Cuba [Archive] - RevLeft

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 16:16

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 03:54 PM
I guess maybe people portray Fidel as authoritative, threatening democracy (?) :huh:

Seeing as I'm probably the only REAL CUBAN on this board that has actually DEALT with the communist Island and has lived there, I'll post MY thoughts!

As for Castro being PERCEIVED as being "authoritative? Well, lets see....my uncle was BEHEADED by the castro regime. He was railroaded and used as the scapegoat for something the communist government did, but did not want leaking out. My father was jailed for speaking his mind, and oh yeah I almost forgot....EVERYTHING my parents worked long and hard for was TAKEN AWAY FORCEFULLY by the communist regime. Living from ration card to ration card....and slowly watching the TRUE BEAUTIFUL cuba slowly DISINTEGRATE under communist rule. Prostitution, corruption, poverty, dirty streets, etc...all this while Fidel lives in a mansion...Yeah, you're right..the United States IS the one keeping Cuba down! :blink:

Hey, I'd say now IS the perfect time to go to cuba and visit. Knock yourself out. Just don't talk bad about the government out loud, check you rooms for bugs, and watch out who you speak to. Hey I hope you have a GREAT time! :angry:

Le LibÃ©rer

22nd November 2003, 16:24

Hey Castro_sucks, where do you live now?

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 16:34

Originally posted by Debora [email protected] 22 2003, 05:24 PM
Hey Castro_sucks, where do you live now?
In the land of the FREE!! Where I'm NOT subjected to persecution for speaking my mind! Where none of my friends are hauled away for speaking out against tyranny and communism! Where I get to KEEP what I work hard for! How's THAT for starters?Where do YOU live hon? I DO hope you live IN Cuba...the way you guys speak about it, I only HOPE you guys aren't hypocrits by living somewhere else. Afterall, people that admire something (be it an island, ideology, etc) should be close to what they love.

Intifada

22nd November 2003, 16:37

In the land of the FREE!! Where I'm NOT subjected to persecution for speaking my mind!

i hope you dont mean usa. have you ever heard of whats happening to sherman austin?

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 16:40

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 05:37 PM

In the land of the FREE!! Where I'm NOT subjected to persecution for speaking my mind!

i hope you dont mean usa. have you ever heard of whats happening to sherman austin?
Comrade "Ihatebush" do you realize that in cuba, you'd already be dead for using your username alone. God knows what they would do to you for quoting Zach De La Rocha.

Soul Rebel

22nd November 2003, 16:42

cuba still is a beautiful country- i saw it first hand so i can tell you honestly that it is. i never saw a country so beautiful or met so many wonderful people in my life.

and it is the us keeping cuba down with the embargo and all. and fidel is not a bad man. he is a caring man who wants nothing but the best for the cuban people. the only people who think he is a bad man is the media and you (if you really are cuban) US/miami cubans who just want to oust castro because you were the rich of cuba. You people are the ones hurting cuba, not castro.

Intifada

22nd November 2003, 16:47

fidel castro has to be given credit for what he has achieved, such as the highest literacy rate in south america, after taking into perspective what the us embargo has done.

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 16:48

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 05:42 PM
cuba still is a beautiful country- i saw it first hand so i can tell you honestly that it is. i never saw a country so beautiful or met so many wonderful people in my life.

and it is the us keeping cuba down with the embargo and all. and fidel is not a bad man. he is a caring man who wants nothing but the best for the cuban people.
Then WHY don't YOU live there young one? I did... Are you saying that I'm the only one that has actually lived there? Am I the only one that has seen BEHIND the tourist trappings? Am I the only one that has experienced the sting of Castro's true nature? My dear...my young lost child....open your eyes. I'll take you through the real streets of Cuba...the Cuba most dont want to/can't see. I'll also pass you by the PALACE that your "wonderful" man castro lives in while his people waste away their lives in misery. Hey it reminds me of someone else the US just got through defeating... Mass graves anyone?

nezvanova

22nd November 2003, 16:50

CATRO_SUCKS: I'll wait and see for myself. I take what you say into consideration, but I don't blindly belive it. For allw e know, you're just some right-winger who's trying to turn our opinions all around. I'm not saying you are, it's just a possibility.

Soul Rebel

22nd November 2003, 16:50

thats right- fidels cuba also has the best medical system, which has been recognized world-wide. And for such an evil man, fidel has spent years sending doctors to many countries of africa to help with the HIV/AIDS epidemic.

Intifada

22nd November 2003, 16:52

Soul Rebel

22nd November 2003, 16:57

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Nov 22 2003, 05:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Nov 22 2003, 05:48 PM)
[email protected] 22 2003, 05:42 PM
cuba still is a beautiful country- i saw it first hand so i can tell you honestly that it is. i never saw a country so beautiful or met so many wonderful people in my life.

and it is the us keeping cuba down with the embargo and all. and fidel is not a bad man. he is a caring man who wants nothing but the best for the cuban people.
Then WHY don't YOU live there young one? I did... Are you saying that I'm the only one that has actually lived there? Am I the only one that has seen BEHIND the tourist trappings? Am I the only one that has experienced the sting of Castro's true nature? My dear...my young lost child....open your eyes. I'll take you through the real streets of Cuba...the Cuba most dont want to/can't see. I'll also pass you by the PALACE that your "wonderful" man castro lives in while his people waste away their lives in misery. Hey it reminds me of someone else the US just got through defeating... Mass graves anyone? [/b]
Listen asshole- when you talk to me use some fucking respect, i gave you that much in my first post. Dont call me a child, considering i am not one. You wanted someone to answer your stupid fucking question and when someone does, with the answer you were not expecting, you reply with a dickish attitude. Im not here to fucking play games, if you want a serious discussion then fine, but dont fucking undermine me or what i have to say.

And before you start making assumptions about where i was in cuba or what i saw, why dont you ask? I didnt stay at touristy places nor did i see only touristy things- i went into what you would call "real" cuba. i saw it all, so dont fucking tell me i missed the reall thing.

and how dare you compare saddam to castro. obviously shows you know nothing about castro or even cuba.

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 16:59

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 05:50 PM
....fidel has spent years sending doctors to many countries of africa to help with the HIV/AIDS epidemic.
You're right...including those two that defected to the U.S. not to long ago. Yeah...wonderful system.

Intifada

22nd November 2003, 17:02

castro_sucks, i suppose you would rather cuba to have been ruled by batista?

Soul Rebel

22nd November 2003, 17:04

of course, that way he would have benefitted from it. only wants to be rich, typical american.

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 17:04

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 05:57 PM

Listen asshole- when you talk to me use some fucking respect, i gave you that much in my first post. Dont call me a child, considering i am not one. You wanted someone to answer your stupid fucking question and when someone does, with the answer you were not expecting, you reply with a dickish attitude. Im not here to fucking play games, if you want a serious discussion then fine, but dont fucking undermine me or what i have to say.
Wow...such an "educated" response from you. You must be proud to come back with such a "convincing argument". you sure put me in MY place. Little child...Most educated people don't use foul language unless they're unsure of themselves. I think you've just proven your "conviction".

FistFullOfSteel

22nd November 2003, 17:12

i never been to cuba,but i going there in some years with some friends :)

Soul Rebel

22nd November 2003, 17:13

I gave you the response you gave me- you underminded me, i underminded you.

Youre right- im not educated because i swear. Thats some logical thinking. I guess these two degrees i have are really nothing because i used some foul language. Get over it you uptight fool.

Youre not any better- you may not be swearing, but your not making any points either. Your argument are full of bs and are made to antagonize. At least i got stuff to back me up.

you want a debate, i will give you one- it'll shut you right up.

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 17:13

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 05:50 PM
CATRO_SUCKS: I'll wait and see for myself. I take what you say into consideration, but I don't blindly belive it. For allw e know, you're just some right-winger who's trying to turn our opinions all around. I'm not saying you are, it's just a possibility.
Nezvanova:You may just be the most educated, polite and open-minded individual to respond so far. I thank you for the response.

If you're going to Cuba, please remember to keep your eyes AND your mind wide open. Its a WHOLE different world when you're actually there. The poverty, the prostitution, the hopelessness of those stuck in the middle. I hear the tourist areas are nice. But you owe it to yourself (if but just to prove that people like me are full of crap) to walk into the other areas of cuba..the areas with all the poverty (95%) and not just Havana either. If your own eyes don't convince you, you can come back and tell me I'm full of crap (or not).

Look, I'm not here to convince ANYONE that doesn't want to be convinced of anything. Thats an impossibility. But I will say this...if you believe in something...you talk FREELY about it. Maybe we can BOTH learn something. Good luck and thanks for the open-mindedness.

FistFullOfSteel

22nd November 2003, 17:15

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Nov 22 2003, 06:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Nov 22 2003, 06:13 PM)
[email protected] 22 2003, 05:50 PM
CATRO_SUCKS: I'll wait and see for myself. I take what you say into consideration, but I don't blindly belive it. For allw e know, you're just some right-winger who's trying to turn our opinions all around. I'm not saying you are, it's just a possibility.
If you're going to Cuba, please remember to keep your eyes AND your mind wide open. Its a WHOLE different world when you're actually there. I'm not here to convince ANYONE that doesn't want to be convinced of anything. Thats an impossibility. but I will say this...if you believe in something...you talk FREELY about it. Maybe we can BOTH learn something. good luck and thanks for the open-mindedness. [/b]
why didnt u like cuba?its because u cant speak freely?

FistFullOfSteel

22nd November 2003, 17:16

Originally posted by RAGING [email protected] 17 2003, 07:46 PM
Kill him hugo. You will be the most popular guy at school...
like u?you are my idol

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 17:21

Originally posted by SenoraChe+Nov 22 2003, 06:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SenoraChe @ Nov 22 2003, 06:13 PM) you underminded me, i underminded you. [/b] My dear....you have undermined NOBODY but yourself. You're credibility is shot ALREADY!

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 06:13 PM
I guess these two degrees i have are really nothing because i used some foul language. Your argument are full of bs and are made to antagonize. At least i got stuff to back me up. I've seen the dumbest people hold a few degrees. You're "credentials" are of no consequence here. Just proof that money can BUY an "education". You better pay some more.

