What would Marx think of television?

[Dreamer...]

Television is everywhere and, save for my first year at University, there has always been a television where I have lived.

I remember four channels and when channel five first broadcast, though I was quite young.

Cable, Sky or Satelite telly was a luxury that we didn't have until 2001. I remember because it was then that Birmingham City were in the final of the Worthington Cup and my father had cable and Sky Sports installed to watch it.

But TV has taken over. Most peoples' furniture in their living room points towards it and now people have one in multiple rooms in their home. Bedrooms, living rooms, even kitchens and bathrooms!! It's become a thing to do when there's nothing to do - a complete distraction.

Not only that but the amount of advertisements on every channel bar the BBC has been really pissing me off lately. Twenty minutes in the hour goes toward advertising on television and even then they're not done. Almost any guest star on a show is there because it ties in with the release of their new product. Sure, they talk about themselves for a bit but then it is straight on to plugging their book/film/play/aftershave/underpants/whatever...and that's on the BBC as well!! No escape!

But I can't deny that TV has had its good moments. Some of the finest comedy ever produced was only able to break through because of TV. Not to mention all of the brilliant documentaries, basically all of David Attenborough's work, that have been shown on TV.

The rise of reality TV is a new beast and one I don't know much about. I've seen some shows and don't like them. But it's all sensationalism or completely boring. The programming is becoming more and more vapid each day. You still get the odd gem like 'Planet Earth' or 'The Frozen Planet' but for every hour of that you get 23 hours of "I'm a celebrity...let me plug my shit'.

People like Charlie Brooker appear on TV to denounce it but I'm not sure that is doing anything. It's comedy - and one that those under the spell of junk TV just turn off.

In terms of, I suppose, popular culture and distraction. What would Marx or what do Marxists today think of the television in general and the apathy that I think it most certainly causes? Was this mass-distraction device really conceived of when Marx was writing? I think even the radio pales in comparison to the might of the television and now it's there 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. The TV can keep you company and alleviate your stress and boredom more efficiently and reliably than a person ever could. It is literally always there when you need it and the rise of TV on Demand is making this even more true!!

So...what do you think? What would Marx and other leading minds think? Can you try and justify it if you cite scholars or writers because I'm not massively familiar with theory. I know the fundamentals but it would be useful to me to know where these views are coming from. I'm here to learn as well, after all!

-Dreamer

[Prinskaj]

Well Karl Marx died in 1883, and television first started being introduced into private households were in the late 1920's.. So I don't quite think that Marx had the time to formulate an opinion on the matter.. Unless he had a time machine!

[Dreamer...]

That's why the question is what would he think, not what did he think.

It's also why I asked for opinions of other Marxists.

A lot of what Marx, Engels et al said can be applied to modern situations. There are numerous examples of the relevance of their words today to situations and ideas they couldn't possibly have anticipated.

Thanks for your enlightening reply.

[el_chavista]

what do Marxists today think of the television in generalThe cultural hegemony of the bourgeoisie is reinforced by the development of the info tech and it has granted the ruling class a real worldwide dictatorship of the mass media.
The 2002 coup d'etat in Venezuela, for instance, was more of a virtual TV show than facts: the putschists had no real army as they pretended to in their appearance on TV.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I think out of the hands of the bourgeoisie it can be used in a much more productive manner than it currently is (i,e education, a constant flow on information regarding housing,fiance,food, education, emotional/mental and social needs, etc).I believe the power of mass media can be harnessed do to much more than it is currently doing.As soon as we adopt more widespread positive uses society can use it to assist them during everyday life.

[piet11111]

I think marx would be critically supportive of TV if only for the news and educational value of certain TV shows.

Like it or not but TV is important and i think is the greatest contributing factor to the anti-war movement showing the reality through the camera lens instead of through war propaganda in the form of posters and radio.

Censorship is much harder to accomplish due to TV and even more so through the internet.

And even for those couch potato's i think Marx would rather see them glued to the TV then being drunk or inside an opium den.

[Ocean Seal]

Television is a technology. It is a tool for whichever class is the ruling class, just like 90% of the inventions out there. The internet on the other hand is too free to be a tool for any class in particular.

[Lanky Wanker]

I didn't even think this question would need an answer. "It's a tool of the ruling class" punched me in the face as soon as I saw the thread title.

[Prinskaj]

That's why the question is what would he think, not what did he think.
Well if you want to argue about grammar, then the proper wording would be "What would Marx have thought about television?"

It's also why I asked for opinions of other Marxists.
Well, I do not consider myself a Marxist, so I couldn't really answer that question..

Thanks for your enlightening reply.
You are welcome, especially since it was clearly meant to be a sarcastic answer, and not to be taken seriously.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

I think out of the hands of the bourgeoisie it can be used in a much more productive manner than it currently is (i,e education, a constant flow on information regarding housing,fiance,food, education, emotional/mental and social needs, etc).I believe the power of mass media can be harnessed do to much more than it is currently doing.As soon as we adopt more widespread positive uses society can use it to assist them during everyday life.
Most people I know seem to care more about Keeping Up With the Kardashians and Jersey Shore than educating themselves. I think at this point in history, most people would care more about their mindless, escapist 'entertainment' than anything remotely educational.

