Atheist student receives horrible insults & threats from Christian Assholes

[Drosophila]

Jessica Ahlquist, a student at Cranston West High School in Rhode Island, filed a lawsuit to have a prayer banner in the public school removed. The Twitter warriors then berated her with horrible insults like "get raped by Satan," "Burn in hell atheist *****" and so on. Here's an article on it:

http://cranston.patch.com/articles/ahlquist-fight-over-mural-despite-harrassment-threats-worth-it

What do you think of this? Personally I think she did the right thing by having the banner removed. It's a public school, it shouldn't be espousing religion anyway, and it's disrespectful towards any non-believers who go there.

[Misanthrope]

Freedom of religion means freedom FROM religion. I wish I had the balls to file a lawsuit. I just put anti-religious ornaments on my school's "holiday" tree.

[Ostrinski]

I had a similar experience a couple years ago (without all the court and all of that shit).

[Zostrianos]

Yeah she's been on the news a lot:
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She's very brave for having done this, but I honestly think she should change schools. They're gonna make her life a living hell after this.

[Ostrinski]

She is brave. I personally wouldn't have pursued the legal route to have it taken down, it doesn't really bother or offend me. But if it did I'd probably just steal it.

[roy]

I have absolutely no idea what a 'prayer banner' is, but why would you want it removed so badly? Is it something offensive to atheists and other non-Christians? :confused:

Anyway, that's besides the point. The abuse this girl's getting is absolutely despicable.

[Susurrus]

Some senator or another described her as an "evil little creature"

[Ostrinski]

Peter Palumbo, lol

Unfortunately, the immediate reaction in Rhode Island has been anything but Christian. Rhode Island State Rep. Peter Palumbo went so far as to call Jessica an “evil little thing” (http://www.630wpro.com/Article.asp?id=2371375&spid=) on WPRO 630 Talk Radio! To me, an elected official who does not understand the U.S. Constitution is the one who is evil.

[R_P_A_S]

why does she want it take it down so badly? Waste of time of time and money. She just wants attention. Unfortunately she will be getting some really really negative attention.

[Ostrinski]

why does she want it take it down so badly? Waste of time of time and money. She just wants attention. Unfortunately she will be getting some really really negative attention.I kind of agree tbh. I don't see how it could have been offensive to an atheist unless it said "atheists should be fucking shot" or something like that. It should be the fanatics getting offended by petty things like this, not freethinking people.

[GPDP]

I'm not gonna say she deserves the treatment she's getting, because no one except the most despicable scum does, but it has to be said: was it worth it?

I personally would've ignored such a thing. Yeah, it would probably have irked me, but I'd rather not incur the wrath of religious fanatics. I suppose one could call her brave, but her life's gonna be a living hell for doing this. And for what? A fucking banner?

IMO, it wasn't worth it, even if technically she did the right thing.

[Veovis]

I kind of agree tbh. I don't see how it could have been offensive to an atheist unless it said "atheists should be fucking shot" or something like that. It should be the fanatics getting offended by petty things like this, not freethinking people.

Public school is not the place for religious practice. If students want to pray quietly, privately, and unostentatiously (like Jesus says - Matthew 6:5) while at school, there's nothing stopping them. If they want religious fellowship, that's what church is for. I honestly don't understand certain religious people's impulse to bring church with them wherever they go. It's not like I go around announcing how gods don't exist.

Public school should be reserved for the study of things that are real.

[Ostrinski]

Public school is not the place for religious practice. If students want to pray quietly, privately, and unostentatiously (like Jesus says - Matthew 6:5) while at school, there's nothing stopping them. If they want religious fellowship, that's what church is for. I honestly don't understand certain religious people's impulse to bring church with them wherever they go. It's not like I go around announcing how gods don't exist.

Public school should be reserved for the study of things that are real.I agree 100%, but I mean, as atheists, what skin is it off our backs that some text that has no relevance in relation to our lives sits miserably and obscurely on a wall? No doubt she did the right thing but damn. That energy could have found a better use.

[Tim Cornelis]

I would have spent my time and resources doing something actually useful. Removing a prayer banned would be low (or last) on my priority list. It's a prayer banner, it doesn't bother you, why ruin it for everyone else?

Don't mean she deserves this though.

[Revolution starts with U]

Glad to see there's a lot of backbone in this thread :rolleyes:

[GPDP]

Glad to see there's a lot of backbone in this thread :rolleyes:

All we're saying is, this was a fairly pointless battle to pick. Even if she was in the right, she made herself into a pariah. Unless it was a blatantly offensive banner, I don't see how it was worth it, or why calls to exercise restraint in confronting religious propaganda in school should be taken as cowardly.

[dodger]

Jessica Ahlquist, a student at Cranston West High School in Rhode Island, filed a lawsuit to have a prayer banner in the public school removed. The Twitter warriors then berated her with horrible insults like "get raped by Satan," "Burn in hell atheist *****" and so on. Here's an article on it:

http://cranston.patch.com/articles/ahlquist-fight-over-mural-despite-harrassment-threats-worth-it

What do you think of this? Personally I think she did the right thing by having the banner removed. It's a public school, it shouldn't be espousing religion anyway, and it's disrespectful towards any non-believers who go there.

My hat goes off to Jessica, lets hope she finds better friends than some who have posted here. She may yet roast in hell, how doubly unfortunate to have any Revlefters ACTUALLY STOKING THE RED HOT COALS.

More power to her, a principled and timely stand is always worthy of our complete support and respect. Facebook mullahs or twitter bigots wont have a snowball's chance in hell of forcing their views while there is even one Jessica prepared to act. Is solidarity becoming a dirty word around here?

[Ostrinski]

Is solidarity becoming a dirty word around here?Do I need to thrust my fist to the sky and scream "solidarity" at the top of my lungs to show my support for a friend working on a science project? Maybe we don't just throw the word around.

[Zostrianos]

Ultimately you could see it as just a banner on the wall, but the apparent intention behind it is that the school is Christian, when in reality it is a secular public school, and the banner has a discriminatory taint to it. Sure they're probably not shoving it down the student's throats (it's not in the Bible belt) but just think how atheist\Jewish\Muslim\Buddhist\Hindu\Pagan or other students feel when they look at that banner? I think she did the right thing in standing up for the rights of atheist and religious minority students, but I think she should have done so anonymously and let the courts handle it from there.

[Ostrinski]

but just think how atheist\Jewish\Muslim\Buddhist\Hindu\Pagan or other students feel when they look at that banner?http://www.ballsgohere.com/uploads/a79531b994.jpg
I think this sums it up.

[dodger]

Do I need to thrust my fist to the sky and scream "solidarity" at the top of my lungs to show my support for a friend working on a science project? Maybe we don't just throw the word around.

Indeed Brospierre, we either give it(solidarity) or we don't. Simple as....

[00000000000]

As a devout anti-theist, I can't help but support her actions and feel deep hatred and anger towards the morons that have bravely and anonymously lashed out at her via twitter and such.
But at the same time, I can't help thinking that her legal action was a bit over-kill and she had to expect this kind of reaction (Seperate church and state? The US has 'In God We Trust' printed on the money and every candidate closes with God Bless America)

Hmm..oddly comfortable on the fence, must try not to get too comfy.

[workersadvocate]

Scratch a Christian "true believer" in the West, and you'll find a zealous would-be witchburner and fascist holocault cheerleader underneath.

They want Armaggeddon. I pray that the international working class giveves them their End of Days, good and hard. Don't make us bring back the lions.

[dodger]

As a devout anti-theist, I can't help but support her actions and feel deep hatred and anger towards the morons that have bravely and anonymously lashed out at her via twitter and such.
But at the same time, I can't help thinking that her legal action was a bit over-kill and she had to expect this kind of reaction (Seperate church and state? The US has 'In God We Trust' printed on the money and every candidate closes with God Bless America)

Hmm..oddly comfortable on the fence, must try not to get too comfy.

Sounds like torture, but we have a bamboo fence. As they say in my parts, "I see what you are saying." LeftRDead. The fact is she has done it, the poo has hit the fan. Wiser counsel might have prevailed, more than one way to skin a cat. True. She done it and good luck to her, let's hope where she has trod others might follow. We can learn and all go forward together. At least that is my hope.

[Revolution starts with U]

God forbid someone actually try to shake up the status quo, the "revolutionaries" will come out of the wood work and question "was it worth it."

That's right. Hide your face and accept the world, in the name of the Revolution. It's just going to happen, with no involvement of actual people... right? That's the message I am getting in numerous threads today. We'll start the Revolution by playing more Call of Duty, not by actually going out and taking the fight to the powers that be. :rolleyes:

[Rafiq]

Some asshole came to my public school to preach morals, and, according to him (from his book) athiests aren't as worthy as christians.

Trouble was, was that we ALL had to watch him, regardless of our consent.

[#FF0000]

as a troll i would've done the exact same thing so good on her she's done well

[Ostrinski]

We'll start the Revolution by going on revleft more, not by actually going out and taking the fight to the powers that be. :rolleyes:Fixed.

[ВАЛТЕР]

I agree that a public school is no place for religious things such as this "prayer banner" (whatever the fuck that is, I am assuming it is a banner with a prayer on it.), however I believe the battle she picked was a foolish one since the reactionaries will spin this to make it look like Atheists hate Christianity and want to destroy other people's beliefs etc etc.

