The Christian Left

[Zostrianos]

I just found this interesting website:
http://www.thechristianleft.org/

It's pretty cool, it's a Christian site that seeks to counter fundamentalism, defends socialist principles as a basis for Christianity (though claiming socialism alone is not enough), and supports the theory of evolution and science in general. The only thing I found creepy is that they quote fundamentalist Billy Graham at one point (why? :confused:), but otherwise they seem pretty neat:

Ed Schultz asked on his radio show recently, “Is there a ‘religious left’?” Yes, Ed. There is. We are The Christian Left. We’re all around you. We’re among the people. Take a look. We’re part of the Body of Christ. We’re Christians. We’re Liberal. We make no apologies. In fact Jesus' ways are “Liberal.” That’s why He was killed. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were the conservatives of their time. This is clear. Oh and Ed, we love you. Keep up the good fight!
We’re not ‘New Age.’ We’re not waiting for some earthly leader to come and make everything alright - that man already came. When He comes back, there will be no doubt who HE is. Everyone, without exception, will know. Until then, we are part of the Body of Christ. We’re not ‘Communists’ or ‘Marxists’ either. We reject all such labels. We will not be profiled or pigeonholed and we will not ‘Be Quiet.’ We’re Christians. We’re Liberals. Please get used to it. .....

See, it wasn’t just Jesus’ birth, death, and resurrection that matter. It was his life too! The life he lived is a huge part of the deal, and he asked us to do a few things if you look at his words. Not only is what Jesus said the Word of God, but what Jesus DID is also the Word of God. Looking at the life of Jesus we see that Jesus made room for those cut off from the rest of society. Jesus put a name and a face on all who had been forgotten or pushed aside, even the dead. Jesus called us to carry our cross daily and follow him. That’s what Social Justice means. .....

The exclusionary tactics and demonization that is so frequently practiced by the Christian Right is not of the Jesus we follow. John the Baptist said, “every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” The tree that is the Christian Right all too frequently bears fruit of anger, hate and judgment. It produces some strange fruit. “The same strange fruit that white supremacists hung from the trees in the South. The same strange fruit that the Nazis baked in the ovens of Auschwitz. The same strange fruit that was diced and sliced with machetes in Rwanda. The same strange fruit that is left to rot to death in Africa because the cost of a cure may undercut someone’s bottom line. The same strange fruit that is pounded to death daily with rocks and bombs in the Middle East. The same strange fruit that are depressed to death because of homophobic bullying. Trees that bear these fruits, systems that bear these fruits are to be cut down and thrown into the fires – they are the chaff that God wills to burn in an “unquenchable fire,” where they will bear the fruit of domination no longer.” (from Rev. Mark Sandlin’s sermon, “All Means All.”) .....

While non-religious socialists sometimes find support for socialism in the Gospels (for example Mikhail Gorbachev citing Jesus as “the first socialist”), The Christian Left does not find that socialism alone is an adequate end or means. Christian faith is the core of their belief which in turn demands social justice.

[Revolutionair]

Left as in third position/social democracy/corporatism/welfarism.


I consider Christian conservatives/Christian third positionists/social Christians/Christian democrats to be the same ideology. A welfare state, faith, 'strive for good mannered capitalists', and when a crisis approaches (because they are also capitalist) they can still lash out at religious minorities.

[manic expression]

Left as in third position/social democracy/corporatism/welfarism.
For a lot of people, that's a big step in the right direction at least.

[hatzel]

Left as in third position/social democracy/corporatism/welfarism.

Or left as in the left wing of capital as in what shitloads of self-declared 'leftists' - including a tonne of people on this site - could rightly be accused of being a part of...yeah, it's the Christian left alright.

Incidentally Christian revolutionaries are amongst those I hold dearest. I don't necessarily agree with everything this site says, but nor am I particularly repulsed by it.

[Nial Fossjet]

While I understand that these ideologies/movements may not be considered leftist, I'm kind of tired of seeing "third position" thrown out everywhere. These ideologies may be considered attempts at a "third way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(moderate_left_politics))", but third positionism is a specific neo-Nazi/neo-fascist type of thought. Just because an ideology is bad, or isn't leftist, doesn't mean it's necessarily crypto-fascist.

