The Venus Project

[Prinskaj]

I have been aware of "The Venus Project" for a while now, and haven't been paying much attention to it. But after seeing an interview with their founder, I started to become more interested. Which leads me to asking here, what is your opinions and thoughts about "The Venus Project"?

[Zealot]

It's lame.

We've had threads on this before.

[Red Noob]

I have been aware of "The Venus Project" for a while now, and haven't been paying much attention to it. But after seeing an interview with their founder, I started to become more interested. Which leads me to asking here, what is your opinions and thoughts about "The Venus Project"?

The only appealing aspect of technocracy is the idea that all production will be automated.

Technocrats are big on one thing: Intelligentsia. Not democracy. They believe professionals, or well educated gents should be managing things, not the people.

If you like organizations like the Venus Project or Technocracy or what ever, then you should focus on the class struggle. If we lived in a Communist society where the workers were in charge, we could bring about some of their ideas (the automated production-related ideas, not their pseudo-intellectual intelligentsia ideas).

edit:

Jacque Fresco is a pretty cool guy and has a lot of experience in life, and he's very smart, I'll give him that. But that doesn't mean his utopian vision for the world will come about overnight, or by simply spreading the idea. The Venus Project is a blueprint for a utopia, without a means of bringing it into real life.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Utopian Socialist Technocrat. That's what their leader is.

[Prinskaj]

The only appealing aspect of technocracy is the idea that all production will be automated.


Well they, at least Jacque Fresco, also have many other "leftists" concepts such as, common ownership of resources, the abolishment of money and opposition to the current type of "democracy".

[Red Noob]

Well they, at least Jacque Fresco, also have many other "leftists" concepts such as, common ownership of resources, the abolishment of money and opposition to the current type of "democracy".

True, Jaqcue Fresco's ideas somewhat resembles what a lot of the RevLeft wants. With the exception of demcracy. I think we can all agree we don't live in a democratic society, and we have yet to create a democratic society of self-management. But Jacque Fresco's idea of democracy is a little perverted. I'd suggest looking into how he thinks decision making and managing would go about in the VP.

[Kassad]

The Venus Project is utopian as hell and most of their supporters are indoctrinated to reject all "-isms", which inevitably means the rejection of communism, which is exactly what they are trying to create, in a much more technologically advanced sense. However, it's naive to suggest that scientific research couldn't make things like what Fresco proposes possible, but it's not going to happen in little isolated areas. They suggest creating a "Venus town" to show off how great their technologies are and to get public support, but that doesn't do shit when the capitalists are still in power.

All in all, it's jumping too far ahead while still staying too far behind.

[Prinskaj]

I agree with pretty much everything that has been said up until now. He is a utopian and his ideas of technocratic-management is very undemocratic.
What my interest in the project comes from, is the lack of an ability to illustrate how a post-capitalist society might be structured. Having a basis layout of how such a world would function, would make explaining it, the ideas, that we wish to implement in society,much easier to explain to people, who are foreign to these sorts of concepts, much easier.

[Zealot]

You're right, Comrades let's start drawing houses and create a blueprint for star-trek-style teleportation. That will surely win over the proletariat and sweep away capitalism.

[Red Noob]

I agree with pretty much everything that has been said up until now. He is a utopian and his ideas of technocratic-management is very undemocratic.
What my interest in the project comes from, is the lack of an ability to illustrate how a post-capitalist society might be structured. Having a basis layout of how such a world would function, would make explaining it, the ideas, that we wish to implement in society,much easier to explain to people, who are foreign to these sorts of concepts, much easier.

A communist society where the working class is in charge would enable us to bring in some of these futuristic concepts.

As for planning what it will be like, why would you want to do that? You're getting ahead of yourself. We still have a world to win.

[Rafiq]

The venus project is a bourgeois-idealist organization that has absolutely nothing to do with the emancipation of the proletariat. Instead, it's an opportunistically Utopian dream that is both unrealistic and useless as a whole. The bourgeoisie has no problem with Utopians, actually, they fully support them. The Socialist-Idealists are just anothrr side of a bourgeois coin of perversion, though instead of adhering to the myth that humans are naturally flawed, greedy, etc. They adhere to a greater myth: that humans are naturally altruistic, empathetic, and loving as a species, and this is a basis for which we should structure a society, moving away from the "unnatural perversion" that is capitalism.