Good on her for standing up for what is right. However, even though I believe this is a battle that she will legally win, she will in the end lose it in the eyes of society. The media will do its damage and this poor girl will end up suffering because of it.

[Zostrianos]

I agree that a public school is no place for religious things such as this "prayer banner" (whatever the fuck that is, I am assuming it is a banner with a prayer on it.), however I believe the battle she picked was a foolish one since the reactionaries will spin this to make it look like Atheists hate Christianity and want to destroy other people's beliefs etc etc.


And that they're persecuting them for their beliefs...:rolleyes:

[Franz Fanonipants]

atheist fucking activism is the most stupid shit its on par with believing that (red) merchandise can end poverty in africa and etc

if you guys are upset about this you might as well just go over to thinkprogress or something

[#FF0000]

atheist fucking activism is the most stupid shit its on par with believing that (red) merchandise can end poverty in africa and etc

.

[Drosophila]

It's a public school that's meant to be open to everyone - religious or non-religious. Having a "school prayer" could make some feel uncomfortable, maybe even left out. The school was stupid for having this up there, and got what they deserved.

[Misanthrope]

All we're saying is, this was a fairly pointless battle to pick. Even if she was in the right, she made herself into a pariah. Unless it was a blatantly offensive banner, I don't see how it was worth it, or why calls to exercise restraint in confronting religious propaganda in school should be taken as cowardly.

Everyone has different morals, she just seems to have stronger ones than you..


Public schools bully the students into so much petty shit. It's time schools get a taste of their own medicine. The whole nationalist-esque love for one's school and tradition is harmful thinking. She took a huge step in fighting this. Students should not be subjected to Christian propaganda because it's "tradition" or helps their sports team or whatever. School is for learning, not prayer, sports tradition or any other dangerous group thinking.


atheist fucking activism is the most stupid shit its on par with believing that (red) merchandise can end poverty in africa and etc

if you guys are upset about this you might as well just go over to thinkprogress or something

Do you ever make a post that isn't ridden with swears and isn't plain insulting?

[Misanthrope]

Some asshole came to my public school to preach morals, and, according to him (from his book) athiests aren't as worthy as christians.

Trouble was, was that we ALL had to watch him, regardless of our consent.

Another example of the stupid shit public schools enforce (familiarize yourself with truancy laws). This is not free speech, it's forced religious indoctrination in a public setting, which is illegal. You shouldn't be forced to put up with that and you should not be discouraged by the "leftists" on this board of being a petty moralist.

religion gtfo public schooling

[Franz Fanonipants]

It's a public school that's meant to be open to everyone - religious or non-religious. Having a "school prayer" could make some feel uncomfortable, maybe even left out. The school was stupid for having this up there, and got what they deserved.

well yes you see rights and

[Franz Fanonipants]

religion gtfo public schooling

yes comrade this is a real issue not the reality of proletarian education

[NGNM85]

Good for her. I suspect the banner will, eventually, begrudgingly, be removed. It's clearly a violation of the Establishment Clause. (In addition to being generally bogus.) However; unfortunately, I suspect this girl will have to suffer harassment for quite some time.

[Fawkes]

why does she want it take it down so badly? Waste of time of time and money. She just wants attention. Unfortunately she will be getting some really really negative attention.

Probably cause some of us don't want to look at stupid religious symbols that represent centuries of murder, oppression, and reaction against progress.

[Leftsolidarity]

I like our batch of revolutionary leftists who are shitting all over the work this person has done. "Was it actually worth it?" Of course it's fucking worth it. Is it worth not allowing religious nuts to shove their religion down children's throat at a public school? FUCK YES IT IS! Holy fucking shit people. Then you retort that it makes athiests look bad. No, it makes atheists look like they are trying to seperate church and state. Yes, the church won't like that. THEY ARE THE FUCKING CHURCH! Religious fundies are always going to get up in arms about anything pushing back their influence. You be-little the efforts made by someone to push back religion in our schools just because you don't want to ruffle the feathers of religious fundies who view it as their oppression when they don't get to shove their beliefs down people's throat. You should feel ashamed.

[Revolution starts with U]

To be fair they are largely the same people who are saying "go ahead and be a mortgage officer, you can't escape capitalism" in other threads.

I said "to be fair," not "to make them look better." :D

[Yuppie Grinder]

The mindset that people can be liberated at all through legal, civil discourse should be strongly discouraged, because it is a load of shit. While I empathize with the girl, I don't think this accomplished anything.

[workersadvocate]

Is an exclusively Christian or Judeo-Christian group in American public education institutions any better then having a Klan kids group sanctioned by public schools?

While the focus of the former may be on religion instead of race, in practice it is about dividing, socially ostracizing, repressing and terrorizing minorities.
When I was a teen, I belonged to a Christian high school group. On the surface, it would appear to be just a huge teen social club. But eventually, they started trying yt
o recruit kids for anti-abortion activism...the kind that manifested during the 90s with groups like Operation Rescue. And yes, it definitely created a hostile environment imposed on anyone who wasn't down with this Christian group.
Notice the similar inducting process occurs within the racist skinhead scene, with the sole exception that Christian groups get at least implicit approval to operate by public school officials. Well, also, skinhead groups rarely become the most popular clique in public schools to the point that not belonging to them socially penalizes you.

I think when they rear their heads as a Christian group in public schools, treat them just like the KKK showed up to set up shop there. Be merciless to any school officials or faculty thatt would sanction, sponser or condone that group in any way whether formally or informally. They are escalating a reactionary culture war and seeking troops in your school. Treat it as war, unite the working class 67% as much as possible, and to metaphorically paraphrase reactionary General Patton, make the other bastards die for their country instead. Don't give them an inch.

[roy]

All this stuff about "spinelessness" is crap.

Yeah, she's being treated horribly, but tackling a totally benign element of religion, however out of place it might be in a public school, accomplishes nothing.

As an atheist, I don't even have the energy to feel ostracised every single time I see a religious symbol on public display. That would be sapping. In fact, I don't really care a great deal.

Seeing something religious in a public space is one thing, having religion shoved down your throat is a whole 'nother thing.

[Revolution starts with U]

Every small step of progression by or for one person, is a giant leap of progression for all people. What would you do? Sit there and let it happen? And then when they start making you pray before class, you will sit there and let it happen? When they start making you take bible study classes...?

When are you going to stand up for your beliefs?

[dodger]

All this stuff about "spinelessness" is crap.

Yeah, she's being treated horribly, but tackling a totally benign element of religion, however out of place it might be in a public school, accomplishes nothing.

As an atheist, I don't even have the energy to feel ostracised every single time I see a religious symbol on public display. That would be sapping. In fact, I don't really care a great deal.

Seeing something religious in a public space is one thing, having religion shoved down your throat is a whole 'nother thing.

Hello Username, just thinking that maybe others don't just see it as personal preferences religious imagery and wot not. It is indeed tedious to take up the cudgels on what seems a small matter. To me, a long way away, it looks like the thin end of a wedge. Keeping religion out of school life is a worthy endeavour, on many levels.Whatever measures are needed or however the fight is taken up, I will support it. I think it important. Having religion shoved down your throat is indeed not very nice. Here my son was examined on 100 christian martyrs before he could pick up his computer techie certificate. Protestant by birth. In an effort to diffuse his frustration and outright anger, I pointed out the majority had been butchered by protestants. His normal good humour quickly returned, though he was righteous in anger, we both declared religion has no place in education establishments. Whatever the pretext or however petty, certainly there are 100,000 'trivial' manifestations here. They don't add up to even one good reason to tolerate their imposition. Small wonder a scoundrel like Sir Francis Drake should beget every honour from a grateful nation for firing chain shot and grape into catholics who wished to impose a foreign doctrine. So Workersadvocate, Jessica et al load the cannon, prime the charge aim and fire, be dammed. There is no doubt where you are all heading. Besides which the last religious symbol I chanced upon was a 15yr old child nailed to a cross, a crown of thorns completed the image. He at least knows where he is going, heaven , if he has not had his anti Tetanus shots.

[Franz Fanonipants]

To be fair they are largely the same people who are saying "go ahead and be a mortgage officer, you can't escape capitalism" in other threads.

I said "to be fair," not "to make them look better." :D

lifestylist scumbag

[roy]

Every small step of progression by or for one person, is a giant leap of progression for all people. What would you do? Sit there and let it happen? And then when they start making you pray before class, you will sit there and let it happen? When they start making you take bible study classes...?

When are you going to stand up for your beliefs?

Would I sit there and let a prayer banner be in my public school? Um... yeah. In passing, I might think, "hey look a prayer banner this is a public school lol", but since it's not actually causing me any harm, I'm not going to take up frivolous legal action against it.

Just because there's a prayer banner one day, doesn't mean they're gonna have you on your knees before the Almighty the next. As much as they'd like to, I'm not gonna let it happen. When the religious start telling me that they are right and I am wrong, that I must participate in their faith, I object ferociously.

So no, I would object if they started enforcing prayer in public schools. I don't know what makes you think I wouldn't... Oh right, I'm not taking up arms against the evil banner! You get offended when you see a nativity display in public? I'm for secularism, not the removal of every single religious symbol from the public eye. I just don't care. It's a case-by-case thing; they're often harmless.

