fuck you if you don't think racism's a problem in europe

[#FF0000]

or "not as much of a problem" compared to somewhere else.

[Comrade J]

Who ever said that..?:confused:

[Red Future]

Its "hidden" but yes we do have a problem with racism in Europe.It varies from country to country.South Italy is the 1st place that comes to my mind.

[Blake's Baby]

York's a bastion of tolerance then is it? Funny, I used to live in the north-east of England and it was a whites-only zone. County Durham is the least ethnically-diverse place in the UK, as far as I can tell. It's also traditionally been a recruiting-ground for the far-right (National Front in my day, now the EDL I believe).

[#FF0000]

Who ever said that..?:confused:

Every time racism comes up, actually, we have European members chime in and talk about how awful racism is in America while ignoring their roving anti-muslim murder gangs, draconian immigration policies, and powerful overtly racist politicians.

i remember one guy literally said racism wasn't a big deal in eastern europe lol

and then there was Comrade Man from Italy, who insisted racism wasn't an issue there. lol x2

[Lobotomy]

What's even weirder is when Americans defend Europe as some haven of tolerance and secularism.

[freya4]

Actually, for all its faults, America is probably one of the least racist places in the world (maybe with the exception of Canada or something). Europe has a lot more racism, especially in the South and East. Northern and Western Europe are also racist to some degree, but it is a lot more subtle.

[NewLeft]

Actually, for all its faults, America is probably one of the least racist places in the world (maybe with the exception of Canada or something). Europe has a lot more racism, especially in the South and East. Northern and Western Europe are also racist to some degree, but it is a lot more subtle.

Subtle racism is everywhere here in Toronto...

[Rafiq]

Canada is the least racist place on Earth.

[NewLeft]

Canada is the least racist place on Earth.

lol Come to Alberta.

[Commissar Rykov]

or "not as much of a problem" compared to somewhere else.

Funny you bring that up those arguments were bothering me the other day for some reason as well.

[Fawkes]

Actually, for all its faults, America is probably one of the least racist places in the world (maybe with the exception of Canada or something). Europe has a lot more racism, especially in the South and East. Northern and Western Europe are also racist to some degree, but it is a lot more subtle.

You know you live in a fucked up world when a country of reservations, ghettos, border patrols, and prisons is "one of the least racist places in the world"

[Red Noob]

You guys think you have it bad, try living down here in Antarctica...

[ellipsis]

Canada is the least racist place on Earth.

tell that to the First Nations.

[hatzel]

You guys think you have it bad, try living down here in Antarctica...

http://mstecker.com/images/antarctica/antarcticaHP/I39IB1.JPG

Heaven for white supremacists, clearly...

Hardly a day goes by that I don't read about some racist incident here in London. Add in the rest of the country and the rest of the continent...well, it most certainly adds up. But we all know this already.

[tachosomoza]

Racism is a problem everywhere. I'd go for Vancouver, BC if I was going to pick the "least racist" city.

[Ocean Seal]

I actually see it the other way. I find that many Americans undermine the problems of racism in this country and often claim that it is a far bigger problem in Europe. But both sides are incorrect since racism is a huge problem in both places.

[X5N]

Of course it's a problem. If it wasn't, Geert Wilders and his brownshirts wouldn't be in the Dutch parliament.

[freya4]

You know you live in a fucked up world when a country of reservations, ghettos, border patrols, and prisons is "one of the least racist places in the world"
Well I'm not saying that racism isn't a problem in America, because it obviously is. You only need to look at the crime statistics or government policies on immigration to see that. But I think the general populace is not that racist/prejudiced, at least relatively speaking, mainly due to the fact that the US is very diverse and multicultural, making contact with other races and groups difficult to avoid.

[Lanky Wanker]

Every time racism comes up, actually, we have European members chime in and talk about how awful racism is in America while ignoring their roving anti-muslim murder gangs, draconian immigration policies, and powerful overtly racist politicians.


I don't mean to be an annoying dick or anything, but this pisses me off. Unless I'm missing something here, you mean anti-*specific racial group(s)* murder gangs. I have a strong dislike for Islam (the same way I do for Christianity, Judaism and most other organised religions), but that doesn't make me racist. Just because Islam is more prominent amongst certain races, that doesn't make Islam a race. Being anti-Muslim and being, for example, anti-Pakistani are two completely different things. We don't say that a Muslim who hates Christians is racist, so it just annoys me when people do it the other way round.

