The Impact of Numbers?

[The Young Pioneer]

I've retyped this question several times in an attempt to be sensitive with my wording. I don't want to be taken as some fascist Holocaust denier or something, so please know that my question comes from a well-intentioned but confused position:

What is the impact of numbers concerning tragic events?

For instance, it is widely accepted that 6 million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust, though there are arguments that testify lower and higher numbers. I've never done extensive research on it personally, and generally tend to accept the 6 million figure. But there are those that do argue different numbers vehemently, I'd like to know why.

Those who argue lower numbers are often accused of downplaying the tragedy. How does minimising numbers downplay a tragedy, assuming the numbers are based on legitimate research? Whether 5 people die or 10 people die in some terrible way, is the event not atrocious regardless?

Those who argue higher numbers are often accused of having an agenda against the perpetrators, to make their crimes more extensive. How does making a number bigger make something worse? The Holocaust was a gross injustice whether 6 million or 8 million Jewish people died.

And finally- who are we to believe? Everyone claiming some number bases it on some sort of research. But whose research is accurate? How can we possibly tell?

Again, I am NOT questioning that 6 million Jewish people died in the Holocaust, my question just needed an example for a more broad range of atrocities through human history. Many wars and massacres have number arguments among historians, this was just the easiest example to pose the question with.

Thanks for any and all feedback/thoughts. I sincerely ask this question with the hope it's not taken in a way that deems the asker discriminatory or nationalist or something. :confused:

[hatzel]

People just love numbers, to be honest. Numbers that they cannot even begin to fathom - what exactly does '6 million people' even mean? How many is that? Can we imagine such a vast number of people? I sincerely doubt it - somehow lend a certain illusion of understanding, a replacement for a genuine understanding. 'This event killed 10 000, this 100 000, this 1 000 000,' as if this now allows a certain comparison between the events, a ranking of atrocity. They're meaningless statistics, though, to be honest. They have significance only on paper, to boggle the mind marginally less than engaging with the events directly would.

[ColonelCossack]

No worries, you don't come off as ultra right wing or anythhing.

Generally, if something is backed up by more historical evidence (assuming that's also accurate), and if it is comprehensive and elaborates on itself, and if it is supported and supports other historical "facts", then it is more likely to be accurate- though this is, of course, by far not always the case.

It wasn't just the 6 million jews that died in the holocaust (a figure which is kind to the nazis); when you include all the communists, socialists, trade unionists, disabled people, homosexuals etc etc, then the figure is closer (or so I'vce heard) to 11 million, though this is probably kind as well. Also many, many soviet POWs died too.

Although, of course, the death of any number of people is a tragedy...

[Omsk]

Also many, many soviet POWs died too.



Now that you mentioned that: 3.5-5 million Soviet prisoners of war died in the nazi extermination camps.

The horror of the Nazi camps was unimaginable.They had food,but refused to give it to the Soviets,they threw food at them,and if the Soviets tried to take it,they would shoot them.

The Soviets were in both prisoner camps,and in extermination camps,but there was no real difference between these horrible places.

It was the worst genocide after the Holocaust.
Uncounted thousands died in the Stalags.

It is really hard for me to write about this..:(

[ColonelCossack]

Now that you mentioned that: 3.5-5 million Soviet prisoners of war died in the nazi extermination camps.

Is that on top of the 11 million? :bored:

There are absolutely no words.

[Rafiq]

Didn't like 27 million Soviets die?

[ColonelCossack]

Didn't like 27 million Soviets die?

Yeah, in the war. Does that just include the war (i.e. bombing, shooting etc.), or does that include the soviet POWs too?

I once saw a soviet-made film called "come and see" about the Nazis massacring civilians on enormous scales, so the deaths of soviets during that time period include deaths from the war, deaths in concentration camps, and veritable viking-style raping and pillaging.

[Omsk]

According to some sources,11 million civilians died (Holocaust).

In the east,the Einsatzgruppen der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD caused so much suffering and death,that a man cant imagine.In Babi Yar (33,771 were killed in two days)

The Einsatzgruppen exterminated Jews,communists and Slavs in the east.
They followed the Nazi Army and burned villages and killed all in their way.
The also hunted partisans.

Soviet military deaths:
8,800,000
to 10,700,000

Civilian: 15.000.000

14% of the population died.

@Cossack:POWs are included in the military deaths.

[ColonelCossack]

According to some sources,11 million civilians died.So the Soviet POW should probably go on top of that.

In the east,the Einsatzgruppen der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD caused so much suffering and death,that a man cant imagine.In Babi Yar (33,771 were killed in two days)

The Einsatzgruppen exterminated Jews,communists and Slavs in the east.
They followed the Nazi Army and burned villages and killed all in their way.
The also hunted partisans.