Enough with the hair-trigger sensitivity and whining about 'ostracism' because you saw the word 'God'. Some elements of religion are malignant, some are benign. Let's learn to see when the threshold has been crossed.

PS: I've taken Bible Study, or as I call it BS. Excellent chance for debate.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

Id be like(And this is what I do in real life) "it will be fun, want to come with me?" or "the alcohol burns really good down their"

[Franz Fanonipants]

PS: I've taken Bible Study, or as I call it BS. Excellent chance for debate.

crashing an evangelical bible study is some funny but obnoxious shit

[Misanthrope]

All this stuff about "spinelessness" is crap.

Yeah, she's being treated horribly, but tackling a totally benign element of religion, however out of place it might be in a public school, accomplishes nothing.

As an atheist, I don't even have the energy to feel ostracised every single time I see a religious symbol on public display. That would be sapping. In fact, I don't really care a great deal.

Seeing something religious in a public space is one thing, having religion shoved down your throat is a whole 'nother thing.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you don't care then why do you insist on discussing it on the internet? If it accomplishes nothing then why do you feel the need it insistently point out that it "accomplishes nothing?"

There's nothing wrong with exercising your "rights."

[RGacky3]

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

What else would you do with a cake?

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

What else would you do with a cake?

shoot it. it is possessed by Satan

[Revolution starts with U]

lifestylist scumbag

Just once I wouild like to see you add something worthwhile to the discussion :rolleyes:

[Wizard]

Seems a lot of people didn't notice the fact that this is going to cost the school district millions of dollars in legal fees at a time when the federal government is slashing assistance to cities and education budgets and so on.

[Drosophila]

Seems a lot of people didn't notice the fact that this is going to cost the school district millions of dollars in legal fees at a time when the federal government is slashing assistance to cities and education budgets and so on.

Huh? To my knowledge the school wasn't involved in the legal battle at all. The judge ordered it be taken down, and the school hasn't taken any legal action yet.

[roy]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you don't care then why do you insist on discussing it on the internet? If it accomplishes nothing then why do you feel the need it insistently point out that it "accomplishes nothing?"

There's nothing wrong with exercising your "rights."

You're absolutely correct. There is nothing wrong with exercising my rights, which is what I'm doing now. I saw some posts with which I disagreed, accusing anyone who saw this whole thing as frivolous legal action as 'spineless', and I responded. You disagree with me, and now you're responding. That's what forums are for. In fact, that's what discussion is for in general.

[Klaatu]

The student was correct in getting the religious banner removed. These things must be nipped in the bud, or else they tend to get out of hand.

[Prometeo liberado]

why does she want it take it down so badly? Waste of time of time and money. She just wants attention. Unfortunately she will be getting some really really negative attention.

If we let the small, very winnable though no less important, issues go then why even get out of bed to fight the larger battles?

[Comrade Jandar]

The mindset that people can be liberated at all through legal, civil discourse should be strongly discouraged, because it is a load of shit. While I empathize with the girl, I don't think this accomplished anything.

Exactly what I was going to say. I tend to put the whole militant atheist movement in the same category as animal rights and enviornmentalism; boutique-liberal issues.

[Prometeo liberado]

All this stuff about "spinelessness" is crap.

Yeah, she's being treated horribly, but tackling a totally benign element of religion, however out of place it might be in a public school, accomplishes nothing.

As an atheist, I don't even have the energy to feel ostracised every single time I see a religious symbol on public display. That would be sapping. In fact, I don't really care a great deal.

Seeing something religious in a public space is one thing, having religion shoved down your throat is a whole 'nother thing.

However benign you may think that hanging propaganda in an atmosphere that is supposed to be a haven for learning is does not take away from the fact that it goes against the very essence of what separation of church and state stands for.
The very fact that a school is there to nurture ideas screams to the fact that this was shoved down her throat. And as a young woman she probably feels the pain more so knowing that the people who felt the need to hoist that nonsense up are the same ones who want to tell her what she can or can't do with her body.

[Comrade Samuel]

Why doesn't this surprise me anymore? Every teacher in my school references Jesus, the bible ect. On a daily basis and dispite it being a public school and I'm an atheist it still doesn't bother me. What's a prayer banner? And furthermore why is it so hard for people accept the term PUBLIC school?

[NineOneFour]

I like our batch of revolutionary leftists who are shitting all over the work this person has done. "Was it actually worth it?" Of course it's fucking worth it. Is it worth not allowing religious nuts to shove their religion down children's throat at a public school? FUCK YES IT IS! Holy fucking shit people. Then you retort that it makes athiests look bad. No, it makes atheists look like they are trying to seperate church and state. Yes, the church won't like that. THEY ARE THE FUCKING CHURCH! Religious fundies are always going to get up in arms about anything pushing back their influence. You be-little the efforts made by someone to push back religion in our schools just because you don't want to ruffle the feathers of religious fundies who view it as their oppression when they don't get to shove their beliefs down people's throat. You should feel ashamed.

Totally agree.

Besides, there is a LOT of overlap between the people who promote religion in the US (particularly the nuts who want to force it into schools) and the people who support arch-conservative ideology, both social and economic.

Anything that can be done to lessen their power and influence is a good thing.

:thumbup1:

[Prometeo liberado]

The mindset that people can be liberated at all through legal, civil discourse should be strongly discouraged, because it is a load of shit. While I empathize with the girl, I don't think this accomplished anything.

The struggle can be viewed as a two front approach. As long as we live in a society that permits a legal means of addressing repressive issues then we will use them. But by no means are we delusional in thinking that these "wins" can not be taken away at any time. By fighting on this front we are able to politicize those who have not yet taken the step from single issues driven protests to seeing the bigger picture of liberation and socialism. Any time someone has finally had enough and stands up for themselves it is an act of rebellion. And as we all know Rebellion is Right!:thumbup1:

[Goblin]

Prayer banner in a public school? Is that normal in America?

[Franz Fanonipants]

Prayer banner in a public school? Is that normal in America?

yes

e: wait no it isn't

[Zostrianos]

Things are starting to get pretty heated, with more and more death threats from fundies, but at the same time some support from secularists and the educated:
Zu6pZpm6Y-Q

[Balaer]

The only religious part of the banner was 'Our heavenly father' and 'Amen'. They could have just removed those two parts, if necessary.

Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Amen
That being said, I don't approve of the insults and threats.

[Drosophila]

The only religious part of the banner was 'Our heavenly father' and 'Amen'. They could have just removed those two parts, if necessary.

Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Amen
That being said, I don't approve of the insults and threats.

Uhh...no....


Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Amen

[NineOneFour]

Prayer banner in a public school? Is that normal in America?

No, in fact it is illegal. The banner dates from the early 1960s when atheists were even more demonized than we are now.

Points of fact for all in the thread: a different student originally complained about it, so it's not just one student. Also, several parents asked the school board last year to modify it or take it down and the school board told them to go to hell.

If you want to lose what's left of your faith in humanity (or just annoy the bastards), go check out the reactionary scum that are posting on the story about her being bullied on Huffingtonpost.com.

[dodger]

Things are starting to get pretty heated, with more and more death threats from fundies, but at the same time some support from secularists and the educated:
Zu6pZpm6Y-Q

Poimandres clearly you don't know when you are beaten. Just quietly slip out of your clothes grab some fruit from the bowl and climb into the nearest tree.
Await the next spring board jump in evolution.

WITHOUT DARWIN, the Galapagos Islands would not be such a tourist magnet. But now, we hear, the manager of a resort on the Galapagos has told a guide not to bring up the topic of evolution, because of complaints, mainly from Americans convinced that Darwin is the devil.

The guide was told that if asked about evolution, he could have a drink with the passenger in the evening and discuss it privately. The passengers should just be told what they wanted to hear. The guide subsequently resigned.

And American tourists in London have also started to complain or hiss when guides mention Darwin while passing the Natural History Museum! Perhaps some of our species are regressing rather than evolving.

[Thirsty Crow]

why does she want it take it down so badly? Waste of time of time and money. She just wants attention. Unfortunately she will be getting some really really negative attention.
Indeed, why do they want to abolish capitalism so badly? Waste of time, money and ultimately risking their physical well being, even their lives. They just want attention, and it's negative attention that they'll get, unfortunately or not.

Seriously, what kind of rubbish is this?? The girl is conscious of her beliefs, or lack of beliefs in this case, and decides to do something about her school environment which in all probability bothers her (and anyone should be bothered by displays such as this one IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS) and what self-described revolutionaries have to say is "she's a little attention-seeker"?

Pathetic, really.

[Revolution starts with U]

Perhaps some of our species are regressing rather than evolving.

No, getting dumber would still be evolution.

[dodger]

No, getting dumber would still be evolution.

If that's the case clearly I/we need a plan'B'. Scrub plan 'A' and back to basics.

There is no inevitability about the course of human progress. As Marx and Engels so pointedly put it to us in the opening chapter of the “Manifesto of the Communist Party” just over 160 years ago: “The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles.”

“Freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, lord and serf, guild master and journeyman, in a word, oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to one another, carried on an uninterrupted, now hidden, now open fight, a fight that each time ended, either in a revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or in the common ruin of the contending classes.”