[email protected] 22 2003, 06:13 PM
you want a debate, i will give you one- it'll shut you right up. Then by all means, I welcome a debate! All the WORDS in your fantasy world won't stack up against my REAL LIFE, REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE little one. Run along honey..you're quarter is up!

FistFullOfSteel

22nd November 2003, 17:29

what the hell answer my question

Invader Zim

22nd November 2003, 17:32

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Nov 22 2003, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Nov 22 2003, 06:04 PM)
[email protected] 22 2003, 05:57 PM

Listen asshole- when you talk to me use some fucking respect, i gave you that much in my first post. Dont call me a child, considering i am not one. You wanted someone to answer your stupid fucking question and when someone does, with the answer you were not expecting, you reply with a dickish attitude. Im not here to fucking play games, if you want a serious discussion then fine, but dont fucking undermine me or what i have to say.
Wow...such an "educated" response from you. You must be proud to come back with such a "convincing argument". you sure put me in MY place. Little child...Most educated people don't use foul language unless they're unsure of themselves. I think you've just proven your "conviction". [/b]
How long have you been in the land of the free? Well mate Ive been a few times, cant say I liked it that much... climates too hot, etc. I live in the land of the free's little brother, the UK. I imagine thats its fairly similar, from what I saw at least... you only see middle class suberbia I guess. You want to see the real Britain and US...: -

"Prostitution, corruption, poverty, dirty streets, etc..."

sounds like a great description of London if you ask me.

Want to know what the land of the free does to other countrys? It exploits them and does this: -

http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/safrican.elections/stories/economy/slums.jpg

Maybe you should learn why you live such an afluent lifestyle in the USA, and how others have to live to support that existance.

Bolshevika

22nd November 2003, 17:32

"Castro Sucks" You are a right-wing, heartless imperialist capitalist scum.

Go back to fucking Miami and vote for President Bush.

I bet you want Cuba to go back to what it used to be ? (Batista was so great. Black people had to work in sugar cane fields by default! Dyslexics were considered inferior! The United States owned 60% of Cuba!) I bet all of your relatives were Batistaites.

You may be Cuban, but I doubt you have any real knowlege of Cuba. Do you want Cuba to become another Peru or Brazil ? I bet so. I don't know why Fidel spared Batistaites like yourself, if I were him I would've executed all of you pieces of trash the second I got into power. You are a subhuman yankee traitor.

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 17:34

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 06:15 PM
why didnt u like cuba?its because u cant speak freely?
Something about watching my uncle get dragged away by castro's thugs and killed 2 weeks later without a trial. Something about my father being jailed for 5 years because he spoke out against castro (EVEN THOUGH he fought alongside him in the Sierra Maestra mountain range AGAINST Batista)! Also the fact that everything we owned was suddenly taken away with 20 minutes to collect our belongings before they locked our house up and turned it into a government office.

FistFullOfSteel

22nd November 2003, 17:35

whats is ur fathers name?

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 17:37

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 06:32 PM
I bet all of your relatives were Batistaites.

Ok, if you won't read everything IN my posts...then don't bother responding! Lets see, my father FOUGHT the Batista government, so I guess that makes him a Batista supporter? Yeah..thats good logic there COMRADE!

Soul Rebel

22nd November 2003, 17:37

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Nov 22 2003, 06:21 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Nov 22 2003, 06:21 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 06:13 PM
you underminded me, i underminded you. My dear....you have undermined NOBODY but yourself. You're credibility is shot ALREADY!

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 06:13 PM
I guess these two degrees i have are really nothing because i used some foul language. Your argument are full of bs and are made to antagonize. At least i got stuff to back me up. I've seen the dumbest people hold a few degrees. You're "credentials" are of no consequence here. Just proof that money can BUY an "education". You better pay some more.

[email protected] 22 2003, 06:13 PM
you want a debate, i will give you one- it'll shut you right up. Then by all means, I welcome a debate! All the WORDS in your fantasy world won't stack up against my REAL LIFE, REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE little one. Run along honey..you're quarter is up! [/b]
see- this is exactly what im talking about. you keep insulting me. you try to make yourself look like youre all high and mighty, while insulting me at the same time!!! if anything you are the one that is appearing to be low and uneducated. Why dont you try to use some actual facts in your arguement?

maybe if you had spent more than half an hour total on the forum you would realize i have a lot of credibility. maybe you should check out my posts before you make assumptions.

yes, dumb people do have degrees, but i am not in that class. i earned my degrees- i put a lot of work and years into them, i did not buy them.

once again, before you make assumptions about me, why dont you try to learn who i really am. im sure you are the only person to have any experience in the real world (sarcasim in case you didnt notice)....

i dont even know why im bothering with you... your whole purpose of being here is to get a rise of people...

you are just pissed because you wanted someone to have gone to cuba and then agree with you, to say how horrible it is and since i went and dont agree you're pissed....get over it. we dont all have to agree on the same things.

Bolshevika

22nd November 2003, 17:43

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Nov 22 2003, 06:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Nov 22 2003, 06:37 PM)
[email protected] 22 2003, 06:32 PM
I bet all of your relatives were Batistaites.

Ok, if you won't read everything IN my posts...then don't bother responding! Lets see, my father FOUGHT the Batista government, so I guess that makes him a Batista supporter? Yeah..thats good logic there COMRADE! [/b]
So, you didn't answer IHB's question: would you support Batista over Fidel?

You fascists obviously hate Fidel. But I know many Cuban-American's who love him, and would go back if the economy was not in depression.

In the last 10 years of economic depression, Fidel's government has not closed down one hospital, library, or school. I wonder if there were even libraries under Batista.

I have many friends from Latin America who have gone to study medicine in Cuba on a free scholarship. Many of them were poor and this gave them the chance to make something of their lives.

dopediana

22nd November 2003, 17:44

here is an excerpt from the book "upside down" by eduardo galeano. living in the states and reading censored media, i strongly doubt you will read anything giving cuba credit for bettering the world. all you hear of is defections and civil rights infringements.

The Blue Stone

Goiânia City, Brazil, September 1987: two ragpickers find a metal tube in an empty lot. They break it open and discover a stone of blue light, a magic stone that turns the air blue and makes everything it touches shine. The ragpickers break up that stone of light. They give peices to their neigbors. Whoever rubs it on his skin shines in the night. The entire barrio is a lamp. The poor, suddenly rich in light, celebrate.

The next day the ragpickers start vomiting. They had eaten mango with coconut-- that must be why. But the whole neighborhood is vomiting and swelling up and itching. The blue light burns and devours and kills, and it spreads, carried by wind, rain, flies, and birds.

It was one of the greatest nuclear catastrophes in history. Many people died and many mroe were maimed for life. In that shanty-town on the edge of Goiânia, no one knew what the word "radioactivity" meant, and no one had ever heard of Cesium-137. Chernobyl, just the year before, resounded daily in the ears of the world. Of Goiânia, not a word. In 1992, Cuba took in the sick children of Goiânia and gave them free medical care. This event did not merit the slightest coverage either, even though the global factories of public opinion are always, as we know, very concerned about Cuba.

A month after the tragedy, the chief of the federal police in Goiás summed it up: "The situation is absurd. No one is responsible for the radioactive substances used in medicine."

oh, and CASTRO_SUCKS, was your family one of those rich plantation owning families who underpaid, overworked, and exploited their workers? or were they the very fucking heart of the proletariat?

well, either way, go fuck yourself.

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 17:44

Senorache:I'm don'e reading your posts. You've lost what little credibility you had. I won't waste my time reading nor responding to your insignificant, vulgar posts. so, don't waste your time.

Hugo:Whats it to you what my father's name is? Who are you, the CIA?

Le LibÃ©rer

22nd November 2003, 17:45

I'll agree with "I want to see for myself" As I plan to visit Cuba myself.

Castro_sucks, all I can say is, I really dont think you are going to change anyones way of thinking here. I know Cuba is not perfect. ( Neither is the US, ask one of those homeless ppl on the streets of NYC about human rights.) I have heard some extreme stories (Propaganda from both sides) I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

All I know is, I feel a bond to Cuba, its there, and I want to see why.

FistFullOfSteel

22nd November 2003, 17:46

how old are u?

Ortega

22nd November 2003, 17:50

Give Castro_Sucks a break. He has a point. Things like what happened to his uncle and his father really do happen in Cuba. You can see it happening all the time - formerly great Cuban generals who fought with Castro like Guitterez, Mato, etc. etc. going to jail and sometimes being killed for no reason whatsoever. Personally, I am still a Castro supporter. He is an amazing leader, and he started off with good ideas, many of which he still posseses. Even Castro_Sucks might agree with that. His father agreed at least, if he fought with Fidel.
But Castro, like anyone else, has faults. Major faults. He's paranoid and he has anyone with any power or support whatsoever jailed or killed. He doesn't like it when people speak out against him - thus his fear of free speech.
Even as a Castro supporter, I can agree with Castro_Sucks on many things. Hopefully he has an open mind, and so will all of you at Che-Lives.
Castro_Sucks, what do you think about el Che?

Hasta la victoria siempre!

-Comrade_Zapata

EDIT: Castro_Sucks, your signature wont help your popularity at Che-Lives very much... <_<

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 17:57

Originally posted by Debora [email protected] 22 2003, 06:45 PM
I'll agree with "I want to see for myself" As I plan to visit Cuba myself.

Castro_sucks, all I can say is, I really dont think you are going to change anyones way of thinking here. I know Cuba is not perfect. ( Neither is the US, ask one of those homeless ppl on the streets of NYC about human rights.) I have heard some extreme stories (Propaganda from both sides) I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

All I know is, I feel a bond to Cuba, its there, and I want to see why.
Yes...another INTELLIGENT, well-though-out, open-minded and non-vulgar response! you catch more bees with honey, I tell ya.

You're absolutely right. Many parts of the US are filthy, rife with crime, corruption, etc. But the thing is that there are systems in place that people can utilize to better themselves WITHOUT having to serve the government afterwards.

