Isolated Communism

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

I have a blog post about it here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=6698). I know that may sound silly, but please be aware that I am young and full of imagination.

If anyone has had similar thoughts or good feedback, I'd be interested in discussion about this.

[¿Que?]

Your analysis lacks a social basis for human behavior. It assumes that the problems of general society do not apply to socialist. This is dangerous thinking. Also, what you say sounds a lot like Utopian Socialism taken to the most extreme degree imaginable or in other words, that communists should somehow try to extricate themselves from the system they seek to change. But I think you should contrinue your quest for knowledge, even if I disagree with your conclusions.

[Prometeo liberado]

I have a blog post about it here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=6698). I know that may sound silly, but please be aware that I am young and full of imagination.

If anyone has had similar thoughts or good feedback, I'd be interested in discussion about this.

Its called North Korea.:crying:

[Belleraphone]

To me, the main reason communism has failed to come to the world and last more than 50 years, is that the majority of people are too small minded to work with it well. Some are selfish by nature, while others seem to be idiots who don't care about their society enough to improve it.

Humans, like all other species, are self-motivated and seek to survive and prosper. We see this in capitalism all the time because it is only human nature manifesting itself in society. In order to prosper in capitalism, you have to be selfish, anti-social, and exploitative. The various left ideologies that we adhere to, whichever they may be, seek to create a society where human innovation and self-interest benefits society and the human condition, not just one individual (or one class). As Marx puts it,
In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.



It's true that in all of our existing societies that we would consider revolutionary (Paris Commune, Kibbutz, Catalonia) they were all crushed by external forces, international communism/socialism would be best because there would be no external force that would threaten us, but we can manage even in smaller societies. Anarchist Spain had a good chance of surviving, but they, along with the capitalist Republicans, were crushed by the nationalists. The various leftist struggles only get stronger as more and more industrialization takes place and capitalism takes a deeper hold. Communism is easier to transition to in a society where industry is prevalent versus an agrarian society. This, along with LOTS of revisionism, is why I think the Russian and Chinese revolutions both failed.

The space part is just dumb, sorry.

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

Its called North Korea.:crying:

If you read the post, you will realize that my overall point has little to do with politics.

[Zealot]

It's quite imaginative but idealist nonetheless. Isolated Socialism hasn't worked well on earth, let alone another planet. Two major problems that jump out immediately is firstly, how do we get to said planet, assuming that it exists and can sustain human life. Secondly, how would we utilize the resources of said planet, if any. Undergoing such a huge project as this would require the physical and financial aid of an organization such as NASA, who, in all likelihood, would not support a Communist takeover of space resources.

One possibility would be to launch a revolution once a human colony has been settled, much like the "Red Faction" video game series. However, this is still essentially idealist since human colonies on Mars neither exist and nor will they in the foreseeable future.

I agree, it would be a marvelous thing if it were possible but as materialists we need to avoid utopianism in all its forms and face the hard reality; imperialism and capitalism should be exposed here and now. Even if your creative scenario was a possibility, it would be a tragedy to leave the rest of the people on earth to fight for scraps whilst we rocketed off into the distance to settle on a far away planet and live the good life.

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

Humans, like all other species, are self-motivated and seek to survive and prosper. We see this in capitalism all the time because it is only human nature manifesting itself in society. In order to prosper in capitalism, you have to be selfish, anti-social, and exploitative. The various left ideologies that we adhere to, whichever they may be, seek to create a society where human innovation and self-interest benefits society and the human condition, not just one individual (or one class). As Marx puts it,

I don't agree with that. As much as I dislike capitalism, I don't see it to be the cause of human selfishness and rudeness. This can be seen in examples from everyday life, such as in small children forming social clans, school bullying, etc. All of these people have not experienced or had any thoughts about their economic systems and their risks.

In another example, there are still a few hunter-gatherer tribes in this world. Some people have been observing these, and they noticed that some tribes were peaceful, yet other tribes would still attack them, even when there was no need too.

I just can't see how some humans aren't foul in nature, and that is why I think that people need to separate.


It's true that in all of our existing societies that we would consider revolutionary (Paris Commune, Kibbutz, Catalonia) they were all crushed by external forces, international communism/socialism would be best because there would be no external force that would threaten us, but we can manage even in smaller societies. Anarchist Spain had a good chance of surviving, but they, along with the capitalist Republicans, were crushed by the nationalists. The various leftist struggles only get stronger as more and more industrialization takes place and capitalism takes a deeper hold. Communism is easier to transition to in a society where industry is prevalent versus an agrarian society. This, along with LOTS of revisionism, is why I think the Russian and Chinese revolutions both failed.

But how many people are going to bother to overthrow the bourgeoisie? It seems to me that most people aren't passionate enough to care about the issue that much. I think it's sad, but probably the truth. As for the people who are not foul, most of them are too brainwashed by their capitalist governments and media to know what to do about their class problems.

[Belleraphone]

I don't agree with that. As much as I dislike capitalism, I don't see it to be the cause of human selfishness and rudeness. This can be seen in examples from everyday life, such as in small children forming social clans, school bullying, etc. All of these people have not experienced or had any thoughts about their economic systems and their risks.The behavior of children is not a good model for determing how the rest of society interacts. Look at the family unit, the overwhelming majority of mothers and fathers would not sell their son or daughter into prostitution in order to get more money and personal profit. Most people who see an old woman in a dark alley would not mug her. Most people would not take child from a candy, ect. Also, just look at the anarchist societies such as Spain.