[Ocean Seal]

I don't mean to be an annoying dick or anything but this annoys me. Unless I'm missing something here, you mean anti-*specific racial group(s)* murder gangs. I hate Islam (just as I hate Christianity and Judaism), but that doesn't make me racist. Just because Islam is more prominent amongst certain races, that doesn't make Islam a race. Being anti-Muslim and being, for example, anti-Pakistani are two completely different things.
Yes, but the murder gangs are against Pakistanis, Arabs, and North Africans and try to alienate people of the Islamic faith. And also don't be ridiculous you perfectly understood FF0000's post. If you consider an anti-Muslim gang any more legitimate than a racist gang out of anti-theism then you are just being ridiculous.

[black magick hustla]

"antimuslim" in europe is code for "anti-brown". anyone who doesnt get this has a huge crater in their brain. to hell with "secular democracy" viva el comunismo

[hatzel]

To be honest if you're of the majority there's a chance you won't hear all that much about the treatment of the minority/-ies, except for in the very rare event that such an incident becomes newsworthy - the Stephen Lawrence murder and ongoing trial is a topical example, yet of course represents only a tiny fraction of all racist incidents in this country, the vast majority of which pass almost entirely unreported. To take an example from the last couple of weeks: the JC will mention each and every time somebody even chucks an egg at some Jew, or some other relatively minor incident, but this kind of stuff generally doesn't come up in the mainstream press. Similarly, Muslims are considerably more likely to catch wind of racist incidents against them, either through their media outlets or through social interaction in the community. And, of course, anybody of a minority is more likely to have personally experienced discrimination, and may more readily sense racist undertones in society; a young black man, for example, is acutely aware of the racism prevalent in law enforcement, whilst somebody in a position of relative privilege may be able to turn a blind eye to these realities, thus giving the illusion of racism being considerably more prevalent abroad than it is at home.

It is perhaps feasible that an individual of the majority, never personally experiencing racist discrimination, nor hearing of it from their peers or the media, would come to the conclusion that it is largely absent from their society. They may therefore see no need to actively seeking out the racism they do not believe is there to be found, this being considered a superfluous endeavour. Conversely, when looking to foreign countries - when one obviously cannot make an assessment based on personal experience, what one has oneself witnessed - such individuals may be more open to the possibility of racism being prominent, actively seeking out lesser-heard news articles as an Ersatz for the experiential assessment of society they can formulate for their own countries.

Or maybe it's just about the whole thing that if white Europeans acknowledge that there actually is racism in Europe then they have to recognise that they are participants in a racist society, that they constitute a part of an oppressor-group. Which isn't nice. Hence they seek to shift responsibility, to claim that the racist and oppressive whites are not the same whites that they belong to, but another group of whites, in a different place. But I was trying to be nice by giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying the first thing first, because that could potentially be the result of a simple oversight, rather than anything malicious.

[brigadista]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/dec/31/britain-racist-murdered-indian-student

After a week of grief and frustration, the family of Indian student Anuj Bidve has hit out at the British authorities, accusing police and officials of dragging their feet and failing to help them in their hour of need.

The 23-year-old was shot in the head in the early hours of Boxing Day as he walked through Salford with a group of eight Indian friends, fellow students from Lancaster University. His family say the authorities need to do more to restore their faith in Britain and to prove to them that the UK is not a racist country.

Police have offered a £50,000 reward in an attempt to catch the killers. They have made a number of arrests and categorised the killing as a "hate crime", but Bidve's family in the Indian city of Pune are becoming increasingly angry about the handling of the case.

They have accused the police of failing to contact them to inform them of their son's death – they only found out when his friends started to contact them through Facebook – and of neglecting the case because it was the festive season.

The delay in getting Bidve's body home has infuriated family members, who say the British authorities were more concerned about Christmas and the new year festivities than in helping the family observe their traditions.

"It is unacceptable to us," said Rakesh Sonawane, Bidve's brother-in-law. "They say the investigation is still pending, the charge sheet has not been filed and a second postmortem is still pending. The holidays are taking their toll. If there were more people working, we would not have to wait so long.

It is a very sensitive issue for any Indian. If someone dies, we have to perform all the rites. We burn the body on the day of death and for the next 13 days we have to do several other things, otherwise the soul might not rest in peace."

He said that he and Bidve's father, Subhash, were ready to fly to Britain to bring the body home, but despite help from the Indian authorities there had been no progress in getting it released.

Early this morning Manchester police announced that a senior officer, accompanied by a family liaison officer, are to fly to India today to meet the family.

