Communist/USSR symbolism

[Lanky Wanker]

I hope this is the right place to post this, but here I go anyway. As we know, most people obviously associate the hammer and sickle with the USSR, though we ourselves don't shout "SOVIET FAN BOY!" at anyone wearing a H&S t-shirt because it's accepted as general communist symbolism. I was just wondering though, what communist symbolism is exclusively symbolic of the Soviet Union in particular? Does red and yellow necessarily have to be associated with Russia back in the day or am I just letting the capitalist propaganda get to my head?

[Ostrinski]

The hammer and sickle was conceived during the Russian Revolution, but the internationalist character of the revolution and the fact that what the h&s represents transcends the material conditions of 1917 Russia are why it shouldn't be considered a USSR national symbol. The red flag goes back to the French Revolution, but I do believe the Bolsheviks were the first to add yellow to the flag. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I guess the state emblem would be USSR-specific, as well as some of their other crests and emblems like the cheka emblem. But really, while we may identify certain symbols with the Soviet Union as a nation, none of the USSR symbolism really has anything to do with its nationhood (that is if we're talking the de jure technical meanings of the symbols, not the de facto defnitions ordained by historical context).

[Lanky Wanker]

But really, while we may identify certain symbols with the Soviet Union as a nation, none of the USSR symbolism really has anything to do with its nationhood (that is if we're talking the de jure technical meanings of the symbols, not the de facto defnitions ordained by historical context).

Yeah, I guess so. It's just that I wanna get a hammer & sickle shirt but I have this voice in my head telling me to avoid anything being sold with USSR in its title; made me wonder if it actually mattered much or not. I just want something that's tendency neutral and doesn't make me look like I'm standing with a particular communist group.

[Ostrinski]

Yeah, I guess so. It's just that I wanna get a hammer & sickle shirt but I have this voice in my head telling me to avoid anything being sold with USSR in its title; made me wonder if it actually mattered much or not. I just want something that's tendency neutral and doesn't make me look like I'm standing with a particular communist group.Practically every communist movement, organization, and tendency, from anarchist to ML have adopted this symbol. I'd say it's tendency-neutral. It's meaning doesn't connotate any specific current within communism. And people who don't understand that have irrelevant opinions anyway so I wouldn't worry about it.

[Lanky Wanker]

Practically every communist movement, organization, and tendency, from anarchist to ML have adopted this symbol. I'd say it's tendency-neutral. It's meaning doesn't connotate any specific current within communism. And people who don't understand that have irrelevant opinions anyway so I wouldn't worry about it.

It's not the hammer & sickle that worries me, it's just how it's presented. Anyway, I can't find any decent ones online that don't have 3 year shipping to the UK though so I think I'll leave it for now lol.

[Blake's Baby]

I'd disagree. I'd definitely associate the hammer and sickle with the USSR, and by default I'd assume anyone wearing it was either a) a Stalinist or b) a poseur. Not that I'm equating the two, but if someone knows what it is, and still wears it, they're a Stalinist, and if they don't know what it is, but wears it, they're a poseur. That would be my assumption anyway.

I suppose you could do it ironically (unless you are a Stalinist, then you don't have to). But I think it's easier not to.

[Veovis]

Despite all the deficiencies and failures of the Soviet Union, you have to admit that they certainly had style.

[#FF0000]

Despite all the differences and failures of the Soviet Union, you have to admit that they certainly had style.

Nah. Early USSR, maybe, when you had all that awesome avant-garde thing going for them but then you have that horrible Socialist Realism shit and that is awful.

[Rafiq]

The hammer and sickle is irrelivent toward a modern movement and should be put to rest. Also, waving LIGHT-RED flags around in the 1990's-Present looks so fucking stupid and lame. In today's advanced capitalism, a new flag is required: something more striking (NOT black-red flags), a darker red... Or even pitch black, which would make a big statement. But this light red shit is just ugly, postmodern looking, and fucking stupid.

[Lanky Wanker]

Sounds like an idea for one of those cool kid competitions we could have where we all try and make a new symbol/flag thing and the most creative arsehole gets theirs stamped as the new official leftist replacement for the hammer & sickle. :cool: Yay or nay?

[Q]

Sounds like an idea for one of those cool kid competitions we could have where we all try and make a new symbol/flag thing and the most creative arsehole gets theirs stamped as the new official leftist replacement for the hammer & sickle. :cool: Yay or nay?

Someone once said that computer standards are a great thing: since everyone can choose theirs.

Without the authority to "stamp" it being with anyone currently, you'll end up with a new symbol/logo for everyone to choose theirs, which in a way reflects the fact how divided we are and need our own logo for each "brand" of leftism.

[Lanky Wanker]

Someone once said that computer standards are a great thing: since everyone can choose theirs.

Without the authority to "stamp" it being with anyone currently, you'll end up with a new symbol/logo for everyone to choose theirs, which in a way reflects the fact how divided we are and need our own logo for each "brand" of leftism.

