On This Day - 1965, Winston Churchill dies

[00000000000]

Poster boy for the right (especially in the UK) dies after suffering a stroke.
Cue much mourning and tributes, over 300,000 people filing past his body as it lay in state.

Hate how revered this guy is / was.

"I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and Nazism, I would choose communism". - speaking in Parliament, 1937

Was in favour of letting Ghandi starve himself to death

Favoured abandoning universal suffrage in an essay written in 1930

Favoured the use of chemical weapons against Kurdish tribesmen in Iraq

Acted as a paid consultant for Burmah Oil (now BP) to lobby the British government to allow Burma to have exclusive rights to Persian oil resources, which were successfully granted

...yet he's often considered the 'Greatest Briton' or Greatest Prime Minister...ugh :mad:

[NewSocialist]

Most people don't know what a piece of waste the guy was. He was a fan of Mussolini and admired Fascism so much that I bet if the war never started he would have been standing side by side with animals like Oswold Moseley. He didn't beat Fascism like everyone says -it was the British American and Soviet PEOPLE who did plus the tons of Anti-Fascism groups in the countries that were under Fascist occupation.

[dodger]

Most people don't know what a piece of waste the guy was. He was a fan of Mussolini and admired Fascism so much that I bet if the war never started he would have been standing side by side with animals like Oswold Moseley. He didn't beat Fascism like everyone says -it was the British American and Soviet PEOPLE who did plus the tons of Anti-Fascism groups in the countries that were under Fascist occupation.

The war over Britons unceremoniously kicked 'Winnie' from office. It was said and oft repeated, that workers had another idea what a land fit for heroes might look like. He was much loved as a war leader, notwithstanding strategic errors. North Africa. He also said the war was unnecessary pushed for TRIPLE ALLIANCE. Agreed with the dash for the Curzon and opposed the arming of Finns with 100,000 rifles and various planes and ordinance along with British soldiers. His overarching concern was the continuation of Empire, a war in Europe he rightly saw would shatter imperial dreams. I saw his coffin come into St pauls carried up the steps, as a youth. I was employed in the wholesale rag trade. The premises were in the churchyard. There was food and drink laid on, but it meant nothing to me, or indeed any of the youngsters, beyond getting squiffey on the free beer. He was remote, belonged to another age. He is quite possibly one of the most disgraceful persons to have ever walked the planet. Thankfully Stalin and the Soviets were more than a match for him, on every level. Inasmuch he was along with Eden a realist, he never let his rabid anti communism get in the way of imperial interest. Too many utterly disgraceful incidents from his life to recount here, a half hour Wiki will fill a Black Book.

[Veovis]

Wasn't he in charge of British military actions in Ireland after the Easter Rising of 1916?

[FourKnocks]

He was also a big fan of eugenics, advocating the sterilisation of "the feeble-minded and insane classes".

[citizen of industry]

Good riddance

[FourKnocks]

He was a big fan of eugenics, advocating the sterilisation of "the feeble-minded and insane classes".

[RevSpetsnaz]

He was what Britian needed at the time and is one of the great leaders of the 20th century. I admire him.

[Zealot]

And nothing of value was lost.

[Red Commissar]

Wasn't he in charge of British military actions in Ireland after the Easter Rising of 1916?

Churchill had been involved in the colonial ministry of the United Kingdom. In his capacity as Secretary of Secretary of State for the Colonies he was one of those there when the Anglo-Irish Treaty was signed creating the Irish Free State and guaranteeing continued use of certain ports by the British- and later supported the Free State against Republican forces during the civil war.

Churchill during the period of WWI and its aftermath was more involved in operations against the Ottoman Empire and later the attempts to build British influence there- many discussions by British functionaries concerning the new mandates of the Middle-East would have Churchill pop up from time to time. As OP mentions he was among those involved in putting down Arab and Kurdish tribal rebellions blowing out in the Mandate of Iraq- advocating for use of gas against Kurdish elements during the Sheikh Barzinji rebellion, which was one of many attempts at resisting the imposition of power (Churchill apparently thought this would be more effective and 'humane'!). This with finding ways to essentially 'squeeze' what is now Iraq into submission by manipulating food and funding to the new mandate as well as making certain 'alliances' with powerful local notables. This period also saw the use of aircraft being used on civilian centers on a large scale, surpassing the airship raids in WW I, setting a precedent of things to come years later.