Sonawane said the family was reluctant to come up with charges of racism against Britain, but they could not understand why they were being kept in the dark. "It is extremely disappointing the way we have been treated. We still don't know what course of action was taken by the British police when they were informed of the attack. We don't know what hospital he was taken to, what treatment he received or whether he was taken there in time. We are told it took half an hour and that that is not normal for the UK. If there was a delay in taking him, why did that happen?"

He said the family were upset about the way they had been treated and that it had affected their view of Britain. "I really want that the UK authorities should help us in changing our perceptions," he said."We still have a lot of faith in the UK authorities and the police, but they have to help us more. They have to help us to believe again that Britain is not a racist place."

He said the family had been concerned about whether Britain was a safe place for an Indian to go before sending Bidve to college. "All my friends who have been to the UK have had some sort of bad experience there," he said. However, he said the young student was excited about the opportunity to study in Britain.

Three teenagers – one 16-year-old and two 17-year-olds – arrested in connection with the killing were granted bail on Friday. Another, aged 19, was released on bail last night and a 20-year-old remains in custody. The murder weapon has not been found.

Police have apologised to the family for the initial handling of the case, and in particular about the fact that they found out about the killing on Facebook. "That is not the way anyone should have to find out something so devastating and we completely understand how upset the family are," said Dawn Copley, the Greater Manchester Police assistant chief constable. She said police had attempted to track down the family, but were beaten by the social networking site. "Unfortunately, as the officer was attempting to contact the family through the right channels, a post was put on Facebook. We have no control over when and what people post, but no one should hear such tragic news in this way."

The student was shot in the head at point-blank range as he walked with friends near their hotel in the inner-city Ordsall district of Salford, in the early hours of 26 December.

Police say the gunman, a white man in his twenties who was wearing a grey top, walked across the road and spoke to Bidve before taking out a gun and shooting him in the side of the head. Police say the killing – which they described as "extremely unusual and savage" – may have been racially motivated.

British police plan to send officers to India to liaise with family members.

[Lanky Wanker]

Yes, but the murder gangs are against Pakistanis, Arabs, and North Africans and try to alienate people of the Islamic faith. And also don't be ridiculous you perfectly understood FF0000's post. If you consider an anti-Muslim gang any more legitimate than a racist gang out of anti-theism then you are just being ridiculous.

I think any gang that goes and beats up people because of their religion is almost as stupid as a gang that beats people up because of their race, so no, I don't think they are any more "legitimate" than a racist gang. My point is that Muslim is not a synonym for any specific race(s). Anti-Muslim and anti-whatever race are two different things. As I said, just because Islam is much more popular in certain countries, that does not in any way make 'Muslim' and 'Arab' interchangeable terms. If an Arab comes to Europe and beats up Christians because of their faith, is he now a racist? I'm not denying that these anti-Muslim gangs are probably all full blown racists too, but throwing the racist label at someone when the topic is religion is stupid.

[#FF0000]

I think any gang that goes and beats up people because of their religion is almost as stupid as a gang that beats people up because of their race, so no, I don't think they are any more "legitimate" than a racist gang. My point is that Muslim is not a synonym for any specific race(s). Anti-Muslim and anti-whatever race are two different things. As I said, just because Islam is much more popular in certain countries, that does not in any way make 'Muslim' and 'Arab' interchangeable terms. If an Arab comes to Europe and beats up Christians because of their faith, is he now a racist? I'm not denying that these anti-Muslim gangs are probably all full blown racists too, but throwing the racist label at someone when the topic is religion is stupid.

i think you are missing a huge thing here.

They say they target "muslims".

But if they get drunk and start bashing people's heads in, they're not gonna stop and ask. They are going to attack someone who "looks" muslim. That is, they're going to attack someone who looks middle-eastern.

but hey let me accommodate your nitpicking bullshit and we'll just call it bigotry or xenophobia instead. hoo boy i am so glad you brought this issue up. it's vitally important that we pick the right specific descriptor to use when people are ganging up on the "other".

[Lanky Wanker]

i think you are missing a huge thing here.

They say they target "muslims".

But if they get drunk and start bashing people's heads in, they're not gonna stop and ask. They are going to attack someone who "looks" muslim. That is, they're going to attack someone who looks middle-eastern.

but hey let me accommodate your nitpicking bullshit and we'll just call it bigotry or xenophobia instead. hoo boy i am so glad you brought this issue up. it's vitally important that we pick the right specific descriptor to use when people are ganging up on the "other".