It's depressing. Although, I can't forget that people are overwhelmingly products of their environments. Maybe later intellectual pursuits will be regarded more highly than what rich people are eating for dinner ...

Although, it seems there's a slightly expanding trend of people who watch, say, the National Geographic channel, the Science channel, History International, among others. It's a shame the History channel has degraded into shows about pawn shops and auctioning off storage units of people who can't afford the bill but don't empty it out.

[Fawkes]

1. We don't, and can't, know

2. Why should we care?




I don't mean to come across as a dick, I mean that seriously

[Firebrand]

Personally I think that TV occupies the role that religion used to. thus I think Marx's famous quote on religion applies

Think about it, back in the day people would go to church to help them forget how shit their lives were and dream of a better place. Now people go home and watch TV for pretty much the same reasons.
The bourgeois would use the church to help indoctrinate the poor in much the way that they do now with tv.
People also got their education from the church, and the people in small villages would often get the news from the priest during mass. Very similar to how most people get their information from TV now.
The parallells are striking. The main difference is that watching TV is even more of a passive process than going to church and therefore is much better at generating apathy.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Most people I know seem to care more about Keeping Up With the Kardashians and Jersey Shore than educating themselves. I think at this point in history, most people would care more about their mindless, escapist 'entertainment' than anything remotely educational.

Yes, I agree... one can only assume that once capitalism has been overthrown and media no longer produces cheap profitable shows people will slowly become more tuned to more mentally stimulating entertainment.This isn't to say that all vulgar, violent, or explict or just stupid shows should be banned or not prodcued but just that they won't be made solely for profit and thus mass produced.

[piet11111]

Personally I think that TV occupies the role that religion used to. thus I think Marx's famous quote on religion applies

Think about it, back in the day people would go to church to help them forget how shit their lives were and dream of a better place. Now people go home and watch TV for pretty much the same reasons.
The bourgeois would use the church to help indoctrinate the poor in much the way that they do now with tv.
People also got their education from the church, and the people in small villages would often get the news from the priest during mass. Very similar to how most people get their information from TV now.
The parallells are striking. The main difference is that watching TV is even more of a passive process than going to church and therefore is much better at generating apathy.

And yet seeing the news on the Vietnam war helped to galvanize the anti war movement.
Back when the press still did their job though cant say the news is that useful these days.

[Prinskaj]

There has been a lot of talk about television being a tool of the ruling class. This is true, but without the proper context it sounds vaguely conspiratorial. And to a regular person, who knows little about the subject it sounds along the lines of:"The TV is brainwashing people into believing stuff that ain't true!"
This isn't very beneficial to the cause. It would be better to come with an explanation of why it is so. As obvious as it may seem to us, it doesn't seem that way to all..

[El Louton]

A distraction for the working class which prevents them from waking up.... something along the lines of that?

[balls deep in revolution]

The 2002 coup d'etat in Venezuela, for instance, was more of a virtual TV show than facts: the putschists had no real army as they pretended to in their appearance on TV.this is the only real aspect of tv worth discussion on here, imo.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

And yet seeing the news on the Vietnam war helped to galvanize the anti war movement.
Back when the press still did their job though cant say the news is that useful these days.
The news made Desert Storm and, later, the beginnings of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars look like action movies. They've realized that displaying the negative aspects of war will only generate contempt. Now they're appealing to the overwhelming sense of machismo present in the US and giving the impression that war is 'clean' and 'bad ass' now.

That's part of the reason that WikiLeaks was met with such revulsion. The Iraq war documents, the embassy communications ... it was this generation's Pentagon Papers. At least, on the surface it was. It turned out to have been met with relative apathy by the general public compared to the Pentagon Papers ...

[workersadvocate]

The news made Desert Storm and, later, the beginnings of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars look like action movies. They've realized that displaying the negative aspects of war will only generate contempt. Now they're appealing to the overwhelming sense of machismo present in the US and giving the impression that war is 'clean' and 'bad ass' now.

That's part of the reason that WikiLeaks was met with such revulsion. The Iraq war documents, the embassy communications ... it was this generation's Pentagon Papers. At least, on the surface it was. It turned out to have been met with relative apathy by the general public compared to the Pentagon Papers ...

Indeed, ruling class going to be ruling class, using technology to its fullest to advance their interests.
The tech itself isn't the problem. Class society is the problem. Capitalism in decay and the development of corporatism probably necessitated the kind of mass media offerings we find today (as well as the more vicious attacks on internet file sharing and remaining anonymity online). In today's bourgeois society, I think all means of mass communication--- whether private or "public"---is subordinated to the interests of the ruling class and its state.