You and I know I'm not going to change ANYONE's mind here! But it is refreshing knowing that you even acknowledge that the truth may lie somewhere in the middle, without resorting to vulgarities, and non-sensical ravings.

I, too, have a bond with cuba (obviously), but my closure will come when that island is finally free and independant (from us OR communist rule). Thanks for the intellectual response. Good luck with your trip.

Bolshevika

22nd November 2003, 17:57

Comrade Zapata: You are incorrect. There are currently many Miami mafia "pro-democracy"/U.S. puppets who are anti-Castro residing in Havanna. Saying Castro "limits" speech is definetly a bourgeois exagerration.

And if he did limit the speech of members of the Miami mafia, I would have no problem with it at all. You republican counter-revolutionary worms ought to be grateful that Castro let's you defect to America.

Ortega

22nd November 2003, 18:06

I am in no way in support of the Miami Mafia. Theyre traitorous rich spoiled worms.
But there has to be someone else here whos not completely brainwashed by propaganda from either side. Castro is not perfect!!! He's only a human being and he has many errors. Che would not approve of the things he has done in recent years, or even many of the things he has done since the revolution. I know that Che was unhappy and suspicious about General Mato's false trial several years after the revolution. Mato had been a commander under Castro, but had begun to become too powerful, and Castro put him on trial, a completely unfair trial too, and Mato was sentenced to 20 years in prison. This sort of thing happens often in Castro's Cuba. Am I the only one who realizes this?!? It is not an exxageration of the media. The Granma even reports it sometimes, with Castro's spin on it of course.

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 18:15

Ok ok....NOW I'm getting to the cream of this place!! I KNEW this place couldn't all be full of uneducated, vulgar kids. Now we can speak like humans...adults!
Comrade Zapata: Another informed, educated individual.

Originally posted by Comrade_Zapata+Nov 22 2003, 06:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Comrade_Zapata @ Nov 22 2003, 06:50 PM) Give Castro_Sucks a break. He has a point. Things like what happened to his uncle and his father really do happen in Cuba. You can see it happening all the time - formerly great Cuban generals who fought with Castro like Guitterez, Mato, etc. etc. going to jail and sometimes being killed for no reason whatsoever. [/b]
You, sir, are wise!

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 06:50 PM
Personally, I am still a Castro supporter. He is an amazing leader, and he started off with good ideas, many of which he still posseses. Even Castro_Sucks might agree with that. His father agreed at least, if he fought with Fidel.
Actually my dad praised castro at the beginning. He hailed him as the saviour of cuba! My father and my mother met at the plaza de la revolucion when castro came down from the Sierra Maestra and declared cuba liberated. My father was in the parade! But alas, things started taking an ugly turn though. I think greed reared its ugly head. You know what they say about absolute power. As much as I dislike the man, I think castro is a genius! A master chess player in world affairs. He wouldn't have been able to stay in power all these years if he was a dummy.

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 06:50 PM
But Castro, like anyone else, has faults. Major faults. He's paranoid and he has anyone with any power or support whatsoever jailed or killed. He doesn't like it when people speak out against him - thus his fear of free speech. Even as a Castro supporter, I can agree with Castro_Sucks on many things. Hopefully he has an open mind, and so will all of you at Che-Lives.

A well-thought and well-written paragraph. I keep my mind open to those that are willing to both teach AND learn.

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 06:50 PM
Castro_Sucks, what do you think about el Che?
To be honest? I've always heard my father say that Castro was the one that sent Guevara to his death. Castro was the one that arranged Ernesto to go to Bolivia to set up another front, and then ratted him out to the Bolivian Army that in turn shot him up. It seems that El Che was getting a little too popular for your friend Castro.

[email protected] 22 2003, 06:50 PM
EDIT: Castro_Sucks, your signature wont help your popularity at Che-Lives very much... <_<
Evolution through revolution. We'll see what I change my name to next. Thanks again.

Ortega

22nd November 2003, 18:22

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 02:15 PM
QUOTE=Comrade_Zapata,Nov 22 2003, 06:50 PM] Castro_Sucks, what do you think about el Che? To be honest? I've always heard my father say that Castro was the one that sent Guevara to his death. Castro was the one that arranged Ernesto to go to Bolivia to set up another front, and then ratted him out to the Bolivian Army that in turn shot him up. It seems that El Che was getting a little too popular for your friend Castro.

[/quote]
Very true, very true. Castro has always had a history of sending those who challenged him or those who had more support than him to their deaths. Have any of you heard about what happened to Camilo Cienfuegos? He was Castro's right hand man, right up there with Che. Just months after the revolution, Castro sent Camilo in a tiny plane on a mission to speak to the governor of one of Cuba's eastern provinces. The plane mysteriously dissapeared in flight. The official Cuban government statement was that the plane had gone down in a storm. It was a perfectly clear day when the plane dissapeared. Castro himself got on another plane with Camilo's parents to go on a "heroic" search for Camilo's plane. The people there say that Castro was laughing and smiling, completely happy. He didn't seem affected in any way by Camilo's dissapearance. After years of searching, the plane was never found and Castro claimed that it must have "washed into the sea". Keep in mind that the plane was at no time anywhere near the coast.
Camilo had been very very popular among the Cuban people, without a doubt a threat to Fidel's power. Just like Che. Keep that in mind all of you Castro-lovers. Castro is a political genius, but as I have said before, he has many faults. I'm glad theres someone else here who realizes that.

-Comrade_Zapata

CASTRO_SUCKS

22nd November 2003, 18:31

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 07:22 PM
I'm glad theres someone else here who realizes that.

As am I. Thank you for your educated responses.

PS-I wonder how many here really know of all those who fought by his side and mysteriously disappeared. You've done your homework my friend.

Urban Rubble

22nd November 2003, 18:41

Castro Sucks, I respect your opinion and I hope we can debate, but I feel you are mistaken on (at least) one point.

Castro holds absolutely no blame in Che's death. Che left the island against Castro's will to go fight in Bolivia. There was no popular support for revolution in Bolivia, something Che should have thought about a little better. There is no evidence that Castro "ratted' Che out to anyone, that is simply not true sir. Che died because the mission in Bolivia was impossible, it was Che's mistake, no one elses.

Now, as far as "how many people have mysteriously died", that's kind of an odd reason to hate someone. Look at how many people that were connected with the JFK assassination that dies mysteriously, that should not be a reason that Cuba is any worse of than the U.S. Our government kills political dissedents all the time.

The fact is this, Cuba has alot of problems but she is still a beacon of hope for Latin America. The Cuban people enjoy a far better standard of living than most do in Capitalist ruled Latin American nations, can we agree on that ? Sure, there is a huge downside to living in Cuba, but would you rather have the right to critisize the government, or would you want food to eat ? Would you rather have the option of driving a BMW, or would you want shelter ? Affordable healthcare or Playstation2's in every store ?

Every Cuban citizen has everything they need for survival, as revolutionaries it is our duty to see that they are raised to the same economic position as us. They should have PS2's, nice cars and all the luxuries that we have, but until they are allowed to run their system by the principles they deem fit (free from U.S aggression) that will never happen.

Castro is not the enemy, although he is flawed, Capitalism, particularly U.S Capitalism, is the enemy.

Soul Rebel

22nd November 2003, 18:52

There is a big difference, Zapata, between being anti-castro and then realizing his faults. As a castro supporter you can still realize his faults, as many of us do, as you do. Just because you support someone does not mean you must follow blindly. However, being anti-castro, as someone here is, does not allow you to even see the good things that the man has been able to accomplish. Do you get what im saying. But overall, I agree with your posts, about seeing the "shady" aspect of castro, because a shadiness about him does exist.

But anyways, at one point we were trying to discuss certain aspects of cuba at the beginning of the thread. So i dug up a post i had written a while back on what i saw in cuba and what i had studied. There is a final statement i make that i should explain-it does not apply to all hotels, but the rule does exist.:

Ahhh... to explain how socialism has worked in cuba.... Well i will tell you from my experience and from what i have read. When i went down there i was really hoping to see the cuba that i have read about and i did. Their policies that i learned about were carried out in front of my very own eyes. For example, their medicial field. I don't know if you all know that cuba has been called a "medical power," but it has. Cuba's work in medicine has been recognized by many around the world, including by WHO. Cuba may be a third world country but their medicine is very much first world/advanced. They have lent their services to other third world countries, especially to countries in Africa to fight AIDS. They give services as well as supplies.

But their medical practices are note-worthy within cuba itself. For example, Cuba has the lowest AIDS rates. This due to many things: 1st) their AIDS sanitorium, 2nd) their advocacy, and 3rd) their overall health system. How cuba handles AIDS cases has been very controversial, but it seems to have worked. What they do is this: if someone gets a positive diagnosis they get sent to the sanitorium. At the sanitorium patients are very well taken care of- they are given medicine for their every condition, etc. At the sanitorium they are unemployed but yet still get paid their salary and they are allowed to take part in activities such as arts/crafts, gardening, etc. They are also allowed to get vistors and are allowed to leave to visit family and friends (but first they have to go through a serious of psych. tests to make sure they are no danger to the public). Their advocacy also helps. Their are public programs which discuss how to protect oneself. Officials have also come out saying that condoms do not ruin sex, just save lives (which the U.S. gvrnmnt. would never do). Condoms are sold pretty much everywhere and are very afordable, about 99 cents for 3. When i went to church there, i actually found a poster for AIDS prevention in the church. I showed two people holding hands and running on the beach and underneath is said to protect yourself from AIDS think wisely and use a condom. Their overall health care system is wonderful in my opinion. Everyone has health care and is taken care of. The gvrnmnt. has installed programs such as having a doctor on every block, exercise programs for children/elderly, anti-smoking programs (Castro actually stopped smoking in order to be a role-model), etc. This has led to low-infant mortality rates.

