The Lion King.

[tom1992]

The Lion King, it has a political thing to it.
What is your opinion?

-Mufasa was a conservative that had a weird sort of naturalistic view on the destiny of Simba.
-The brother of musafa was a caudillo, that wanted to kill Mufasa. Probably a bit fascist..In parts he says to the hyena's "you don't have a brain" and then they march around Scar.
- The hyena in some part said they do not need a king.
-Raifiki is the personification of historical consciousness

[Psy]

My problem with Lion King is it the story is fatalist where Simba take the thrown because it was fated. In comparison Kimba from Kimba the White Lion (Jungle Emperor) while of noble birth it really counted for little as the other animals demanded more then just his nobility as justification to follow him.

[RedGrunt]

Ww2

[khlib]

Fox News?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

It's part of my childhood so I've got a soft spot for it. Having said that, you've got to look at every film objectively.

Much like a lot of Disney films, it is accepting of a natural order in society and anyone who would seek to overthrow that become evil scavangers who would rape the land of any beauty. Rafiki appears to me to be more of a religious figure that works to uphold the traditions of government as he sees fit because it was preordained.

[RedSonRising]

One point of controversy was the fact that the vilified Hyenas all had Urban Black/Latino accents.

[thriller]

My sister always says it should be called "The Bush King" in that Mufasa says all the land will be Simba's one day, except for the Hyena's land. Simba then wants part of the Hyena's land. He then runs away and learns to not have any responsibility, but eventually returns and just takes power. I always thought that was a funny analogy.

[~Spectre]

They intentionally modeled this bit after footage of Nazi Germany:

Q2MvuZXwt9o

@1:40 mark

[Doflamingo]

It's obvious that Scar is a fascist, but I'm sort of interested in what people are going to say about Timon and Pumbaa.

[Sendo]

The Lion King.

1 Ripoff of Kimba

2 Fascism: it advocates a natural order to the classes and a replacement of class warfare with class colloboration

3 Homophobia/Europhobia/Racism: Scar is a dainty cowardly British dark-furred lion. All hyenas are evil. Credit to RedSon for spotting the African-American and Latin-American accents on the hyenas as well.

4 Sexism: Simba's childhood friend is a better fighter than Simba, but beyond the cute little reversal of male and female power stereotypes she needs Simba to lead the revolution even though she is capable of it and has better report with the other lions. Either the movie's sexist, or honestly believes Simba should be the leader because English style monarchical succession (not Saudi) will always produce the correct leader.

5 Conflation of socialism and fascism: oppressed minority seek equal status with ruling and middle classes and are clumsily likened to Nazis

6 Complete lack of logic: Scar being evil and hyenas possibly overhunting herbivores causes the plants to disappear and rain to not fall

The only good things are the voices of James Earl Jones, Jeremy Irons, Rowan Atkinson, and Nathan Lane. Matthew Broderick, whom I loved in Ferris and in Election, is shit here. Whiny and limp.

[GallowsBird]

because English style monarchical succession (not Saudi) will always produce the correct leader.

You mean of course British if we are talking of the UK monarchy in general, however that form of monarchic succession is continental in origin (Frankish mostly) as in England monarchs were originally elected rather than merely being the son of the king before. Hence in 1066 Harold Godwinson was elected king over Edward's son Edgar (who was elected king after Harold's death incidentally and then fled to Scotland).

Good post otherwise.

[bcbm]

The only good things are the voices of James Earl Jones, Jeremy Irons, Rowan Atkinson, and Nathan Lane.

i think you forgot someone on that list

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lqGqPoHv46Q/Tmjc6ZJIgxI/AAAAAAAAA2o/AV0Qaiw6ino/s400/jtt%2B1.jpg

[Franz Fanonipants]

i am shocked that this disney production has questionable political messages shocked

[Rafiq]

Ah, Disney, yes, they're known for producing some of the most vile Fascistic Right Wing chauvinist films.

[RedSonRising]

Ah, Disney, yes, they're known for producing some of the most vile Fascistic Right Wing chauvinist films.

