Job motivation

[Le Rouge]

Hello.
I just came from a discussion with my brother about what would it take to motivate people to study in communism. He acknowledged that some people would still want to become doctors because it is their greatest dream. But we need some kind of motivation to attract more people to become doctors. Without that motivation, there would be a serious shortage of jobs that need superior education.

Money is what motivate people to study today. But it communism? I mean, in communism, if chose to become a doctor, I will win the same amount than a fucking construction worker.
And how many years it took of my life? It takes a fucking 7 years of studies. During that time, the construction worker was winning his life...
What would be my reward for becoming a doctor in communism?


Also, my bro said that one of his close friend studied Marx in philosophy class. His teacher showed him that Marx was secretly Pro-Capitalism. I don't understand shit. I just responded that Why would he be Pro-Capitalism when he worked all of his life promoting class consciousness and communism.

Anyways... I'm pretty confused.

[Renegade Saint]

I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_each_according_to_his_contribution (http://this)
may answer your question.

I've had issues lately with the linking feature, which is why that link doesn't appear as "this" like I wanted it to.

[Firebrand]

You're missing the point totally. You can't simplify a communist society to "everyone gets paid the same". Its an entirely different way of running society. People do a job because they enjoy it, or because they think its the right thing to do, it takes up as much of your life as you want it to. Likewise you study something it should be because you want to. Study shouldn't be something that gets in the way of your life it should be part of your life. In the same way that work should not be something that interferes with your life it should be a part of your life.
The division between work and life and study is a false one. It should all be life, just different aspects of it. Alienation means that in a capitalist society people resent the work they are forced to do and by extension the study that they need to do in order to do that work. In a communist society work would be something that you chose to do of your own free will and that you should take pleasure and pride in and feel satisfaction for helping the rest of society. Not something that resticts you and binds you to a routine not of your choosing for the benefit of one greedy capitalist.

[Red Noob]

Imagine if it didn't cost $250,000 or how ever much it costs to get that 7 years of university. Some people want to be doctors, but simply aren't privileged enough. And then there are people who become doctors strictly for monetary incentive. This doesn't necessarily mean they are going to be good at doing what they do just because they can afford the schooling, or will understand and easily learn things that a doctor needs.

Some people want to do simple hand labor. It keeps society functioning. Just like we need doctors and engineers, we need craftsmen, construction workers, janitor, septic cleaners, ect. You shouldn't value one person's labor more so than another's simply because they were more financially privileged.

Personally I like the idea of having a simple life growing food in greenhouses, farming talapia and crayfish with aqauponics, just the thought of it seems less stressful and laid back. Nothing relevant about this though.

[Erratus]

Firebrand said it well. People have a tendency to base what communism is stories from the USSR. Communism will be completely different than our world. Right now, we get out into the world and life is largely consumed by this rush to get what you need because we know how easy it is to not get what you need. Then we have this drive to get more and nicer things (due to demand created by capitalists). Between our lavish desires and basic wants and needs, our life is not about living at all. Instead, we give up large portions of our lives working jobs that we often don't like to get these commodities that we often do not need. None of this will be in communism. It natural to assume that without these motives that drive our lives so much, there can be incentives to do anything without lives. This reminds me of some religious people who cannot believe that atheists can have morals. (They think) their morals come from their religion, and the notion has become some basic that the thought of anything different being functional seems impossible.

But just because motives will not be the same as it is in our modern world doesn't mean their won't be motives at all. If nothing else, people should recognize that alternative motives than the one they are custom to are possible.

Without the constant worry of having to work to eat and live comfortably, a person's perspective will change. Working will not be about staying alive, it will be about doing what you want. Getting an education will be the same. College will not the experience of living off the top ramen and working a part time job with a full time class load. Nor will students have to pick up massive debts. Students will be fed just as well any anyone else, they will not have to work alongside school, and they won't have the worry of debt. This means that everyone will get a chance to get the education that they need. It won't be about making money and living well, it will be about enjoying life. I am a student and not because I want money. I am a student because I want to do something that I'll love to do. As will everyone in a communist world, because what other motives will there be to distract us from what we want to make of our lives?