Well, we sort of have the same thing already with our obsession for labelling tendencies. I suppose flags and pretty pictures speak louder than words though when you're dealing with our current society.

[ColonelCossack]

I'd disagree. I'd definitely associate the hammer and sickle with the USSR, and by default I'd assume anyone wearing it was either a) a Stalinist or b) a poseur. Not that I'm equating the two, but if someone knows what it is, and still wears it, they're a Stalinist, and if they don't know what it is, but wears it, they're a poseur. That would be my assumption anyway.

I suppose you could do it ironically (unless you are a Stalinist, then you don't have to). But I think it's easier not to.

Not true; before I joined revleft, when I was a Trot, I wore a hammer and sickle badge sometimes.

[FerLuc]

☭ I idolize the hammer and sickle. Not because it's cool, or that the Soviet Union used it. It symbolizes the pain of the Proletarian, who have risen up against their oppressive capitalist government. ☭
By the way, I dislike Stalin. His ways were much too authoritarian, and he did not bring forth the equality that Communism needs.

[Blake's Baby]

Not true; before I joined revleft, when I was a Trot, I wore a hammer and sickle badge sometimes.

Not true that you were either wearing it because you didn't know what it stood for, because you supported the USSR, or were wearing it ironically? Or not true that my assumption would be one of those things?

OK; one could if one were a Trotskyist wear a hammer and sickle and then have endless debates about 'of course I don't support the excesses of Stalinism but I do support the attempt of the workers to overthrow capitalism and the state but I bitterly regret how it all turned out'.

In other words:
Not knowing what it means - other people think it means you're a Stalinist, ie to them, that's what it means but you don't know;
Being a Stalinist - where Left Comms and Trotskyists disagree is over the nature of the USSR so, in our eyes, if you support the Soviet State, that makes you a supporter of Stalinism, if not actually a Stalinist (through frankly we can't see the difference between military defence of 'a deformed workers state' and military defence of 'actually existing socialism', given that the SU was neither by 1940, it was an imperialist capitalist power);
Wearing it ironically - I think this might qualify as 'Dramatic Irony' ie knowing something the other participants dont; you know that you're a Trotskyists when others think you're a Stalinist

In which case I'd say that rather than none of the above you could as easily claim all of the above.

[The Idler]

“Drawn crudely in the dust of three window-panes were a swastika, a hammer and sickle, and the Stars and Stripes. I had drawn the three symbols weeks before, at the conclusion of an argument about patriotism with Kraft. I had given a hearty cheer for each symbol, demonstrating to Kraft the meaning of patriotism to, respectively, a Nazi, a Communist, and an American. "Hooray, hooray, hooray," I'd said.” ― Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night

[Ostrinski]

“Drawn crudely in the dust of three window-panes were a swastika, a hammer and sickle, and the Stars and Stripes. I had drawn the three symbols weeks before, at the conclusion of an argument about patriotism with Kraft. I had given a hearty cheer for each symbol, demonstrating to Kraft the meaning of patriotism to, respectively, a Nazi, a Communist, and an American. "Hooray, hooray, hooray," I'd said.” ― Kurt Vonnegut, Mother NightAnd what does this have to do with anything?

[The Idler]

And what does this have to do with anything?
"I gotta tell you folks, I don't get all choked up about yellow ribbons and american flags... I consider them symbols of the simple minded." -George Carlin

[runequester]

The question is what the meaning of the symbol will be to most, and what your intention in using it is

The hammer&sickle will be tied to the USSR in most peoples minds. Im not particularly afraid of that, but this is what people will associate you with.

I'm not particularly convinced that the "communist but totally completely not like the USSR" line actually carries any weight with anyone.


As for intention, well, that's for you to answer. Do you hope to spur discussion? Do you hope to make a statement? Do you hope to get reaction?
Adopting a well-known symbol will create all three, sometimes in positive ways and sometimes not. You'll need to be ready for that.

I have a soviet officer's jacket that I wear at most times, including to work. It spurred several conversations about what it stood for, why I wore it etc. They were good conversations, and it's a nice coat, however, they could just as well not have been.
I have an established reputation at my place of work, and live in an area that is pretty open minded. Try that in some other places, and be prepared for your car to get vandalised.

[ColonelCossack]

Not true that you were either wearing it because you didn't know what it stood for, because you supported the USSR, or were wearing it ironically? Or not true that my assumption would be one of those things?

OK; one could if one were a Trotskyist wear a hammer and sickle and then have endless debates about 'of course I don't support the excesses of Stalinism but I do support the attempt of the workers to overthrow capitalism and the state but I bitterly regret how it all turned out'.

