NOW. Regardless of where it comes from, they need help NOW. If that help comes from the US, fuck but we can live with it because it alleviates the immediate problem of a directly oppressive government. Revolution is always possible once they've got enough food and outside contact to do so.

[The Douche]

You skirted the issue here. You suggested that you would not be opposed to US intervention in North Korea. Now, I, as well as every single member on here, would support a genuine struggle of the north Korean working class in overthrowing capitalism. But supporting imperialist intervention there is not a position which you can hold alongside a communist position.

And your logic, that the "help" given to North Korean workers by the US would be positive, is the same logic that justifies imperialist intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else on the globe.

[Shotgun Opera]

You skirted the issue here. You suggested that you would not be opposed to US intervention in North Korea. Now, I, as well as every single member on here, would support a genuine struggle of the north Korean working class in overthrowing capitalism. But supporting imperialist intervention there is not a position which you can hold alongside a communist position.
And I think we should support any intervention that alleviates the situation there in the immediacy. Once the North Koreans have a more open society with better access to information and food as well as having their secret police and death camps dismantled, THEN we move in and kick the revolution off.

I think you're letting ideology get in the way of doing what our beliefs say we should be doing. You want to help the North Koreans but only in a way that's ideologically approved. And I think that's a grave mistake because if we arent there and North Korea frees itself or if outside intervention frees it without us being part of the equation beforehand, then there will be an anti-Communist/Socialist backlash that will keep us out of the country for a very long time and we'll have lost an important possible step forward for Communism/Socialism.


And your logic, that the "help" given to North Korean workers by the US would be positive, is the same logic that justifies imperialist intervention in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else on the globe.
In the long run, I dont think it would be positive. I think it would turn the North into a new kind of hell-hole.

Which is why I dont advocate US, or any other country, control the North for very long. Let them do the work of ousting the government so we can step in and start the revolution which makes North Korea truly free.

[Rafiq]

Seoul want South and North Korea re-united, which would be a tremendous achievement for everyone in the world except the commissar class in North Korea and all the creepy little Stalinist kids in the west who support them.

Capitalism has problems, but it's better than feudalism. And I think North Koreans would prefer a dozen MacDonalds branches to another famine.

Ah, more "Left" inconsistancy.

- opposes Gadaffi and Assad because they do not repesent proletariat, even if they generate better living standards than the opposition would.

- supports South Korean State against North Korea "Because higher living standards will be generated".

[The Man]

Ok, I can get behind that, however I would contend that the only real ideology North Korea displays is military totalitarian dictatorship, borrowing bits and pieces from Socialism or Communism so long as those pieces can be used to reinforce the regime's hold on the people and enrich those in power.

It's got China (a nation it's very friendly with at it's back door, what does it have to be afraid of?

Why cant you do both?


I think we need to focus more on the here-now and the situation the North Korean people are in before we focus on Korean reunification or shoring up the North Korean government.

We have to remember that even people like us would be jailed and shot in North Korea, a country that, supposedly, is run by people sympathetic to our political viewpoints. It is not an open country where ideas of Communism and Socialism can flourish, it will not evolve into an open state over time.

My primary concern is the well-being of the North Korean people. If the DPRK could see to their well-being while avoiding the whole "death camp secret police" thing, I would get behind them 100%. However, that not being the case, I think it's our duty and responsibility as people who follow ideologies that claim to care about the people to call "bullshit" when we see it and do what we can to right something gone off the rails. If Seoul is able and willing to step in and help, fuck, but fine let's get people fed and in a position where they can revolt.

They're making us look bad, the rest of the world sees North Korea call itself a Socialist country and they look at us like we're advancing North Korea as some sort of triumph of Socialism. If we want to show the world that we are truly concerned about the people the rich step on every day, we need to do what we can to stand against anyone who would step on those same people. Even if those people pretend to be our brothers, perhaps especially if they pretend to be our brothers. If North Korea ever does free itself, dont you think there's going to be a massive backlash against Socialism, reminiscent of "de-Stalinization"? I'd anticipate there being a climate in a newly freed North Korea towards Socialism akin to the climate regarding Nazism in Germany today; extremely hostile if not outright banned. We need to do what we can to make sure we dont lose that entire area to Capitalism for good, which is exactly what will happen if we just stand back and wait for things to get better. We need to be there showing North Koreans that what they're living under isnt Socialism and that true Socialism can help them.

We're so quick to balk at places like the US and Europe when they're pulling some underhanded crap, but we're just going to wait out North Korea and see what happens a few decades down the road? I cant accept that.

I thought you were just an odd leftist, and then I saw you say the word "Totalitarian" and now no one takes you seriously.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

An interesting point to keep in mind is that if Korea is ever reunited under a Seol/Washington government than the situation goes from America-VS-NK on a border to America-VS-China on a thin strip of land.I'm not saying that the Imperialists can't already bomb the crap out of any country they please but under such a scenario bellicosity against China would be made easier.