[Rafiq]

Inb4 shitty "THE SURPRISING SCIENCE OF WHAT MOTIVATES US" rsa animate bullshit.

I don't see there will be a problem of motivating workers... If you don't work hard, you won't get any cool shit like flying cars, is how I imagine it'll work.

Communism is not about everyone being equal. Total equality will not exist in communism.

Actually, the bourgeoisie are the ones who started that obscure and bizzare myth, that our goal is to make everyone equal.

Our goal is to abolish bourgeois society... Not much more to it.

[Renegade Saint]

Inb4 shitty "THE SURPRISING SCIENCE OF WHAT MOTIVATES US" rsa animate bullshit.

What's shitty about it? I happen to like good empirical research.

[Rafiq]

What's shitty about it? I happen to like good empirical research.

Because it's taken as if It's the only counter argument we have. It's over rated and it only applies to "creative jobs" like a programmer, rather then factory Jobs.

[Red Noob]

Communism is not about everyone being equal. Total equality will not exist in communism.

Rafiq makes a good point. The notion that communism tries to make everyone equal is open to interpretation. Equal in the sense we all wear blue overalls, live in 200 square foot dorms, receive the same amount of everything, ect. is simply false. Equal in political sense, where every worker has a say over their labor power, one could argue yes.

[¿Que?]

The capitalist system does not create incentives to do things like practice medicine, it creates barriers (as has been already mentioned). It may seem to intuitively make sense that highly paid professions draw in more interest, and that is to an extent true. But salaries and wages are only one variable in the equation. Looking at thing more broadly, there are the exorbitant school costs that play into making certain professions inaccessible to certain sectors of society. But more importantly, the argument ignores the plain and simple fact that doctor shortages exist under capitalism too! A truly egalitarian system would ensure that everyone is able to follow their chosen profession as well as guaranteeing that the public good and all of society's needs are met. Capitalism does a very poor job of this.

[Firebrand]

Inb4 shitty "THE SURPRISING SCIENCE OF WHAT MOTIVATES US" rsa animate bullshit.

I don't see there will be a problem of motivating workers... If you don't work hard, you won't get any cool shit like flying cars, is how I imagine it'll work.

Communism is not about everyone being equal. Total equality will not exist in communism.

Actually, the bourgeoisie are the ones who started that obscure and bizzare myth, that our goal is to make everyone equal.

Our goal is to abolish bourgeois society... Not much more to it.

You can stop banding that "our" around, its clear that we don't have even remotely similar aims.
I'm in it for total equality, there is something fundamentally wrong to my mind about one person having more than another for any reason.
If someone happens to be more talented or intelligent that does not somehow make them more deserving of the wonderful things and experiences available to us as human beings.
If someone happens to be more intelligent or better educted thats their good fortune, it does not make them any better as human beings and they should use those gifts to help those who don't have their advantages.

As for the "some people work harder and therefore deserve more" argument. How do you quantify that. By how much work they do, but for one person a task may be easy and require only minimal effort wheras for another it may be the hardest thing they have done in their life. If you judge contribution by effort how do you measure it, how do you quantify it? who has the right to quantify it? Its not a decision anyone can or should make. All human beings should have an equal right and equal access to all the things they want in life, without judgement or restrictions. Otherwise what are we fighting for?

[Renegade Saint]

Because it's taken as if It's the only counter argument we have. It's over rated and it only applies to "creative jobs" like a programmer, rather then factory Jobs.
You must have missed the part where the research says incentives are good for performance when it comes to manual labor like factory jobs. I suggest you watch it again.

I think it's helpful because the "creative jobs" are the ones that anti-socialists always argue will have no incentive to be done without the chance of massive financial rewards.

[Rafiq]

You must have missed the part where the research says incentives are good for performance when it comes to manual labor like factory jobs. I suggest you watch it again.

I think it's helpful because the "creative jobs" are the ones that anti-socialists always argue will have no incentive to be done without the chance of massive financial rewards.

Well that's common sense. If you're an artist just for the money then you're weak hearted and probably suck at what you do in the first place...

[Lanky Wanker]

Back to square one again lol. And calm down, you sound like you're steaming up your glasses over this.

