How Thatcherism came to define the left

[MarxSchmarx]

Here's an interesting article in the reformist rag New Statesman:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2012/01/labour-government-thatcher

The gist of the argument is that the left in Britain has been fighting a war of defense for too long. Not a lot of it new, but it does raise an interesting point:


If the left of Labour exists simply to oppose the measures we don't like, we will never convince a democratic majority that a radical, workable alternative to Thatcherism exists. We become the new conservatives - speaking only of protecting and reinstating past glories.

I think this is true about a lot of the left. Opposition alone does not inspire people, and there is a very reactionary quality to a lot of the focus of the left's activism.

Indeed, as the article states:


While the left have a long and proud tradition of protest, the modern language of the left has become almost exclusively the language of opposition. Defend, stop, protect. The image of the left has become an image of protest. We march, we chant, we demand.

Since Thatcher, the left have fought to conserve or restore what came before, while the right have imposed far-reaching culture-changing policies. David Cameron's Government have taken up this "everything must change" mantra with alarming force. Within one term of office they will have changed so much of what we expect from government and the state.


The basic insight is well articulated. The system is not working, nor was it working 20-50 years ago, although some areas of life were better. However, the Thatcherites of the world have entirely redefined the dominant discourse and the left offers no compelling alternative. A substantial majority of leftist activism is basically just trying to say no without. But it is a defensive war that the left is losing and yet the course is not being reversed.

Many of us already know this, and I suspect an even greater number of people recognize the reality on some level but don't know what else to do but loudly object to Thatcherism - over, and over, and over again. It's pretty clear to me this is no longer a winning strategy.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Comrade, I support the notion of opposition. However, there is a difference between opposition for opposition's sake and opposition with unambiguous programs, comprehensive policy solutions, etc. or what some here have mistakenly derided as "poseurism" and "advertising communism."

That's why I posted Peter Thatchell's economic democracy stuff in Theory, because he noted to me that the left is too stuck in tred-iunion and other mere labour disputes, not to mention NIMBY localism.

[MegaBrah]

Here's an interesting article in the reformist rag New Statesman:




I think this is true about a lot of the left. Opposition alone does not inspire people, and there is a very reactionary quality to a lot of the focus of the left's activism.


While this is true, it is also unavoidable, the fact is what unites people is being against the most extreme manifestations of exploitation, so while anti conserative, anti thatcher sentiment may mean the activist left is swamped with lifestylist identity politics, the sentiment itself is what unites working people who are not involved in the flag waving chanting activist crowd, because they are working class and have to go to work :)

An example, a workmate had the radio on at work and when something came on about the new film coming out about maggie, she said:

"they make a mum claiming benefits out to be evil and they are making a film about that bastard"

It is not the most radical sentiment but it opens up possibilites to slag politicians off which is always fun :) and also makes it easier to talk about politics with people in the workplace and start to talk about all politicans and the system that they operate in being inherently oppressive, not individuals or political factions within the same system choosing to be for or against the working class.

This is a radicals bread and butter, anti tori sentiment is great, while the maoists are in the basement going over the intricacies of the cultural revolution, real working class militants are busy in the real world trying to organise in their workplace and bring change from mass movement, not writing FARC and putting Che canvas paintings up and cheering the DPRK shit football team.

[blake 3:17]

This is a radicals bread and butter, anti tori sentiment is great, while the maoists are in the basement going over the intricacies of the cultural revolution, real working class militants are busy in the real world trying to organise in their workplace and bring change from mass movement, not writing FARC and putting Che canvas paintings up and cheering the DPRK shit football team.

Sorry just spent the afternoon being lectured by IS/anarcho type academics -- Che was real shit & speaks to the shop floor injustices & fuck the bosses & smash imperialism.

Lesser evil, lowest common denominator stuff is crapola. Really pisses me off as a worker.

[MegaBrah]

Sorry just spent the afternoon being lectured by IS/anarcho type academics -- Che was real shit & speaks to the shop floor injustices & fuck the bosses & smash imperialism.

Lesser evil, lowest common denominator stuff is crapola. Really pisses me off as a worker.

Fuck che, He is dead, people need to stop making an idol out of a middle class romantic who had no concept of working class revolution or the working class as a real force of change, rather He would go play in the mountains and and chillax with peasants and try and create a revolution based on an armed group of people, not workers, siezing state control.


So I guess Che missed the first tennant of communism and thought fuck organising workers in the workplace and siezing the means of production, fuck setting up democratic councils to control society, fuck not locking homosexuals in camps, lets just go with the flow.

People who think che had the right idea about revolution ignore the fact the only reason the "revolution happened was because of the role the urban workers played, the internal disintegration of the armed forces and the social movements that were ongoing before a bunch of macho, middle class intellectuals tricked some peasants into installing them into power.

Then we wrap this che worship in stupid arguements like look, state capitalist cuba has some redeeming features compared to other places in the region, like being a little better than capitalist third world conditions is a reason to support a shitty regime that oppresses the working class and is restoring private capitalism as we speak.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It is not the most radical sentiment but it opens up possibilites to slag politicians off which is always fun :) and also makes it easier to talk about politics with people in the workplace and start to talk about all politicans and the system that they operate in being inherently oppressive, not individuals or political factions within the same system choosing to be for or against the working class.