Churchill also naturally had some strong opinions on the October Revolution and the Bolsheviks, advocating for intervention on the side of the Whites to destroy the movement. That is more in line with many of his peers, as one would expect.

Unfortunately Churchill wasn't alone in this, just brings an example of how many leaders from his generation shared his elitist and social darwinist views on society. Lot of the zany views he had on peoples outside of the 'civilized' fold of English culture and eugenics were in fashion then for members of his class, even those who considered themselves 'intellectuals' and reformers unfortunately. Like a lot of people who get lionized after their deaths due to their contributions, real or perceived, the unsavory parts of their personality are glossed over if not white washed. You'll find that with many of these criticisms leveled against Churchill, there's a group of people ready to counter that with apologetics or another interpretation of events.

Plus, when he receives praise, it's usually due to his time in WW II, I don't think you find as many talking about what he did during his second stint as PM in the early 50s. Another thing for 'progressives' here was during his time of course was the MI6 involvement in overthrowing the Mossadeq government in Iran.

Plus, he's not always a neat fit for the conservatives of today. I think that Churchill's endorsement of a "United States of Europe" would not fly too well with the Tory Euroskeptics who otherwise heap praises on him (though Churchill's idea of this may've been different from what the EU is now, and of course with UK holding more sway). Similar to how Republicans here see Reagan as a champion of a 'balanced' budget even though debt still increased in his term. Guess Democrats in the US can be seen as falling into this with Bill Clinton, FDR, and JFK too.

But for what ever reason he represents a 'strong leader in desperate times' that people just are supposed to respect if not admire. I think at the end it's really all about the perception of his leadership during WW II which fashions most of his image, along with the usual flamboyance and 'manly' characteristics (Americans can compare this to Theodore Roosevelt).

[Thirsty Crow]

He was a fan of Mussolini and admired Fascism so much that I bet if the war never started he would have been standing side by side with animals like Oswold Moseley.Don't give animals a bad name, most of them are wonderful creatures.

[Olentzero]

I saw his coffin come into St pauls carried up the steps, as a youth. I was employed in the wholesale rag trade. The premises were in the churchyard. There was food and drink laid on, but it meant nothing to me, or indeed any of the youngsters, beyond getting squiffey on the free beer.Best Churchill story ever.

[Ocean Seal]

He was what Britian needed at the time and is one of the great leaders of the 20th century. I admire him.


"Nothing could be more significant than the fury with which Trotsky has attacked the Zionists generally, and Dr. Weizmann, in particular. The cruel penetration of his mind leaves him in no doubt that his schemes of a worldwide communist State under Jewish domination are directly thwarted and hindered by this new ideal, which directs the energies and the hopes of Jews in every land towards a simpler, a truer, and a far more attainable goal."


Churchill was a pro-Zionist and an ironic believer in the Judeo-Bolshevik conspiracy to create a worldwide Jewish state under Bolshevism.


In 1927 he told Italy's Fascist Party, "If I had been an Italian, I would have been entirely with you from the beginning to the end of your victorious struggle against the bestial appetites and passions of Leninism."

Supported Mussolini


After Hitler came to power, Churchill proclaimed that "if our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations." When the Spanish civil war broke out, Nazi pilots helped Franco overthrow the Left-led republic, armed by Stalin. Churchill announced that he "will not pretend that, if I had to choose between Communism or Nazism, I would choose Communism."


And Hitler


I do not admit that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race, has come in and taken their place

Look at the nice things that he had to say about Native Americans and Australians.

I could contribute more, but I think that everyone gets the point.

[Triple A]

This was the guy that ordered troops to fire on indian peacefull protesters and that caused thousands of english and british empire soldiers to die in Turkey in WW1.
Thank god Clement Atlee won in WW2 aftermath

[Tim Cornelis]

Winston Churchill also was responsible for the murder of 3,000,000 Bengali citizens because he refused to send or allow food into the Bengal province.


By August 1943 it was clear that the Allies had won the battle and there was plenty of shipping available. Mukkerjee (2011) analyses why Churchill still failed to send food to India. In response to an urgent request by the Secretary of State for India, Leo Amery, and Viceroy of India Archibald Wavell, to release food stocks for India, Winston Churchill the Prime Minister of that time responded with a telegram to Wavell asking, if food was so scarce, "why Gandhi hadn’t died yet."[52][53] Initially during the famine he was more concerned with the civilians of Greece (who were also suffering from a famine) compared with the Bengalis.[54]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943

[RevSpetsnaz]

Just because i admire someone doesnt mean i agree with their stances on certain issues.