[Franz Fanonipants]

if you're a christian "leftist" and your concern is "countering fundamentalism" rather than performing acts of mercy you are liberal scum. the end.

E: further if you are a christian and not a Marxist welp

[NGNM85]

Christianity is fundamentally incompatible with Leftism. That said; it may be advantageous to form a loose, and temporary, alliance with individuals such as these, against the common enemy of religious fundamentalists.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Christianity is fundamentally incompatible with Leftism. That said; it may be advantageous to form a loose, and temporary, alliance with individuals such as these, against the common enemy of religious fundamentalists.

the common enemy of religious fundamentalism you fucking liberal dummy

you are no better than an anti-communist

e: you know how i know? because you have never, ever, once mentioned capital. like you don't believe it exists.

[The left is right]

Left as in third position/social democracy/corporatism/welfarism.


I consider Christian conservatives/Christian third positionists/social Christians/Christian democrats to be the same ideology. A welfare state, faith, 'strive for good mannered capitalists', and when a crisis approaches (because they are also capitalist) they can still lash out at religious minorities.

Well at least the Christian left are more compassionate and certainly better than the Christian Right. It is easier for you to be an armchair revolutionary and say that liberals are not radical enough. But at least they are making moves away from the cold, heartless conservatism.

And just because they are Christian does not mean that they will "lash out at religious minorities"

[NGNM85]

the common enemy of religious fundamentalism you fucking liberal dummy

Religious fundamentalists being adherents of religious fundamentalism. This is just a 'tomato/tomato' thing. I won't waste my time with the accusation. It's just in-group slander. The Marxist equivalent of 'buttface', and about equally intelligent. Honestly; I'm not convinced you know what it means.


you are no better than an anti-communist

Determinations of value are, to a large extent, subjective. I am, among other thing, a totally consistent, and, even, for lack of a better term, a fairly ‘orthodox’ Anarchist. What value you choose to place on this is your own perogative.


e: you know how i know? because you have never, ever, once mentioned capital. like you don't believe it exists.

I know what the word means. I just don’t subscribe to this dogmatic (It could even be called ‘religious.’) economic reductionism, with good reason. Furthermore; I’ve never made a secret of this.

[hatzel]

e: you know how i know? because you have never, ever, once mentioned capital. like you don't believe it exists.

Capital has no material form. No metaphysical basis for existence in rigid materialism. It is an abstraction. An idea. A ghost of the mind. Mensch, es spukt in deinem Kopfe!

[Azraella]

Frankly I find the idea that there is an "orthodox" anarchism to be disturbing and inaccurate. For one, anarchism is a much more diverse ideology than Marxism, which makes it much more difficult to compare between the two. Also considering that some anarchists are individualist anti-commies and that there are others that are collectivist commies to their core. Going even further than that, anarchists heavily disagree on social issues too. Animal rights? Religion? Transhumanism? Green Anarchism? Feminism? Pacifism? One could argue that feminism is intrinsic to anarchism but green anarchism or transhumanism is not, for instance. Anarchism is not a monolithic ideology. It is much more complex than what some anarchists like to make it out to be. This isn't even going into details about post-left anarchism or anti-civ/primitivist anarchism which may or may not be accepted as anarchist. Finally, the biggest contention between anarchists and Marxists is what actually constitutes socialism. Anarchists have a simpler definition than Marxists, some anarchists are influenced by Marx, others like me like Marxist economics but really don't like Marxist solutions/philosophy.

---

That said, I really would be interested in seeing Christian radical leftists write more about their views and such. I don't like Christian liberals much, but it's better than nothing.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Capital has no material form. No metaphysical basis for existence in rigid materialism. It is an abstraction. An idea. A ghost of the mind. Mensch, es spukt in deinem Kopfe!

comrade basically ngnm does not believe in mat'l things only platonic forms that listen to bad religion and draw anarchy symbols in the sky.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I know what the word means. I just don’t subscribe to this dogmatic (It could even be called ‘religious.’) economic reductionism, with good reason. Furthermore; I’ve never made a secret of this.

snnrrrk liberal

[Klaatu]

The big mistake people are making is that they are merging politics and religion ("left-christian," "right-christian," etc)

History has shown that religion and politics should not be in bed together, because their offspring is ultimately evil and corruption.