[Blackburn]

LOL @ the outraged hardcore Revolutionaries in this thread because we all didn't jump to attention and applaud this attention seeking teen.

Last I checked actions like this lawsuit, and trying to get everyone to be constitutional were 'reformist'.

So yes, please berate us all about how extra revolutionary you are, by supporting the American Constitution and reformist law suits.

[Thirsty Crow]

LOL @ the outraged hardcore Revolutionaries in this thread because we all didn't jump to attention and applaud this attention seeking teen.

Last I checked actions like this lawsuit, and trying to get everyone to be constitutional were 'reformist'.

So yes, please berate us all about how extra revolutionary you are, by supporting the American Constitution and reformist law suits.
Yeah, only industrial workers ready to go wildcat deserve attention here. I guess that's it, you've blown my cover, I must be a reformist then.

I wonder, would such a case receive a more favourable response from this bunch of idiots were it: a) college b) a guy, not a girl.

But seriously now, go fuck yourself.

[Blackburn]

But seriously now, go fuck yourself.

Only if you give me a kiss.

[Thirsty Crow]

Only if you give me a kiss.
:blushing::blushing::wub: :tt1::tt2:

I'm sorry for that (it's been a pain in the ass of a day til now).
But I don't know why it's so hard to realize that the American evangelical right plays a role in class struggle, and that comabatting religious ideology should also be considered part of the strategy of the revolutionary left, which mandates something other than "teen seeking attention" line.

[The Stalinator]

I don't see how what she did was attention seeking at all -- I'd be rightfully pissed off if there was a big fucking prayer banner greeting me when I walk into school every day. I want to go to school knowing that I'm in a secular environment where my classes are not biased towards any particular faith, and where the staff will support me if I'm ever ostracized for my beliefs.

Taking down the banner was a small step in taking down religious indoctrination of the students. It might seem insignificant to some, but imagine how much more secure the non-Christian students must feel now that they aren't forced to look at a Christian prayer banner every morning.

[Revolution starts with U]

Isn't that what radicals do, is "seek attention" from the populace, to highlight and destroy the ruling actions and ideas of the day?

[Elysian]

Indeed, why do they want to abolish capitalism so badly? Waste of time, money and ultimately risking their physical well being, even their lives. They just want attention, and it's negative attention that they'll get, unfortunately or not.

Seriously, what kind of rubbish is this?? The girl is conscious of her beliefs, or lack of beliefs in this case, and decides to do something about her school environment which in all probability bothers her (and anyone should be bothered by displays such as this one IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS) and what self-described revolutionaries have to say is "she's a little attention-seeker"?

Pathetic, really.

When the house is burning, you redecorate the living room. That's what this girl is doing - focusing on a prayer banner while missing the bigger picture such as the persecution of gay ppl and the like. Now even moderate ones will feel insecure and play into the hands of conservatives.

[Leftsolidarity]

When the house is burning, you redecorate the living room. That's what this girl is doing - focusing on a prayer banner while missing the bigger picture such as the persecution of gay ppl and the like. Now even moderate ones will feel insecure and play into the hands of conservatives.

No.

Do you expect this one girl to lead the fight for LGBT liberation? It would be great but she is doing what she can do. There was a prayer banner at her school and she got it taken down.

You are attacking a smaller gain just because it didn't achieve the end goal in one swipe.

[Decolonize The Left]

When the house is burning, you redecorate the living room. That's what this girl is doing - focusing on a prayer banner while missing the bigger picture such as the persecution of gay ppl and the like. Now even moderate ones will feel insecure and play into the hands of conservatives.

Yeah, UGH what is this girl's problem?!?!?!

Come on girl, focus on the bigger picture and stop trying to change things in your life which don't result in massive socio-economic changes for everyone!! So ignorant, people these days...

Think about the moderates!!!! The moderates!!!!! They are probably super-stressed out right now because this girl had the audacity to stand up for what she felt was right. Poor moderates, I hope they understand that she's just stupid and young and totally doesn't get a historical materialist analysis of global capitalism and its repercussions for the working class. Idiot.

- August

[The Stalinator]

Isn't that what radicals do, is "seek attention" from the populace, to highlight and destroy the ruling actions and ideas of the day?

What people who called her an attention seeker meant is that they believed she wanted to gain attention from people for the sake of her own vanity.

[Drosophila]

When the house is burning, you redecorate the living room. That's what this girl is doing - focusing on a prayer banner while missing the bigger picture such as the persecution of gay ppl and the like. Now even moderate ones will feel insecure and play into the hands of conservatives.

This is such a stupid comment. She doesn't have the power to single-handedly end discrimination against gays. Ending school discrimination against atheists was in her power, so she did that. It's not like this was a 20 year battle.

[Registered User]

If the kids harrasing her were Christians,why were they bullying her?:confused:I thought Christians were supposed to be Christ-like.Anyway,I feel sorry for her being treated the way she was

[Revolution starts with U]

If I save 20 children from a burning building simply because I want people to say "great job! You're such a hero." Does that make any less of a great thing to do?

[Azraella]

I actually support this girl. I don't care if she's an atheist or not, I am a religious minority and my religious rights to be free from Christianity is still important.


When the house is burning, you redecorate the living room. That's what this girl is doing - focusing on a prayer banner while missing the bigger picture such as the persecution of gay ppl and the like. Now even moderate ones will feel insecure and play into the hands of conservatives.

It doesn't matter. I've been fucked with as a radical and as a moderate for being queer as fuck. Why does someone fighting for religious minorities' rights must lead the fight for LGBT liberation? Gods...

[Elysian]

It appears as though people here are dull. Nevertheless ...

It would be wise for a person to fight for something greater, something that would have a great impact on society. And I mentioned lgbt in this connection, that's all. But in her case, it could anything just as important, but removing a prayer banner certainly isn't one of them. It is a waste of time, and it antagonizes a lot of people.

Truth is, everyone needs a hero, an idol, and this girl has become one for those who have nothing better to do with their lives.

[Elysian]

If the kids harrasing her were Christians,why were they bullying her?:confused:I thought Christians were supposed to be Christ-like.Anyway,I feel sorry for her being treated the way she was

American Christianity is more American than Christian.

[Zostrianos]

I actually support this girl. I don't care if she's an atheist or not, I am a religious minority and my religious rights to be free from Christianity is still important.


Exactly. When Christian fundies talk about religious freedom, they mean freedom for themselves, and they want to deny it to others. A good example, which I heard of on one of the Atheist Experience episodes (I don't recall which) they talked about a high school in the South, where a group of Christian parents were putting pressure on the school to allow them to hand out evangelical pamphlets to the students, claiming that freedom of religion was at stake, and they were doing it in the name of all religions. The school finally gave in, and a group of Pagans took advantage of the law to distribute their own literature....
The Christians did not like that...at all. First they had clamoured for freedom of religion, but as soon as another religion came in, they started pissing and moaning, like "how dare the school allow these evil Pagans to corrupt our kids?"

[Balaer]

Uhh...no....


Our Heavenly Father,
Grant us each day the desire to do our best,
To grow mentally and morally as well as physically,
To be kind and helpful to our classmates and teachers,
To be honest with ourselves as well as with others,
Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win,
Teach us the value of true friendship,
Help us always to conduct ourselves so as to bring credit to Cranston High School West.
Amen
That is not necessarily religious. "Our heavenly father" and "Amen" are specifically Christian. The rest is vaguely spiritual, and would even fit in a cult of reason.

[Decolonize The Left]

It appears as though people here are dull. Nevertheless ...

It would be wise for a person to fight for something greater, something that would have a great impact on society. And I mentioned lgbt in this connection, that's all. But in her case, it could anything just as important, but removing a prayer banner certainly isn't one of them. It is a waste of time, and it antagonizes a lot of people.

Truth is, everyone needs a hero, an idol, and this girl has become one for those who have nothing better to do with their lives.

http://playstationeu.i.lithium.com/t5/image/serverpage/image-id/204723i0313C97B2F781578/image-size/original?v=mpbl-1&px=-1

- August

[khlib]

Freedom of religion means freedom FROM religion.

Not in the United States. Here's the difference between American and European secularism (separation of church and state). In the U.S., it was designed to protect religions from the state. In France and other European countries, it was designed to protect the state from religion.

[Drosophila]

It appears as though people here are dull. Nevertheless ...

It would be wise for a person to fight for something greater, something that would have a great impact on society. And I mentioned lgbt in this connection, that's all. But in her case, it could anything just as important, but removing a prayer banner certainly isn't one of them. It is a waste of time, and it antagonizes a lot of people.

Truth is, everyone needs a hero, an idol, and this girl has become one for those who have nothing better to do with their lives.

This is a complete over-generalization. She did something that we, as atheists, agree with, and think should be understood as law.

[NGNM85]

Not in the United States. Here's the difference between American and European secularism (separation of church and state). In the U.S., it was designed to protect religions from the state. In France and other European countries, it was designed to protect the state from religion.

If you read what the founders wrote, for example; Jefferson's famous letter to the Danbury Baptists, it was designed to do both. Actually; the United states is, as far as I know, completely unique in this regard. We've always had an extremely religious populace, but we have a rather uniquely secular government. That's a good thing.