Of course, that is racism when you randomly attack someone assuming they follow this faith or the other, based on their race. Like I said, maybe I'm misunderstanding your actual point. If you attack a bunch of guys wearing religious items of clothing who are coming out of a mosque though, I think we can agree they're probably Muslim. That's what I was trying to communicate.

[dodger]

I have found the most anti catholic people are some of the Irish I have lived amongst.

Similarly the most Islamaphobic are exMuslims. Religion in Britain an irrelevance or irritation or a joke. Many reactions mostly along those lines, positive. Tamed centuries ago, we ignore Papal 'advice'. In short we know the blight religion brings. We know that those who sought to terrorize kill and maim killed their co religionists. How could they not, on a Tube train and London bus. One of them lived in my home town, his wife a local lass had converted to Islam, met him, and had a child, he decided to go on a killing spree. The local Mosque was nonplussed. He was British born ,West Indian mother, as were the others, born here. Local muslim kids cheered going over the bridge by my house at 9/11....kids, what do you expect? The house occupied by the terrorist suffered an attack, alert neighbours expecting an incident and smelling petrol called emergency services and 2 17yr olds did time. Local 'outlaw' gang paid a visit to my local Paki shop....they were soundly beaten to a pulp. We were all happy about that....they had it coming. Infact they disbanded soon after....the social humiliation...I met their quartermaster a day after the incident and was reduced to tears of laughter, I thought my sides would split. A county market town 27 miles from London. Latterly a dormitory for commuters. Yes I remember the terrorist he fed my ducks outside my house on the canal. A delightful setting mum, dad, and baby all excited. I can see them now, looking over my computer her dressed in muslim gear him saying to kid ....that big one is such a greedy duck and them all laughing.

What happened? Somebody tell me, cos it beats the f*** outta me.

[o well this is ok I guess]

lol Come to Alberta. Why do we still live here

[Red Future]

York's a bastion of tolerance then is it?

Oh my ....in no way so.Average ratio is about 5/1 White British to other groups , so no Birmingham at all .I would say more rural locations in North Yorkshire are worse though.

[hatzel]

If you attack a bunch of guys wearing religious items of clothing who are coming out of a mosque though, I think we can agree they're probably Muslim.

...what difference does it make?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Every time racism comes up, actually, we have European members chime in and talk about how awful racism is in America while ignoring their roving anti-muslim murder gangs, draconian immigration policies, and powerful overtly racist politicians.

i remember one guy literally said racism wasn't a big deal in eastern europe lol

and then there was Comrade Man from Italy, who insisted racism wasn't an issue there. lol x2

I remember on another forum, a few years back, some jackass from Australia was basically saying that Americans are all a bunch of Klansmen who lynch black people on the weekends, and thank god he lived in a bastion of tolerance and harmony like Australia. To which I replied lol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Cronulla_riots)

My mom was telling me once about this book she was reading, and one of the themes in the book was the problems Sweden is having with integrating immigrants or something. To which I replied: Isn't Sweden fucking 99% white? If some European countries had the demographics of some areas of the USA, they'd probably implode.

[hatzel]

Isn't Sweden fucking 99% white?

Mr Numbers rocks up on the scene to point out there are like a million 'immigrants' in Sweden for their total population of 9 million. The immigrant integration issue is a bit more complex than just figuring out where to put a couple of thousand Nigerians or whatever. And they're not exactly doing all that well.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Mr Numbers rocks up on the scene to point out there are like a million 'immigrants' in Sweden for their total population of 9 million. The immigrant integration issue is a bit more complex than just figuring out where to put a couple of thousand Nigerians or whatever. And they're not exactly doing all that well.

That's true, but a large percentage of those immigrants are Finns, Danes and Norwegians.

[svenne]

My mom was telling me once about this book she was reading, and one of the themes in the book was the problems Sweden is having with integrating immigrants or something. To which I replied: Isn't Sweden fucking 99% white? If some European countries had the demographics of some areas of the USA, they'd probably implode.

Heh, i live in a suburb where around 90 % of the population isn't born (or has any parents born) in Sweden (it's around 10 % in the whole of Sweden). It's your average somewhat nice ghetto (i'm not afraid to go out, but females who's living and has been living there says they're usually called "hookers"). It's kinda not sweet, but i'm pretty sure the even bigger problem is that they're all working class or lumpenproletariat. If i'm not totally wrong here, around 50 % gets their money from welfare. It's pretty funny when you see what you think is one of swedish couples, and they suddenly begin to speak russian...

[Obs]

That's true, but a large percentage of those immigrants are Finns, Danes and Norwegians.
No

[Os Cangaceiros]

According to Wikipedia there are almost half a million Finns in Sweden, are you telling me that Wikipedia's lying?