This video puts it all in perspective; the bit I wrote before about the Hyenas just seems so much worse after hearing this.

jHyzAbV6nuM

[NewSocialist]

Its even more eurocentric and racist then most disney films because not only are almost all of the heroic characters voiced by lilly white actors while the evil ones have many Black and Latino actors voicing them, but the whole movie is supposed to be fucking AFRICAN and their doing this. of course since this movie, like all their others, was marketed to middle and upper class White kids no one raised a stink over it. The only other blatantly racist (most of them are a lil more subtle in their racism) disney flick I remember was Aladdin when they drew most of the Arab characters looking extremely European White looking. God forbid disney should ever use a lil brown pigment on a characters skin....

[GallowsBird]

Its even more eurocentric and racist then most disney films because not only are almost all of the heroic characters voiced by lilly white actors while the evil ones have many Black and Latino actors voicing them, but the whole movie is supposed to be fucking AFRICAN and their doing this. of course since this movie, like all their others, was marketed to middle and upper class White kids no one raised a stink over it. The only other blatantly racist (most of them are a lil more subtle in their racism) disney flick I remember was Aladdin when they drew most of the Arab characters looking extremely European White looking. God forbid disney should ever use a lil brown pigment on a characters skin....

They are technically Iranian characters (the town is based on the layout supervisor Rasoul Azadani's Iranian home town of Isfahan*, they also have a Tiger (more likely if it were further east) many names such as Jasmine are Indo-Iranian, it is from the Persian yasmin). If we mean by "White" caucasian then Arabs are white as are Iranians (technically if we are being accurate to the source folktale they should be Hui (Han Muslims) or perhaps more likely one of the Turkic groups in or near China). I personally reject such notions of "white" however as it is hard to tell where a cut off is, are many North African groups black or white for example? Populations generally blend into each other. But that is a topic for debate. As for Iranians depending on where they live they can be dark or pale or even Turkic looking (there are many Turkic tribes in Iran). The character of Jasmine is drawn quite dark and looks like a drawing of an Indian to me. The Sultan reminds me of a Rajput as well.

I am not defending the film too much as it is sort of a bastardisation of the source (and I am very interested in folklore from the Islamic world) but some of the criticisms I disagree with.


*As well as the fantastic sets in the film 'The Thief of Bagdad' which isn't set in Iran as it is supposed to be Basra in Iraq; these sets do show much Iranian influence (more so than many Arabic cities (which do have Iranian influences), though being set in Iraq this is surprisingly realistic as Iraq was part ot he same empire for a long time and does feature many Iranic styles in its architecture).

NOTE: The above is not an error, although the two main characters are from Bagdad only the beginning and end are set their; the city featured is mostly Basra.

[RedSonRising]

They are technically Iranian characters (the town is based on the layout supervisor Rasoul Azadani's Iranian home town of Isfahan*, they also have a Tiger (more likely if it were further east) many names such as Jasmine are Indo-Iranian, it is from the Persian yasmin). If we mean by "White" caucasian then Arabs are white as are Iranians (technically if we are being accurate to the source folktale they should be Hui (Han Muslims) or perhaps more likely one of the Turkic groups in or near China). I personally reject such notions of "white" however as it is hard to tell where a cut off is, are many North African groups black or white for example? Populations generally blend into each other. But that is a topic for debate. As for Iranians depending on where they live they can be dark or pale or even Turkic looking (there are many Turkic tribes in Iran). The character of Jasmine is drawn quite dark and looks like a drawing of an Indian to me. The Sultan reminds me of a Rajput as well.

I am not defending the film too much as it is sort of a bastardisation of the source (and I am very interested in folklore from the Islamic world) but some of the criticisms I disagree with.


*As well as the fantastic sets in the film 'The Thief of Bagdad' which isn't set in Iran as it is supposed to be Basra in Iraq; these sets do show much Iranian influence (more so than many Arabic cities (which do have Iranian influences), though being set in Iraq this is surprisingly realistic as Iraq was part ot he same empire for a long time and does feature many Iranic styles in its architecture).

I was about to say, I was under the impression it was supposed to be Iraq by the urban Architecture and clothing; my Egyptian friend told me it Agrabah was supposed to be somewhere in Iraq, and it made sense to me. What you added about the similarities and historical congruences makes sense then.

[Nox]

Scar is a Communist, who wants to overthrow the monarchy and make all animals equal. Long live Scar!