I used to believe something similar, but not anymore. The problem with basing your criticisms off Margaret Thatcher or the Tories or David Cameron etc. is that your criticism will most likely resonate on those topics and then die. Thinking that you're going to build a mass movement for the abolition of capitalism from campaigns revolving around resisting "Tory cuts" or whatever is delusional.

[MegaBrah]

I used to believe something similar, but not anymore. The problem with basing your criticisms off Margaret Thatcher or the Tories or David Cameron etc. is that your criticism will most likely resonate on those topics and then die. Thinking that you're going to build a mass movement for the abolition of capitalism from campaigns revolving around resisting "Tory cuts" or whatever is delusional.

True, which is why I siad its a starter, to then engage in deeper more radical discussion, which I have seen alot of mileage in, including getting a workmate to unionise and start talking on his own about working and living under the current system.

Its delusional to say organising is hard so lets be miserable bastards and go protest for a day or go to an occupy and act like its in anyway meaningful :) not that you do that of course.

[Ned Kelly]

What is it with DNZ labelling things as 'mere labour struggles?'. Not exactly endearing to our core audience..eh?

[Die Neue Zeit]

For all the rhetoric, even most of the most militant of struggles within a trade union framework aren't really political. Also, I said "mere labour disputes" to use the proper, more legalistic term for collective bargaining, work stoppages, etc.

[RadioRaheem84]

Fuck che, He is dead, people need to stop making an idol out of a middle class romantic who had no concept of working class revolution or the working class as a real force of change, rather He would go play in the mountains and and chillax with peasants and try and create a revolution based on an armed group of people, not workers, siezing state control.


So I guess Che missed the first tennant of communism and thought fuck organising workers in the workplace and siezing the means of production, fuck setting up democratic councils to control society, fuck not locking homosexuals in camps, lets just go with the flow.

People who think che had the right idea about revolution ignore the fact the only reason the "revolution happened was because of the role the urban workers played, the internal disintegration of the armed forces and the social movements that were ongoing before a bunch of macho, middle class intellectuals tricked some peasants into installing them into power.

Then we wrap this che worship in stupid arguements like look, state capitalist cuba has some redeeming features compared to other places in the region, like being a little better than capitalist third world conditions is a reason to support a shitty regime that oppresses the working class and is restoring private capitalism as we speak.

Must it be so simple to you? Sorry Che was no Durruti. :rolleyes:

[Os Cangaceiros]

True, which is why I siad its a starter, to then engage in deeper more radical discussion, which I have seen alot of mileage in, including getting a workmate to unionise and start talking on his own about working and living under the current system.

Its delusional to say organising is hard so lets be miserable bastards and go protest for a day or go to an occupy and act like its in anyway meaningful :) not that you do that of course.

What I'm saying is that even if you start the conversation there with the intention of developing your criticism farther, there's no guarantee that your criticisms will resonate outside of the immediate demands you bring up initially. It's the logic that encourages allying with the Labour Party (or the Democrats, for those who live in the USA). Any radical ideas will get drowned under calls for reforms.

[MegaBrah]

Must it be so simple to you? Sorry Che was no Durruti. :rolleyes:

Durruti is dead too, the civil war is over, living in the 30s is not my bag baby.

[blake 3:17]

Fuck che, He is dead, people need to stop making an idol out of a middle class romantic who had no concept of working class revolution or the working class as a real force of change, rather He would go play in the mountains and and chillax with peasants and try and create a revolution based on an armed group of people, not workers, siezing state control.


No go crazy for an idealized shop floor. I`ve been hearing economist junk so long my ears bleed.

The urban movement, really confined to Havana, fought the bosses in alliance and sympathy with the July 26 movement. The radical urban sections of the Cuban working class that effectively joined the revolution did it through means of sabotage.

The Communist Party (ie the CP before the revolution) was thoroughly reformist.

Anyways thread drift.

[Die Neue Zeit]

What I'm saying is that even if you start the conversation there with the intention of developing your criticism farther, there's no guarantee that your criticisms will resonate outside of the immediate demands you bring up initially. It's the logic that encourages allying with the Labour Party (or the Democrats, for those who live in the USA). Any radical ideas will get drowned under calls for reforms.

Then it becomes a question of defining immediate demands and the methods used to define them, doesn't it?

[MegaBrah]

What I'm saying is that even if you start the conversation there with the intention of developing your criticism farther, there's no guarantee that your criticisms will resonate outside of the immediate demands you bring up initially. It's the logic that encourages allying with the Labour Party (or the Democrats, for those who live in the USA). Any radical ideas will get drowned under calls for reforms.

talking about the state, hierachy and capitalism is not realistic in any way shape or form, people who say these things always seem like they ahve never worked, its just not realistic to get into heavy discussion like that with someone who does not even know what capitalism is or know what change they even want.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Yeah, as if "Agitate! Agitate! Agitate!" has worked in the long run, huh?

[Lynx]

Update: How Austerity came to define the left

[Die Neue Zeit]

Update: How Austerity came to define the left

I just posted Boris Kagarlitsky's most recent article, which is my own answer, too.