[Franz Fanonipants]

this is a boring thread because basically it is a lot of people who should be restricted for their ridiculous liberalism saying shit

atheism is not a people's struggle

[The Young Pioneer]

When the house is burning, you redecorate the living room. That's what this girl is doing...

Yeah. So hang a hammer and sickle over the mantle for the firefighters to discover in the rubble. :lol:

NGNM85:


If you read what the founders wrote, for example; Jefferson's famous letter to the Danbury Baptists, it was designed to do both. Actually; the United states is, as far as I know, completely unique in this regard. We've always had an extremely religious populace, but we have a rather uniquely secular government. That's a good thing.

Uh, what? Nowhere in the US Constitution or otherwise is there anything about separation of church and state. You're right that Jefferson wrote about it in letters but not in any form of governmental legislation. If I remember correctly, the actual "separation of church and state" phrase was in a letter to a friend in France.

If you think the United States is "uniquely secular" you've been living under a rock. The most "controversial" time wasting debates in American politics involve topics which stem from religious "morals" (i.e. Abortion, homosexuality, etc.)

And how do the US Presidents end every speech?

God bless!!!!!

[khlib]

If you read what the founders wrote, for example; Jefferson's famous letter to the Danbury Baptists, it was designed to do both. Actually; the United states is, as far as I know, completely unique in this regard. We've always had an extremely religious populace, but we have a rather uniquely secular government. That's a good thing.

American secularism is designed to protect religions from the government. This is exemplified by the recent supreme court case in which it recognized a “ministerial exception” to employment discrimination laws, saying that churches and other religious groups must be free to choose and dismiss their leaders without government interference.

[NGNM85]

NGNM85:

Y’know, you could just use the quote feature.


Uh, what? Nowhere in the US Constitution or otherwise is there anything about separation of church and state. You're right that Jefferson wrote about it in letters but not in any form of governmental legislation. If I remember correctly, the actual "separation of church and state" phrase was in a letter to a friend in France.

What’s funny about this is that it’s such a common Right-wing talking point. The specific phrase ‘separation of church and state’ appears in Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists, of Connecticut, which I mentioned. If one reads this letter, and the relevant comments of the Founders, it becomes abundantly clear that the Establishment Clause was designed to guarantee both freedom of religion, as well as freedom from religion.


If you think the United States is "uniquely secular" you've been living under a rock.
The most "controversial" time wasting debates in American politics involve topics which stem from religious "morals" (i.e. Abortion, homosexuality, etc.)

And how do the US Presidents end every speech?

God bless!!!!!

If you omit essential data, then the fault lies with you, not me. Like I said; the United States has a uniquely secular government. That’s true. As far as I know, no other nation in the world specifically guarantees, in it’s Constitution, both freedom of, and freedom from religion. In England, for example, your taxes go to the church, regardless of whether, or not, you are a Muslim, Atheist, Scientologist, etc.

You aren’t making the point you think you are making. Yes, unfortunately, the United States has always had a deeply religious populace, which has had all sorts of unpleasant consequences, going back before the American Revolution. However; the framers of the Constitution were not. The legal battles over gay rights, and abortion are not the product of the state projecting a religious agenda, like the Taliban, or the Ayatollahs, but, rather, fanatically religious segments of society trying to use the state to enforce complience with their religious views. There’s a fundamental difference. The reason why American politicians make showy professions of their faith, other than the fact that at least some of them actually are religious, is that the American people demand it. I think there's maybe one admitted Atheist in congress, I'm certain there's quite a few more, but they'll never admit it, because it's political suicide.

[Drosophila]

this is a boring thread because basically it is a lot of people who should be restricted for their ridiculous liberalism saying shit

atheism is not a people's struggle

Or maybe you should just be banned for posting stupid shit everywhere.

[Revolution starts with U]

this is a boring thread because basically it is a lot of people who should be restricted for their ridiculous liberalism saying shit

atheism is not a people's struggle

Religious freedom is, clown. Or do you forsee some kind of viable Christian Socialist Theocracy, or some such?

[NGNM85]

atheism is not a people's struggle

It is for gays, lesbians, and women. I also fail to see how having a less rational society benefits the working class.

[Leftsolidarity]

this is a boring thread because basically it is a lot of people who should be restricted for their ridiculous liberalism saying shit

atheism is not a people's struggle

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/015/orly.jpg

That's news to me. Also, this isn't about atheism. It's about religious freedom and keeping religion out of public institutions.

[Franz Fanonipants]

It's about religious freedom and keeping religion out of public institutions.

MARXIST GOALS.txt

[Franz Fanonipants]

It is for gays, lesbians, and women. I also fail to see how having a less rational society benefits the working class.

hahaha what

[Leftsolidarity]

Nice troll comments. I know you're a better poster than that so don't try to pass off that bullshit.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Nice troll comments. I know you're a better poster than that so don't try to pass off that bullshit.

sorry bro i just can't burn ulcers over some bullshit liberal activism

[Revolutionair]

sorry bro i just can't burn ulcers over some bullshit liberal activism

you are a liberal troll

[Franz Fanonipants]

you are a liberal troll

i guess i am

[Leftsolidarity]

sorry bro i just can't burn ulcers over some bullshit liberal activism

You could at least show how it's "bullshit liberal activism". If you're not going to do that then at least don't troll.

[bcbm]

i don't know where to start here so i'm just gonna say keep it clean, stop insulting each other and try to make posts with actual content. you have been warned.

http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_full_width/hash/a6/a8/6angry.jpg

[Franz Fanonipants]

You could at least show how it's "bullshit liberal activism". If you're not going to do that then at least don't troll.

this shit has no class interest component in it. therefore it is liberal.

[Leftsolidarity]

this shit has no class interest component in it. therefore it is liberal.

First off, just because something does not have a class component does not automatically make it liberal. It could be many different things.

Secondly, you don't think the struggle against organized religion inside of our eductional system is a class struggle? A school system run by the bourgeoisie instilling their religious institutions into the youth?

Also, do you care to apply that same twisted logic onto LGBTQ struggles, anti-racist struggles, anti-sexist struggles, etc.?

[Franz Fanonipants]

First off, just because something does not have a class component does not automatically make it liberal. It could be many different things.

nope

[Rafiq]

First off, just because something does not have a class component does not automatically make it liberal. It could be many different things.

Secondly, you don't think the struggle against organized religion inside of our eductional system is a class struggle? A school system run by the bourgeoisie instilling their religious institutions into the youth?

Also, do you care to apply that same twisted logic onto LGBTQ struggles, anti-racist struggles, anti-sexist struggles, etc.?

Anti racism, antisexism, are inherently proletarian based movements.

[Leftsolidarity]

Anti racism, antisexism, are inherently proletarian based movements.

And what about the LGBTQ struggle or the struggle against the religious institutions that oppression the people. I probably don't have to point out that those religious institutions are one of the main driving forces behind racism, sexism, and homophobia.

[Rafiq]

:rolleyes: because religious institutions are not like tools of the bourgeois class or anything :rolleyes:

[Thirsty Crow]

this shit has no class interest component in it. therefore it is liberal.
No, of course it doesn't becuase it's been shown clearly that religious institutions are just neutral meeting places for common minded individuals, not at all acting as a bulwark agains those who would radically transform the very basis of social life.

Sure, communists shouldn't mind clerical parasites. And you accuse "white" people for failing to understand certain issues because of a lack of indetification with the problem, all the while assuming that nowhere on this damned earth did the clergy act as a saviour of the capitalist society. Pathetic, really.

[Leftsolidarity]

:rolleyes: because religious institutions are not like tools of the bourgeois class or anything :rolleyes:

We're in agreement here. Or was that directed at Franz?

[bcbm]

'religious institutions' is about as generic a term as you can conjure up and describes such a wide range of groups and institutions with such varying beliefs and agendas as to be essentially meaningless. the quakers are as bad as westboro baptist? the southern christian leadership conference as bad as the church of the creator? that's a pretty shitty analysis.

[Franz Fanonipants]

No, of course it doesn't becuase it's been shown clearly that religious institutions are just neutral meeting places for common minded individuals, not at all acting as a bulwark agains those who would radically transform the very basis of social life.

Sure, communists shouldn't mind clerical parasites. And you accuse "white" people for failing to understand certain issues because of a lack of indetification with the problem, all the while assuming that nowhere on this damned earth did the clergy act as a saviour of the capitalist society. Pathetic, really.

hey guy whats it like fighting the 19th century vatican when the vatican was still relevant is it tough or what

e: are you really worried about excommunication cus here's a secret its sort of not a real state of being

[Thirsty Crow]

hey guy whats it like fighting the 19th century vatican when the vatican was still relevant is it tough or what

e: are you really worried about excommunication cus here's a secret its sort of not a real state of being
Really enlightening. It seems that I'm just a liberal fool when I foam about the role of the Catholic church in shaping people's opinions. It's not that they equate communism with satanism and all the evils of the world, oh hell no, it's not that historically they've supported the fascist regime, no oh no how can I be so liberal.

Descend from the heavenly clouds comrade and face reality with sober sense, tis all I will say.

[Franz Fanonipants]

but yet SOMEHOW there have been and continue to be communist catholics. almost like epistemologies don't need to entirely rule one's memescape or whatever liberal shit you believe in fervently.