[The Young Pioneer]

Anyone calling Scar a communist is forgetting what things looked like when he came to power. All the lions and hyenas were dying of starvation- He was just a greedy power-hungry lion, not a communist.

That said, while I agree with some of the critical sentiments posted here, we also have to look at when and where this movie was released. Early 90s for, as someone else said, the mostly white upper classes. I was four when I saw this in theatres and fucking loved it. I assumed that since it was about Africa, all the voice actors were black. And growing up it never occurred to me that there was a political tone to it. It's a kids' movie, and it carried no weight on shaping me politically, so it's not like I believe it brainwashes capitalists/monarchists into becoming capitalists/monarchists. I also was under the impression that Timon and Pumbaa were a same-sex couple - Pretty cool for a 90s kids' movie, IMO.

[Nox]

Anyone calling Scar a communist is forgetting what things looked like when he came to power. All the lions and hyenas were dying of starvation-

EXACTLY. That's the propaganda element.

[the last donut of the night]

omg disney makes movies with political views attached what a surprise

can everyone just chill for a while? i just came from the george orwell thread and am currently in a state of shock because most people on this forum are too up-tight to just enjoy a piece of literature or a movie. example: i loved "dumbo", even though we all know it's a pretty racist film. bozos

[The Young Pioneer]

EXACTLY. That's the propaganda element.

...No, I was referring to people here calling him a communist.

[GallowsBird]

I have noticed a fallacy in regards to the view that in the Lion King all the good characters are White American actors whereas all the villains are Black, Hispanic or from England. Though it does mostly conform to this, James Earl Jones plays a good character and he is, I believe, of African, Irish and Native American ancestry. Robert Guillaume (Benson, in er, Benson) was that baboon. Madge Sinclair, a Jamaican actress best known as Bell in Roots was that queen lion.

[RedSonRising]

omg disney makes movies with political views attached what a surprise

can everyone just chill for a while? i just came from the george orwell thread and am currently in a state of shock because most people on this forum are too up-tight to just enjoy a piece of literature or a movie. example: i loved "dumbo", even though we all know it's a pretty racist film. bozos

Someone can enjoy elements of a piece of art while still recognizing the racist elements within them. Considering these Disney Films are held as masterpieces intended for children around the world to watch, it's more than worth nothing that many children are consequently going to grow up associating urban accents of people of color with savage, greedy, violent, low-class, dirty hyenas-and that's just scratching the surface. Excuse me for feeling uptight that the speech patterns of myself and my friends have the potential to invoke fear, horror, dislike, and repugnance within unfamiliar children that don't know any better.

[Psy]

omg disney makes movies with political views attached what a surprise

can everyone just chill for a while? i just came from the george orwell thread and am currently in a state of shock because most people on this forum are too up-tight to just enjoy a piece of literature or a movie. example: i loved "dumbo", even though we all know it's a pretty racist film. bozos

What about the classism of Beauty and the Beast, where Belle is disgusted to being the wife of the dominant petit-bourgeoisie but is happy about being the wife of the old feudal nobility. Gaston is a sexist pig but at least Gaston is not part of the parasitic feudal ruling class and actually produces commodities with his own labor (fur) and most likely uses his accumulated wealth to gain the admiration of the local while the Beast gets people to serve him from his noble title, which pretty much all the Beast had over Gaston as both never really treated Belle with respect.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

What about the classism of Beauty and the Beast, where Belle is disgusted to being the wife of the dominant petit-bourgeoisie but is happy about being the wife of the old feudal nobility. Gaston is a sexist pig but at least Gaston is not part of the parasitic feudal ruling class and actually produces commodities with his own labor (fur) and most likely uses his accumulated wealth to gain the admiration of the local while the Beast gets people to serve him from his noble title, which pretty much all the Beast had over Gaston as both never really treated Belle with respect.

Dude, stop ruining my favorite childhood movies...

Yet, perhaps someone could do a examination of the political tones in Disney's take on the Hunchback of Notre Dam?