[Zostrianos]

I think Marx would include tv as another "Opium of the people". This cartoon aptly illustrates television's negative impact on mankind:
http://www.eatliver.com/img/2011/8052.jpg

[blake 3:17]

I only watch Criminal Minds reruns. I did watch Betty White's 90th Birthday special this week. And hiphop videos on MuchMusic and BET.

[Lynx]

Television as I knew it (networks, fixed schedules) is on the decline. I still make time to follow the news, and a few series, but it isn't as much a part of my life as it once was.

[Firebrand]

And yet seeing the news on the Vietnam war helped to galvanize the anti war movement.
Back when the press still did their job though cant say the news is that useful these days.

Yes the TV has been known to spark rebellion but so did religion, both of them are tools of the ruling class, and both have often been turned on them. The peasants rebellion in England was partly sparked by the radical religious preaching of John Ball "When adam delved and eve span, who was then a gentleman".

[TheGodlessUtopian]

A distraction for the working class which prevents them from waking up.... something along the lines of that?

The same was once said about alcohol...

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

It's also why I asked for opinions of other Marxists.According to my tendency, television plays a central role in maintaining the spectacle, the world view and social relations that mask the poverty of life created by capitalism. See this: (it really starts at 2:30, but then you miss seeing a beautiful naked woman :-)

CV6k_SKkHKQ
We really hate TV the way it is used now. Debord would have had a field day with reality TV shows. We don't care if Marx would agree with us, but I suspect he would.

Ask me to explain just about anything in the film (including the boobs) to make my day. There aren't many situs around to talk to about it :-( tho there are enough of us that we can take partial credit for any good parts of occupy wallstreet.

[Psy]

The primary role of television in capitalism is to advertise to the proletariat, not just with the ads that is why private television stations are in the business but to advertise the ruling class views to the proletariat from within the programs themselves as at the end of the day the owners of television stations are firmly bourgeoisie. Nationalized television is no different, it is just they are owned by a bourgeoisie state that is selling the views of the collective bourgeoisie as seen by the bourgeoisie state.

What is more interesting is what Marx would think of the modern Internet. The Internet was engineered to be decentralized as it was the Internet began life as a military network. The decentralization of the Internet means so far all attempts by the ruling class to control the Internet has failed, the ruling class can't even stop piracy of copyrighted works being hosted on the Internet for free let alone control the ideas the propagate on the Internet.

[SacRedMan]

I think he would say that the TV is a great source for information and entertainment, but also alienates people. Same goes for a laptop, iPad etc.

[MegaBrah]

Who cares, marx was a boring loser for example take this to some up how much of a buzzkillington He was:

"as a relaxation in the evenings I have been reading Appian on the Roman civil wars in the classic greek ..."

[NewLeft]

Television, info tech = the new secular religion of capitalism?

[Deicide]

Who cares, marx was a boring loser for example take this to some up how much of a buzzkillington He was:

"as a relaxation in the evenings I have been reading Appian on the Roman civil wars in the classic greek ..."

I would find that interesting and enjoyable..

I personally don't watch TV, in fact, I don't even use my TV, its been sat in a box for around 2 years now. Although, I do occasionally watch specific TV series or documentaries on my PC. And foreign movies too!

The mindlessness of recent television has killed it for me. I can't bear to see another advertisement for the X-factor or for other similar frivolities. I think Marx would alter his famous phrase 'Religion is the opiate of the masses' to something more appropriate to contempory society.. 'Television is the opiate of the masses'

[Aleenik]

Why is Marx's opinion so much more important than others? Being honest here, why should we care what Marx would think of TV? Does it really matter? He's dead and there is no point speculating what he would think of modern things. He did good things in his life, but it's not like he's the only one who can make analyses of things from a communist perspective. What's important is what we, the current communist, think of them.

[kuros]

Nothing, because he lived before tv was invented.

[piet11111]

Who cares, marx was a boring loser for example take this to some up how much of a buzzkillington He was:

"as a relaxation in the evenings I have been reading Appian on the Roman civil wars in the classic greek ..."

Reading for fun oh noes what a freak he should be burned at the stake :rolleyes:

[Psy]

I think he would say that the TV is a great source for information and entertainment, but also alienates people. Same goes for a laptop, iPad etc.
The Internet and TV is two very different media. There is no SOPA/PIPA for TV because the ruling class owns 100% of the means to get anything on TV. Yet the proletariat already has access to the means of production on the Internet, the Internet gives the worker the same coverage as the capitalist.

In the 1960's Americans had little access to leftists writings now it is only a quick Internet search away as the Internet becomes a archive of all human knowledge and one that the bourgeoisie has yet to control.

[Firebrand]

Who cares, marx was a boring loser for example take this to some up how much of a buzzkillington He was:

"as a relaxation in the evenings I have been reading Appian on the Roman civil wars in the classic greek ..."

Be fair, back then it was either read a book or go watch the stoning.