Argh Christ! Someone from Occupy Bristol's joined the SEP

[Angry Young Man]

Now he's ultralefting all over the bloody place! Now we'll never be able to sort out all the crystal healers and yoga teachers!

Gah! I bloody told the local SP to get involved! Now we have the SEP alienating the working class and the hippies simultaneously. FFS!

[albE36]

Your claim that the SEP is an ultra leftist party is an absolute distortion of the truth and shows your absolute contempt for detailed analysis using the method of dialectics to assess the objective situation of the day. You know very well that at the time Trotsky wrote about organisations rejecting trade unionism as a valid working class organ with which to create agitation was written in 1938, when in fact trade union membership was at its historical peak. It is quite clear in Trotsky's writing that he also condemned union fetishism that is displayed so effectively in the SP, yet this sentence you choose to ignore and simply take facts that suit your ultra conservative view. Trotsky is quite clear that the changing objection conditions could result in the possibility that a direct break with Trade Unions may be required in the future. He also wrote a pamphlet in 1940 where the situation with the trade unions was becoming questionable and although he did not make the full break in this writing, perhaps had his untimely death not been bestowed on him we would have seen his dialectic approach in the analysis of Trade Unions reach the very same conclusion as the SEP. Union membership today is at its lowest in history - this is an objective truth and one has to wonder why the masses have turned from unions as a progressive force? The only thing alienating the working class, is the continued fetishism of it's so called leaders, toward Trade Unions and Fabian style reforms of a decaying system. Although Trade Unionism will hook you in with initial feelings of euphoria, ultimately it's poison barb lacerates all hope, only to produce further pain and misery. The treachery of the Unions is clear to see to even the least class conscious worker - the unions have failed to win a single struggle for the workers over the last quarter of a century. The situation today with the crisis over public and private sector pensions shows the absolute inability of the Unions to bring about a true struggle against the ruling strata but instead they act as the Police enforcers of class oppression.

The public meeting of various Union and "left" organisations, including the SP on the 14th January showed the absolute failure of these organisations to be able to take on the fight for the workers. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jan2012/pens-j21.shtml [/B]- I suggest you read what your own esteemed leader is saying with great trepidation at the possibility unions membership could be hammered as workers are forced to create their own independant rank and file comittees to take their struggle forward. Fear, fear of the workers breaking free how on earth can you continue to justify the unions as a force to manage working class issues? Those charlatans who propagate such tactics and profess to be defenders of the working class, are in actuality nothing more than the lieutenants of capitalist interest. History has clearly shown us that when it comes to capitalism, there can be no compromise

Your absolute inability to think about the objective dialectically and remain in bed with the unions shows how far from Marxist principles your party has drifted.

[A Marxist Historian]

Your claim that the SEP is an ultra leftist party is an absolute distortion of the truth and shows your absolute contempt for detailed analysis using the method of dialectics to assess the objective situation of the day. You know very well that at the time Trotsky wrote about organisations rejecting trade unionism as a valid working class organ with which to create agitation was written in 1938, when in fact trade union membership was at its historical peak. It is quite clear in Trotsky's writing that he also condemned union fetishism that is displayed so effectively in the SP, yet this sentence you choose to ignore and simply take facts that suit your ultra conservative view. Trotsky is quite clear that the changing objection conditions could result in the possibility that a direct break with Trade Unions may be required in the future. He also wrote a pamphlet in 1940 where the situation with the trade unions was becoming questionable and although he did not make the full break in this writing, perhaps had his untimely death not been bestowed on him we would have seen his dialectic approach in the analysis of Trade Unions reach the very same conclusion as the SEP. Union membership today is at its lowest in history - this is an objective truth and one has to wonder why the masses have turned from unions as a progressive force? The only thing alienating the working class, is the continued fetishism of it's so called leaders, toward Trade Unions and Fabian style reforms of a decaying system. Although Trade Unionism will hook you in with initial feelings of euphoria, ultimately it's poison barb lacerates all hope, only to produce further pain and misery. The treachery of the Unions is clear to see to even the least class conscious worker - the unions have failed to win a single struggle for the workers over the last quarter of a century. The situation today with the crisis over public and private sector pensions shows the absolute inability of the Unions to bring about a true struggle against the ruling strata but instead they act as the Police enforcers of class oppression.

The public meeting of various Union and "left" organisations, including the SP on the 14th January showed the absolute failure of these organisations to be able to take on the fight for the workers. http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jan2012/pens-j21.shtml [/B]- I suggest you read what your own esteemed leader is saying with great trepidation at the possibility unions membership could be hammered as workers are forced to create their own independant rank and file comittees to take their struggle forward. Fear, fear of the workers breaking free how on earth can you continue to justify the unions as a force to manage working class issues? Those charlatans who propagate such tactics and profess to be defenders of the working class, are in actuality nothing more than the lieutenants of capitalist interest. History has clearly shown us that when it comes to capitalism, there can be no compromise

Your absolute inability to think about the objective dialectically and remain in bed with the unions shows how far from Marxist principles your party has drifted.