[RedSonRising]

What about the classism of Beauty and the Beast, where Belle is disgusted to being the wife of the dominant petit-bourgeoisie but is happy about being the wife of the old feudal nobility. Gaston is a sexist pig but at least Gaston is not part of the parasitic feudal ruling class and actually produces commodities with his own labor (fur) and most likely uses his accumulated wealth to gain the admiration of the local while the Beast gets people to serve him from his noble title, which pretty much all the Beast had over Gaston as both never really treated Belle with respect.

I actually wrote a paper on the Disney Princesses and found that Belle was the only one with a decent relationship, since her and the Beast basically existed outside of the social norms and expectations required of them by broader society. Every other princess has to overcome (not reverse structurally, but personally overcome) some sort of difficulty in terms of status or wealth in order to succeed in her relationship with her male counterpart; Aladdin must become a prince thanks to the Sultan's love of tradition; screw what Jasmine wants; Cinderella isn't worth a damn unless she becomes a wealthy princess; Ariel must choose between her native homeland and her love-never once is it considered that the Prince grow a fin and give up his legs; Mulan overcomes stereotypes, but does so by giving in to cultural norms relentlessly and ceding her female identity; I don't remember Sleeping Beauty much, but it seems she's not worth a damn unless a man gives her his affection. Belle and the Beast's relationship stands out as a phenomenon of pure personal affection by the end of the movie regardless of its patriarchal beginnings.

The question of unpaid labor is certainly one to ponder, but part of me thinks the Beast's claim to nobility is nullified and relations become more autonomous after everyone is turned into literal objects.

[Psy]

I actually wrote a paper on the Disney Princesses and found that Belle was the only one with a decent relationship, since her and the Beast basically existed outside of the social norms and expectations required of them by broader society. Every other princess has to overcome (not reverse structurally, but personally overcome) some sort of difficulty in terms of status or wealth in order to succeed in her relationship with her male counterpart; Aladdin must become a prince thanks to the Sultan's love of tradition; screw what Jasmine wants; Cinderella isn't worth a damn unless she becomes a wealthy princess; Ariel must choose between her native homeland and her love-never once is it considered that the Prince grow a fin and give up his legs; Mulan overcomes stereotypes, but does so by giving in to cultural norms relentlessly and ceding her female identity; I don't remember Sleeping Beauty much, but it seems she's not worth a damn unless a man gives her his affection. Belle and the Beast's relationship stands out as a phenomenon of pure personal affection by the end of the movie regardless of its patriarchal beginnings.

The question of unpaid labor is certainly one to ponder, but part of me thinks the Beast's claim to nobility is nullified and relations become more autonomous after everyone is turned into literal objects.
Yet Belle's town existed outside the social norms, their feudal lord was turned into a beast thus the town existed in feudal France yet had no direct feudal authority telling them what to do, or collecting their surplus labor. Then we have Belle favorite book being about a prince charming and getting taken in by the living wealth of the Beast.

Overthinking It did an analyst based on the film taking the point of view a delusional Belle. http://www.overthinkingit.com/2011/10/03/beauty-beast-stockholm-syndrome/

[RedSonRising]

Yet Belle's town existed outside the social norms, their feudal lord was turned into a beast thus the town existed in feudal France yet had no direct feudal authority telling them what to do, or collecting their surplus labor. Then we have Belle favorite book being about a prince charming and getting taken in by the living wealth of the Beast.

Overthinking It did an analyst based on the film taking the point of view a delusional Belle. http://www.overthinkingit.com/2011/10/03/beauty-beast-stockholm-syndrome/

The castle existed outside of social norms, not the town. The Beast obviously had to hunt and farm himself, since he can't get anything from the town; he's a grotesque monster and his "staff" are all household items who at this point probably run a cooperative-style model in the castle.

Belle reads in a town where gender roles dictate she be a docile and dependent housewife, and likes the Beast for his kindness, not his wealth. Though who could deny that performance of "Be Our Guest?"

I'll take a look at that link though.

[Psy]

The castle existed outside of social norms, not the town. The Beast obviously had to hunt and farm himself, since he can't get anything from the town; he's a grotesque monster and his "staff" are all household items who at this point probably run a cooperative-style model in the castle.

Belle reads in a town where gender roles dictate she be a docile and dependent housewife, and likes the Beast for his kindness, not his wealth. Though who could deny that performance of "Be Our Guest?"