[Thirsty Crow]

but yet SOMEHOW there have been and continue to be communist catholics. almost like epistemologies don't need to entirely rule one's memescape or whatever liberal shit you believe in fervently.
And that's it? That's the argument, that there are communist catholics? Well if you're going down that road, I can suggest that for every castholic communist there are a hundred conservative, nationalist, pro-capitlist catholics. For every member of the clergy who supports the struggle of the working class, there are a hundreds of those who would divert it onto the pathetic road of salvation and charity, all the while proselytizing on the evils of immoral class struggle.

Beliefs are one thing, but refusing to acknowledge the idelogical role of the clergy is another. In fact, it's an abandonment of the struggle for communism, maybe not a conscious one, but it definitely has the potential for becoming a real danger for workers' struggle.

I don't think you realize that when the moment comes, the ruling class will harness all available resources for the defense of the bourgeois order. It's ridiculous to pretend that an institution so immersed in conservatism and reaction will not function as one of the bulwarks of capitalist society. That's why I also think openly religious communists are, in fact, a liability of sorts.

[Franz Fanonipants]

i'll remember that around the time of the leftcom purges[1]

footnotes
[1] hahahahahahahahahaha

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The struggle vs religion is not a Leftist struggle, its a struggle for well-heeled bourgeois atheists like Hitchens who sold a ton of books about it. There are Catholic communists now, and I'm sure there will be after "the revolution". However, the struggle vs clerical control over society IS a Leftist struggle. People can be Christian, but using schools to reinforce Christian beliefs is a totally different thing. I have to disagree with Franz about this particular case-she was suing the state for basically endorsing the position of a particular clerical elite or group of clerical elites. I would say the same thing about an Atheist banner at a school for that matter. Public schools are not built to endorse or reinforce particular metaphysical cosmologies but to make rational people able to make their own minds up about those kinds of things.

[Bostana]

Wow what assholes.
Atheists do the same thing too though

[Drosophila]

Wow what assholes.
Atheists do the same thing too though

Atheism is based on reason though.

[Marvin the Marxian]

I'm an American, but I don't care what the Constitution says. What I care about is the principle of religious freedom. This school clearly violated that principle with its prayer banner that 1) clearly supported Christianity over other religions and the lack of religion, and 2) presumed to speak on behalf of all students who went to the school. So I think good on this atheist student for challenging the school.

That said, I think it might've been better if she had simply taken it down herself.

[Thirsty Crow]

i'll remember that around the time of the leftcom purges[1]

footnotes
[1] hahahahahahahahahaha
Oh hey Franz, I've got a more recent example of the wonders clerical shits do for workers' and the impoverished.

Just a brief intro: IMF has gotten its hand on Sri Lanka, where the government imposed vicious austerity policies. Fishermen reacted with demos and the police killed a man. Here's an excerpt:


After the police and the army had prohibited fishermen from protesting in the town on Tuesday, more than 4,000 people gathered yesterday morning at Chilaw-Wella church. They rejected a meagre price subsidy announced by the government on Tuesday and demanded the withdrawal of the price increases.

Catholic priests tried to stop the fishermen from protesting, saying they were in discussions with the government about securing an 80 percent subsidy. Fishermen shouted that all such pledges by the government in the past had proved to be bogus.
http://wsws.org/articles/2012/feb2012/sril-f16.shtml

Friends of the people who'll try to secure the best deal possible, eh?

[Bostana]

Atheism is based on reason though.

No denying it, but I don't think when the American Atheists association threatens lawsuits for the people who put up a Nativity Scene on Christmas is justified

[Marvin the Marxian]

Agree Bostana, as long as the people who do that aren't claiming to speak on behalf of everyone in their community.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Atheism is based on reason though.

no it isn't. no position based in reason is based in negation.


Friends of the people who'll try to secure the best deal possible, eh?

holy shit you mean priests, ostensibly the bourgeois of church structure, are opposed to labor disputes. i am amazed.

anyways don't you think its really interesting that these proletarians decided to organize at a church? or did your leftcom comprehension disorder just gloss over that part?

[Drosophila]

No denying it, but I don't think when the American Atheists association threatens lawsuits for the people who put up a Nativity Scene on Christmas is justified

A lawsuit may be going too far, but putting up a nativity scene is not something that should be done by the township.

[Franz Fanonipants]

A lawsuit may be going too far, but putting up a nativity scene is not something that should be done by the township.

a vital issue in class struggle.txt

[Bostana]

I'm an American, but I don't care what the Constitution says. What I care about is the principle of religious freedom. This school clearly violated that principle with its prayer banner that 1) clearly supported Christianity over other religions and the lack of religion, and 2) presumed to speak on behalf of all students who went to the school. So I think good on this atheist student for challenging the school.

That said, I think it might've been better if she had simply taken it down herself.


There is a difference between forcing a religion on people and encouraging Christians to be more religious.

There is also a difference between taking a stand against Fascist Christians or being a drama queen over a poster that "offends" you.

[Bostana]

A lawsuit may be going too far, but putting up a nativity scene is not something that should be done by the township.

No but when you sue people who put up a "Keep Christ in Christmas" Banner on their house is taking it to far.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Jessica is a very brave young woman and she deserves all our support.As I see it the issue in taking down a prayer banner isn't the "US constitution" or school rules or even atheism versus theism. In this context it is preserving space for non-religious and secular discussion.In the US today, the term "Christian" means Christian fundamentalimt.This means intolerance for sexual minorities, an absolutist world view, intolerance of other cultures and world views. For anyone following the Republican primaries,this mentality is being whipped up by right wing politicians.

For a young high school student, school can be the whole world. There is also a lot of pressure to conform, to be accepted by the cool crowd. So what is someone doesn't want to do a "Tim Tebow" to be accepted?What if a kid feels socially excluded by not being in the after school "prayer groups"? What if someone likes Darwin, is interested in evolution and science? What if someone wants to be able to openly say they are an atheist? What if someone develops an interest in Buddhism or Wicca or some other non-Christian religion?

By taking down the banner and standing up for her rights, Jessica helped preserve a space for secular thinking. She makes it easier for all the other kids who want to be able to express views or lifestyles differing from Xtian fundamentalism.

Christian fundamentalists are showing their true nature. Christianity is supposed to be a relogion of charity and "lovingkindness". Instead the fundis are showing themselves to be adherents of a visciously intolerant cult like mentality.

It is very surprising the revolutionary leftists on this forum aren't more supportive. She is one person who is doing what needs to be done.

[Marquess]

I have to disagree with Franz about this particular case-she was suing the state for basically endorsing the position of a particular clerical elite or group of clerical elites. I would say the same thing about an Atheist banner at a school for that matter. Public schools are not built to endorse or reinforce particular metaphysical cosmologies but to make rational people able to make their own minds up about those kinds of things.

This, this, a thousand times this.

[Zostrianos]

Good news. She's getting a free scholarship:
AZHNIL4kXY4

[Bostana]

Don't you guys think you're over reacting to this.

I mean a prayer banner? Seriously? Where are the Christians right to exercise their freedom of Speech.

How can you not find this hypocritical? It's offending her freedom of speech by the Christian's exercising their's

[Drosophila]

Don't you guys think you're over reacting to this.

I mean a prayer banner? Seriously? Where are the Christians right to exercise their freedom of Speech.

How can you not find this hypocritical? It's offending her freedom of speech by the Christian's exercising their's

No? Atheists and non-believers deserve the same right to feel welcome in a public place as Christians and theists do. The school having an official prayer is something that could make people feel unwelcome.

Also, the Christians don't have the right to make their religion the official one of the state - that's not 'freedom of speech'

[Bostana]

No? Atheists and non-believers deserve the same right to feel welcome in a public place as Christians and theists do. The school having an official prayer is something that could make people feel unwelcome.

Also, the Christians don't have the right to make their religion the official one of the state - that's not 'freedom of speech'

When did I ever mention an official religion of the state? :D

Atheists do have the same rights. Name one time an atheist was denied access to put up a bill board or their own statue

[Leftsolidarity]

Don't you guys think you're over reacting to this.

I mean a prayer banner? Seriously? Where are the Christians right to exercise their freedom of Speech.

How can you not find this hypocritical? It's offending her freedom of speech by the Christian's exercising their's

Do you really call yourself a Marxist-Leninist then go off about their freedom of speech?

This also has nothing to do with that. This is about a public school indorsing Christianity.

[Bostana]

Do you really call yourself a Marxist-Leninist then go off about their freedom of speech?

This also has nothing to do with that. This is about a public school indorsing Christianity.

Listen, I never said it justifies what those "Christian" sudents did but i mean seriously a banner? Does she have a right to ask to take it down? yes, but I think were over reacting

It's great to know you were paying attention

Everybody has a right to freedom of speech. Even Christians.

I'l tell you hat you tell me what exactly is wrong with this banner?
http://o3.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/PATCH/resize/600x450/http://hss-prod.hss.aol.com/hss/storage/patch/a55bd20c32fc6ff9042fd9a33a22ee45

[Veovis]

Listen, I never said it justifies what those "Christian" sudents did but i mean seriously a banner?

It's great to know you were paying attention

Everybody has a right to freedom of speech. Even Christians.