Right. And besides, if the unions get out of hand, how can Dave North's printing company make a decent profit? And if it doesn't, who will pay the bills for the wsws website?

-M.H.-

[blake 3:17]

Although Trade Unionism will hook you in with initial feelings of euphoria,

Wow!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Sorry, what is the point in this thread?

A guy from an irrelevant party trying to somehow re-awaken a quasi-Leninist spirit by chastising ultra-leftism, whatever that may be?

Fucking idiotic is what this is. Why don't you do something productive about this, if you think something needs to be done, instead of starting some bullshit thread on here?

[albE36]

I am doing lots of constructive actions but I wont let someone from the SP sit in his bedroom hideaway making false claims, distortions of truth - just because the conservative party he opted for has a total inability to actually win the workers over. Your right he should consider he parties ideology and wonder why he even considers himself revolutionary?

[albE36]

Is that it? Is that the best you can come up with? Have you even looked into the conditions of the workers at this plant? They don't need a union it is democratically run by the workers, by de facto for the workers. They work a 4 day week on FT pay and their pay is way above what your pathetic unions offer the workers - deal to the lowest bidder! So what exactly was your problem again? That a genuine revolutionary party is exposing the police force of unions for what they are? Pathetic and if you call yourself a marxist you should be ashamed of yourself for propping up the bourgeois propoganda

[PhoenixAsh]

Can somebody explain what the hell is going on in this thread? Who is doing what now and where and why? And why is this a bad thing?

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Can somebody explain what the hell is going on in this thread? Who is doing what now and where and why? And why is this a bad thing?
Two Trotskyist political parties feuding

[o well this is ok I guess]

Trade Unionism will hook you in with initial feelings of euphoria but after the first hit you'll need to get more in order to experience the same euphoric sensation.

[blake 3:17]

In my years as a trade unionist, euphoria wasn't something I felt too too often. Once in a blue moon, but otherwise...

[blake 3:17]

Apologies for the double post.

Fucking idiotic is what this is. Why don't you do something productive about this, if you think something needs to be done, instead of starting some bullshit thread on here?

Not cool. This board is a place for us folks with some kind of shared vision(s), to come together and discuss theoretical and practical issues to do with revolutionary politics. And also just bounce ideas around, and often vent.

I'm quite grateful to the OP for raising the issue -- I've no idea if I were there. This thread isn't oppressing anyone.

[albE36]

I cant explain no - I was responding to the accusations about David North and his profits and the total lack of revolutionary perspective being put forward by the SP.

@ Blake - 30th Nov was probably Euphoric but the workers were betrayed (Again) within weeks of this. The point I am trying to raise is that the Unions are not to be trusted as a workers movement they are no longer able to meet the workers demands and that as a Marxist everyone should analyse the situation and the changing forces. The SP like to hide behind trade unionism and it is this very act that is strangling the workers so how can they call themselves revolutionaries when they suppress workers consciousness? For this I get some childish comments back about David North, his printing business and the WSWS. Do people have an issue with the fact that the WSWS is in fact the largest Socialist publication on the Internet? They take offense at a a truly global Marxist publication and still claim themselves to be Marxists? Contradictions everywhere and I am just highlighting them if people are offended, then well quite frankly tough!

[A Marxist Historian]

Is that it? Is that the best you can come up with? Have you even looked into the conditions of the workers at this plant? They don't need a union it is democratically run by the workers, by de facto for the workers. They work a 4 day week on FT pay and their pay is way above what your pathetic unions offer the workers - deal to the lowest bidder! So what exactly was your problem again? That a genuine revolutionary party is exposing the police force of unions for what they are? Pathetic and if you call yourself a marxist you should be ashamed of yourself for propping up the bourgeois propoganda

Well, when my job as a printer got automated nearly a decade ago, union scale for printers where I was working ranged from $28 to $32 bucks an hour, and workers with particular skills made more. Five weeks vacation a year, 100% paid Kaiser, truly excellent union run pension plan, etc. etc. Since then I assume it's gone up, for the extremely few employees left, typography having been by now basically automated out of existence.

And, oh yeah, the union negotiated for me a truly excellent buyout. But I won't give the details, to keep from being thrown off Revleft as a labor aristocrat.

Is North paying his employees that much? I have my doubts.

And even if he is, that's the classic trick of certain employers who happen to be making good money, pay the employees over union scale so as to discourage them from joining the union. Then, once the danger of unionization is over...

-M.H.-