[Obs]

According to Wikipedia there are almost half a million Finns in Sweden, are you telling me that Wikipedia's lying?
What you're referring to is the Finnish-speaking minority in Sweden, which has been there for centuries. Hardly relevant to the immigration debate today.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I just assumed that the million people LS was refering to were people of "non-Swedish extraction", because judging from the table on Wikipedia the much bally-hooed immigration influx from the middle east doesn't look that significant...maybe 5 percent of Sweden's population? The rest look like they come from various spots in Europe.

[ed miliband]

so my sister is dating a black guy

my neighbour approaches my mum and asks whether it was my sister she saw with a black boy going home from school - when my mum said it was my neighbour preceded to rant about it ("it's such a shame such a nice looking young girl would go for that") and said her husband said it was the final straw for moving out

the worst bit? my dad (who has no problem with my sister dating a black guy) tried to defend my neighbour's husband by saying he's seen him talking to black people

back in london at the weekend - don't know how i'll look at these people

[gorillafuck]

Every time racism comes up, actually, we have European members chime in and talk about how awful racism is in America while ignoring their roving anti-muslim murder gangs, draconian immigration policies, and powerful overtly racist politicians.

i remember one guy literally said racism wasn't a big deal in eastern europe lol

and then there was Comrade Man from Italy, who insisted racism wasn't an issue there. lol x2well you have to understand that unlike America, governments in Europe are not imperialist they are actually victims of America #FF0000

I mean they saved the Falklands you know

[bricolage]

I'm not really sure when this became a competition. If you say there's no racism in Europe you're either a racist or an idiot or both, if you say it's 'not as bad' as other places the same applies, if you try and do either one the other way round about America the same applies again. I mean trying to quantify this in any way is pretty stupid. The world's fucked up, liberal havens don't exist.

[Sam_b]

Its "hidden"

No it isn't.

[Igor]

What you're referring to is the Finnish-speaking minority in Sweden, which has been there for centuries. Hardly relevant to the immigration debate today.

There has been living some Finns in Sweden for centuries, but there also was also some really considerable immigration from Finland to Sweden in the 1960's (it even caused bit of panic here in Finland). Most of the Finns in Sweden have been there only from a few generations, and Sweden still is pretty much the primary country for Finns to migrate to, so it is kind of relevant to the debate today. Though, of course, it's really pretty easy for a Finn to blend in, especially if you're a Swedish-speaking Finn.

Also racism is problem everywhere, Europe is not a magical fairyland and America is not "kind of less racist"

[l'Enfermé]

In the less developed parts of Europe(former Eastern Bloc etc) racism is a big freaking problem and they don't even have that any immigrants to speak of. In the more developed parts of Europe racism seems to be more prominent in areas where there are more immigrants. For example, in the same country, racism can be non-existant in small towns yet a huge problem in the capital and major cities, since immigrants are generally concentrated in the capital and major cities.

[Blake's Baby]

In the less developed parts of Europe(former Eastern Bloc etc) racism is a big freaking problem and they don't even have that any immigrants to speak of. In the more developed parts of Europe racism seems to be more prominent in areas where there are more immigrants. For example, in the same country, racism can be non-existant in small towns yet a huge problem in the capital and major cities, since immigrants are generally concentrated in the capital and major cities.

I don't actually think that's true.

Racism is generally more of a problem where people are 'ethnically' homogenous. In North-East England, for instance (reputedly, the whitest area of the UK, and co-incidently with a much higher unemployment rate than many places) there's far more racism than in for example Leicester, which is going to be (in a few years) the first UK city where indigenous whites will be in a minority. The racists in Leicester mostly come in from the satellite towns and villages (which are much whiter than Leicester is) to taunt the local Gujarati, Somali and Turkish populations.

Even in places that 'might' back up the argument, that immigrants = racism (towns in the North West like Bolton and Blackburn) they aren't big cities, but there is a lot of racism where there are large immigrant communities. However, (unlike for example, Leicester or Birmingham where this does not happen to the same extent) what you have in the North West is areas where there are only white families next to areas where there are only Asian families. Ghettoisation causes problems for both communities, not least in terms of an 'us and them' mentality - communities are competing against each other, and are thus strengthened in their essentialist seige mentality.

I'm not claiming Leiecester and Birmingham are havens of sense and tolerance and niceness because they do have problems for sure, but they don't seem as bad as less intergrated places like Blackburn, even though the actual proportions of immigrants in Leicester may be higher.