Education is also taken quite seriously. I had the great opportunity to enter a school and see what the curriculum was like. In the front of the school posters are posted telling parents/public what expectations must be met. The students take classes in gym, hygiene, history, vocational stuff, etc. Their universities are quite good too. Students from around the world, except the U.S., attend the university in havana (i found this out from meeting a woman on the street who taught there). Their literacy rate is amazing, i believe its like 98 or something. When castro first came to power he challenged communities around cuba to elliminate illiteracy from their town. If a town was able to do this a flag was put up symbolizing their battle against illiteracy. **Just a little comment- children in the school system wear uniforms and little red ties around their neck, symbolizing that they are the next generation of revolutionaries**

Cuba has also set up Committees for the Defense of the Revolution. Obviously this is to make sure that the values of the revolution are up and running smoothly and to protect these values. Cuba also has a ministry for just about everything. I found that they are more bureocratic then the U.S.

However, I really believe that it is in the cuban people where you see socialism at work. These people have such a joy for life. They are more relaxed and enjoy themselves than we do. I mean yes it sucks watching them wait for hours in line to get bread or having them constantly ask you for soap or pencils, but they are better people than the american people. They are helpful and caring and proud. They truly know how to live i think. A lot of people don't like cuba because they think of poverty, but i think that they couldnt be more wrong. These people have the necessities in life, we on the other hand don't. We are extremely materialistic and believe that the more you have the better you are and happier you are. This is not true however. I look at the cuban people and see that they only have what they need to get by, which i believe to be fine, and see that they are better off. Its very hard to explain, i cant find the right words to tell you what its like down there. You would have to experience it to understand.

Sadly, however, things may change. One could feel the influence of capitalism starting to come in, especially in the tourism industry. ***did you know cubans are not allowed to enter the hotels? i hated that because i did want to be surrounded by the cubans, but i guess not other tourists feel the same way.***

FistFullOfSteel

22nd November 2003, 19:13

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 07:22 PM

QUOTE=Comrade_Zapata,Nov 22 2003, 06:50 PM] Castro_Sucks, what do you think about el Che? To be honest? I've always heard my father say that Castro was the one that sent Guevara to his death. Castro was the one that arranged Ernesto to go to Bolivia to set up another front, and then ratted him out to the Bolivian Army that in turn shot him up. It seems that El Che was getting a little too popular for your friend Castro.

Very true, very true. Castro has always had a history of sending those who challenged him or those who had more support than him to their deaths. Have any of you heard about what happened to Camilo Cienfuegos? He was Castro's right hand man, right up there with Che. Just months after the revolution, Castro sent Camilo in a tiny plane on a mission to speak to the governor of one of Cuba's eastern provinces. The plane mysteriously dissapeared in flight. The official Cuban government statement was that the plane had gone down in a storm. It was a perfectly clear day when the plane dissapeared. Castro himself got on another plane with Camilo's parents to go on a "heroic" search for Camilo's plane. The people there say that Castro was laughing and smiling, completely happy. He didn't seem affected in any way by Camilo's dissapearance. After years of searching, the plane was never found and Castro claimed that it must have "washed into the sea". Keep in mind that the plane was at no time anywhere near the coast.
Camilo had been very very popular among the Cuban people, without a doubt a threat to Fidel's power. Just like Che. Keep that in mind all of you Castro-lovers. Castro is a political genius, but as I have said before, he has many faults. I'm glad theres someone else here who realizes that.

-Comrade_Zapata [/quote]
Can I see the site where u took this from?

Ortega

22nd November 2003, 21:10

There's no site Hugo. I already knew it, and have known it. I have read many times over many books about Che, Fidel, and even one about Camilo. I've also read many books of both Che and Fidel's speeches in which they refer to Camilo's death. I have "done my homework", as Castro_Sucks said, and learned both sides of the story. Both lead to an obvious conclusion - that Fidel, if not directly responsible for Camilo's death, at least sent him off knowing that something would go wrong - maybe the plane had a faulty engine or the instruments weren't right. Fidel did the same thing to Che - After Che's speech in Algiers, Africa, in which he criticized the Soviet Union and its lack of support for smaller, "true socialist" countries, he returned home to an angry Fidel. Fidel's relations with the Soviet Union had just been getting off to a good start when Che made his speech. The speech had angered the Soviets and they had warned Fidel not to let anything like this happen again.
Not much is known from then on but it seems quite obvious that Che had become too popular and powerful for Fidel, and that Fidel needed support from the Soviets. Therefore, whether or not he meant to kill Che, he sent him off to Africa where he would be in the jungle and out of the world spotlight. From then on, Fidel had control over Che, as a legend. Instead of allowing Che to speak for himself, Fidel could suggest what Che might do and inspire the people with his "let's be like Che" talk. Fidel could read Che's farewell letter to the people. For all we know that may not have even been Che's real letter. Several people with Che in Africa remember him being angry when he heard Fidel reading his letter on the radio and remember Che calling Fidel a "shithead".
The mission in Africa was a failure, however, and Che arrived home early. Thus, Fidel sent him off to Bolivia, a country without a doubt not ready for Revolution (which Fidel obviously knew). Fidel never told Che in advance that he would not be welcomed by the Bolivian people, and he probably knew that Che would end up dying.

But in response to your question, Hugo, to find out more about Camilo and his dissapearance, try looking it up on Google. Or go to the bookstore and buy some books!

Hasta la victoria siempre!

-Comrade_Zapata

CASTRO_SUCKS

23rd November 2003, 02:46

Originally posted by SenoraChe+Nov 22 2003, 07:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SenoraChe @ Nov 22 2003, 07:52 PM) But their medical practices are note-worthy within cuba itself. For example, Cuba has the lowest AIDS rates. This due to many things: 1st) their AIDS sanitorium, 2nd) their advocacy, and 3rd) their overall health system. How cuba handles AIDS cases has been very controversial, but it seems to have worked. What they do is this: if someone gets a positive diagnosis they get sent to the sanitorium. At the sanitorium patients are very well taken care of- they are given medicine for their every condition, etc. At the sanitorium they are unemployed but yet still get paid their salary and they are allowed to take part in activities such as arts/crafts, gardening, etc. They are also allowed to get vistors and are allowed to leave to visit family and friends (but first they have to go through a serious of psych. tests to make sure they are no danger to the public)[/b]
Yeah..its called a JAIL lady! I think hitler did the same thing to the mentally and physically challenged. You know, after a certain while, germany had the lowest "handicap and retardation" rates in the world. Smog rate went up considerably though.

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 07:52 PM
......Their overall health care system is wonderful in my opinion. Everyone has health care and is taken care of. The gvrnmnt. has installed programs such as having a doctor on every block, exercise programs for children/elderly, anti-smoking programs (Castro actually stopped smoking in order to be a role-model), etc. Are you kidding me?! You can actually say that with a straight face? I spoke wwith an aunt of mine two weeks ago! You're absolutely right, health care IS free..but you'd better bring your own blanket, linens, light bulbs, soap, etc. Yeah..THATS muuuuch better than here!

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2003, 07:52 PM
...These people have such a joy for life. They are more relaxed and enjoy themselves than we do. I mean yes it sucks watching them wait for hours in line to get bread or having them constantly ask you for soap or pencils, but they are better people than the american people.... These people have the necessities in life, we on the other hand don't. We are extremely materialistic and believe that the more you have the better you are and happier you are.... Wow...I never REALIZED someone can be so BLIND! So you're saying its BETTER to wait in line for food? Its better to have ration cards? These people are actually HAPPIER than Americans to wait in line two hours to get their government ration of millk? Or toilet paper? Do you actually READ your own posts after you write them, or do you just write, totally oblivious to your contradictions??!! News flash..he quit cigar smoking because of his OWN concerns!

[email protected] 22 2003, 07:52 PM
***did you know cubans are not allowed to enter the hotels?
Let me guess..you actually think that cubans aren't allowed inside the hotels because tourists don't want them there? Did I get that correctly? Of course, it has nothing to do with the fact that castro doesn't want them to mingle with those that are actually free to travel and to live their lives the way they want to (ie NOT having to wait in line to receive bread), so that they don't get "TAINTED" by talk of life outside the island!!WOW...what a giant pantload!

You know..I visited Costa Rica once, and liked it so much I stayed and lived there for two years. I spoke highly of it...and moved there......funny there aren't more people with that much conviction in this world!

Iepilei

23rd November 2003, 02:55

I'm not going to lie. The soviet-esque model that Cuba is built off of isn't the best in the world. Infact I have many quarrels with the notion of a "one-man" show. However, when you compare Cuba to it's other Latin American counter-parts, you see that it's not very bad off.

Sure, there are injustices. There are injustices everywhere, even the US. The point is Fidel's Cuba has managed to prove that, even in the midst of blockades and embargos, a socialist society has proven more successful than the BULK of the 'capitalist'-backed latin american nations.

Castro is by no means a god, but he's not completely evil.

Soul Rebel

23rd November 2003, 02:56

First of all- i thought you werent going to read or respond to my posts.

Second- rather than insult what i have to say, why dont you try using some logic to debate it.

And third- i dont know how long it takes you to understand things, but you need to stop making assumptions about the people here.

But to answer your question- i was going to stay in cuba and have been thinking about it alot. This trip was only to figure out how to get down there, to see the land, and meet the people. And as everybody here can tell you i pretty much have been planning to go back down there for the past year.

About the sanitorium- before you start putting words into the Cubans mouths why do you go down there and speak to those in the sanitorium like i did. through their words you will see how they truly feel. dont just make assumptions about things you know nothing about. If you doubt this so much than why dont you call up WHO and ask them where they got the idea to recognize cuba as a world medical power.

Yes, people that only have what is a necessity do enjoy life more because they see what is truly there. They enjoy life for what it is. They know who to live. The people in America live for "stuff", for materials. They have no idea what it means to be truly happy. I have seen this in cuba, in jamaica, and in my country of spain. So trust me, i know what its like to live on bare essentials and enjoy life for what it is.

And actually yes, most tourists do not want to be in the same area as the locals, unless they are of their kind. I saw it there and in other countries i visited.

if you liked c.r. so much why didnt you stay permantently, huh? why you in the us? the only person contradicting themselves here is you.

CASTRO_SUCKS

23rd November 2003, 02:58

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
First of all- i thought you werent going to read or respond to my posts.
Yeah..I guess its like looking at roadkill...you KNOW its disgusting..but somehow you can't look away!

Soul Rebel

23rd November 2003, 03:03

Great "educated" response you got there.

