On This Day: 1922, USSR is formed

[00000000000]

So, 89 years ago today the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was formally created.
Not the most original topic, could go in any number of directions, but thought it was interesting.

[Arlekino]

I am still crying of destruction of Soviet Union and this will be carry me until my death. Sad to see young people cleaning the streets, teachers, doctors and workers lost respect.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The treaty was a tragic mistake.

[Psy]

The treaty was a tragic mistake.
The treaty that created the USSR?

Some treaty was needed across what was the empire of Russia to form some body.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Did you read my earlier thread "The greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century"? Lenin wanted that treaty to be the USSR, while Stalin wanted that treaty to be a larger RSFSR.

[Psy]

^^^ Did you read my earlier thread "The greatest geopolitical disaster of the 20th century"? Lenin wanted that treaty to be the USSR, while Stalin wanted that treaty to be a larger RSFSR.
That would have led to yet another civil-war as the ethnic regions would have seen it as Russification of minorities within Russia. The only way forward was to get all the different ethnic groups of Russia to collaborate without minorities felling they will be assimilated.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I'm not sure. In Stalin's plan, the Ukraine, Belarus, and the Transcaucasian republics would have been Autonomous Republics, like the Bashkir, Buryat, Crimean, Karelian, Komi, Tatar, and Yakut republics. In the past, all of Turkestan was an Autonomous Republic.

[Psy]

I'm not sure. In Stalin's plan, the Ukraine, Belarus, and the Transcaucasian republics would have been Autonomous Republics, like the Bashkir, Buryat, Crimean, Karelian, Komi, Tatar, and Yakut republics. In the past, all of Turkestan was an Autonomous Republic.
This confuses nationality with statehood, it doesn't address the national question that in these states are many nations.

[Die Neue Zeit]

What Stalin argued was that the major nationalities were no different from a number of the smaller ones. One inconsistency in the USSR should be pointed out from the beginning: why did Mongolia not join, even as Jiang Jieshi and his thugs repressed the CPC?

[Prometeo liberado]

I am still crying of destruction of Soviet Union and this will be carry me until my death. Sad to see young people cleaning the streets, teachers, doctors and workers lost respect.

Seems as though with every passing year the once Great Soviet Union turns into more a myth rather than the grand human endeavor that it was and could return to being one day.So maybe with this new year we could look forward to a day when there are no myths, only shining examples of socialist civilizations standing the test of time. Happy New Year:thumbup1:
And thank you history for those 89 years that spoke of the possibility for a different world, thank you.

[Psy]

What Stalin argued was that the major nationalities were no different from a number of the smaller ones.

The problem is giving smaller nationalities the means to continue to exist as a culture.



One inconsistency in the USSR should be pointed out from the beginning: why did Mongolia not join, even as Jiang Jieshi and his thugs repressed the CPC?
What would the USSR offer Mongolia? The USSR lacked the industrial base to modernize Mongolia.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ How's that different from the Russian Far East or the Central Asian republics south of Kazakhstan? The former, for instance, is further distant than Mongolia.

In terms of smaller nationalities continuing to exist as a culture, are you suggesting that Soviet patriotism and the "Soviet nation" concept, even if devoid of Great Russian allusions, were reactionary?

[Psy]

^^^ How's that different from the Russian Far East or the Central Asian republics south of Kazakhstan? The former, for instance, is further distant than Mongolia.

That Mongolia had a stronger nationalism that contradicted being Russian.



In terms of smaller nationalities continuing to exist as a culture, are you suggesting that Soviet patriotism and the "Soviet nation" concept, even if devoid of Great Russian allusions, were reactionary?
Well it planted the seeds of the delusion of socialism in one country, with Russian nationalism being a replacement for proletarian internationalism. That is wasn't about co-prosperity among the various regions of the old Russian Empire, it was about prosperity of the old Russian Empire in a new form.

[The Dark Side of the Moon]

Hopefully it's not too long when there are two dates for this:)

[Ismail]

The Soviet nationalities policy worked quite well up until the end when bourgeois nationalism was legalized via Glasnost. DNZ is, like usual, talking out of his ass and trying to make a "this is what the USSR should have done" fantasy in his head. The policies of Lenin and Stalin were pursued precisely because they ensured the unity of all the peoples of the former Russian Empire and because they ensured not just cultural autonomy, but also the relative flourishing of a great many smaller cultures.

Also the "Soviet nation" concept wasn't really spoken of until the 70's.

