How do I argue against someone who opposes "illegal immigration?"

[Drosophila]

I often find myself getting into arguments with people who advocate militarizing the border with Mexico and/or deporting illegal immigrants. How do I argue against this? I usually find myself at a loss for words.

[Princess Luna]

For one point out the effects tighter immigration control has had in Alabama. Most anti-immigration activists argue, that undocumented workers take away jobs from Americans, yet many industries in Alabama are suffering from a severe work shortage ever since Alabama tightened immigration laws.

http://blog.al.com/live/2011/10/many_southwest_alabama_industr.html

[Decolonize The Left]

I often find myself getting into arguments with people who advocate militarizing the border with Mexico and/or deporting illegal immigrants. How do I argue against this? I usually find myself at a loss for words.

There are many avenues of argument, so you need to know your opponent first. Most likely, they aren't going to be swayed by 'numbers' or anything that sounds like it could come out of a democratic politicians mouth.

Your best bet is probably to go after the whole idea of 'immigration' as a whole. Since you are most likely dealing with a nationalist, you could appeal to his/her nationalism:
"If you're so opposed to illegal immigration, you sure must have been pissed off when the British immigrated here in the first place. Or even worse, when Italians/Irish/Spanish/Germans/etc... immigrated here afterwards. Fucking illegals crossing oceans to come here... jeez..."

Try and destroy the notion of "borders" as anything other than arbitrary lines in the sand. Go deep into the fact that what this person is really upset about probably has to do with jobs, or some abstract notion of right and wrong, and if this is the case, then it has nothing to do with immigration at all.

- August

[danyboy27]

Well, you could argue that expelling immigrants is extremely costly, and that if we would allow them to legally reside in your ''homeland''(good word to appeal to a nationalist) they could pay taxes and not be forced to do black market/illegal activitiy to live by.

[Invader Zim]

There isn't any point. If they were willing to consider the issue rationaly they would never have come to that conclusion in the first place.

[danyboy27]

There isn't any point. If they were willing to consider the issue rationaly they would never have come to that conclusion in the first place.

It will most likely not work, but if nobody try to have some kind of discussion with these people it will never work.

People can change, but it take time and a shitload of peoples.

[workersadvocate]

If the person/people have something to gain from deporting working people and militarizing the Mexican border, than I think we're beyond the debate/argument stage. They are enemies of the international working class, and they want a fight.
What is left to do, but to organize and mobilize a united international working class to come out and kick their asses from sea to shining sea?

Now there are some working people with nothing to gain by dividing and repressing other parts of the international working class, but who have been nonetheless confused and tricked into nativism and chauvinist positions. These I think are the only ones worth tryi.g to argue with, pedagogically but firmly, about our common need for working class internationalist struggle against the 33% and their system. The best way to undo the chauvinistic bullshit is to get them directly engaged in the working peoples' class struggles that most clearly demonstrate the international common class interests of the proletariat. Don't let confused working people who are alienated from much of our class stew in that confusion and resulting sense of separateness apart from the rest of our international working class, and don't write them off without an honest hard but pedagogical struggle to consciously and actively realign with their class.

Stubborn nativist racist chauvinist positions among working people are usually the result of illusions in their own prospects for upward mobility within this system and thus self identification with the "American middle class". Until such illusions are broken, they will believe and behave as if they actually were part of the middle class...just a little embarrassed about being "hurting right now" and forced to do prole work and live in prole neighborhoods for a temporary period. In the past, perhaps their parents or even they once actually were in the middle class...so they cling on while carrying that middle class baggage into the working class, and still look down upon the "less deserving" worse off and more oppressed layers of the working class especially. They need a class struggle reality check!

[seventeethdecember2016]

You can do what I do. Call them Nationalists, and go on a rant saying why everything they believe in will lead to the deaths of many for nothing more than the said person's own individualistic wants.

If you can, try to get that person to admit to something inhumane, and your counterparts will turn on them in a moments notice.
Basically, get them to admit to being a bigot and the Liberals will jump all over them.