See, i knew you couldnt have a logical debate. You always have to resort to insults because you have nothing to back you up.

Just give up now, stop acting like you're all high and mighty, and admit you're an ignorant teen trying to get a rise out of people.

CASTRO_SUCKS

23rd November 2003, 03:08

Originally posted by SenoraChe+Nov 23 2003, 03:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SenoraChe @ Nov 23 2003, 03:56 AM)
Second- rather than insult what i have to say, why dont you try using some logic to debate it.[/b] Insults? My dear, if you insult so easily, then maybe you SHOULD live in cuba, where insulting someone is jailable offence!

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
But to answer your question- i was going to stay in cuba and have been thinking about it alot. This trip was only to figure out how to get down there, to see the land, and meet the people. And as everybody here can tell you i pretty much have been planning to go back down there for the past year.
I'll bet you 25,000 pezetas that you won't last a year there. And that's no lie!

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
About the sanitorium- before you start putting words into the Cubans mouths why do you go down there and speak to those in the sanitorium like i did. through their words you will see how they truly feel. dont just make assumptions about things you know nothing about. If you doubt this so much than why dont you call up WHO and ask them where they got the idea to recognize cuba as a world medical power. Things I know nothing about, eh? ok..You know everything then.

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
Yes, people that only have what is a necessity do enjoy life more because they see what is truly there. They enjoy life for what it is. They know who to live. The people in America live for "stuff", for materials. They have no idea what it means to be truly happy. I have seen this in cuba, in jamaica, and in my country of spain. So trust me, i know what its like to live on bare essentials and enjoy life for what it is.
Wow what a coincidence...so do I...I also shower once a day, eat 4 times a day, watch the tele when I want, SAY what I want, travel WHERE I want and am HAPPY AS ALL HELL! Funny that.

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
And actually yes, most tourists do not want to be in the same area as the locals, unless they are of their kind. I saw it there and in other countries i visited.
Really? Hmm...I've travelled the world quite extensively and have never experienced THAT one. Good cover-up though!

[email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
if you liked c.r. so much why didnt you stay permantently, huh? why you in the us? the only person contradicting themselves here is you.
And WHO IN BLAZES told you I lived anywhere NEAR the US???!! One of those assumptions you speak against, eh?

CASTRO_SUCKS

23rd November 2003, 03:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 04:03 AM
...admit you're an ignorant teen trying to get a rise out of people.

Wow..you truly have no clue!

Pete

23rd November 2003, 03:11

Mr. Castro-sucks

Answer her arguements. You are not fooling anyone until you do. Come on, should I just believe her or do you have anything to say other than slander and other idiotic phrases that do nothing to even show that you have an arguement passed "I'm against whatever you say just because."

Grow up man.

-Pete

CASTRO_SUCKS

23rd November 2003, 03:14

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:55 AM
I'm not going to lie. The soviet-esque model that Cuba is built off of isn't the best in the world. Infact I have many quarrels with the notion of a "one-man" show. However, when you compare Cuba to it's other Latin American counter-parts, you see that it's not very bad off.

Iepilei: You make a good argument. But, which Latin American counterparts do you speak of? And remember, Columbia doesn't count. Its well known that the FARC is backed by cuba! And we all know FARC very well and what they've done to Columbia. ;)

Soul Rebel

23rd November 2003, 03:16

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Nov 23 2003, 04:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Nov 23 2003, 04:08 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM

Second- rather than insult what i have to say, why dont you try using some logic to debate it. Insults? My dear, if you insult so easily, then maybe you SHOULD live in cuba, where insulting someone is jailable offence!

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
But to answer your question- i was going to stay in cuba and have been thinking about it alot. This trip was only to figure out how to get down there, to see the land, and meet the people. And as everybody here can tell you i pretty much have been planning to go back down there for the past year.
I'll bet you 25,000 pezetas that you won't last a year there. And that's no lie!

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
About the sanitorium- before you start putting words into the Cubans mouths why do you go down there and speak to those in the sanitorium like i did. through their words you will see how they truly feel. dont just make assumptions about things you know nothing about. If you doubt this so much than why dont you call up WHO and ask them where they got the idea to recognize cuba as a world medical power. Things I know nothing about, eh? ok..You know everything then.

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
Yes, people that only have what is a necessity do enjoy life more because they see what is truly there. They enjoy life for what it is. They know who to live. The people in America live for "stuff", for materials. They have no idea what it means to be truly happy. I have seen this in cuba, in jamaica, and in my country of spain. So trust me, i know what its like to live on bare essentials and enjoy life for what it is.
Wow what a coincidence...so do I...I also shower once a day, eat 4 times a day, watch the tele when I want, SAY what I want, travel WHERE I want and am HAPPY AS ALL HELL! Funny that.

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
And actually yes, most tourists do not want to be in the same area as the locals, unless they are of their kind. I saw it there and in other countries i visited.
Really? Hmm...I've travelled the world quite extensively and have never experienced THAT one. Good cover-up though!

[email protected] 23 2003, 03:56 AM
if you liked c.r. so much why didnt you stay permantently, huh? why you in the us? the only person contradicting themselves here is you.
And WHO IN BLAZES told you I lived anywhere NEAR the US???!! One of those assumptions you speak against, eh? [/b]
You have no idea....

By the way, for a person that claims to be cuban, why do you try learning how to spell spanish words correctly?

Well you did get one thing right- that i do know everything. I knew you could catch on with time.

You have no idea what my life is like so im not even going to respond to that comment about showering, eating, etc.

Whats really funny is that we are all still waiting for you to come up with some facts or use some logic in trying to argue. But at the rate we are going i expect to see hell freeze over first.

Well, if you havent experienced it then it must not exist right? Im so amazed by your ignorance. Your ability to not see anything is amazing.

You basically gave away where you live, i had to make no assumptions whatsoever.

El Brujo

23rd November 2003, 03:43

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Nov 23 2003, 01:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Nov 23 2003, 01:16 AM)
[email protected] 17 2003, 03:54 PM
I guess maybe people portray Fidel as authoritative, threatening democracy (?) :huh:

Seeing as I'm probably the only REAL CUBAN on this board that has actually DEALT with the communist Island and has lived there, I'll post MY thoughts!

As for Castro being PERCEIVED as being "authoritative? Well, lets see....my uncle was BEHEADED by the castro regime. He was railroaded and used as the scapegoat for something the communist government did, but did not want leaking out. My father was jailed for speaking his mind, and oh yeah I almost forgot....EVERYTHING my parents worked long and hard for was TAKEN AWAY FORCEFULLY by the communist regime. Living from ration card to ration card....and slowly watching the TRUE BEAUTIFUL cuba slowly DISINTEGRATE under communist rule. Prostitution, corruption, poverty, dirty streets, etc...all this while Fidel lives in a mansion...Yeah, you're right..the United States IS the one keeping Cuba down! :blink:

Hey, I'd say now IS the perfect time to go to cuba and visit. Knock yourself out. Just don't talk bad about the government out loud, check you rooms for bugs, and watch out who you speak to. Hey I hope you have a GREAT time! :angry: [/b]
As a Batistaite, you are no one to criticize Castro for his "authoritarianism" or "corruption." What do you have to say about the CIA-sponsored dictator Fulgencio Batista who was friendly with the Mafia and was in charge of prostitution chains (all of which were thoroughly banned under Castro)? Before the revolution, Cuba was known as "the whorehouse of the caribbean" (wow, you must sure love your country). The people executed under Castro were racist oiligarch criminals that deserved what they got. If you ask me, he was way too leniant. All batistaite Cuban yankee worms are traitors who I don't consider Cuban (or Latin American for that matter) as they fight for the interests of the US against those of their own people.

Ortega

23rd November 2003, 03:47

El Brujo, did Castro_Sucks ever, ever say that he was a supporter of Batista??!?!
If he did, I missed it...

Ortega

23rd November 2003, 03:55

I'm off to sleep, it's late here and I have to get up early tomorrow. Castro_Sucks, don't let the Castro worshippers take over while I'm gone ;)

Hasta la Victoria Siempre!

-Comrade_Zapata

CASTRO_SUCKS

23rd November 2003, 04:11

Originally posted by El Brujo+Nov 23 2003, 04:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (El Brujo @ Nov 23 2003, 04:43 AM) ..What do you have to say about the CIA-sponsored dictator Fulgencio Batista who was friendly with the Mafia and was in charge of prostitution chains (all of which were thoroughly banned under Castro)? [/b]
Prostitution is illegal under castro's rule?????? :blink: Wow..when was the last time YOU visited?

Originally posted by El [email protected] 23 2003, 04:43 AM
Before the revolution, Cuba was known as "the whorehouse of the caribbean" (wow, you must sure love your country). The people executed under Castro were racist oiligarch criminals that deserved what they got. If you ask me, he was way too leniant.
Wow...what a wonderfully amusing post.

El [email protected] 23 2003, 04:43 AM
All batistaite Cuban yankee worms are traitors who I don't consider Cuban (or Latin American for that matter) as they fight for the interests of the US against those of their own people.
You hung yourself by saying I was a "batista-ite". You PROVE to me I EVER said those WORDS. I CHALLENGE you to prove yourself! If you cannot, then you've pissed away your chance to "impress me" much like the person above YOUR last post!

Nitey nite cupcake!

El Brujo

23rd November 2003, 05:46

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 01:11 PM
Prostitution is illegal under castro's rule?????? :blink: Wow..when was the last time YOU visited?

Yes it is. One of the first things Castro did when he came to power was close down the Saloons and crack down on Mafia activities. I am aware that prostitution has reemerged illegaly (those kinds of things happen when a country is poverty-stricken, lost its main trade-partner and ally and under economic sanctions from the "world police", you know?).

You hung yourself by saying I was a "batista-ite". You PROVE to me I EVER said those WORDS. I CHALLENGE you to prove yourself! If you cannot, then you've pissed away your chance to "impress me" much like the person above YOUR last post!

You never said it, but you most-certainly implied it:

...slowly watching the TRUE BEAUTIFUL cuba slowly DISINTEGRATE under communist rule.