[Bronco]

Just because i admire someone doesnt mean i agree with their stances on certain issues.

You would think that everything that's been posted in this thread would give you good enough reason to not admire him though

What exactly is that you admire about him?

[RevSpetsnaz]

You would think that everything that's been posted in this thread would give you good enough reason to not admire him though

What exactly is that you admire about him?

His tenacity, leadership, stubborness to surrender in the face of annihilation and not to mention his phenominal ability as a writer and speaker.

[Bronco]

His tenacity, leadership, stubborness to surrender in the face of annihilation and not to mention his phenominal ability as a writer and speaker.

Hmm you could say all that about Hitler as well; he was stubborn, determined, absolutely refused to surrender and he was an excellent orator as well. You can acknowledge those qualities without having to admire the person possessing them.

[RevSpetsnaz]

Hmm you could say all that about Hitler as well; he was stubborn, determined, absolutely refused to surrender and he was an excellent orator as well. You can acknowledge those qualities without having to admire the person possessing them.

I admire Hitler for his orating, as far as his other leadership abilities i would call them nothing short of an ignorant sense of invicibility. I admire the qualities however theyre not often found in history, let alone within one person.

[Ballyfornia]

"I think a curse should rest on me, because I love this war. I know it's smashing and shattering the lives of thousands every moment ‑ and yet I can't help it ‑ I enjoy every second of it.",

"This movement among the Jews is not new. It is part of a world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, envious malevolence, and impossible equality."

http://www.marxist.com/winston-churchill-modern-myth-1.htm
http://www.marxist.com/winston-churchill-modern-myth-2.htm

[rednordman]

You know I wish that this would have been posted in OIs or some right-wing forum, just to see people try and debunk what people have said on this thread. Some of the quotes are almost unbelievable. How can this man be held in such high regard? In many ways, it makes sense that he is used as a icon for parties like BNP and groups as EDL. He sounds like a full-blown fascist.

On another note, is he really actually held in that much regard at all. For instance, BNP and EDL and the Tories are of people who where never around during WW2. Do they all have rose tinted glasses as to who he actually was.

My granddad was around during WW2 and although he is the hard side of labour, he hated him.

Do that generation actually hold him in high regard?, or is that a case of the modern media speaking for them. After all, he lost the next election after WW2 rather badly.

[Arm Cathartha na hÉireann]

You know I wish that this would have been posted in OIs or some right-wing forum, just to see people try and debunk what people have said on this thread. Some of the quotes are almost unbelievable. How can this man be held in such high regard? In many ways, it makes sense that he is used as a icon for parties like BNP and groups as EDL. He sounds like a full-blown fascist.

On another note, is he really actually held in that much regard at all. For instance, BNP and EDL and the Tories are of people who where never around during WW2. Do they all have rose tinted glasses as to who he actually was.

My granddad was around during WW2 and although he is the hard side of labour, he hated him.

Do that generation actually hold him in high regard?, or is that a case of the modern media speaking for them. After all, he lost the next election after WW2 rather badly.

This is something I have wondered myself since there were no elections between 1935-45 (difficult to gauge peoples actually opinion), and post world war II he lost the 45 and 50 election he could not have been held in such high esteem by the British people as is made out. I think a lot of people from the younger generations only have a simplistic view of him based around his rousing speeches and the idea that he and he alone lead us through WWII perputated through our media and eduction system.

[dodger]

My observation, born 1947, lived in London from age of 7. People took a very mature approach regards Churchill. They acknowledged his war years and his struggle against Chamberlain. The dark days following Dunkirk, the first victory of the war in the Battle of Britain and Battle of the Atlantic. Yes the feelings were strong, real not media generated like Thatcher(Belgrano). As I pointed out earlier in the thread and others too, he was rejected after the job was done. The British are no warrior race or caste we love peace, most people 1: wanted to put the war behind them. 2: Desire for a different Britain(no going back to 30's) 3: a hatred of the trappings of class distinction( they had seen their 'betters' without their corsets and it was not a pretty sight, in the battlefield etc. So I would say Churchill's time came and went. It was very noticeable as a child, we were protected from any harsh talk or memories, they had jokey anecdotes aplenty. They regaled us with stories how people all came together, vivid memories, how they dealt with queue jumpers. The colonial stiffs they hated, snobs too. A hat with ostrich feathers was an object of ridicule not fear or respect. The Royals all had 2 ins of water in their baths(how do we know?..because they told us, silly!!) they stayed in Buck house during the Blitz(how do we know? because the Royal Standard was flying....silly!!). It was even said by many that the "looney bins were emptied!" people were wanted and needed.All were needed for the war effort. That really was my experience, memories child, teenager and so on.1945 election my pa still out in far east voted Labour for the first and last time. The 'forgotten army' resentment and desire for change prompted him. I was always given this one piece of advice as a lad "Never volunteer for anything!!"....the adults all nodded when that was said. To this day I never have!