Anyway, a number studies I've heard of have shown that money is not what primarily motivates people (even under good ol' capitalism), although it can demotivate people. Put studies aside though; the world itself is evidence of this in many areas of life. Also, I heard something about Cuba having the highest doctor to citizen ratio or whatever, and they don't exactly earn fortunes. If your doctor would honestly give up their job because they couldn't live in a fancy house and own an expensive car, that's kinda pathetic.

[Tovarisch]

Some people do not want to lift bricks and pour cement all their life. That's fine. That is why society offers jobs like being a doctor, for people who do not find pleasure in physical labor. If a construction worker gets paid the same as a doctor, then people who want work with physical activity can do so without being harmed financially.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

"Secretly capitalist" ...:rolleyes: ...yeah,hence why he wrote Capital and dedicated his life to anti-capitalism and socialist revolution.

[¿Que?]

"Secretly capitalist" ...:rolleyes: ...yeah,hence why he wrote Capital and dedicated his life to anti-capitalism and socialist revolution.
It's probably misunderstanding or misrepresenting how Marx considered capitalism progressive, when compared to the system that preceded it. From this, I gather, they conclude ZOMG Marx <3 Capitalism!!!!11!!

[Blake's Baby]

You can stop banding that "our" around, its clear that we don't have even remotely similar aims.
I'm in it for total equality, there is something fundamentally wrong to my mind about one person having more than another for any reason.
If someone happens to be more talented or intelligent that does not somehow make them more deserving of the wonderful things and experiences available to us as human beings.
If someone happens to be more intelligent or better educted thats their good fortune, it does not make them any better as human beings and they should use those gifts to help those who don't have their advantages...

You're really fundamentally misunderstanding what Rafiq is saying I think. And you sound like you support the idea of us all living in 25 square metres in our blue overalls. I'm sure that's not what you mean either, but saying 'I'm for total equality...', well, I've got bad eyesight, shall I come round to yours and ruin your eyes so we're equal comrade? Do you want my asthma while we're on (yup, fine specemin of humanity here)?

We're not all equal and we're not going to be, even after we institute a classless stateless society.


...As for the "some people work harder and therefore deserve more" argument. How do you quantify that...

Which Rafiq isn't saying. If we do not work for it, how will we create flying cars? If, instead, we all decide that communism means doing nothing, then nothing will happen. If we work together to create things, we can do incredible things. Seems pretty straightforward (and motivational) to me.

[Lanky Wanker]

"Secretly capitalist" ...:rolleyes: ...yeah,hence why he wrote Capital and dedicated his life to anti-capitalism and socialist revolution.

A lot of militant atheists get the same treatment. Homophobic homosexuals can be explained, but capitalist communists and atheist theists? We do live in a confusing world with all these strange paradoxes and whatnot. :rolleyes:

[Lanky Wanker]

If a construction worker gets paid the same as a doctor, then people who want work with physical activity can do so without being harmed financially.

That's exactly how I see it. Why should someone be paid differently according to what they want to do in life? As long as they put in the same effort, I don't see the problem.

[Renegade Saint]

Some people do not want to lift bricks and pour cement all their life. That's fine. That is why society offers jobs like being a doctor, for people who do not find pleasure in physical labor. If a construction worker gets paid the same as a doctor, then people who want work with physical activity can do so without being harmed financially.
What if not enough people want to do hard labor outside in the elements? (a very real possibility in my opinion)

[Blake's Baby]

If people don't build houses, houses don't get built. If only a few people want to build houses, and only a few houses get built, then yeah I suppose I'd be happy enough, in the beginning, if those that worked in construction were the first in the queue for housing, and those that said 'no my hands are too delicate and I might cough too much' went to the back of the queue. I can tell you, I'd offer to help rather than live in a tent, pathetic specimen as I am.

I wouldn't apply the same logic to food though.

[GatesofLenin]

Funny seeing this thread right now as I just learned that the CEO of JP Morgan Chase made over $10000 an hour this past year. So you're telling me that CEO work is more important than say a cancer researcher?