If you have a problem with how "authoritarian" the Cuban government (as most Cuban-yanks claim to) why don't you claim that Cuba "was never free in the first place" instead of how its "disintegrating"? Oh, that's right, because under the "friendly dictatorship", your family held its inherited and un-earned class and prestiege. <_<

LuZhiming

23rd November 2003, 06:31

The unfair imprisoning and beheading of a relative is certainly an understandable reason for a person to dislike Castro. Castro_Sucks, if you don't mind, what was it that your father said that caused his arrest and execution? And, was your family well off financially? Also, under Batista there was massive prostitution, I don't comprehend the point of your bringing up the illegal prostitution under Castro.

Ortega

23rd November 2003, 13:21

Thank you, LuZhiming, for your open-minded-ness. Castro_Sucks, answering his questions would probably clear up a lot of this.
And yes, there was a lot of prostitution under Batista, but under Castro it's gotten even worse, illegal or not. Castro's sure not doing much to stop it either.

atlanticche

23rd November 2003, 14:03

Fidel is a capitalist pig, he may of once been a great man but hes changed from when he first went to cuba, hes now trying to turn cuba into one big tourist resort, around the reefs

Ortega

23rd November 2003, 14:06

Yes! Thank you, atlanticche, thank you. That is completely true. He is exploiting the Cuban as people as much as Batista once did. Castro began a great man, but he is one no longer.

CASTRO_SUCKS

23rd November 2003, 14:30

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 07:31 AM
The unfair imprisoning and beheading of a relative is certainly an understandable reason for a person to dislike Castro. Castro_Sucks, if you don't mind, what was it that your father said that caused his arrest and execution? And, was your family well off financially?
It wasn't my father, it was my uncle. My father was jailed for speaking out against the unlawful and unfounded imprisonment and execution of his brother. His brother worked in the newly formed "Instituto Nacional de Reforma Agraria" or the "INRA". He worked in the Veterinarian section. He started pointing out the inefficiency of the workers (Czechs, Russians, etc) that did nothing but carry their little notebooks under their arms and refused to do much work. Soon he was labeled a counter-revolutionary for expressing his views on how the system could work better. Apparently, something happened with the livestock medicine. It was too strong and therefore rendered useless. He was accused of sabotage, and was taken away in the middle of the night, never to be seen again! He was executed him two weeks later.

As for my family being well off in cuba before the revolution, well SOMETHING made them want to take up arms against batista and fight alongside castro. I'll have to poke and prod them a little more to find out. I'll tell you this...i don't remember being wealthy in cuba....I think we were considered middle class.

LuZhiming

23rd November 2003, 15:32

It wasn't my father, it was my uncle.

:lol: Proof of the short memory I can often have!

My father was jailed for speaking out against the unlawful and unfounded imprisonment and execution of his brother. His brother worked in the newly formed "Instituto Nacional de Reforma Agraria" or the "INRA". He worked in the Veterinarian section. He started pointing out the inefficiency of the workers (Czechs, Russians, etc) that did nothing but carry their little notebooks under their arms and refused to do much work.

Geeze, I would actually agree with your uncle.

Soon he was labeled a counter-revolutionary for expressing his views on how the system could work better. Apparently, something happened with the livestock medicine. It was too strong and therefore rendered useless. He was accused of sabotage, and was taken away in the middle of the night, never to be seen again! He was executed him two weeks later.

That is terrible. Whether it was because Fidel Castro being paranoid, Fidel Castro being brutal and indiscriminate, or both, there isn't a justification for such acts. Judgement of his morality does depend on which of the answers to this is, but either way: <_< :(

As for my family being well off in cuba before the revolution, well SOMETHING made them want to take up arms against batista and fight alongside castro. I'll have to poke and prod them a little more to find out. I'll tell you this...i don't remember being wealthy in cuba....I think we were considered middle class.

Hmm, interesting, thank you for the responses.

Thank you, LuZhiming, for your open-minded-ness.

Thanks for the compliments. :)

And yes, there was a lot of prostitution under Batista, but under Castro it's gotten even worse, illegal or not. Castro's sure not doing much to stop it either.

On what do you base the claim that prostitution is worse under Castro? I am not denying it, I frankly don't know the truth of the matter. I have heard this claim before, but I am not sure where it comes from. Do you (Or someone else) mind informing me?

Also, about the tourist deal, I support that. Tourism is quite a significant part of Cuba's economy, and I don't see anything wrong with it. I am in favor of it.

Urban Rubble

23rd November 2003, 20:42

You have a habit of ingnoring my posts. THis is the 3rd time it's happenned. Plesae reply to this.

Castro Sucks, I respect your opinion and I hope we can debate, but I feel you are mistaken on (at least) one point.

Castro holds absolutely no blame in Che's death. Che left the island against Castro's will to go fight in Bolivia. There was no popular support for revolution in Bolivia, something Che should have thought about a little better. There is no evidence that Castro "ratted' Che out to anyone, that is simply not true sir. Che died because the mission in Bolivia was impossible, it was Che's mistake, no one elses.

Now, as far as "how many people have mysteriously died", that's kind of an odd reason to hate someone. Look at how many people that were connected with the JFK assassination that dies mysteriously, that should not be a reason that Cuba is any worse of than the U.S. Our government kills political dissedents all the time.

The fact is this, Cuba has alot of problems but she is still a beacon of hope for Latin America. The Cuban people enjoy a far better standard of living than most do in Capitalist ruled Latin American nations, can we agree on that ? Sure, there is a huge downside to living in Cuba, but would you rather have the right to critisize the government, or would you want food to eat ? Would you rather have the option of driving a BMW, or would you want shelter ? Affordable healthcare or Playstation2's in every store ?

Every Cuban citizen has everything they need for survival, as revolutionaries it is our duty to see that they are raised to the same economic position as us. They should have PS2's, nice cars and all the luxuries that we have, but until they are allowed to run their system by the principles they deem fit (free from U.S aggression) that will never happen.

Castro is not the enemy, although he is flawed, Capitalism, particularly U.S Capitalism, is the enemy.

Ortega

23rd November 2003, 22:26

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 23 2003, 04:42 PM
You have a habit of ingnoring my posts. THis is the 3rd time it's happenned. Plesae reply to this.

Castro Sucks, I respect your opinion and I hope we can debate, but I feel you are mistaken on (at least) one point.

Castro holds absolutely no blame in Che's death. Che left the island against Castro's will to go fight in Bolivia. There was no popular support for revolution in Bolivia, something Che should have thought about a little better. There is no evidence that Castro "ratted' Che out to anyone, that is simply not true sir. Che died because the mission in Bolivia was impossible, it was Che's mistake, no one elses.

Now, as far as "how many people have mysteriously died", that's kind of an odd reason to hate someone. Look at how many people that were connected with the JFK assassination that dies mysteriously, that should not be a reason that Cuba is any worse of than the U.S. Our government kills political dissedents all the time.

The fact is this, Cuba has alot of problems but she is still a beacon of hope for Latin America. The Cuban people enjoy a far better standard of living than most do in Capitalist ruled Latin American nations, can we agree on that ? Sure, there is a huge downside to living in Cuba, but would you rather have the right to critisize the government, or would you want food to eat ? Would you rather have the option of driving a BMW, or would you want shelter ? Affordable healthcare or Playstation2's in every store ?

Every Cuban citizen has everything they need for survival, as revolutionaries it is our duty to see that they are raised to the same economic position as us. They should have PS2's, nice cars and all the luxuries that we have, but until they are allowed to run their system by the principles they deem fit (free from U.S aggression) that will never happen.

Castro is not the enemy, although he is flawed, Capitalism, particularly U.S Capitalism, is the enemy.
First of all, Castro holds most of the blame in Che's death. Che certainly made mistakes, but on the day of Che's death he even admitted that he had been sent blindly into Bolivia by "higher levels" in the Cuban government.
"How many people have mysteriously dissapeared" isn't a reason to hate someone?!?!? Those people had families. How would you like for your father or brother or husband or son to mysteriously dissapear in the night, with no explanation as to where theyd gone?!? I know I wouldn't like it.

Hasta siempre!

-Comrade_Zapata

CASTRO_SUCKS

23rd November 2003, 22:40

Soul Rebel

23rd November 2003, 22:44

Urban- he cant respond because he has nothing to say or nothing to back him up. The only thing he can do is snap at people.

Chewillneverdie

23rd November 2003, 22:46

in my opinion i think Castro was a great man, but he's lost his touch, and Che did think Castro had something to do with it, with everything Castro has done, why wouldnt he? Personally Castro has turned the country into a shithole, yeah Batista was bad, but so was the man following him. Why wouldnt Castro Sucks enjoy living in the US, i know i hate what the gov. has done, but i love what it is founded on, and its a easy living without having to worry about being executed for saying the US sucks

CASTRO_SUCKS

23rd November 2003, 22:55

Originally posted by SenoraChe+Nov 23 2003, 11:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SenoraChe @ Nov 23 2003, 11:44 PM)Urban- he cant respond because he has nothing to say or nothing to back him up. The only thing he can do is snap at people.[/b]
you should read first honey.

[email protected] 23 2003, 11:46 PM
in my opinion i think Castro was a great man, but he's lost his touch, and Che did think Castro had something to do with it, with everything Castro has done, why wouldnt he? Personally Castro has turned the country into a shithole, yeah Batista was bad, but so was the man following him. Why wouldnt Castro Sucks enjoy living in the US, i know i hate what the gov. has done, but i love what it is founded on, and its a easy living without having to worry about being executed for saying the US sucks
Careful there brother...or "senorache" will accuse you of having no basis for your accurate observation and bold statement. ;)

Ortega

23rd November 2003, 23:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 06:46 PM
in my opinion i think Castro was a great man, but he's lost his touch, and Che did think Castro had something to do with it, with everything Castro has done, why wouldnt he? Personally Castro has turned the country into a shithole, yeah Batista was bad, but so was the man following him. Why wouldnt Castro Sucks enjoy living in the US, i know i hate what the gov. has done, but i love what it is founded on, and its a easy living without having to worry about being executed for saying the US sucks
So true.