Mongolia wasn't made a part of the USSR for two reasons:
1. It wasn't a part of the Russian Empire, so it had no basis to be annexed or integrated into the USSR (compare this to western Ukraine and western Byelorussia which were annexed to Poland, and Bessarabia which was annexed to Romania). It had also been de facto independent since 1911.
2. China strongly disputed Mongolia's independence, and it wasn't until the victory of the CCP that China recognized the Mongolian People's Republic as independent.

Stalin did supposedly bring up the subject of Mongolia joining the USSR together with the Tuvan People's Republic, but Tuva was both much smaller and had since pre-revolutionary times a sizable Russian population within it. It also had no real viable existence as its own country.

[Omsk]

Tuvan People's Republic, but Tuva was both much smaller and had since pre-revolutionary times a sizable Russian population within it. It also had no real viable existence as its own country.

Now that you mention Tuva,the small state was always interesting to me,and i just recently got a book about it,so i may open a thread about it.

And regarding Tuva,it did join the USSR,but it was not some kind of a violent anexation,Salchak Toka actually demanded it,and it the question was brought up on the parliament.The history of Tuva is quite unknown to many people,and it shouldnt be.

The USSR respected the independance of Mongolia,and in turn,Mongolia was a loyal ally of the USSR,although it had some expansionist goals,which were later abandoned.However,the USSR rather than getting Mongolia into the USSR helped the country with infrastructure,building roads,bridges,improving literacy,and a process of collectivization,improving the vital communication lines and more.

[Ismail]

Mongolia actually claimed at first that Tuva was Mongolian, which the Bolshevik leadership didn't agree with and had to put down pro-Mongol peasant rebellions in Tuva in the early 20's. Then in 1925 a land deal was signed wherein Tuva gave a bit of land (Darkhad Valley) to the Mongols in exchange for both countries recognizing each other.

Then in the 30's Tuva proclaimed itself a basically bourgeois state and proceeded to decollectivize and such, which ended with the Great Purges.

[Omsk]

Then in the 30's Tuva proclaimed itself a basically bourgeois state and proceeded to decollectivize and such, which ended with the Great Purges.

But that was only under the reign on Donduk Kuular,who abandoned the path of socialist development and introduced religion,himself a former monk.And,yes,as you pointed out,he also abandoned the process of collectivization.He also tried to get closer to Mongolia,and abandon the USSR,which was one of the reasons he was removed from power.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The policies of Lenin and Stalin were pursued precisely because they ensured the unity of all the peoples of the former Russian Empire and because they ensured not just cultural autonomy, but also the relative flourishing of a great many smaller cultures.

There are many forms of "bourgeois nationalism." There is also Balkanization. Cultural autonomy /= being geopolitically defined.


Also the "Soviet nation" concept wasn't really spoken of until the 70's.

What about during WWII?


Mongolia wasn't made a part of the USSR for two reasons:
1. It wasn't a part of the Russian Empire, so it had no basis to be annexed or integrated into the USSR (compare this to western Ukraine and western Byelorussia which were annexed to Poland, and Bessarabia which was annexed to Romania). It had also been de facto independent since 1911.
2. China strongly disputed Mongolia's independence, and it wasn't until the victory of the CCP that China recognized the Mongolian People's Republic as independent.

Did the opinion of those who butchered the pre-Mao workers movement and engaged in civil war with Mao's CCP matter so much?

[As an aside, I am of the opinion that the Soviet space was capable of being larger in Central Asia as well as the Far East. Today's Uygur problem in China could be attributed to the lack of earlier unity with the rest of Central Asia while China was fractured between the Japanese occupation, the Jiang-era GMD, and the CCP.]

[Ismail]

What about during WWII?Nope. "Soviet nation" during that period and during the 30's was just a shorthand for all the nationalities in the USSR.


Did the opinion of those who butchered the pre-Mao workers movement and engaged in civil war with Mao's CCP matter so much?Yes, especially during WWII when the Allies weren't too fond of a CCP victory. But even before Chiang's rise there was still China under Sun Yat-sen, who also considered Mongolia to be Chinese territory (the Russian Empire was taking advantage of factionalism in China to obtain power over Mongolia pre-1917) until 1923 when he was willing to work more closely with the Soviets and thus began changing his views.


[As an aside, I am of the opinion that the Soviet space was capable of being larger in Central Asia as well as the Far East. Today's Uygur problem in China could be attributed to the lack of earlier unity with the rest of Central Asia while China was fractured.]A number of Kazakhs in Xinjiang in the 40's were interested in joining the USSR, although I haven't heard such things about the Uighurs.