[Blake's Baby]

No, surely it's so much more unpopular than say, cleaning the sewers, that a sewer cleaner gets $7 an hour and a CEO gets $10,000 an hour. After all, who would rather play golf, sit in meetings, look at powerpoint presentations and go to restaurants in Japan, rather than crawl in a hole and shovel shit all day? I mean come on. Powerpoint presentations are horrible.

[Renegade Saint]

Funny seeing this thread right now as I just learned that the CEO of JP Morgan Chase made over $10000 an hour this past year. So you're telling me that CEO work is more important than say a cancer researcher?
Who is saying that? Pretty sure no one. Pretty sure we want to abolish CEOs actually.

People doing cancer research is a prime of example of groups I wouldn't mind having relatively more remuneration than average.

My problem with inequality in capitalism has never been the existence of any inequality in material goods per se, but that the inequality is obscenely great, that it's not consensual, and that the people receiving the most back from society are usually filling roles that are superfluous at best and usually downright destructive.

[Tovarisch]

What if not enough people want to do hard labor outside in the elements? (a very real possibility in my opinion)
Many kids prefer spending their time outside all day as opposed to school, so that may not be a problem

[Renegade Saint]

Many kids prefer spending their time outside all day as opposed to school, so that may not be a problem
Child labor-great idea Newt!

[Blake's Baby]

Again that's not what's being said, unless I'm really missing the point. I think Tovarisch is saying that some people like spending time outdoors, and some people prefer not to be, so maybe the idea that 'we'll all want to work behind a desk after the revolution because outdoors work is rough and hard' might be more to do with the majority of RevLefters being pale workshy nerds and not rugged manly outdoors types (even though these can be women too of course)... though I admit I've moved from paraphrase to sarcasm almost seemlessly there, please believe it's mostly self-depreciating.

[Tovarisch]

My point went over your head

I am absolutely against child labor. My point is that some people prefer doing things with their hands as opposed to doing calculations and spreadsheets in an office

[Ele'ill]

From what I understand a lot of doctors are in debt for a very long time. With this said, there must be something else motivating them other than money (actually, even considering the money) to go through all that school.

[Red Noob]

My point is that some people prefer doing things with their hands as opposed to doing calculations and spreadsheets in an office

Gah, the idea of working in a cubical nine hours a day or in an office pushing papers makes my spine cringe. Humans weren't meant for that kind of lifestyle. I want to work my hands and get dirty. My gardening and wood working hobbies won't suffice much longer.

[Blake's Baby]

Cool. You get to be first in the queue in my municipal utopia, yay! for you with your nice self-made house, yah boo sucks to you other pasty-fasced RevLeft nerds, I helped Red Noob so I get a house too (just, further down the list, cough cough).

I know this sounds sarcastic, but it's not, I'm in the UK so I'm drunk (it being 1.23am in 2012 already).

"Happy Noo Year!" in a fake Russian-cum-New York accent for some reason I'm not quite sure of.

[Strannik]

I think it's important not to mix up monetary price of labour ("wage"), which is rewarded and exchanged in a capitalist society and average social labour amount which is exchanged in early socialist economy. It's hard not to mix these up in these discussions.

Currently my understanding is, that the idea of Marx was to remunerate (right word?) to each according to their social contribution and the average labour time would be the basic measure for doing so.

The question is then, why educate yourself at all and why choose a highly responsible job like doctor's.

One answer is of course, that if you train yourself your productivity increases. In the amount of time an untrained worker creates one unit of commodity, you can create two. Thus your input has been (let's say) two hours of average labour time, while his was only one.

I also believe that jobs that require long years of training generally give you a very high level of social productivity. Thus a doctor might work less time overall compared to a truck loader (but what if we give truck loader robotic help?). But I'm not sure if socialism takes into account all work when comparing average social productivity or only similar kinds of work.

Of course, a doctor's job has other benefits too. You can make a living helping people, you can work with your hands and mind etc. (compared to someone who digs trenches). So I think there's in doctor's job a combination of high productivity, high social prestige and certain work conditions that appeal to a certain kind of people.