I'l tell you hat you tell me what exactly is wrong with this banner?
http://o3.aolcdn.com/dims-shared/dims3/PATCH/resize/600x450/http://hss-prod.hss.aol.com/hss/storage/patch/a55bd20c32fc6ff9042fd9a33a22ee45


Our Heavenly Father

Presupposes that a god exists and that it is male.

As for the rest, it implies that things like doing one's best and being helpful don't come from within but need to be granted by an outside source.

[Bostana]

Presupposes that a god exists and that it is male.

As for the rest, it implies that things like doing one's best and being helpful don't come from within but need to be granted by an outside source.

Waita read between the lines.

Because they were totally trying to convince everyone God is male

Besides it's just a prayer

[Lenina Rosenweg]

The banner is wrong because its a "school prayer".Its an explicit endorsement of patriarchal theism by the school, as official school policy

In a Marxist view, nothing exists by itself. Take off the "Heavenly Father", the banner is fine, its just another admonition to be a good student and practice fair play. In US schools one can see this all the time.The disturbing thing about the sign is the enormous cultural baggage in the modern US context.

What if a kid believes in a "Heavenly Mother"? what if a kid is trying to develop a moral/ethical system that isn't religiously based? High school is a period when kids form an identity. Kids need space to explore and discuss and honestly struggle with issues.They need a comfortable space to do this.

Christian fundamentalism is a growing ideology. It is visciously intolerant. Kids need to develop the stregnth to resist this, to "just say no" to this particular drug.

[Bostana]

The banner is wrong because its a "school prayer".Its an explicit endorsement of patriarchal theism by the school, as official school policy

In a Marxist view, nothing exists by itself. Take off the "Heavenly Father", the banner is fine, its just another admonition to be a good student and practice fair play. In US schools one can see this all the time.The disturbing thing about the sign is the enormous cultural baggage in the modern US context.

What if a kid believes in a "Heavenly Mother"? what if a kid is trying to develop a moral/ethical system that isn't religiously based? High school is a period when kids form an identity. Kids need space to explore and discuss and honestly struggle with issues.They need a comfortable space to do this.

Christian fundamentalism is a growing ideology. It is visciously intolerant. Kids need to develop the stregnth to resist this, to "just say no" to this particular drug.

I understand what you're saying but I don't see where you guys think they're trying to enforce Christianity.

[Leftsolidarity]

I understand what you're saying but I don't see where you guys think they're trying to enforce Christianity.

lol wut? The whole thing is a prayer banner.

[Bostana]

lol wut? The whole thing is a prayer banner.

Exactly so where do you get off saying they're trying to enforce Christianity?
:D

[Marquess]

lol wut? The whole thing is a prayer banner.

I believe the point Bostana is trying to make is that while it is a "prayer banner", it does not specifically endorse Christianity.

"Our heavenly father" could really refer to a number of "gods".

Allah, Vishnu, Olofi, Zeus...

Take your pick, there's literally thousands to choose from.

[Revolution starts with U]

I'm pretty sure thew "amen" part pretty much sums up which sky wizard they had in mind.

[Bostana]

I'm pretty sure thew "amen" part pretty much sums up which sky wizard they had in mind.

So?
Because people believe in prayer means they're evil?

[Marquess]

I'm pretty sure thew "amen" part pretty much sums up which sky wizard they had in mind.

I was waiting for this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen

If you wanna argue, then I guess it's limiting it to just Abrahamic religons. But even then it's still rather vague. I have to agree with Bostana though, it's not specifically saying Jesus so I don't see why Christians have to be the primary scapegoat in all this.

Blame the school for putting it up and the students for being dicks to her about it, they're the ones to blame after all.

[Decolonize The Left]

1) American schools aren't impartial. US schools only teach the capitalist, imperialist, racist, sexist, and Christian history.

2) Atheism isn't based on negation, it's based on common sense. If I said that this table is not made of fairies, but of wood, you wouldn't say "AHA! That's a statement based upon negation." It's just a common sense statement. Likewise, claiming some ridiculous and totally unprovable shit is fucking stupid. Deal with it.

3) There is no "freedom of religion" or anything as all rights are privileges granted by the state and hence are not universal or inalienable. They are revoked constantly by countless state apparatuses and cannot be used as an argument for legislating a prayer banner in a school.

4) Fuck prayer banners. And get them the fuck out of the public. You can have all the prayer banners you want in your church - all of them. You can have the entire inside of the church made out of prayer banners if you want, no one is stopping you. But don't post that shit in my face and tell me to be cool because 'it's just a prayer banner.'

If 'it's just a prayer banner' then you can take it the fuck down without a fuss can't you?

- August

[Revolution starts with U]

Yes, that is exactly what I said. Your powers of deduction are astounding.

[Revolution starts with U]

I was waiting for this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen

If you wanna argue, then I guess it's limiting it to just Abrahamic religons. But even then it's still rather vague. I have to agree with Bostana though, it's not specifically saying Jesus so I don't see why Christians have to be the primary scapegoat in all this.

Blame the school for putting it up and the students for being dicks to her about it, they're the ones to blame after all.

It doesn't matter if its a hymn to Odin. There's a time and place for that, and its not the middle of the school. At prayer club, philosophy class, comparative religion, fine. Its not cool to subject the entireschool to it.

[Marquess]

It doesn't matter if its a hymn to Odin. There's a time and place for that, and its not the middle of the school. At prayer club, philosophy class, comparative religion, fine. Its not cool to subject the entireschool to it.

No argument here.

I'm just trying to say that since it's really nothing more than a vague "prayer banner" with no explicit ties to Christianity (Christian imagery, passages from the bible, etc.), it's wrong to shove all the blame on them.

[Bostana]

it is just a large piece of paper and some words on it.
Did anyone ever walk up to her and say "You better pray this or else?"
Further more did anyone forbid her of putting up her own banner?

[Drosophila]

Atheists do have the same rights. Name one time an atheist was denied access to put up a bill board or their own statue

That's totally different from the school administration putting a prayer up in the school.

None of this legality should even matter, since religion is a totally backwards concept and shouldn't be encouraged or promoted.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

There are powerful but unofficial social pressure in schools. A prayer bannre makes it that much more difficult for a kid to say "I'm an atheist" or "Tom Paine was an interesting guy" or "the US Founding Fathers weren't all Christians". It can even make expressing an interest in Western philosophy-from Voltaire to Liebniz, Spinoza and Hegel that much more difficult. It can make it difficult for a kid interested in exploring his or her sexuality. What if I'm gay, bi or trans? What should I know about sex?

A religious presence in school, even if semi-official, makes all this so much more difficult for kids.

Its not just the fucking (excuse my language) banner thats an issue, its the space, the social climate its creates.

If Jessica Ahlquist wanted to put up her own banner that said "Allahu Akbar" in Arabic, its certain that in the climate that's being whipped up she'd either be expelled or physically assaulted. The same thing if she wanted to distribute literature from the Ethical Culture Society or Skeptical Inquirer Magazine. She'd be beaten up.

Up until 1962 school prayer was mandatory in most US schools. Not only that but students were required to recite the Lord's Prayer.There was incredible social pressure on kids to conform.Whether it was the Protestant or Catholic version depended on local demographics. Powerful forces want to return to that.

This is in New Hampshire. About 15 years ago there was an event where one Christian fundamentalist family destroyed an interesting experiment in progressive education and almost destroyed the career of a leftist educator. This is the Littky School.
This was highly controversial and its hard to get a straight account of what happened but basically Dr Littkey became principal of a public school in New Hampshire that had big problems. He introduced a student centered learning approach that worked very well. One specific fundamentalist family whipped up a manufactured controversy that destroyed this project.

http://www.bigpicture.org/dennis/


How previously successful principal Littky retired to a cabin in the Appalachian mountains and was persuaded to help revitalize failing Thayer High School, Winchester, N-H. He did well, but not everyone in town was happy; then the drama started. A fascinating account of one man trying to put into practice many of Ted Sizer's progressive ideas (see Horace's Compromise, Horace's School and Horace's Hope) and the resistance he ran into.

I couldn't put it down. Littky decided to take the challenge and try to put his ideas into practice. He was accused by some of using the school and its students as guinea-pigs for his "grand experiment" in psychological manipulation, his grab for power. Many disagreed with his ideas and his vision; some were persuaded, some were not, even after seeing what he had done with the school. People disagreed with what the "evidence" showed, or even what it was!

Susan Kammeraad-Campbell does a great job of taking us behind the scenes and observing how Littky went about convincing both turned-off students and cynical staff members to stay on, tune in and get involved. The task was monumental, and many had failed before him. Did Littky succeed? Many would say he did, but not all would agree.

Littky seems to have a gift for making learning and teaching fun. But it's not all about pedagogy or classroom techniques: it's also about building the right environment, both physically and emotionally. How does one set about practically breaking down the artificial walls erected between school "subjects"? How does one persuade teachers to go along with this plan and actually make it work? How does one set standards that require meaningful learning, and not just measure the amount of hours spent in school? And how does one persuade teachers and parents to support this venture? Well, here's the story of how Littky set about it. It also tells what happened when people disagreed with what he was doing, who disagreed with his "liberal ideas", people both in and out of the school. The story is an excellent reminder of just how much cooperation is required to make a school a success.