No Rednordman there were things about the war, and people too, that were hated and contempt reserved for, Churchill was not one of them.

[Aleenik]

And on that day in 1965 many other people were born and died, yet because they weren't as much a piece of shit as Winston Churchill, they aren't remembered.

[REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL]

well he had his good qualities clearly, despite backward ass views.

i'm curious about how many of these quotes reflect strongly held positions, rather than just a off the cuff phrase - it'd be easy to portray marx as some huge twat (because people often do!) because of the shit he wrote in less formal circumstances.

[Prometeo liberado]

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/395045_300229390018794_100000952052060_861906_9095 80185_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=300229390018794&set=a.189005244474543.38844.100000952052060&type=1&ref=nf)

Saw this on a thread a while back and saved it. Seems very fitting now.

[Pretty Flaco]

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/395045_300229390018794_100000952052060_861906_9095 80185_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=300229390018794&set=a.189005244474543.38844.100000952052060&type=1&ref=nf)

Saw this on a thread a while back and saved it. Seems very fitting now.

lol i like that picture. i think i'll use it.

[RevSpetsnaz]

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s320x320/395045_300229390018794_100000952052060_861906_9095 80185_n.jpg (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=300229390018794&set=a.189005244474543.38844.100000952052060&type=1&ref=nf)

Saw this on a thread a while back and saved it. Seems very fitting now.

Except for those given by the thousands that showed up, one hundred and ten of which were world leaders, and the three hundred and fifty million worldwide that tuned in on their televisions.

[Prometeo liberado]

Except for those given by the thousands that showed up, one hundred and ten of which were world leaders, and the three hundred and fifty million worldwide that tuned in on their televisions.



I've seen a dog fuck. Doesn't mean I give one.

[Ostrinski]

well he had his good qualities clearly, despite backward ass views.

i'm curious about how many of these quotes reflect strongly held positions, rather than just a off the cuff phrase - it'd be easy to portray marx as some huge twat (because people often do!) because of the shit he wrote in less formal circumstances.ahem

[RevSpetsnaz]

I've seen a dog fuck. Doesn't mean I give one.

Well a lot of people did when Churchill died.

[dodger]

And on that day in 1965 many other people were born and died, yet because they weren't as much a piece of shit as Winston Churchill, they aren't remembered.

Let's hope those that were born and died were not remembered as shit.

Unlike Churchill, long dead but not truly forgotten even in 2010.

TONYPANDY 1911…..Indeed the whole of South Wales to this day hold CHURCHILL IN LOW REGARD,(last year , 99years after the RHONDDA RIOTS a Welsh Council objected to a Street named after him) …….LONG MEMORIES IN THE COALFIELDS……

Below a reply from an American chap to a post I made........above

Dodge:

"In 1926 during the Great Strike in Britain Churchill (then in his 50s and a government minister) spoke about the striking coalminers saying:

“I will drive those rats back into their holes.”

I heard about this fully fifty years later, from a West Virginia coal miner who spit out Churchill’s name with bitterness. Now many of you will remember this. Long memories, indeed!"

Gangsterio...I don't think the above shows that "Winnie's" words were off the cuff but uttered with deep fear, loathing, in short class hatred. Those utterances were accepted as provocation and insult, duly taken down and noted. Kicking him out of office and attendant humiliation after his work in the war was our response. 'tis a pity we never went the whole hog and dispossessed the whole kit and kaboodle, a more fitting response. Class mattered then, it matters now.

As to the famine I learnt of it from my parents who served in the far east and had witnessed the aftermath. Terrible. I was made more conscious by a local teacher, a Bengali herself, from Calcutta. I mentioned Churchill, strange to say, having witnessed that heinous crime she reserved the greater ire and hatred for those of her countrymen who had profited or connived. Again the response was to add further blows against Churchill, 1947 saw the end of India as a prized colonial possession.