In my opinion, there aren't winners in debates. There are only those who get more influence.

[Lobotomy]

What I always found strange about people who are militantly anti-illegal immigration is that they never seem to give a shit about the companies that are actually hiring these workers. they're perfectly content to rant about "those damn Mexicans", but they won't touch the agricultural/service industry companies who are providing the incentive for individuals to immigrate illegally in the first place. It really pisses me off.

perhaps you could come at them from that angle?

[blake 3:17]

Know your stuff!

A really good resource is ColorLines http://colorlines.com/

The most useful part of the site is their Drop the I word campaign. Page is here: http://colorlines.com/drop-the-i-word/ It's ongoing, and provides information and resources, as well as asking people to make the pledge themselves and force public figures and media outlets to do the same.

[KR]

For one point out the effects tighter immigration control has had in Alabama. Most anti-immigration activists argue, that undocumented workers take away jobs from Americans, yet many industries in Alabama are suffering from a severe work shortage ever since Alabama tightened immigration laws.

http://blog.al.com/live/2011/10/many_southwest_alabama_industr.html
Labor shortages are good for the working class, thus as socialists we should support stricter immigration laws under capitalism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Labor shortages are good for the working class, thus as socialists we should support stricter immigration laws under capitalism.No! This is a reactionary position first of all, second of all it is wrong tactically because it would hurt the working class - even the native one.

By that logic, Marxists should have supported the anti-black racists who argues that emancipation would mean that black people could compete with white workers for jobs and drive down wages.

Immigration restrictions in the US are designed to create a second class workforce who do not have the same rights as other workers. Big companies hire contractors who bring in undocumented workers who work in semi-legal conditions and can be threatened with deportation if they cause trouble for their bosses.

Radicals should argue that there should not be one set of laws for capital and another for labor and if capital moves across the border freely, then labor should too. We also need to fight for full rights for anyone who works here. That will help workers feel more confident to fight for better working conditions and will prevent workers from a race to the bottom in wages.

[dodger]

You can do what I do. Call them Nationalists, and go on a rant saying why everything they believe in will lead to the deaths of many for nothing more than the said person's own individualistic wants.

If you can, try to get that person to admit to something inhumane, and your counterparts will turn on them in a moments notice.
Basically, get them to admit to being a bigot and the Liberals will jump all over them.

In my opinion, there aren't winners in debates. There are only those who get more influence.

What happened to respectful debate....the question is honest enough. Over 80% of Britons thought mass immigration was a very serious problem. I imagine illegal immigration would be more so. If the issue is left to fascists or racists with an axe to grind, then we have lost the battle of ideas by default. I think the majority know exactly what they want and need. Let us debate the issues with the class and see exactly who wants and who needs mass immigration or who turns a blind eye to illegals. SCORING POINTS WITH CHEAP DEBATING TRICKS JUST WONT CUT IT FOR ME. Never has, we are not the only game in town. Don't be surprised if others look elsewhere for answers I certainly do not see it in my interests to engage in a race to the bottom competing for wages, nor do others. Especially with those who have no legal right to be here.

k.r. is correct, labour shortages under capitalism is good for workers. As he says Socialists should support effective controls.

It is possible that you don't have a good answer Dan 74, because people have a clearer understanding of the issues.

I do think we need a reality check Workersadvocate, as you call for. That will come out of honest and respectful debate with workers. Putting labels on people is rather pathetic., certainly counter productive. I can't for the life of me see you promoting Internationalism by your stand. I shudder in fact to think what response comes about. Certainly the old,old criticism of communists, 'that they cared for every working class but their own!' springs to mind. Personally I found the best debates I heard were at work and at communist meetings. The London Tube is made up with many, many who were migrants or 2/3rd generation, there was much in the way of 1st hand experience of the issues. The opinion polls were correct 80% were against mass immigration and TOTALLY opposed to illegals. That was my reality check on the subject, I changed my position on the subject accordingly. Sad to see the Tea Baggers making strides, though I saw on youtube the fellow with the hairstyle from hell, dispensing folk wisdom. He called for black and white Americans to unite on this issue. Was it my imagination or did he spit out the word Black? My view is we need to listen more, what actually are people saying?