(I apologize of this point has already been brought up... I haven't looked at this thread in a while).

[Nox]

How about we just have a global anarchist revolution? Problem solved

[Tim Cornelis]

Outside help being South Korea, you opportunist moron. What rational leftist would cheerlead a opposition movement spearheaded by Seoul and Washington?

lol. You actually believe this was orchestrated by the South Koreans? That's just laughable.

South Korea does not want war and will do anything to prevent it. The North Koreans are able to fire such a high number of shells within 5 minutes that it can burn half of Seoul, it would be damn stupid if they just go and kill North Koreans!

The notion that it is "outside forces" is always used by those in power to discredit movements because it implies high treason and disloyality by the insurgents, activists or whomever.


Shotgun opera, do you also support US intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq?

Did you support the NATO bombing of civilians in Libya?

Just how far does your view of western imperialism as progressive go? Will you please further elaborate to me why your mordernized adaptation of the white man's burden should not end with you restricted to the opposing ideologies section?

Let's turn it around though; would you have supported the US invasion of Europe in WW2 against National Socialism, or would you dismiss it as "US imperialism"?

See, the world isn't black and white, and it does not always confine itself in narrow perspectives of "imperialism" and such.


I thought you were just an odd leftist, and then I saw you say the word "Totalitarian" and now no one takes you seriously.

What part about "the only real ideology North Korea displays is military totalitarian dictatorship" is inaccurate?

Are you one of those apologetic nutcases who believes everything negative about North Korea is a lie?

North Korea is the most totalitarian regime in the world at this moment. Maybe even in the history of humanity.

[revhiphop]

I don't know what to think of this. On one hand I defend North Korea against imperialism, on the other hand, they have removed all links to communism from their constitution and have the whole death camp and cult thing (that is over dramatized, however). Having a "military first" policy makes some sense in their situation, even with China next door. I don't think NATO will get involved with overthrowing NK simply because China will go absofuckinglutelyapseshit if they do. Anyway, I really would love to know what those officials did to be "punished in the name of the people."

[The Douche]

Let's turn it around though; would you have supported the US invasion of Europe in WW2 against National Socialism, or would you dismiss it as "US imperialism"?

See, the world isn't black and white, and it does not always confine itself in narrow perspectives of "imperialism" and such.


As a matter of fact, I do not support the imperialist powers in WW2. Neither do any of the leftcoms on the board.

[Omsk]

I do not support the imperialist powers in WW2.


I hope you support the struggle of the Soviet,and other peoples [Slavs] against the mechanism that's aim was to exterminate them.

[The Douche]

I hope you support the struggle of the Soviet,and other peoples [Slavs] against the mechanism that's aim was to exterminate them.

I support the struggle of people in those countries to kick the nazis out, and I support the resistance to Nazism, obviously. But I do not accept the idea that the allies were waging some sort of morally just battle against fascism. Nor do I agree with the popular front.

[Sendo]

Ah, more "Left" inconsistency.

- supports South Korean State against North Korea "Because higher living standards will be generated".

I am a passionate anti-imperialist, but don't make it seem like the state of South Korea is some partner in US imperialism like the UK. It's a joke. I grow tired of posters here treating South Korea as if it's still 1948.

Things change. South Korea has a very different character now, for better and for worse. The left has become severely tempered at best, eradicated at worst (see pre-Korean War massacres of pre-ROK and ROK forces on civilians and remaining US occupation/Korean War laws criminalizing communism--though not "socialism"). The current president is reviled and on his way out and most people in this country, especially outside of Busan and Gangnam are at least social democrats or more left than that.

Korea is not dominated by the lap dogs of imperialism any more. There are powerful figures who are traitors to their people, but they aren't the only players. With the exception of the recent discussions that might end extra-territoriality of GIs in South Korea, South Korea is forced to sign whatever treaty the US hands it (FTA, FTA, FTA).

North Korea has removed all traces of Marxism from its constitution and has been woefully mismanaged and is a crude caricature of itself now and destitute.

I have no doubt that if all of Korea were living like it is in the South the peninsula would be far better off and prosperous (part of that is simply because DPRK lost USSR support). Without the big bad commies in the North, the government would have no bogeyman and unions and activists could get really "active."

That wouldn't happen though. There will be no South Korean imperialism on the North. If anything happens, the US will invoke "UN" this and that and security agreement X and just take over. It's a moot point, but please, don't act like the ROK is some menace. Without the US presence, even the most die-hard Col Warriors wouldn't dare to do anything beyond the status quo.

South Koreans are the victims of imperialism, too. They're not the UK or NATO in the post-1989 world. They are not junior partners in imperialism.