Eastside Revolt

24th November 2003, 00:03

Originally posted by Fidelbrand+Nov 17 2003, 03:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Fidelbrand @ Nov 17 2003, 03:54 PM)
[email protected] 17 2003, 03:30 PM
Theres a guy in my school who dosnt like Fidel but likes Che...Im gonna ask why

Cuba is always revolutionary!
hi Huggie~ :)

I guess maybe people portray Fidel as authoritative, threatening democracy (?) :huh: [/b]
No, no , no

Personally if there is ever a problem I have with Castro, it's that he doesn't seem to have enough faith in his people, to carry the revolution. He should have stepped down a long time ago, and he sure as hell should not let his brother take over! sheesh! :rolleyes:

CASTRO_SUCKS

24th November 2003, 00:08

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 01:03 AM
Personally if there is ever a problem I have with Castro, it's that he doesn't seem to have enough faith in his people, to carry the revolution. He should have stepped down a long time ago, and he sure as hell should not let his brother take over! sheesh! :rolleyes:
Holy CRAP!!! I couldn't have summed it up better myself! Kudos to you!!
Its been WELL known for a while that Raul castro is a bumbling, flaming idiot. I use the word flaming becuase its always been rumoured that despite his marriage and kids, he has homosexual leanings. Again, just to clarify, this has never been proven, but its a well-known rumour. Again, bravo to you 'RedCananda'!

Soul Rebel

24th November 2003, 00:11

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Nov 23 2003, 11:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Nov 23 2003, 11:55 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2003, 11:44 PM
Urban- he cant respond because he has nothing to say or nothing to back him up. The only thing he can do is snap at people.
you should read first honey.

[email protected] 23 2003, 11:46 PM
in my opinion i think Castro was a great man, but he's lost his touch, and Che did think Castro had something to do with it, with everything Castro has done, why wouldnt he? Personally Castro has turned the country into a shithole, yeah Batista was bad, but so was the man following him. Why wouldnt Castro Sucks enjoy living in the US, i know i hate what the gov. has done, but i love what it is founded on, and its a easy living without having to worry about being executed for saying the US sucks
Careful there brother...or "senorache" will accuse you of having no basis for your accurate observation and bold statement. ;) [/b]
Like i said- you havent been able to argue with any logic. All you have been able to do is talk smack.

I read your posts and they are basically nothing. You havent been able to prove a damn point, hell you havent even been able to make a point.

You can go on and on all you want about how you had family lost at the hands of Castro, but that means nothing. We dont know if that is true or not. I can come here all i want and say that i lost family at the hands of Franco, saying thats all i need as evidence of him being a bad person, but its crap. It means nothing- we dont know if its true or not.

If you want to back up your statement(s) try arguing with facts, dont let zapata do it for you. He has done all the work you were supposed to do. All you did was say i agree and then tell the rest of us that we are ignorant, when in reality the only ignorant fool here is you.

Y si eres cubano pues a ver si puedes leer esto:
Esparces tus heces orales, condenas a la gente
que no es como tu, tu descripcion de la libertad,
IDIOTA!!! Deja mucho que desear, OYE!!! opinas o
impones? Tienes un problema a la hora de razonar,
parece ser que oyes mal, que no quieres escuchar
lo que opinan los demas. AHA!!!QUE FACIL ES
HABLAR POR HABLAR!!!AHA!!!PODER DIRIGIR EN LA
BARRA DEL BAR!!!AHA!!!ERES EL DIOS DE LA
NECEDAD!!!AHA!!!FUERA DE AQUI, PIERDETE YA!!!
(El autentico, ska-p)

Eastside Revolt

24th November 2003, 00:19

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Nov 24 2003, 01:08 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Nov 24 2003, 01:08 AM)
[email protected] 24 2003, 01:03 AM
Personally if there is ever a problem I have with Castro, it's that he doesn't seem to have enough faith in his people, to carry the revolution. He should have stepped down a long time ago, and he sure as hell should not let his brother take over! sheesh! :rolleyes:
Holy CRAP!!! I couldn't have summed it up better myself! Kudos to you!!
Its been WELL known for a while that Raul castro is a bumbling, flaming idiot. I use the word flaming becuase its always been rumoured that despite his marriage and kids, he has homosexual leanings. Again, just to clarify, this has never been proven, but its a well-known rumour. Again, bravo to you 'RedCananda'! [/b]
Fuck off, and don't kiss my ass!

Raul is not an idiot, it would just seem unsensible to hand him power, when you have all sorts of young people that support you. I don't care about your "well known" rumors you homophobe!

Bolshevika

24th November 2003, 00:23

This Castro Sucks has shown his true colors, he is obviously a homophobe.

Raul is an intelligent man. Fidel does let the people carry the revolution. How could the revolution still be as sucessful as it is if it wasn't for the people?

Soul Rebel

24th November 2003, 00:24

See, now its all starting to come out- you are nothing but an ignorant, uneducated, capitalist homophobe.

Now your 1 ounce of credibility is gone.

CASTRO_SUCKS

24th November 2003, 00:26

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 01:11 AM
Like i said- you havent been able to argue with any logic. All you have been able to do is talk smack.

I read your posts and they are basically nothing. You havent been able to prove a damn point, hell you havent even been able to make a point.

I'm truly sorry for you if you're unable to actually comprehend logic, and confuse it for this "smack" you speak of, (no doubt a term you learned in college). Perhaps you understand english as poorly as you write spanish. I don't know, but it is proof positive that nowadays, english comprehension is not a requirement to earn a 'degree'.

If I make no valid points whatsoever, then what compels you to continue replying to my posts, and keep trying to discredit my character? There must be something in my words you find threatening. Something that keeps you wanting to fight them. I know when something is insignificant in my life, I swat it away like a little bug. I don't concentrate on it..I dont dwell on it, or try to disprove it.

I've seen that you have travelled the island, and find your posts somewhat interesting. And no matter how much I've said I wouldn't read them, I still do. I don't attempt to discredit you by saying you "haven't made a point". I go ahead and argue them with my own. As far as I'm concerned, you've had an inner view of the island that not many here do....provided what YOU say is true.

Again you don't HAVE to believe a word I say! No one is forcing you to. Isn't that a great thing?

CASTRO_SUCKS

24th November 2003, 00:30

Bahahahahahahahahahaha....look out folks...here comes the smear campaign. If you can't get him one way...then get him with another. Wow...anything to NOT argue a point, eh? A homophobe....now THATS rich!

Good luck with that one folks! :lol:

Oh and redcanada.....don't count on it! ;)

dopediana

24th November 2003, 00:42

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 01:30 AM
Bahahahahahahahahahaha....look out folks...here comes the smear campaign. If you can't get him one way...then get him with another. Wow...anything to NOT argue a point, eh? A homophobe....now THATS rich!

Good luck with that one folks! :lol:

Oh and redcanada.....don't count on it! ;)
reread your post, kiddo.

Its been WELL known for a while that Raul castro is a bumbling, flaming idiot. I use the word flaming becuase its always been rumoured that despite his marriage and kids, he has homosexual leanings. Again, just to clarify, this has never been proven, but its a well-known rumour.

yet, if you only use the word flaming because of his possible sexual tendencies and use it to lend no relevancy to his politics and only to your opinion of him as an idiot, it WILL make you sound like a homophobe.

Soul Rebel

24th November 2003, 00:46

Ahhh... i knew you were going to attack my spanish, in order to try to hide the fact that you know no spanish and really arent cuban. Well considering you dont know a word of spanish, i would like for you to even try and point out one mistake. See, me on the other hand, i speak spanish because i really am spanish (as in from spain, that little country in europe), i have no reason to lie about that, unlike you. However, knowing how you are your response will be something along the lines of "if you dont know than i dont have to show you," which will only prove you to be as pathetic as we already think you are.

and its funny that you would say you "argued" my points about cuba because you didnt. you made no valid points or arguments. you just tried to shoot insults with your ridiculous, condescending remarks, such as that i am uneducated and "bought" my degree (which may be the case for you, not for me).

if you dont believe i went to cuba, then you can check the pictures i posted.

Point out where you used any bit of logic. Point out where you made a reasonable argument- without making degrading remarks to people.

and if anyone here feels threatened its definitely you. i have no reason to feel threatened- you have given no reason for anyone on this board to feel threatened. and its always the weakest (which would be you in this case) that tries to attack the strength of another. you claim that you as a tough person are able to swat away at things like they were bugs, but yet you havent been able to do that to me. you keep responding as well, so maybe you are the one feeling threatened.

dopediana

24th November 2003, 00:52

***BRAINFART***

unless i bore an everlasting hatred and lust for revenge against castro and all of his regime and wanted to destroy them, i wouldn't be mucking around places online that would just bring me down. because people go on the internet to be happy.

Eastside Revolt

24th November 2003, 01:42

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2003, 01:23 AM
This Castro Sucks has shown his true colors, he is obviously a homophobe.

Raul is an intelligent man. Fidel does let the people carry the revolution. How could the revolution still be as sucessful as it is if it wasn't for the people?
Yeah, THE GREAT COMRADE SHTALINE let the people carry the revolution during his entire iron fisted rule! <_<

I'm not comparing castro's policies in the slightest to that of Stalin, I'm just trying to point out that disasters can arise when small groups make large decisions especially over long periods of time.

Bolshevika

24th November 2003, 02:04

Yes, Long live Stalin.

By the way, much of Fidel's government is taken right out of 1930's Soviet Union. Peoples Commission, domestic elections, agrarian reforms, etc.

Urban Rubble

24th November 2003, 03:00

You expect me to reply to THIS close-mindedness? Read your own words. There are not enough FACTS for me to disclose that will ever change your mind. If you've taken ANY time whatsoever to read the life of castro, you'll realize that EVERYONE that ever stood in his way, or he deemed a threat, has disappeared! Sort of like the purges in both Russia AND Germany. If I don't answer the rest of your post its because I've said it before and I'll repeat myself...I won't waste time with those that aren't willing to both impart knowledge to, AND learn from, others. Read about castro..his methods....his rise to power...and his tactics to STAY in power. Then we will freely and openly (hopefully) share and discuss our views.