[brigadista]

would be useful to me if someone could define who they are talking about when they say "illegals"? I see the original question referred to Mexicans

[Jimmie Higgins]

What happened to respectful debate....the question is honest enough. Over 80% of Britons thought mass immigration was a very serious problem. I imagine illegal immigration would be more so. If the issue is left to fascists or racists with an axe to grind, then we have lost the battle of ideas by default. I think the majority know exactly what they want and need. Let us debate the issues with the class and see exactly who wants and who needs mass immigration or who turns a blind eye to illegals. SCORING POINTS WITH CHEAP DEBATING TRICKS JUST WONT CUT IT FOR ME. Never has, we are not the only game in town. Don't be surprised if others look elsewhere for answers I certainly do not see it in my interests to engage in a race to the bottom competing for wages, nor do others. Especially with those who have no legal right to be here.

k.r. is correct, labour shortages under capitalism is good for workers. As he says Socialists should support effective controls.

It is possible that you don't have a good answer Dan 74, because people have a clearer understanding of the issues.

I do think we need a reality check Workersadvocate, as you call for. That will come out of honest and respectful debate with workers. Putting labels on people is rather pathetic., certainly counter productive. I can't for the life of me see you promoting Internationalism by your stand. I shudder in fact to think what response comes about. Certainly the old,old criticism of communists, 'that they cared for every working class but their own!' springs to mind. Personally I found the best debates I heard were at work and at communist meetings. The London Tube is made up with many, many who were migrants or 2/3rd generation, there was much in the way of 1st hand experience of the issues. The opinion polls were correct 80% were against mass immigration and TOTALLY opposed to illegals. That was my reality check on the subject, I changed my position on the subject accordingly. Sad to see the Tea Baggers making strides, though I saw on youtube the fellow with the hairstyle from hell, dispensing folk wisdom. He called for black and white Americans to unite on this issue. Was it my imagination or did he spit out the word Black? My view is we need to listen more, what actually are people saying?

This is not a working class view, this is a ruling class view which apparently and unfortunately has found some traction with the native-born English population.

I'd add that in the US the support for immigration restrictions swings back and forth quite a bit and depends on how the question is asked and in what context. Anti-immigrant sentiment has dropped here though because of two things 1) movements of people (native and non-native) against these laws 2) Seeing some of these laws actually get implemented. Also in the US, the people who appeal and promote anti-immigrant sentiments are almost ALWAYS supporters of other anti-worker politics so they are really only deflecting blame about the economy onto scapegoats and not really interested in improving the lives of native-born workers let alone immigrants. On the other hand even some of the more conservative unions have been forced to take a stand in favor (to varying degrees) of immigrant rights so it would make no sense for American comrades to try and win over anti-immigrant people anyway, they are already opposed to everything we stand for.

I totally disagree that supporting equal rights for all workers hurts the native-born working class. Instead it makes it harder for companies to semi-legally exploit workers for lower wages and no benefits and rights which then strengthens the entire working class in the US because all workers have the same rules and can fight in united struggles for better conditions rather than competing to the bottom in wages.

And then there's just the hard facts. Immigration to California has DECLINED while jobless rates have INCREASED over the last few years. Basically the housing collapse forced a lot of migrant workers to leave the state - immigration is not as big of a factor in jobs as the economy, if workers are genuinely scared for their employment and wages, we need to show in practice that the answer to to unite and fight the bosses (native and immigrant), not divide and fight over the crumbs the bosses feel fit to toss us.

[Renegade Saint]

You could try pointing out that the very concept of an "illegal immigrant" is a new one. Until... I think it may have been late 1910's, there was no such thing as an "illegal immigrant". You were either and immigrant or a citizen, period.