[Sendo]

lol. You actually believe this was orchestrated by the South Koreans? That's just laughable.

South Korea does not want war and will do anything to prevent it. The North Koreans are able to fire such a high number of shells within 5 minutes that it can burn half of Seoul, it would be damn stupid if they just go and kill North Koreans!


Good point there. (I take issue with weasel words like "totalitarianism" later in your post, though.)

Seoul has no desire to kick off a war. They may be hawkish, but they definitely don't call the shots. That said, there are a few die-hards who would wave their flags and send others' sons to their deaths, but only if the USA kicked it off and supplied the guns.

It's a point of mutual assured destruction with current technology, something the USA doesn't give a damn about given the Pacific Ocean in the way.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Seoul want South and North Korea re-united, which would be a tremendous achievement for everyone in the world except the commissar class in North Korea and all the creepy little Stalinist kids in the west who support them.
I'm sorry, but Stalinist don't support NK. An example is Enver Hoxha.

North Korea follows Kim Il-Sung's ideology.

[Ismail]

Let's turn it around though; would you have supported the US invasion of Europe in WW2 against National Socialism, or would you dismiss it as "US imperialism"?

See, the world isn't black and white, and it does not always confine itself in narrow perspectives of "imperialism" and such.Nazi Germany aimed to become a capitalist superpower that would dominate Europe, destroy the USSR, and brutally suppress any and all left-wing movements not only within its own country, but through the conquest and colonization of various states. Not to mention that, you know, Nazi Germany was actually invading other countries.

The DPRK is a poor and isolated state that has territorial claims on South Korea (and vice-versa.) Not comparable. And yes, the West obviously had imperialist motives for its own while waging the war. That doesn't mean that the war wasn't turned into a struggle against fascism, despite the fact that the West obviously preferred an outcome in which it'd benefit far more than the communists who gained in popularity and strength in pretty much all Europe. An invasion of the DPRK would do nothing whatsoever on that front, it'd just demonstrate the remaining strength of US imperialism and would solely be used for demagogic purposes to show the USA's "liberating" role in the world, kinda like... every invasion it ever did.

You and "Shotgun Opera" are quite clearly apologizing for imperialism in this instance. Imperialists never operate on a "moral" basis, otherwise Obama would announce that he's invading 90% of the United States' allies. Not to mention that "feudalism" is definitely being used in a non-Marxist sense, considering that no one is considering an invasion of Swaziland, which is basically a tribal state with a capitalist economy. Instead "feudalism" is used to mean "THE DPRK IS SO EVIL THEY ARE FEUDO-TOTALITARIAN HITLERIANS WHO ARE ABERRATIONS TO HUMANITY WHICH MUST BE STOPPED" or whatever. Whereas in reality the DPRK is state-capitalist and pursues a non-revolutionary foreign policy, yet is still oppressed by imperialism.

You'd think the talk about how Saddam Hussein was the new Hitler and had to be stopped or else he'd hold the world hostage via his weapons of mass destruction and oil he'd gain from his conquest of all Arabia would demonstrate that imperialism is not "moral" but clearly aims at providing a "moral" cover for its actions. You'd think the same would be even more obvious in the case of Libya, where the first weeks were just a barrage of "GADDAFI IS EVIL GADDAFI IS EVIL HE'S KILLING EVERYONE WE GOTTA INTERVENE" etc. I think "Kosovo is Albanian" as much as the next (non-Milošević apologist) leftist, but that sure doesn't mean I support the NATO bombing of Serbia or the formation of an "independent" Kosovo as an outpost of US imperialism.

What is better: the DPRK is "liberated" by US imperialism, or the proletariat of the DPRK attains genuine liberation through its own efforts, preferably in coordination of some sort with the proletariat of South Korea?


Which is why I dont advocate US, or any other country, control the North for very long. Let them do the work of ousting the government so we can step in and start the revolution which makes North Korea truly free.This is quite literally a position taken by various opportunist, parliamentary "Communist" parties in Europe in 2003. Iraq's "Communist" party basically had the view that: "Now that the US has overthrown Saddam, although it will occupy our country for years to come and impoverish it further, at least we can organize now! Hooray to collaboration with US-imposed institutions!"

[Prometeo liberado]

It's got China (a nation it's very friendly with at it's back door, what does it have to be afraid of?

China, in the event of nuclear war would cut its losses or make peace with NATO. China remembers the Korean war and how many troops they lost. They dont need that shit coming home.

If Seoul is able and willing to step in and help, fuck, but fine let's get people fed and in a position where they can revolt.

Invite Seoul to "help"? How about their benefactors Japan, Australia and the US? I mean if you wanna throw a capitalist party do it right. We can have it sponsored by Fuji,Chase Manhattan, Bank of America and Haliburton. The poor North Korean kids can feed on Big Macs and KFC. And they will be happy goddamit!