[Franz Fanonipants]

The big mistake people are making is that they are merging politics and religion ("left-christian," "right-christian," etc)

History has shown us that religion and politics should not be in bed together, because their offspring is always evil and corruption.

hahaha yeah because there were NO ameliorating factors other than the FULL COOPERATION OF RELIGION AND THE STATE/BODY POLITIC

no acquisitive, imperial motives

no class warfare

just the bald evil of religion

[NGNM85]

comrade basically ngnm does not believe in mat'l things only platonic forms that listen to bad religion and draw anarchy symbols in the sky.

As a metaphysical materialist I only believe in material things. However; I don't believe in the religions of historical materialism, or dialectical materialism.

I actually like Bad Religion, but your attempt to characterize me as some sort of lifestylist (Incidentally; it would have been much more appropriate to choose a band like Crass, or Conflict.) is totally unfounded. I've been quite critical of lifestylism, because it's utter bullshit. Also, you've said it pretty clearly, here, between the nonsense, you're problem is with Anarchism, not me. You think it's total bullshit. That's fine. I mean, you're completely wrong, but you're free to believe whatever nonsense you want to believe. However; A: I've never once claimed to be anything else., and B: Supposedly; this is an Anarchist-friendly forum. That's actually why I came here. I found out pretty quickly that, in actuality, Anarchists are more of a tolerated minority, but that is supposed to be official policy.

[bcbm]

comrade basically ngnm does not believe in mat'l things only platonic forms that listen to bad religion and draw anarchy symbols in the sky.

snnrrrk liberal

please don't make spam and flame posts here, this is a verbal warning.

[Franz Fanonipants]

As a metaphysical materialist I only believe in material things. However; I don't believe in the religions of historical materialism, or dialectical materialism.

thats unfortunate because without that understanding of reality, basically you're useless in any revolutionary sense.

even as an "anarchist" bro, you're basically stuck around 1800 in terms of your ability to perform political discourse.

[NGNM85]

thats unfortunate because without that understanding of reality, basically you're useless in any revolutionary sense.

even as an "anarchist" bro, you're basically stuck around 1800 in terms of your ability to perform political discourse.

I concede that is entirely consistent with your religious beliefs, which, as I've said, I don't subscribe to.

[Azraella]

If we're going to be discussing dialetical materialism and historical materialism, I will not that NGMNwhatever isn't actually wrong about it, in that anarchists don't all accept them. Many anarchists reject it, believing that revolution is not an inevitability but rather a desirable eventuality. In fact, contemporary anarchism in general is usually more accepting of historical materialism but some reject dialetical materialism as it's seen as a pseudo-science by those anarchists. A huge point of contention is that dialetical materialism dehumanizes people as agents of history and many of the same criticisms can come from within Marxist thought as well, especially with the autonomist and humanistic strands.

Just a FYI.

[Astarte]

As a metaphysical materialist I only believe in material things...

:laugh:

[NGNM85]

:laugh:

Would you care to furnish me with evidence that we do not live in a material universe? While you're at it, I'd be curious to see the expirimental data verifying the existence of whatever god you believe in.

[Revolution starts with U]

No, he/she seen "metaphysical materialist" and his/her head exploded. Seems they don't know what that word means:


met·a·phys·ics/ˌmetəˈfiziks/


Noun:

The branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, cause,...

[Astarte]

No, it is not my unfamiliarity with the word metaphysics that is the problem. Its the combination of "Metaphysical Materialism" that admittedly, through me for a bit of a loop.

It just seems very contradictory - a good five to ten minutes after I posted the above I kind of got to thinking "I probably shouldn't have been so mocking" because it seems kind of interesting now that I think about it.

Its just that there are so many orthodox materialists around here that their faith in "materialism" as the only thing that could possibly exist ever seems a little "metaphysical" to me to begin with, so I thought it was a funny thing to call oneself... a metaphysical materialist...

EDIT: I.E. someone please explain it to me since I honestly feel I am still missing how it is different from a materialist perspective...

[blake 3:17]

I don't know any of the folks involved in the Christian left site, but think it a positive development. I promoted the site several years ago in a left paper I wrote for.

Christians have played very very important roles in the North American peace movement, often with more consistency than those on the secular Left.

A Caandian equivalent might be the Christian Peacemaker Teams http://www.cpt.org/

They've done some great work on Iraq and Palestine.

To discount the role of progressive Christians is a really bad idea and completely defeatist throughout the Americas.

[NGNM85]

No, it is not my unfamiliarity with the word metaphysics that is the problem. Its the combination of "Metaphysical Materialism" that admittedly, through me for a bit of a loop.

It just seems very contradictory - a good five to ten minutes after I posted the above I kind of got to thinking "I probably shouldn't have been so mocking" because it seems kind of interesting now that I think about it.

Its just that there are so many orthodox materialists around here that their faith in "materialism" as the only thing that could possibly exist ever seems a little "metaphysical" to me to begin with, so I thought it was a funny thing to call oneself... a metaphysical materialist...

EDIT: I.E. someone please explain it to me since I honestly feel I am still missing how it is different from a materialist perspective...

Oh. It seems I misinterpreted. Here’s a definition from Google Answers;

'In philosophy, materialism is that form of physicalism which holds
that the only thing that can truly be said to exist is matter; that
fundamentally, all things are composed of material and all phenomena
are the result of material interactions. Science uses a working
assumption, sometimes known as methodological naturalism, that
observable events in nature are explained only by natural causes
without assuming the existence or non-existence of the supernatural.
As a theory, materialism belongs to the class of monist ontology. As
such, it is different from ontological theories based on dualism or
pluralism. In terms of singular explanations of the phenomenal
reality, materialism stands in sharp contrast to idealism.


Metaphysical naturalism is any worldview in which nature is all there
is and all things supernatural (which stipulatively includes as well
as spirits and souls, non-natural values, and universals as they are
commonly conceived) do not exist. It is often simply referred to as
naturalism, and occasionally as philosophical naturalism or
ontological naturalism, though all those terms have other meanings as
well, with naturalism often referring to methodological naturalism.'

[bcbm]

:laugh:

please don't make posts consisting of only a smiley this is considered spam this is a verbal warning

[RGacky3]

Left as in third position/social democracy/corporatism/welfarism.


I consider Christian conservatives/Christian third positionists/social Christians/Christian democrats to be the same ideology. A welfare state, faith, 'strive for good mannered capitalists', and when a crisis approaches (because they are also capitalist) they can still lash out at religious minorities.


Whether or not you want a social-democratic outcome or a socialist outcome is irrelivant. Christianity is the moral framework and the motivation that christian leftists base their personal activism from, whether or not they think social-democracy or a destruction of capitalism is better is a totally different issue.


Well at least the Christian left are more compassionate and certainly better than the Christian Right. It is easier for you to be an armchair revolutionary and say that liberals are not radical enough. But at least they are making moves away from the cold, heartless conservatism.


I personally don't think there is a Christian right, any more than there is a Chinese "communist" party, it is literally a self contradiction to be a war-mongering, nationast pro Capitalist Christian, even a naive glance at the New Testiment scriptures would make this apparent. The same way it is literally a self contradiction to have a union busting communist party.

[Zostrianos]

A Caandian equivalent might be the Christian Peacemaker Teams http://www.cpt.org/
They've done some great work on Iraq and Palestine.
To discount the role of progressive Christians is a really bad idea and completely defeatist throughout the Americas.

They look very decent. I do hope they're genuine, and not some "aid in exchange for conversion" scam like most Christian "charities" are.

[Franz Fanonipants]

They look very decent. I do hope they're genuine, and not some "aid in exchange for conversion" scam like most Christian "charities" are.

bro when you basically worship chris hitchens do you like have to cut the pro-dead arab parts out of his works or do you leave them in and write glosses on them

e: like any capitalist secular "charities" are any different