What's the figure for soviet soldiers (not including prisoners of war)? That is, those that died in the fighting?
It's really unimaginable.

Edit: Thanks Omsk

[hatzel]

Just thought I'd point out this thread isn't an excuse for people to rant and rave about how bad the various massacres of WWII were (stating the obvious much?!), nor is it about how bad this or that group had it during this period. The topic likes to be stayed on, capiche?

[Lanky Wanker]

Whether 5 people die or 10 people die in some terrible way, is the event not atrocious regardless?


Well what would you be more upset about: one friend/family member being killed, or more than half of your friends/family being massacred together?



Thanks for any and all feedback/thoughts. I sincerely ask this question with the hope it's not taken in a way that deems the asker discriminatory or nationalist or something. :confused:

Anyone who would label you as a nationalist for simply raising a decent point like this is an idiot, so don't worry about the disclaimers too much lol.

[Rafiq]

Just thought I'd point out this thread isn't an excuse for people to rant and rave about how bad the various massacres of WWII were (stating the obvious much?!), nor is it about how bad this or that group had it during this period. The topic likes to be stayed on, capiche?

I didn't ask if 27 million Soviets died out of putting a viel on the holocaust and its horrors.


To stay on topic, numbers in regards to the holocaust don't really matter, as we can't imagine 6 million people, let alone even 1 million or 10 million.

The point is the manner in which they were murdered, depicted, etc.

They don't call anti semitism ideological zero point for no reason, you know.

[The Young Pioneer]

**(Yes, there were many more victims of the Holocaust than just the Jewish population, the 6 mill statistic is just most familiar for use in my example.)


GK95- Either way, the tragedies I'm discussing had massive amounts of loss of life, and yes, every single one of those lost lives is a person with a family and a story. My question just comes from the fact that exact numbers are hard to prove and I don't understand those that get so tedious about inflating/deflating numbers. Most people seem to approve more of the inflation rather than the deflation, which seems to me a bit backwards and politically motivated.

Guys, I'm looking for opinions on that; not a discussion on quantitative data over specific historical atrocities, interesting as Soviet/Nazi death tolls may be. :rolleyes:

[Franz Fanonipants]

Scale is "important" or some shit.

As a historian myself, I use numbers and demographic stuff to derive a snapshot of a certain ecosystem or time via a methodology called prosopography.

Holocaust death toll numbers, though, are so huge that I honestly don't think comparing numbers of deaths does anything productive. Most of the holocaust/WWII historians I know have a v. ghoulish and ridiculous position on history.

[Omsk]

Guys, I'm looking for opinions on that; not a discussion on quantitative data over specific historical atrocities, interesting as Soviet/Nazi death tolls may be


This is an example of total disrepsect for the casualties and the horrors that happened.You cant joke with such things.




Most people seem to approve more of the inflation rather than the deflation, which seems to me a bit backwards and politically motivated.




Well,people who support the deflation in the cases like the Holocaust,are in most cases Neo-nazis or fascists.

[Psy]

And finally- who are we to believe? Everyone claiming some number bases it on some sort of research. But whose research is accurate? How can we possibly tell?

Well the official documents of the Nazi Party and German Army is a good start as the Third Reich assumed their fascist rule last a 1,000 years so they did actually document is own atrocities assuming even now in 2011 those documents would be locked up tight in Berlin where only Nazi with proper security clearance could view them.

Yet the numbers are a red herring, as the documents point that the ultimate goal of the Nazi's was to kill all the Jews in Europe so how many they actually were able to kill is beside the point as their intention was the total annihilation of European Jews. Thus all the numbers point to is how many Jews the Nazis were able to kill before they lost the war.

[piet11111]

Like Psy said that they managed to kill 6 million jews is less significant then the simple fact they intended to kill them all if they had the chance and that is the real horror of the Holocaust.

The number itself doesn't mean much to me but when i see a picture of the camps and the dead i feel sick to my stomach but i fear that over time they will eventually censor out these pictures from the school history books.
And by doing so turn it into just a statistic.

[Ocean Seal]

Look I don't think that hard-core Nazi's really care about the numbers. They pretty much think that killing anyone who was involved in the "Judeo-Boshevik-Banker" conspiracy deserves to die. That's the point that you have to undermine. That the deaths were because of a genocidal expansionist regime.

[The Young Pioneer]

This is an example of total disrepsect for the casualties and the horrors that happened.You cant joke with such things.

Not my intent to come across as joking.

My statement meant to speak more to the way this thread conversation was moving than to taking a light-hearted stance on victims of the second World War. I am sorry that my statement came across as disrespectful; it was not intentional.