I say the opposite, that as a species we should move AWAY from nature, and this...-this disgusting natural "purity".

Humans are nothing more than filthy apes who behave in accordance with material and social conditions. A system which requires greed, breeds the greedy and so on. There is no pure, natural human mode of thinking and behavior. To think so is counterrevolutionary and utopian.

[Red Noob]

Humans are nothing more than filthy apes who behave in accordance with material and social conditions. A system which requires greed, breeds the greedy and so on. There is no pure, natural human mode of thinking and behavior. To think so is counterrevolutionary and utopian.

Don't interpret this as defending the VP, think of it as a fairly representing both views.

Fresco actually believes people are basically blank templates when they are born, and that they are mostly influenced by their environment. I believe he considered himself a mechanist at one point, which from my understanding means he thinks environment and what humans are taught influence how they act, think, and behave 100%.

And in his views, we should create a utopia environment where positive views are harbored.

Still utopia if you ask me, but it's basically what you said.

[Prinskaj]

You're right, Comrades let's start drawing houses and create a blueprint for star-trek-style teleportation. That will surely win over the proletariat and sweep away capitalism.

Thank you for making me realize how stupid my previous statement was.
What i meant was.. That when people ask for a demonstration or explanation to how a non-capitalist society would work, then it would be very nice to have some kind of visualization.

[Rafiq]

Don't interpret this as defending the VP, think of it as a fairly representing both views.

Fresco actually believes people are basically blank templates when they are born, and that they are mostly influenced by their environment. I believe he considered himself a mechanist at one point, which from my understanding means he thinks environment and what humans are taught influence how they act, think, and behave 100%.

And in his views, we should create a utopia environment where positive views are harbored.

Still utopia if you ask me, but it's basically what you said.

Humans are not in a blank state in regards to things like sexual desire, hunger, desperation, etc. But a computer requires energy to operate, too.

[Red Noob]

Thank you for making me realize how stupid my previous statement was.
What i meant was.. That when people ask for a demonstration or explanation to how a non-capitalist society would work, then it would be very nice to have some kind of visualization.

Well no one can really give you an in-depth idea of how things will work and how things will be managed. Most of the changes would be political and economic, more than design and architect. Workers will be in control, meaning direct democracy, local councils making direct decisions to govern themselves, there would be no money. There would be no kings or masters. Other than that, we just got to get there to see.



Humans are not in a blank state in regards to things like sexual desire, hunger, desperation, etc. But a computer requires energy to operate, too.

Right. But say you go 1984 on some kid and constantly fill his head with ideas like 'orgasm is bad', 'peace is war', 'hunger is a good thing', all through out his childhood. It won't make it true, but if you do this all through out his childhood, and do it right, he will be thoroughly convinced about some of the things you say, and it will definitely alter his perception on sex, hunger, ect.

edit:
I guess what I'm trying to get at, is you can't suppress normal human desires and emotion, but you can definitely alter how they interpret these emotions, and make them understand it in a certain way.

[Zealot]

Thank you for making me realize how stupid my previous statement was.
What i meant was.. That when people ask for a demonstration or explanation to how a non-capitalist society would work, then it would be very nice to have some kind of visualization.

Stateless, moneyless, classless, with the people owning the means of production etc. etc. AFAIK, all that Fresco has are some impressive drawings and some videos. What specifically do you want us to tell you that doesn't sound utopian or hasn't already been said?

[Rafiq]

And in his views, we should create a utopia environment where positive views are harbored.

Still utopia if you ask me, but it's basically what you said.

And this is grade A Idealism, here. To think that the human mind can just shape, and construct the environment to adjust to our will is absolutely ridiculous, Idealist, and Utopian.

The whole point of materialism is that the material conditions over ride human consciousness and will.

[Prinskaj]

Well no one can really give you an in-depth idea of how things will work and how things will be managed. Most of the changes would be political and economic, more than design and architect. Workers will be in control, meaning direct democracy, local councils making direct decisions to govern themselves, there would be no money. There would be no kings or masters. Other than that, we just got to get there to see.

I am already pretty familiar with the political structures of such a society. And i am not asking for blueprint and the likes. By visualization i mean charts and graphics to easily explain how it would function, such as the chart below. As i seem to recall having seen some like it around this forum.

http://www.consensus.net/flowchart.jpg

[Rafiq]

Right. But say you go 1984 on some kid and constantly

To bring about such conditions is impossible.



fill his head with ideas like 'orgasm is bad', 'peace is war', 'hunger is a good thing', all through out his childhood. It won't make it true, but if you do this all through out his childhood, and do it right, he will be thoroughly convinced about some of the things you say

This is where we are wrong. Instincts like Hunger, Orgasm, ect. are not Ideas, or thoughts, they are simply pre determined necessities that our machin- I mean bodies need to go through in order to survive. What we have in comomon with animals (Sexual desire, hunger) is not necesserily or directly determined by material conditions (However, some could argue, yes it is, because those are traits that were developed through evolution, in which our bodies were adjusted to the material conditions of this planet) but what made humans a geological factor was an accident. The up-right posture of our ancestors was a great contributing factor to the rise and dominance of humans. We were able to walk on two legs (get around anywhere) and we had to hands, etc.

So no, you cannot convince a human being to want hunger, because, even if the human will refrain from eating, he will ,eventually, out of instinct have to feed, in which his instincts will over ride his "will".


, and it will definitely alter his perception on sex, hunger, ect.

edit:
I guess what I'm trying to get at, is you can't suppress normal human desires and emotion, but you can definitely alter how they interpret these emotions, and make them understand it in a certain way.

[Franz Fanonipants]

utopian socialism is fucking terrible and becomes even more terrible when merged with nerd bullshit

marxism is the answer to this ridiculous, pie in the sky, transhumanist garbage.

[cenv]

They're right to point out how recent technological innovation creates the concrete possibility of new forms of economic and social organization. So in this sense, at least, they're less utopian and idealistic than self-described Marxists who shy away from providing tangible material analyses, preferring to adopt a "wait and see" attitude or trying to imitate the revolutions of the last century. Whatever the Venus Project's flaws, this makes them seem more in touch with reality than a lot of the left.

That said, their project isn't as radical as it might seem at first glance. They critique capitalism, but they lack any meaningful historical perspective and skim over class analysis. Consequently, their project accepts core assumptions of bourgeois ideology. Even the touted "cities of the future" they've poured so much thought into draw on the basic tenets of bourgeois city planning, failing to realize how the dominant conceptualization of urban space is just an ideological extension of private property.

Noam Chomsky pointed out that the Venus Project actually endorses passive acceptance of capitalism by isolating itself from the class struggle, situating itself outside of capitalism instead of against it. Also, I'm not sure about the details of this, but from what I hear, there are some questions about how much of the Venus Project's work is motivated by desire to create a new mode of social organization vs. just turning a profit.

So the best approach for us to take as communists is to steal the few good ideas they have and ignore the rest. :)

[Strannik]

Do you want to live in a city that was built by one guy and his robots or in a city that is constantly built and re-built by those who live in it?

I believe that technocrats look only at the capital side of future economy. But economy has two resource classes - capital and labor. Resources/means of production and human lifetime spent using it.

While socialists and communists might agree with technocrats on how to manage capital (energy credit, central distribution system, total access to objective economic information), technocrats either ignore the labor part of economy or believe that labor - possibility to form your material environment according to your desires - is a privilege that should be reserved to a handful of "specialists". This is why their visions are static - it is not clear how to get there (for that requires massive labor effort) and once you get there it is unclear how to move forward. Their visions lack the living, evolving part, constant evolution.

[newdayrising]

In my opinion, the worst thing about The Venus Project is the idea that computers will decide what to do about everything, including running society, because, after all, if they advance enough they'll be able to make perfect "objective" decisions.

I have no problem with using technology to free humanity from work. Communism should and will provide humanity with more and more free time. However, being "free" from participating in our own destiny and being "freed" from creatively managing society is a horrible prospect. Communism will destroy the need for "Politics" as in something separate from running the actual material means of society, so if we leave that on the hands of computers, I wonder how will we exercise our collective creativity to go forward as a species. Which is the point of Communism in the first place.

The fact that it says nothing about classes has a lot to do with the reason computers are supposed to run society. Couldn't be more bourgeois. The bourgeoisie would rather have a classless society run by machines than to imagine the working class abolishing class society and creating the collective means to run it.