In other words:
Not knowing what it means - other people think it means you're a Stalinist, ie to them, that's what it means but you don't know;
Being a Stalinist - where Left Comms and Trotskyists disagree is over the nature of the USSR so, in our eyes, if you support the Soviet State, that makes you a supporter of Stalinism, if not actually a Stalinist (through frankly we can't see the difference between military defence of 'a deformed workers state' and military defence of 'actually existing socialism', given that the SU was neither by 1940, it was an imperialist capitalist power);
Wearing it ironically - I think this might qualify as 'Dramatic Irony' ie knowing something the other participants dont; you know that you're a Trotskyists when others think you're a Stalinist

In which case I'd say that rather than none of the above you could as easily claim all of the above.

Mate. I was 12. Of course I didn't know what any of that meant...

But didn't they use the hammer ans sickle before Stalin came to power?

[runequester]

Everytime people do something "ironically", a kitten cries.

[Blake's Baby]

Mate. I was 12. Of course I didn't know what any of that meant...

But didn't they use the hammer ans sickle before Stalin came to power?

Yes.

Is that the point? I doubt at 12 you were going, 'look, I'm only wearing this hammer and sickle to indicate my agreement with the SU up until the 10th conference and the banning of fractions/Lenin's death/Trotsky's expulsion from the party/whatever other date seems relevant'.

To most people the hammer and sickle equals 'evil soviets'. Or 'Awesome People's Glorious Democratic People's Awesome Yadda-yadda of Awesome'. Either way. But it's just a symbol. It doesn't really express anything worth saving.

'Communism' is an idea, there is a meaning to it, and I think that meaning is the most positive thing there can be for humanity, so the idea of 'communism' is I think worth saving, from people who think 'communism' means 'enslaving my granny and kidnapping my children and bayonetting my cow'. If discussing the symbolism of the Soviet Union leads to a better understanding of communism, fine, but also fine if something else leads to that discussion instead; in and of itself, the symbolism is... not the finest thing the Bolsheviks or the international socialist movement in general ever did.

From the scrapheap of the 20th century, I'd rather save one copy of 'The Junius Pamphlet' or 'State and Revolution' or the '21 Conditions', than all of the 'Soviet' symbolism.

[Prometeo liberado]

If I saw the Soviet Union walking down the street I would have to say, and I quote "...girl you shake it right. I'll say it now".

[Ostrinski]

Are hammers and sickles even used anymore in production and agriculture?

[gorillafuck]

'Communism' is an idea, there is a meaning to it, and I think that meaning is the most positive thing there can be for humanity, so the idea of 'communism' is I think worth saving, from people who think 'communism' means 'enslaving my granny and kidnapping my children and bayonetting my cow'.a revolution without bayoneting cows is a revolution not worth having

[Comrade Samuel]

The hammer and sickle is irrelivent toward a modern movement and should be put to rest. Also, waving LIGHT-RED flags around in the 1990's-Present looks so fucking stupid and lame. In today's advanced capitalism, a new flag is required: something more striking (NOT black-red flags), a darker red... Or even pitch black, which would make a big statement. But this light red shit is just ugly, postmodern looking, and fucking stupid.

I disagree entirely, first of all saying "the hammer and sickle is irrelevant to the modern movement" couldent be further from actuality. I acknowlede that Anarchists, left communists ect. make up more of it than Marx-leninists but the hammer and sickle isent the symbol of a tendency it is the symbol of united proletariates which if I'm not mistaken is something we all hope for. As for "the light red flags of 1990's to present look stupid and lame" well I guess opinions are opinions and keep in mind the red flag was a communist symbol well before the USSR. as for your suggestions on a new flag I doubt 3-4 people on one website liking the idea has much impact on the rest of the leftist community.

But why bother arguing about nonsense like this? Changing symbolism wouldn't change the worlds opinion on the left and for a lot of us our current symbolism has a lot of setimental value and so I say this discussion is pointless because changing only annoys current leftists and will do nothing to gain new ones.

[Comrade Auldnik]

I'm down with the hammer and sickle. I actually like to use faces to indicate my ideological line: Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin-Hoxha. For someone like me, that works just fine, although not a lot of people I've met recognize Hoxha.

[Ismail]

I'm down with the hammer and sickle. I actually like to use faces to indicate my ideological line: Marx-Engels-Lenin-Stalin-Hoxha. For someone like me, that works just fine, although not a lot of people I've met recognize Hoxha.Pro-Hoxha parties do not use Hoxha in their "faces" as a normal thing. They just use Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin, which was also what the Party of Labour of Albania used (since Hoxha's views weren't elevated to some higher stage of Marxism-Leninism like "Mao Zedong Thought" was.)

[Bostana]

I always thought that the Hammer stood for Industry and the Sickle stood for Farming.

Red symbolizes beauty in Blood, I think
And Yellow, well you got me on Yellow I have no Clue.

[Ismail]

Marx's favorite color was red. :D

[Bostana]

Marx's favorite color was red. :D

Reason Number Two Red is the Color of Communism!!!
:lol: