Socialist morals/virtues

[Black_Rose]

nobody cares about your shitty principles. you are not going to get a medal for being "good communist".

While I was composing a letter to a Catholic priest, I wrote this (which I will likely not include in the finished version):


As for myself, my political vocation is to:


show mercy and do not judge or callously disregard the economically dispossessed and disenfranchised, as their condition is caused by systemic injustice, not their personal flaws
do not hold the material interests of the economically disenfranchised in contempt; in the spirit of economic egalitarianism, their economic interests are as important as yours
assiduously educate myself in political philosophy, history, and economics
admonish my ideological friends for misconceived thoughts and ignorance while also being receptive to similar criticism
foment and maintain hope for a future revolution, even while succumbing to short-term defeatism
respect, act deferentially, and exhibit humility to the knowledgeable and virtuous (the virtues are enumerated herein)
venerate those who sacrificed and endured adversity for the sake of advancing the revolution;
and live a modest and frugal life, pursuing contentment and satisfaction, not profligate indulgence or luxury, since that would impede with the cultivation of important political talents and virtues.

The virtues are listed in order of importance.

The strategy is to ensure our survival through the virtue, knowledge, diligence, patience, dedication, and sincerity of the followers during its “pilgrim state”.
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I hope my advocacy of virtue is not "idealistic" or "moralistic", although it is easy for one to interpret it that way. These are general, fluid guidelines, not rigid prescriptions or prohibitions.

[Ostrinski]

nobody cares about your shitty principles. you are not going to get a medal for being "good communist".

[blake 3:17]

You might to read Philip Berrigan's Prison Journals of a Priest Revolutionary. He and his brother got thrown in jail for throwing blood on a draft office's records and notices.

Given that socialism isn't on the immediate agenda, it is primarily an ethical/moral position as "scientific" as some here make out.

[MotherCossack]

i would hope that most of us are not interested in getting medals for being 'good communists'.
having said that it certainly would not do us any harm to try and be good communists.
furthermore, i would argue that one of the most important principles, which really should be included, or at least addressed, is one that puts the actualization of desired change near the top of any list of priorities.
that said, i would agree that the manner in which we conduct ourselves as human beings and the way we relate to others in a social context, with respect, would be at the core of and central to, certainly my dreams of a desirable socialist or communist state.
Hey, just because we are, under-performing to the nth degree, [by we i mean the left],
doesn'nt mean we should become mean and turn on each other...it won't help, either....
quite the reverse!
Keep your eye on the ball people.... there is a world of them out there, and they have made it their own!!!
lets regroup, turn around and get ready to fight. we have a world to win and a planet to save!

[ernie2]

Black Rose: Why are you writing a letter to a Catholic priest?

[Comrade Jandar]

As revolutionary socialists we tend to shy away from moralism and idealism. On the whole I think this a good thing. However I do think revolutionary socialists should still abide by certain principles and should not completely ignore morality. Engels actually addresses this in the Anti-Duhring.

"...we find the modern bourgeois morality and beside it also proletarian morality of the future...Which then is the true one? Not one of them, in the sense of absolute finality; but certainly that morality contains the maximum elements promising permanence which, in the present, represents the overthrow of the present, represents the future, and that is proletarian morality."

To me it is impossible to divorce morality from my stance as a revolutionary socialist. While I do believe that revolution does come from the material circumstances, it is still important have certain values or "proletarian morality." Practicing what you preach is not bourgeois or idealistic. There have been many leaders in the socialist movement who have parried criticism or accusations of bourgeois behavior and practices by hiding behind materialism and claiming their critics are idealists.

[Lobotomy]

Hey, just because we are, under-performing to the nth degree, [by we i mean the left],
doesn'nt mean we should become mean and turn on each other...it won't help, either....
quite the reverse!


too late :unsure:

[The Stalinator]

Black Rose: Why are you writing a letter to a Catholic priest?

It's fun to bicker with religious people, even though you know they won't listen to a thing you're saying, it helps blow off steam, eh?

[Revolution starts with U]

nobody cares about your shitty principles. you are not going to get a medal for being "good communist".

You know, I was thinking about this, and the thought occured to me...

I care about your shitty morals and principles. So this statement is obviously devoid of any factual reality. Politicians care about your shitty morals and principles to, they use them to take advantage of you.

And then I thought. "hmm, maybe that's the key to the Stalin's and Mao's of the world. No matter what the intentions are, our shitty morals and principles will get in the way."

[Black_Rose]

It's fun to bicker with religious people, even though you know they won't listen to a thing you're saying, it helps blow off steam, eh?

I am going to be honest with you.

I am actually praying to the Judeo-Christian deity before going to sleep during the last few days. I know that a supposedly omniscient God should be able to anticipate my prayers before I am able to articulate them, but the act of entreating God while knelling besides is a sincere gesture of humility that might appease God (assuming that God exists, of course). Moreover, I've been attending Mass for the last month now, and plan to continue do so in the near future. I was once disillusioned with religion, but I'll try again.

I am still an agnostic Marxist-Leninist who still retains her revolutionary political convictions and fervor, though, and my agnosticism, which is based on materialism, hasn't been defeated yet. Until a month ago, I was cold, like a Bose-Einstein condensate, towards organized religion, but now, I might be like liquid nitrogen.

If you anyone wants to call me "delusional" praying, go ahead.

[Jimmie Higgins]

There's a political way of looking at morals: what purpose do they serve.

Protestant ethics, Victorian morals, American Values all serve a purpose and they help people cope with and/or adopt practices and attitudes that benefit the system. Often they are idealist patches over irreconcilable tensions of the system.

So while I reject the idea of abstract morals, I actually agree with many of the things listed in the OP:




show mercy and do not judge or callously disregard the economically dispossessed and disenfranchised, as their condition is caused by systemic injustice, not their personal flaws
do not hold the material interests of the economically disenfranchised in contempt; in the spirit of economic egalitarianism, their economic interests are as important as yours
assiduously educate myself in political philosophy, history, and economics
admonish my ideological friends for misconceived thoughts and ignorance while also being receptive to similar criticism
foment and maintain hope for a future revolution, even while succumbing to short-term defeatism
respect, act deferentially, and exhibit humility to the knowledgeable and virtuous (the virtues are enumerated herein)
venerate those who sacrificed and endured adversity for the sake of advancing the revolution;
and live a modest and frugal life, pursuing contentment and satisfaction, not profligate indulgence or luxury, since that would impede with the cultivation of important political talents and virtues.



But I think the reason some of these make sense are due to political, not moral reasons.

Don't blame the poor? Yes, well that comes out of a political understanding of the nature of the system.

Learn about history and politics? Yes, this helps arm us to understand the world in hopes of being able to choose the effective ways to attempt to change things.

Be understanding to people who share some of your goals but may disagree with you on certain things? Yes, for the most part if you want to convince people you are correct as well as trying to correctly identify the next steps, it's best to be open to other arguments while also trying to win people to your perspective when you think you are correct. Being an asshole or overly dogmatic goes counter to these goals.

[black magick hustla]

i dont care about being a "good communist". i care about feeling like a human being, something that is hard in this days. that is the only "communism" that matters to me

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

"Morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose." - Friedrich Nietzsche

[black magick hustla]

the adventures of black rose (http://www.againstsleepandnightmare.net/ASAN6/Militant.pdf)

[Rafiq]

Black magik that was a pretty shallow link. Do you even know where that's from?

[Black_Rose]

the adventures of black rose (http://www.againstsleepandnightmare.net/ASAN6/Militant.pdf)
Could you show me that in a post I made in this forum that I advocate cultivating guilt?

I think I made like two posts that says having some guilt is a good thing, but I never said that it should consume them?

I remember saying this:


Huh? Many (US) workers are reactionary "nationalists" that support imperialist intervention, inferior status for minority groups, and tend to blame the poor for alleged personal defects instead of the system. The behavior of the workers perpetuate an immoral system, and they should have some guilt about it, although they were instilled with those backward values as children by their parents, media, and popular culture.

...

False consciousness resulting from bourgeois ideology. Only an idealist would blame workers for that.Yes, you are indeed correct that. These reactionary views emanate from bourgeois values, and realizing this, I don't blame workers, but I want some of them to be earnestly penitent for harboring reactionary sentiment.
http://www.revleft.com/vb/revolutionary-lefts-perspective-t164944/index.html
In that entry, "regret" is probably a better word than "guilt" as "guilt" implies a sense of culpability and responsibility.

-----

Sympathy is more productive than guilt...
Knowledge is more productive than guilt...

In this thread, have I actually advocated cultivating a sense of guilt, especially self-immolating guilt?

[Black_Rose]

You might to read Philip Berrigan's Prison Journals of a Priest Revolutionary. He and his brother got thrown in jail for throwing blood on a draft office's records and notices.

Given that socialism isn't on the immediate agenda, it is primarily an ethical/moral position as "scientific" as some here make out.

I know the inherent allure and respectable of "science", since science is synonymous with intellectual prowess, knowledge, and technology; in contrast, morals are often associated with religion (whose epistemology is based on divine revelation which is contradictory to the empiricist and rationalist epistemology integral to scientific endeavors), submission to authority, and prohibitions on behavior. Thus, "morals" are generally not appealing to youth, who general want to rebel against the system and want to maximize personal freedom, usually by limiting or abolishing the power of repressive authority.

Yes, socialism is a normative political philosophy: it offers a prescription for an alternative political economy that is preferable to capitalism.
----

" So while I reject the idea of abstract morals, I actually agree with many of the things listed in the OP."I do not know what school of ethics that I subscribe to ultimately, perhaps it is preference or negative utilitarianism: the former states that "utility" is best maximized by satisfying the preferences and interests of sentient beings, and the latter states the it is a moral imperative to reduce suffering as opposed to maximizing utility. Certainly, as revolutionary leftists, we can agree that contemporary neoliberal capitalism fails to maximize the preferences of most humans, whether in local, regional, or national domain, or globally, and that it causes unnecessary suffering for most of the world's inhabitants. Of course, some argue against revolutionary leftist using utilitarian arguments by attempting to present arguments that neoliberalism maximize welfare, usually invoking the inscrutable mathematics and sophistry of neoclassical economics. Also, some believe that the suffering, sacrifice, and struggle that a successful revolution entails (or its low chance of success) indicate that reformism is a better path. Revolutionary leftism is not a necessary conclusion of utilitarian ethics, given utilitarianism's empirical and evidential nature where one can reach different conclusions because there are multiple interpretations and perspectives that can influence one's analysis of information. Thus, revolutionary leftism can be considered to be a branch of utilitarianism, since the prescription for a revolution (based on its perceived desirability and feasibility) is just one interpretation of the information from the fields of economics, history, and politics.

In my last few posts, I've put a premium on mercy and sympathy. Since utilitarianism requires taking into consideration the interests of others, a meta-ethical foundation of utilitarianism is sympathy, since one must be able to comprehend and value the interests of others, often above their own self-interest.
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BTW, for anyone who suggests that the enumerated items in the OP leads to self-immolation, I explicitly stated that "The virtues are listed in order of importance" with material self-abnegation taking on the least importance, because I realize that erudition and mercy are more important to cultivate. In fact, I acknowledged that material modesty is subservient to other values, and it was primarily recommended to discourage the pursuit of profligacy and extravagance does not distract one from education and mercy. Indeed, Calvinists do value material self-denial, but they lack mercy and sympathy for other sinners, because its theology states the unfortunate are worthy of damnation due to their depraved nature and are not among the elect that can receive God "irresistible grace" .

[Polyphonic Foxes]

There is nothing even slightly wrong with believing in such noble things, don't let anyone tell you you're wrong, and don't say it's wrong to be idealistic, because cynicism is stagnation and misantropy.

[Xylophage]

As revolutionary socialists we tend to shy away from moralism

This is mistaken and harmful thinking. This plays right into the hands of the class enemy. We do not reject morality, but only the corrupt morality of the bourgeoisie, against which we present our own communist morality. As Lenin taught, communist morality is subordinated to the interests of the class struggle.