Although the book is obviously sympathetic to Littky, Susan Kammeraad-Campbell does try to get into the heads of those who opposed him. However, it seems she was not able to spend as much time with them or persuade them to talk to her to the extent that Littky and his supporters were, and they don't come out of the story very well. Campbell tries to answer the question, can a successful school story like Thayer's sustain itself after Littky leaves? Or is it always a matter of personalities? The afterwords by Campbell and by Littky himself try to answer these questions, but inevitably it seems Littky's personality was a powerful and vital ingredient in the mix.

http://www.amazon.com/Doc-Dennis-Littky-Better-School/dp/1416602283

[Neoprime]

Presupposes that a god exists and that it is male.

As for the rest, it implies that things like doing one's best and being helpful don't come from within but need to be granted by an outside source.

A god can be only male, a goddes can only be female.

[Bostana]

That's totally different from the school administration putting a prayer up in the school.

None of this legality should even matter, since religion is a totally backwards concept and shouldn't be encouraged or promoted.

Name one time a School administration refused to put up an Atheist banner?

[M.Ebow//96:]

Don't hate on me guys, but I am a Christian. She has a right to not want it there, and these people insulting her are clearly idiots; they should take the time to actually consider what they're doing, which goes against even Jesus' principles. :thumbdown: I feel like apologising on behalf of all Christians who aren't total pr*cks: they're (those calling her dumbass names:mad:)probably right-wing baptists anyway :laugh: But at a point, "secular" schools shouldn't ally themselves to any particular belief: religious or not. Impartiality!

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Name one time a School administration refused to put up an Atheist banner?

It doesn't work that way. Its like a kid wearing a "straight pride" t shirt or a sign that says. "Proud to be a white person". In and of itself there's nothing wrong with being straight or "white". Its the overall social context that make this racist or homophobic. Atheism is an official minority Its looked down om by mainstream society.

Allowing a student to put up an atheist banner is not equivalent to allowing a religious banner.Its the social context.

[Bostana]

It doesn't work that way. Its like a kid wearing a "straight pride" t shirt or a sign that says. "Proud to be a white person". In and of itself there's nothing wrong with being straight or "white". Its the overall social context that make this racist or homophobic. Atheism is an official minority Its looked down om by mainstream society.

Allowing a student to put up an atheist banner is not equivalent to allowing a religious banner.Its the social context.

Okay where do you get that from "Grant us each day the desire to do our best......?"

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I get it from the "Dear Heavenly Father" and "Amen" I have no problem with the rest of the banner.I also get it from the fact that Ms Ahlquist, as an atheist, supported by the ACLU and atheist organisations, objected to the banner.Its the motion, the process of her struggle which I support. Its the process of struggle.

[Bostana]

I get it from the "Dear Heavenly Father" and "Amen" I have no problem with the rest of the banner.I also get it from the fact that Ms Ahlquist, as an atheist, supported by the ACLU and atheist organisations, objected to the banner.Its the motion, the process of her struggle which I support. Its the process of struggle.

Those organizations take everything too far. If someone even mentions the word God in a public park they get sued. If a Christian Organization puts up a Nativity scene on a Public Park they get sued. If someone say's merry Christmas they get sued.

Why do they do this? Why don't they just put up their own banner or statue or something you don't have to sue the opposing side. And what struggle is there? Where is the oppression on Atheists I here so much about?

[Marvin the Marxian]

There is a difference between forcing a religion on people and encouraging Christians to be more religious.

Yes there is. But I don't see the prayer banner as simply encouraging Christian students to be more religious. It was purporting to speak on behalf of the entire school.


There is also a difference between taking a stand against Fascist Christians or being a drama queen over a poster that "offends" you.

Nice use of loaded language there. You might as well have said "There is also a difference between doing things that I approve of and doing things that I disapprove of."

Are there bigger fish to fry than this? Certainly. But I don't see why that must mean no one should take a stand where they feel able to.

[Bostana]

Yes there is. But I don't see the prayer banner as simply encouraging Christian students to be more religious. It was purporting to speak on behalf of the entire school.

By praying?





Nice use of loaded language there. You might as well have said "There is also a difference between doing things that I approve of and doing things that I disapprove of."

Are there bigger fish to fry than this? Certainly. But I don't see why that must mean no one should take a stand where they feel able to.

I just think they over reacted a little both the Christians ate the School and the Atheist Girl.

[Zostrianos]

You know a lot of people say that atheists are bullies, and that they're also intolerant, but the fact remains that:

You don't see atheists uttering death threats against religious people, firebombing or vandalizing churches, or endorsing discrimination against religious people. That's the kind of stuff fundamentalist Christians do whenever others demand the same rights. If this girl had been a fundie, and she was trying to push for theocratic reforms in the government, I sincerely doubt secularists and atheists would threaten and insult her the same way those Christians did. You don't hear about atheists persecuting or attacking religious people or vandalizing churches, but you do hear a lot (especially in the Bible belt) of non Christian places of worship attacked or vandalized, and atheists and non Christians regularly ostracized and threatened with violence after coming out publicly.....gee I wonder why?:thumbdown:
You don't hear about Christians in the US being heckled by atheists or non Christians, or having their speeches or services disrupted. But when a non Christian comes in, oh boy....
EZ9To30Hz7A

[Leftsolidarity]

Is this trolling or stupidity?

[Zostrianos]

What?

[Leftsolidarity]

What?

Not to you. I'm referring to Bostana. These arguments are just completely ridiculous, flawed, and stuff I never expected to hear from a supposed revolutionary leftist. This is crap that I hear bigoted tea-baggers throw around.

[Zostrianos]

I don't think he realizes just how serious Christian fundamentalism really is in America.

[Bostana]

Not to you. I'm referring to Bostana. These arguments are just completely ridiculous, flawed, and stuff I never expected to hear from a supposed revolutionary leftist. This is crap that I hear bigoted tea-baggers throw around.

You guys are pathetic.

It's a banner with some words on it . As a Communist your job is to support the oppressed proletariat. Christians are Proletariats too not just Atheists.

I mean what exactly is so evil?
If I put up a banner in school that said God Bless you is that evil too?

[dodger]

JESSICA wanted a secular education. She was prepared to fight for it. Not 1/2 secular. Not 1/4 secular. All intelligent people want a secular education experience for their children. If the law in a country provides for that, then you are truly blessed. Stay vigilant or those pedlars of superstition will try to put the clock back. By any creepy method that comes to hand. Religious observance is in terminal decline a cause for panic here .In 15 yrs all churches will have to close their doors. Make sure they don't try to come in via the back door of schools, youth organizations or the like. They have lost the debate with adults, they must not be allowed to target children. They even target the mentally ill. My brother threw them off the premises with spicey words. They have no shame. Fancy taking money of a mentally ill person , how shameful. They won't be back in a hurry. Let them put up religious propaganda in empty churches where it offends the least number of people. AWAY with all your superstition.

[#FF0000]

You guys are pathetic.

mad?


It's a banner with some words on itexactly so why does everyone care so much to take it down when it shouldn't be there in the first place?


As a Communist your job is to support the oppressed proletariat. Christians are Proletariats too not just Atheists. yup. and there are jewish and muslim proletarians too. that's why it's a good idea to get rid of dumb stuff like this so society is as inclusive as it can be.


I mean what exactly is so evil?
If I put up a banner in school that said God Bless you is that evil too?lol who said anything about evil?

[Decolonize The Left]

You guys are pathetic.

It's a banner with some words on it .

Hmmm... how to explain in simple terms.... I got it!

http://www.collectorsmilitaria.com/img/012511DESTANDARTE/IMG_8552sm.jpg

It's just a banner with words on it right???!!!? What's the big deal??


As a Communist your job is to support the oppressed proletariat. Christians are Proletariats too not just Atheists.

Really? Are you sure?

Because every argument I read here said that Christians fundamentally cannot be proletarians. They just can't because... um... they are.. possessing the means of production through God or something...


I mean what exactly is so evil?
If I put up a banner in school that said God Bless you is that evil too?

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/8/1/d2b78312-2a0b-49e3-b6f6-89882d9f7785.jpg

- August

[Bostana]

Fine you guys are right I give up.

[Marvin the Marxian]

Yes there is. But I don't see the prayer banner as simply encouraging Christian students to be more religious. It was purporting to speak on behalf of the entire school.

By praying?

No, by presenting itself as the school prayer. Not the prayer of the school's Christian students, or of the school's Abrahamic-religious students, or even of the school's religious students.


I just think they over reacted a little both the Christians ate the School and the Atheist Girl.

I don't see the atheist student as overreacting. A prayer banner at a school which is presented as the prayer of the entire school can be a violation of religious freedom, because it can present some students as something they're not. Whether you think it was prudent of her to take legal action against the school is another story. Either way, she in no way deserved the vicious abuse that she received in response.

[Elysian]

The incident has exposed fundamentalists. That's another way of looking at it.

[OnlyCommunistYouKnow]

Good thing my school doesn't care about religion. I doubt people here even know what religion they are. Only what their parents told them to be.

[Zostrianos]

Update: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyzMQmWYPlk&feature=g-u-u&context=G250f200FUAAAAAAAAAA) She just got a handwritten threat letter in her mailbox.

[Positivist]

While the banner probably wouldn't do much more than bother me it is totally reasonable to believe that it offended her in which case her actions are totally justified and the hostile retribution she has received is barbarous!!