Core value of communards

[Strannik]

I had this weird thought that socialism/communism could be explained better, if I could begin with its core value. This seems perhaps idealistic, but I don't think it really is for ideas reflect the actual material situation in society.

For example, I could say that the core value of feudal society is the rule of law. This reflects the material reality of feudal society - feudalism is about establishing protected areas where most people could specialize on agricultural production without worrying about being killed by random raiders.

Of course, as forces of production develop, a social system becomes obsolete. When feudalism became obsolete, its core value, the Law, was challenged by revolutionary bourgeoise. They said, that Laws are nice and all, but Freedom is more important. Laws are only okay if they support the freedom. This of course only reflects the material need of finance capital to grow and extend its reach.

Today we see that capitalism and its ideology has become as absurd as absolute monarchy once was. Is it possible to formulate core value of socialists, derived from its material mode of production - kind of where we say that yes, freedom is well and good, but this is more important. Freedom is good only if it leads to... welfare? (Doesn't sound quite right).

I think this would help to quickly contrast socialism to both capitalism and reactionary forces that look for answers in pre-capitalist modes of production.

Sorry if this way of thought seems peculiar, but I can't explain it better. :)

[Blake's Baby]

I think what you're grasping at sounds both right and sensible. Seems to me that what you're after is a way of critiquing each society from its own starting point, pointing out how the succeeding society will help to overcome the limitations of the previous one.

Capitalism championed universal 'freedom' - for instance 'liberty, equality, fraternity' - but it was only, in the end, freedom for the bourgeoisie. Even now, capitalist mythmakers (eg the 'anarcho-capitalists') claim that if one is opposed to wage labour one is free to start one's own business. That idea (particularly prevelant in America, I think it has something to do with the Pioneers/Frontier homesteaders) that all you have to do is find something/somewhere away from other people and start doing it yourself.

What aspects of the (unfulfilled) capitalist project does socialism have to 'put right'? Universal freedom is one; we will be freer under socialism because we will be economically as well as legally free. Capitalist society made us all theoretically equal before the law, but couldn't deliver real equality or freedom. Under socialism we'll be not just free to work or free to starve, but free to live, because we won't be subject to the arbitrary power of others who control the material wealth.

So critiquing the notion of 'freedom' under capitalism looks like a good place to start. Alienation and wage slavery are probably where you want to start with that, I'd guess.

[Mr. Natural]

The "freedom" enshrined in bourgeois law is the freedom to enslave labor.

The core value of socialism/communism is COMMUNITY. Community is the core value of all forms of life--human and non-human. In community, all elements belong, give, and receive. Life is community whether it is a cell with its internal and external communal relations or a socialist/communist workplace with its internal/external relations.

There is no separate life, save for the human species' astoundingly alienated, self-destructive existence within global capitalism. We cannot continue much longer in profound opposition to life.

Marx: "We shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all." Manifesto

Marx: "Only in community [with others has each] individual the means of cultivating his gifts in all directions; only in the community, therefore, is personal freedom possible." German Ideology

Engels: "Marx assumes on page 56 [of Capital] 'a community of free individuals, carrying on their work with the means of production in common, in which the labour-power of all the different individuals is consciously applied as the combined labour-power of the community'." Anti-Duhring

Life and communism are community, and I feel the need to note that far too much of the discussion that takes place on left forums is neither comradely nor communal.

[Rooster]

I had this weird thought that socialism/communism could be explained better, if I could begin with its core value

Simple, really. Communists aim for the revolution of society which takes place when the means of production are appropriated from private ownership and made common.


For example, I could say that the core value of feudal society is the rule of law. This reflects the material reality of feudal society - feudalism is about establishing protected areas where most people could specialize on agricultural production without worrying about being killed by random raiders.

I'm not really sure I get what you're saying here. You could say that the rule of law is a core value of capitalism if you believe what libertarians say.


Of course, as forces of production develop, a social system becomes obsolete. When feudalism became obsolete, its core value, the Law, was challenged by revolutionary bourgeoise. They said, that Laws are nice and all, but Freedom is more important. Laws are only okay if they support the freedom. This of course only reflects the material need of finance capital to grow and extend its reach.

Again, I'm not too sure at what you're getting at. All societies have had a system of law. From ancient slave, to feudal, capitalist and everything in between. Law is just part of the structure of society and as society changes then laws change.


Today we see that capitalism and its ideology has become as absurd as absolute monarchy once was. Is it possible to formulate core value of socialists, derived from its material mode of production - kind of where we say that yes, freedom is well and good, but this is more important. Freedom is good only if it leads to... welfare? (Doesn't sound quite right).

Freedom is good. We should have more freedom and more democracy, extend that to the work place and to all parts of society. And the end goal of this is the revolutionising of the mode of production like I said earlier. The difficulty in this lies the fact that this point has been obfuscated by various states and certain political parties over the years until that socialism now means anything state controlled but still within a capitalist frame work.


I think this would help to quickly contrast socialism to both capitalism and reactionary forces that look for answers in pre-capitalist modes of production.

Sorry if this way of thought seems peculiar, but I can't explain it better. :)

Hm. Maybe I'm just tired from work, but I found this post was hard to follow. I'm not sure that socialism needs to be simplified for people to get it's main points because it's simple enough. I'm not sure who even looks for answers to crises in capitalism in pre-capitalist modes of production, or who even tries to articulate a form of capitalism as such. It seems to me that the two most common solutions to capitalism is either more state or less state. And the socialist answer would be to say "ignore the state and look to production" and then try to explain class and how the production process works.

[MegaBrah]

Communards...:rolleyes:

This is why leftists are lame as people with legs that don't work.

In response, real communists have amazing values, its those who call themselves communists while also and get this, want to establish a state and build a hierachal centralised authoritarian government, keep workers as wage slaves while an inner circle get to swashbuckle like charlie sheen on a power trip and establish a cult of personality that even my insane man crush on chris Leben can't match who need to check themselves before they wreck themselves.

Eloquent:cool:

[ellipsis]

This is why leftists are lame as people with legs that don't work.


Verbal warning for borderline ableism.

welcome to the forum, please be conscious of the language that you use.

[Beorc]

The core value of socialism/communism is COMMUNITY.


I would agree with this.

I would say "Frith" myself, mostly because it comes from my faith.

Frith is the bond you have with those in your community (you could almost call it brotherhood, but it implies much more of a responsibility). It obligates you to look out for your neighbors and to help them when they need it (and they are in turn obligated to do the same for you).

I know people look down upon religion in socialist/communist groups, but I am proud of my faith and I feel my faith only bolsters my political views further.

[Strannik]

Community - this is what I had in mind. And I said "communards" deliberately. Revolution is means to an end, I was thinking about the world after that - in the end all history: feudal, capitalist, communist is one continuous human history.

And I guess this is the answer: the "criticism" of the bourgeois values is - yes, freedom is good, but not the kind of freedom that destroys the communal bonds.

And I realize that this sounds idealistic and simplifying, but in order to explain something it is convenient to use abstract models.