[Firebrand]

I think that the conception of work here being used is quite rigid. Surely in a more rational society people wouldn't have to do the same job all the time? I mean I wouldn't want to do hard outdoor labour all the time but I also wouldn't want to spend my whole life behind a desk. Or even my whole life painting and drawing and stuff. Peoples moods vary and nearly everyone feels like doing most things at some point in their life. Somethimes people really can't face doing a job that requires lots of thought because they have too much else on their minds so they go and glue together bits on a production line for the day. Sometimes people feel full of pent up energy and so they can go and do something like building work for the day. Other times people want to do something that requires lots of concentration and thought so they could go and do software engineering and stuff for the day.
I think its highly likely that the weather would have a bigger impact on work under this system. I doubt many people want to work outside in the pouring rain, and most people I know hate being stuck inside at their desks on a lovely summer day. So we could get the practical stuff done in the summer and then spend the winter catching up with the admin.

[Strannik]

Actually yes, come to think of it, job specialization is not characteristic to socialistic economy. Then "currency" of socialism is simply human lifetime spent productively and what is productively spent time is determined socially. So, to oversimplify, when society needs to dig trenches, digging trences gives you average labor time to spend and being a doctor does not. And when people are sick, its the opposite. And its constantly changing according to social preferences. :confused:

[danyboy27]

I dont know what the future will be made of, but i think we should encourage peoples to do what they really want to in order to increase productivity.

Doing something you like is probably one of the best incentive a person could have, its when someone do something he hate that this person truly need motivation outside of their work.

On a societal level, filling the blank in society fabric could be done trought advertising and information session, guided visit of the workplaces and so on to allow the people to perhaps explore that field, it would be a good method to be sure critical field of expertise like medecine get its fair share of recruit.

has i said earlier, the real shitty work is the one that would need some kind of incentives, and automatisation could virtually make most of the shitty work gone. i am not a utopist tho, and i am willing to aknowledge that some dirty work would still need human contribution, that the kind of work that would need some form of incentive.

[Blake's Baby]

How about we all just volunteer to spend a couple of days a month cleaning up shit, because we're adults, and we know shit needs to get cleaned up? Lots of people do that now, it shouldn't be too hard to get people to realise that if we want a better world we have to put in some work for it.

[Buttress]

You're really fundamentally misunderstanding what Rafiq is saying I think. And you sound like you support the idea of us all living in 25 square metres in our blue overalls. I'm sure that's not what you mean either, but saying 'I'm for total equality...', well, I've got bad eyesight, shall I come round to yours and ruin your eyes so we're equal comrade? Do you want my asthma while we're on (yup, fine specemin of humanity here)?

We're not all equal and we're not going to be, even after we institute a classless stateless society.


You've got bad eyesight, here's eye surgery. Equality wins again!

[Blake's Baby]

You've got bad eyesight, here's eye surgery. Equality wins again!

Yay! Thank socialism, I can see again!

Really, that's cool, but I don't think even in principle we can have total equality. That's not to say that we should accept inequality but crude 'social levelling' is really not the point. I'm pretty sure that's not what you were advocating (I hope that's not what you were advocating), but I still think you were misunderstanding Rafiq.

[Sputnik_1]

What should motivate people is their passion for a certain activity/job and the recognition and appreciation from others. I'm studying game design and nonetheless I know that creative sector is pretty competitive and I might end up waiting tables for the rest of my life, screw it! I do it cause I love it, even if it stays just my personal hobby (just like graphic novels) I'll be happy to at least try.

[Buttress]

Yay! Thank socialism, I can see again!

Really, that's cool, but I don't think even in principle we can have total equality. That's not to say that we should accept inequality but crude 'social levelling' is really not the point. I'm pretty sure that's not what you were advocating (I hope that's not what you were advocating), but I still think you were misunderstanding Rafiq.

Maybe not forcible "social levelling" but I can see the playing field will sort of level itself out under communism without the need to enforce it.

[Blake's Baby]

In which case I think we're pretty much in agreement and only getting tied up with words... I think I'm in agreement with Rafiq as well, though, and if you think you're not, we're obviously all floating around with different ideas about what we're all saying.

Sometimes it's the being clear about what we mean that's the hardest thing.