In another example, there are still a few hunter-gatherer tribes in this world. Some people have been observing these, and they noticed that some tribes were peaceful, yet other tribes would still attack them, even when there was no need too.
These tribes have lots of nonsensical superstitions like sacrificing your daughter to blood gods and whatnot, this isn't really relevant to human nature since it's just a bunch of backward thinkers running around naked in the forest.


But how many people are going to bother to overthrow the bourgeoisie? It seems to me that most people aren't passionate enough to care about the issue that much. I think it's sad, but probably the truth. As for the people who are not foul, most of them are too brainwashed by their capitalist governments and media to know what to do about their class problems. We have to wait for the Window of Opportunity, and that's manifesting itself somewhat in OWS. Radical movements, both of the left and right, do best when the status quo takes a turn for the worse.

[Blake's Baby]

If communism hasn't worked because the majority of people are too small-minded and stupid to make it work, then communism can't work, and we should all go and take up flower-arranging or water-skiing instead. If humans are too dumb and/or selfish to co-operate then communism is a non-starter, given that it relies on a view of humanity that stresses our solidarity and intelligence.

Luckily, I don't believe that this is case. I think we're well clever enough and reasonable enough for communism, but the reason it has never happened is that the power structures of our current society mitigate against us (and they have far more power than us). Can't see how small utopian experiments in space or anywhere else are going to change that.

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

Can't see how small utopian experiments in space or anywhere else are going to change that.

Isn't communism also a utopia? I don't think that's a bad thing, but isn't it?

[Prometeo liberado]

If you read the post, you will realize that my overall point has little to do with politics.
Read the wrong post. I suck, youre great. :(

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

Read the wrong post. I suck, youre great. :(

You don't need to over react to it. Geez...

[Blake's Baby]

Isn't communism also a utopia? I don't think that's a bad thing, but isn't it?

No, it isn't.

'Utopia' is an allegorical contruction, a fairy-tale land where the actions of the protagonists in the story and indeed society through its organisation mirror the political or social themes that the author thinks important.

Middle-Earth is a utopia, Disneyland is a utopia, Atlantis is a utopia, and 'Utopia' is a utopia.

Communism is 1 - a (future) classless and communal society; 2 - a political theory designed to bring about a classless communal society.

Communists are not the same as people who dress up on a Sunday and do live-action role-playing in the woods, pretending to be elves and orcs. Really, we're so much not those people.

[Prometeo liberado]

You don't need to over react to it. Geez...

I knew that would come out sounding bitter.

[Prometeo liberado]

You don't need to over react to it. Geez...


I have a blog post about it here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=6698). I know that may sound silly, but please be aware that I am young and full of imagination.

If anyone has had similar thoughts or good feedback, I'd be interested in discussion about this.

I may be wrong and I'll definitely go back and re-read him again, but didn't Gramsci write about this? Here is a Wikipedia def:

Cultural hegemony is the philosophic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic) and sociological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociological) theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory), by the Marxist philosopher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist_philosophy) Antonio Gramsci (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci), that a culturally diverse society can be dominated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_hierarchy) (ruled) by one social class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class), by manipulating the societal culture (beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief), explanations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explanation), perceptions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception), values (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_system)) so that its ruling-class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruling_class) worldview (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltanshauung) is imposed as the societal norm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_%28sociology%29), which then is perceived as a universally valid ideology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology) and status quo beneficial to all of society, whilst benefiting only the ruling class.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_hegemony#cite_note-0)

By my understanding this norm dominates every avenue of our existence. So much so that to even begin to fathom what a just world may entail is beyond most people.

[The Old Man from Scene 24]

I may be wrong and I'll definitely go back and re-read him again, but didn't Gramsci write about this? Here is a Wikipedia def:

Cultural hegemony is the philosophic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic) and sociological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociological) theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory), by the Marxist philosopher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist_philosophy) Antonio Gramsci (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci), that a culturally diverse society can be dominated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_hierarchy) (ruled) by one social class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class), by manipulating the societal culture (beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief), explanations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explanation), perceptions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception), values (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_system)) so that its ruling-class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruling_class) worldview (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltanshauung) is imposed as the societal norm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_%28sociology%29), which then is perceived as a universally valid ideology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology) and status quo beneficial to all of society, whilst benefiting only the ruling class.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_hegemony#cite_note-0)

By my understanding this norm dominates every avenue of our existence. So much so that to even begin to fathom what a just world may entail is beyond most people.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this is a response to my post? My blog article is about living in outer space, far away from the bourgeoisie.

[¿Que?]

Isn't communism also a utopia? I don't think that's a bad thing, but isn't it?
Communism is built on the existing material basis of society. It is not utopian so much so as it is theoretical. Consider that the literal greek translation of the term "utopia" means "no place" or "no where."

[Rodrigo]

Only individuals are isolated

[Prometeo liberado]

My fault americancommunist (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=32149) I should have emphasized what part of your post I was talking about:

Lately, I've been debating with people over the internet and in real life about communism. To my surprise, many of those people knew what true communism was, and they opposed it because they think that '... most people are too foul to make it work.' At first I ignored it, but since then, I have heard countless of others say the same thing. That made me start to think deeper, and I have become worried that this point is too true.

I was trying shed a little more light on the that part of your dilemma and reasons why its so hard for some people to fathom the idea of communism, let alone want it.