God you're a fucking moron. You say you want civilised debate, yet you will only talk to people who agree with you. I've read about Castro, alot. I am trying to "freely and openly" discuss our views, but whenever someone who doesn't agree with you posts something, you refuse to answer it.

Show me ONE shred of evidence that Castro had anything to do with Che's death. If you're going to say such an contoversial thing, you'd better have some evidence to back it up. Otherwise all you're doing is spreading fairy tales.

Che wanted to go to Bolivia, or have you never read the letter that Castro sent him telling him to stay ? I cannot believe that you kids actually think Castro had Che murdered. Where is the motive ? Please tell me.

nezvanova

24th November 2003, 05:55

"Cruel leaders are replaced to have new leaders turn cruel."
-Che

It's a Che quote i found a while back, that seemed rather apt considering the direction the debate took. i'm a little dissapointd that it has degraded to a mud-slinging contest, but, thats the way of the world i guess.

Castro_sucks: thank you for your tactful responce to my post.

Overall, I'm happy to see a debate that shows both sides of a vast spectrum. i only hope that we can find a medium, without resorting to more brash and unneccecary comments. As long as we keep insulting eachother, we will keep insulting back. This goes for all of you. Retaliation will lead to more retaliation. We should all show some class by showing some maturity and not responding to insults with insults. I truly hope that this topic can become educational to those, who like me, have not yet formed an opinion. I will remain scepticle regardless of the direction of the topic, for I do wish to form my own opinions based on personal expierience, but I gladly listen to any and all who have something to say. whether or not it's slanderous, I guess I will discover for myself soon enough.

swapna

24th November 2003, 06:26

Castro Sucks,

All the arguments you made are self-centered. You had some bad experiences in Cuba. You assert facts based on your expereinces. You left out the opinions of a majority. If you alone are a representative of the whole cuban population, then we would agree castro is bad.

The over all success of a president doesnt depend on a random minority of the cases.

With the limited resources Castro had, he tried to implement socialism and make a majority of the people happy.

How do you explain these:

Cuba has far higher literacy rate than the US.
Cuba has far better medical care than the US.
Cuba has far less number of homeless people than the US.
The poverty rate in cuba is less than most countries in the world.
Cuba showed good progress in sports. Cuba doest buy sports stars as US does. Cuba makes them.
Cuba is an independent nation. Not a US puppette.
Without Castro, cuba would have been like mexico with 75% below the poverty line .
When compared to the batistha and pre batistha regimes, the condition of cuba improved a lot within a short time.

Inspite of the embargo, Cuba achieved a lot.

It is alright if some people like you have less luxuries at the expense of food clothing and shelter for everyone.

Sandino111

24th November 2003, 08:42

I was born in Mexico. Capitalism has not worked in Mexico!!! I love freedom of speech, but what good is freedom of speech when no one listen to you. My family was poor and when we got sick, too bad! Under this system only the wealthy can afford to see a doctor. When you go days without having food, eating is more important that freedom of speech.

I now live in the U.S. Things are better here, but I still resent the fact that most of my Mexican brothers and sisters live in a country that doesn't have proper healthcare and has more than half of the population living under inhumane conditions. I went to Mexico last year, and nothing has changed!!! Mexico is full of crooked politicians that have raped my country of its wealth and it's pride. The Mexican people would be better off if they had someone like Castro!

PS- The U.S. isn't as good as it's made to be! There's still racism and unfair distribution of wealth all over. I live in California and it pisses me off, when I see the White people living in their mansions on the mountain hills, while the minorities( Latinos & Blacks) are crammed in tiny apartments! :angry:

Anarchist Freedom

24th November 2003, 10:36

i would bother to read all 5 pages ,but it prolly just rambles on between CASTRO_SUCKS and Senora Che. how about people we stop fighting because each person has there own beleifs and veiws on things. now CASTRO_SUCKS i dont particurally agree with your views on america , well why you ask because america isnt so high and mighty,how you ask? hmm heres why if you know anything im just gunna rifle off 5 countries in which america has supported here we go, cuba, gautemala ,taliban, sadamm huessein, chile, colombia the list goes on and on and on........

so basically C_S please dont accuse cuba for a little bad things because america is 10 times worse then the dinky island of cuba

ok??

good now piss off

:che:

General A.A.Vlasov

24th November 2003, 10:46

Have you heard, that 5 ballerinas run away, while beeng on concert tour in usa!?

Are they running from good life to bad!? No...quite the contrary!...

But...I like Cuba and Castro more, than usa and bush! :angry:

Anastacia

24th November 2003, 10:48

I think Castro_sucks has really good points. You people just can't debate. CS proves his arguments and you guys just insult him. Castro may be a good leader but he has his mistakes just like many of you have admitted. Comrade-zapata, I think you are too a wise man. I think Cuba is a great country but of course I also want to hear the nagative side of it. I don't think it is perfect. No system ever is perfect. This guy gives you facts and you insult him. It just proves that you can't debate. Just because he shows the dark side of Cuba doesn't mean that he hates Cuba the most and thinks that any system would be better. Please stop that black and white thinking and learn to debate. It's time to wake up and realize that no utopia is perfect because of humans.

"Cruel leaders are replaced to have new leaders turn cruel."
-Che

I really agree with that. Money and power makes humans really greed and selfish.

General A.A.Vlasov

24th November 2003, 10:52

Anastacia...yes, No system ever is perfect...agree on 100%

...but "Cruel leaders are replaced to have new leaders turn cruel."...not always!

Ortega

24th November 2003, 18:52

Che himself said it. All of you Che-worshippers who follow the word of Che like the bible, keep that in mind... "Cruel leaders are replaced only to have other leaders turn cruel."
It applies to Castro completely, and no one can disagree on that.

dannie

24th November 2003, 20:22

*post deleted by myself*

Anastacia

25th November 2003, 09:14

Originally posted by General [email protected] 24 2003, 02:52 PM
"Cruel leaders are replaced to have new leaders turn cruel."...not always!
It depends. There will never be a dictator that thinks people's best. The more you have power the more selfish you become. That's why power shouldn't be in one man's hands.

Chewillneverdie

26th November 2003, 04:04

Senorita Che how can u justify dead children? all in the name of the revolution huh? Great leaders dont want to see death at all, SubComandante Marcos thinks death is such a horrible thing, and even in the name of the Revolution, it is still not justified. Im Buddhist, and even tho i believe in reincarnation, loss of life is such a terrible thing.

Soul Rebel

26th November 2003, 04:16

Explain to me how im brainwashed. I also have nothing to be embarassed about. Because i have my own views? Get over it and stop trying to come pick a fight.

Soul Rebel

26th November 2003, 04:51

Where did i ever say anything about children or me supporting the killing or torture of small children? Have you even read my posts? Did i ever say i supported death, even in the name of the revolution? You're talking to an anti-death penalty activist here, so i doubt i would support the death of anyone, even for a revolution.

Did you even get a clue as to what i was talking about in my post?

Since you did not catch on the first time i will state it again:
***Fidel does have some sketchy behavior, but so would you after being targeted the way he has. He has done wonderful things for cuba. I have been studying how things in cuba are for a very long time and saw it all in action with my own eyes. Every human has flaws and since fidel is human i can only expect to him to have them. I see these flaws but see the good he has done as well. Maybe you should read the post i made about how cuba is run. Is that any clearer?***

and nice way to change your post suddenly.

like i said, i dont want to continue this fighting. its ridiculous. never had to deal with fighting with anyone like this and dont want to start now. i just want to continue having meaningful debates, but if youre only going to say snappish comments, then dont bother even addressing it to me, its not worth my time.

commie pig

26th November 2003, 04:57

Im a nerd :)

Urban Rubble

26th November 2003, 05:08

God. You are so fucking banned.

commie pig

26th November 2003, 05:09

I love kittens.

Monty Cantsin

26th November 2003, 05:41

The issue of Cuba having a good system or a bad one is very complex. Because you have two sides to Fidel Castro, you have the side that cares for the people and there well being and developing education and health. Which none can argue that Cuba is better of now then it was with the before the bastria(not sure of the spelling) reign. Fidel’s not one of those dictators with a Swiss bank account stealing the peoples money.

But on the other hand Fidel is authoritative and there not a democratic bone in him. He’s also very paranoid and that’s why his lasted for so long. Also on this hand there are some things that resemble the old Soviet Union and Stalin just not on the same scale.

So all I can say things have two sides like the yin and the yang, there is a balance and you take the bits you like and leave the ones you don’t. It’s a working progress an evolution of thought its not going to happen over night but it will happen.

Chewillneverdie

26th November 2003, 05:59

lol im gainst the death penalty myself, but i dont support Fidel and his countless murders. I respect you for some stuff, well i respect just bout every1. How can u support Fidel tho? I mean he is a great leader, the greatest enviromentalist alive. I just hate innocent life lost.

Soul Rebel

26th November 2003, 06:18

chewillneverdie- i respect fidel because i feel he is a good leader. i feel he truly cares about the cuban people and really wants nothing but the best for them. i believe he is a good man who has mainly been potrayed as an evil man by the media and the miami cubans. we only hear about some sketchy behaviors of his, but never his accomplishments. we have been shaped to have this idea about fidel as a bad man- we never had the chance to shape our own, get what im saying?

im also going to make a comment about the death thing. this comment is not being made to justify the deaths/executions in cuba, but to make some of us realize that these things happen all over the world, but in different ways. The us is the richest country in the world, but yet people die everyday from poverty (illness, hunger, the cold, etc.). The us also executes people basically on the basis of race- although they say its on the basis of the crime committed. Lets look at the nations of Africa and even in India (who will in years become the country with the largest AIDS population in the world)- people are dying everyday from HIV/AIDS while we sit around and watch, rather than take action. This blame is basically on all of us- we need to be asking for something to be done. Children are becoming orphans at high rates because their parents are dying from the disease. Lets look at my country of Spain- the government refuses to acknowledge their past and present mistakes in their treatment of el pasi vasco and its people and as a result almost a thousand people have died at the hands of ETA.

So do you get what im saying? Innocent lives are lost everyday at the hands of leaders and even because of us (for not giving the unheard a voice or taking action), so to critique fidel alone is just wrong. We need to be looking at EVERYONE.