I'll take a look at that link though.
The first novelization of the Beauty and the Beast came out in 1740 before even the US revolution. We also see Le Fou and Gaston mention thinking is a dangerous pastime, Gaston runs of the town able to bribe to get Maurice committed thus logically the only reason Le Fou and Gaston views thinking as dangerous in there a ruling class above them that they understand doesn't like the lesser classes thinking.

So what you have is a petite-beourgisie commune surrounded by French feudalism, thus in context the town is actually progressive compared to the rest of France at the time.

[RedSonRising]

The first novelization of the Beauty and the Beast came out in 1740 before even the US revolution. We also see Le Fou and Gaston mention thinking is a dangerous pastime, Gaston runs of the town able to bribe to get Maurice committed thus logically the only reason Le Fou and Gaston views thinking as dangerous in there a ruling class above them that they understand doesn't like the lesser classes thinking.

So what you have is a petite-beourgisie commune surrounded by French feudalism, thus in context the town is actually progressive compared to the rest of France at the time.

Interesting contextual info....does that make Belle's literary appetite and the Beast's lack of sexual opportunism revolutionary? (Trying to save at least one princess here.)

[Nox]

...No, I was referring to people here calling him a communist.

I know, in the film he is portrayed as communist though, there is subliminal anti-communist propaganda littered all over that film. Good film though.

[Psy]

Interesting contextual info....does that make Belle's literary appetite and the Beast's lack of sexual opportunism revolutionary? (Trying to save at least one princess here.)

What is Belle's literary appetite? She seems to have frequented the book store to the point even the merchant is no longer trying to make money off her. Also Belle seems to read fairy tales, we really don't get any indication she reads anything else i.e philosophy, we also don't see Belle have any carrier goals, she could become a novelist writing her own fairy tales but she doesn't seem to have any interest in production of utility (i.e being a worker).

Beast's lack of sexual opportunism is not really revolutionary as the Beast is a defeated feudal ruling class, that just wants thing to return to normality that would mean the Beast once again ruling over the town.

[RedSonRising]

What is Belle's literary appetite? She seems to have frequented the book store to the point even the merchant is no longer trying to make money off her. Also Belle seems to read fairy tales, we really don't get any indication she reads anything else i.e philosophy, we also don't see Belle have any carrier goals, she could become a novelist writing her own fairy tales but she doesn't seem to have any interest in production of utility (i.e being a worker).

Beast's lack of sexual opportunism is not really revolutionary as the Beast is a defeated feudal ruling class, that just wants thing to return to normality that would mean the Beast once again ruling over the town.

Well I'd be surprised if the man had a copy of Capital in there (and it was a library, I believe, as she always returned the books.) I don't think she could conceptualize career goals in her town because the work was alienating, the population was not progressive enough to overcome their sexist antagonistic attitude towards her, and social mobility wasn't quite a "thing" in Feudal Society, especially for women. If she wanted a Prince Charming, she would have married Gaston.

So you think the Beast went back to ruling over the town? I still think not taking advantage of her says something about his character.

[Psy]

Well I'd be surprised if the man had a copy of Capital in there (and it was a library, I believe, as she always returned the books.)

Given the petite-beourgisie nature of the town it would seem it is a book store that rents out books.




I don't think she could conceptualize career goals in her town because the work was alienating, the population was not progressive enough to overcome their sexist antagonistic attitude towards her, and social mobility wasn't quite a "thing" in Feudal Society, especially for women. If she wanted a Prince Charming, she would have married Gaston.

She couldn't write fairy tales because? The book publishing industry even by 1740 was totally dominated by capitalist firms, Belle would be talking with people that hired little girls because they were cheap labor, why would capitalists look at Belle and refuse to exploit her labor? We are talking about before the capitalist class assimilated traditional institutions thus were fighting against them.



So you think the Beast went back to ruling over the town?

With Gaston dead there is a power vacuum, and the French feudal system at the time was fighting for its life against the bourgeois in the large urban centers.



I still think not taking advantage of her says something about his character.
Yes but it doesn't really address the class struggle, one the Beast is absent from since he basically surrendered his power to the petite-bourgeoisie when turned into a beast and has yet to be challenged by the bourgeoisie.