Genetics

[Erratus]

So I run into the genetics argument a bit. I see it used for a wide range of things, from Capitalism, to euthanasia, to racism, to fascism.

"People get rich because they are smart (or whatever trait). Their children are also smart. Poor people aren't smart and neither are their children. That is why the upper class needs to stay rich and educated, it is just genetics."

"We need to monitor the gene pool. Some people shouldn't breed. It is just genetics."

I am wondering how you deal with the notion that some people are just genetically superior and should be given power to control us accordingly. Also, any scientific sources that explain otherwise would be very useful.

[The Young Pioneer]

Tell them that this frame of mind is what leads to eugenics stunts (such as the Rockefeller Foundation in the United States, which was proven to have FUNDED and INSPIRED those lovely fellows like Mengele in Nazi Germany).

[Black_Rose]

So I run into the genetics argument a bit. I see it used for a wide range of things, from Capitalism, to euthanasia, to racism, to fascism.

"People get rich because they are smart (or whatever trait). Their children are also smart. Poor people aren't smart and neither are their children. That is why the upper class needs to stay rich and educated, it is just genetics."

"We need to monitor the gene pool. Some people shouldn't breed. It is just genetics."

I am wondering how you deal with the notion that some people are just genetically superior and should be given power to control us accordingly. Also, any scientific sources that explain otherwise would be very useful.

I don't understand the context of the first quote. I am sure that there are some leftists who do believe in that privately, but do not say it in fear of being called a "reactionary" or providing support for a reactionary worldview.

The first quote by itself is merely an explanation of why some people and their offspring fail to advance within the capitalist system, despite its alleged opportunities its provides; it does not automatically justify the exploitative nature of capitalism. More often than not, people invoking that argument are reactionaries, and they are using it to justify, rather than just providing a dispassionate explanation, the poverty of the economically disenfranchised.

BTW, ask them for a genetic loci that has been demonstrated to influence variance (heritability) in general intelligence among the general population with genome-wide significance. I want my sexy p < 1.0 x 10-8.

[CommunityBeliever]

People get rich because they are smart

Hell no.

[Catma]

Simply start with trying to define intelligence. You can't come to a satisfactory answer. The whole discussion is a non-starter.

Ask them to point to demonstrable traits in rich people that make them deserving of wealth. You won't get any good answers. If you get an answer, you can find someone with the same trait is poor.

[piet11111]

Nikolai Tesla was a genius and dirt poor through out his live mostly because of his feud with Edison.

Also if someone is serious about eugenics i would like to point them towards the royal family's of Europe some very rich and powerful people that are also a bunch of inbreeders and have hereditary diseases like hemophilia porphyria and schizophrenia.
So please argue for their castration :thumbup1:

[Q]

There are two sides to this: The one side is that humans aren't just a product of their genes. This has already been pointed out by several posters, so I won't delve further upon it.

The other side however, is that selective breeding can have a result in making people smarter overall. Ashkenazi Jews for example have had such a selective breeding policy for the last two millennia and as a result are much smarter, overall, than the European average.

However, there is a downside to this too, which is an increase in diseases related to the brain and other nerve systems. I'll point to this article that recently hit the media (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2071721/How-clever-Study-suggests-upper-limit-smart-humans--good-thing-too.html) on this subject.

Long story short: Eugenics doesn't work as intended, not even considering all the moral and humanitarian implications.

[Ocean Seal]

So I run into the genetics argument a bit. I see it used for a wide range of things, from Capitalism, to euthanasia, to racism, to fascism.

"People get rich because they are smart (or whatever trait). Their children are also smart. Poor people aren't smart and neither are their children. That is why the upper class needs to stay rich and educated, it is just genetics."

People are different, but I don't think that you'll find anyone important arguing for euthanasia.
Racism, capitalism, and fascism on the other hand are different.

Most race genetics studies were conducted in an improper manner often sampling less than a few dozen people. There is no scientific argument here. Also look for a thread on this forum reading something like "the scientific racists"

Regarding capitalism. If someone makes the argument that rich people are smart generally one can assume that they are rich. So discussing communism with them is rather useless.

Regarding fascism. Same thing.



"We need to monitor the gene pool. Some people shouldn't breed. It is just genetics."

People like this are generally insecure. Emphasize one of their defects and they might rethink their platform.



I am wondering how you deal with the notion that some people are just genetically superior and should be given power to control us accordingly. Also, any scientific sources that explain otherwise would be very useful.

Ehh we were controlled by inbred monarchs for about a thousand years and that didn't turn out too bad.

[Lanky Wanker]

People get rich because they are smart

I suppose lottery winners are smart then... must be hard picking out all those random numbers and waiting for years.

[Tovarisch]

Not all rich people are smart, just look at Perez Hilton

[Q]

Not all rich people are smart, just look at Perez Hilton

What does poor old Perez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perez_Hilton) have to do with anything?

[NewLeft]

The revival of the biological explanation for the current class structure came from The Bell Curve. Apparently intelligence is the greatest marker of economic success, 60% of intelligence is inherited and blacks are less intelligent than whites, hence why they're poorer. A book that thoroughly combats this claim is Mismeasure of Man (by Gould), especially the second edition which specifically addresses what is rehashed in the Bell Curve. The gist of the refutation is that the Bell Curve is based on manipulated data and heavy bias towards the researchers’ prejudice and ideology. This is typical of scientific racists... Heck, remember that video by HeyRuka? Even her video was debunked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8RefZ1Hcvo).

[Homo Songun]

Ashkenazi Jews for example have had such a selective breeding policy for the last two millennia and as a result are much smarter, overall, than the European average.

Although notions like these are fairly prevalent in some of the more reactionary strains of prevailing bourgeois ideology, it doesn't stop it from being shaky science at best. In order for this to be true, you'd have to show that German Jews are in fact "much smarter" than the European average, whatever the hell "European" means, and then you'd have to show IQ is genetically determined in the final analysis, and then you'd have to prove that this "breeding" (ugh) you speak of is the operative factor in their being so "much smarter" than other Europeans. I'm pretty sure none of these things are conclusive facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence#Problems_with_the_ge netic_explanation

This paper seems to be the impetus for a lot of this trash, I ought to try to download it and check it out:

G. Cochran, J. Hardy, H. Harpending. "Natural History of Ashkenazi Intelligence" (http://harpending.humanevo.utah.edu/Documents/ashkiq.webpub.pdf), Journal of Biosocial Science 38 (5), pp. 659–693 (2006).

[Commissar Rykov]

Lets first prove that intelligence leads to wealth. I would like you to prove that Paris Hilton is smarter than your average Steel Worker, Auto Worker, Baker, Candlestick maker, etc. Capitalism is like a giant casino either you make it big via genetic lottery or luck in the market fluctuations or you work until your death as a wage slave.