How much better is the EU than the US?

[Scrooge]

Sorry for the simple title, I'm wondering how much better it is to be an average worker in the European nations than in the United States. I know it depends on the country, but in general. It seems like all we hear in the states is about how European workers have higher wages, work fewer hours, have better working conditions, etc. For example, Germany has mandatory workers councils, France has 5 weeks paid vacation mandatory for every worker, Norway has 100% paid sick leave for every worker, mandatory pensions, etc.

Much/most of Europe seems like a paradise in comparison. What are your thoughts?

[Blake's Baby]

The US has minimum wage laws that many European countries don't, much lower prices for most things, lower unemployment than many European countries, and it's hard to move around the EU compared to moving around the US... don't be fooled. Europe is just as shit as the US. Just in different ways.

[Sam_b]

I'm always puzzled as to why Americans just lump everything all together as 'Europe'.

Also OP it should be pointed out that there's a big difference between "the European nations" and the EU, namely that not all European countries participate and that there are different layers of bureaucracy and federalism.

[Renegade Saint]

Sorry for the simple title, I'm wondering how much better it is to be an average worker in the European nations than in the United States. I know it depends on the country, but in general. It seems like all we hear in the states is about how European workers have higher wages, work fewer hours, have better working conditions, etc. For example, Germany has mandatory workers councils, France has 5 weeks paid vacation mandatory for every worker, Norway has 100% paid sick leave for every worker, mandatory pensions, etc.

Much/most of Europe seems like a paradise in comparison. What are your thoughts?
Well, Norway isn't an EU member for one.

And it varies from country to country. I'd rather be an average worker in the US than in, say, Spain right now.

Of course, this will all be moot when the Euro collapses.

[Blake's Baby]

Well, Norway isn't an EU member for one...

Not sure the OP mentioned the EU at all.

[hatzel]

Not sure the OP mentioned the EU at all.

Except for in the thread title :lol: But this takes us right back to Sam_b's post...

[X5N]

Western and Northern European countries typically have progressive social policies, such as providing a basic income, and even free tertiary education in some countries. However, there's quite a bit of racism. Geert Wilders' brownshirts are rising to power in the Netherlands, and several countries have burqa bans. So in that respect it's not really that much better than the U.S.

Also, Western/Northern Europe isn't as red-phobic as the U.S. And most of Europe isn't as militaristic.

[The Young Pioneer]

I don't think you can generalise Europe, inside the EU or otherwise. For instance, there's a stark contrast between current conditions in Bulgaria to Greece, though both are neighbouring EU countries. That's like assuming the US and Mexico are better collectively in general, which makes no sense.

I have to agree with what MKN said.

I'm not sure what Blake's Baby meant by "harder to move around" the EU, but for those member nations who've been in the EU for a long time, it's quite simple and there aren't even passport checks across the borders. That said, the year Romania became EU there were still border stops between them and Hungary that took longer than necessary (we were only crossing the border to buy cheaper gas- Something Americans due across state lines :lol: ), but eh.

[Scrooge]

Obviously I realize that there is a difference between countries in Europe. If you really want me to be specific: comparing the U.S. to Germany, France, Norway, Sweden. Those countries have comparable or lower unemployment rates to the U.S., work fewer hours, offer more benefits, etc.

[Blake's Baby]

Except for in the thread title :lol: But this takes us right back to Sam_b's post...

You're quite right. I missed that bit, when I went back to look I only checked the post.

I think a :blushing: is probably in order.


Obviously I realize that there is a difference between countries in Europe. If you really want me to be specific: comparing the U.S. to Germany, France, Norway, Sweden. Those countries have comparable or lower unemployment rates to the U.S., work fewer hours, offer more benefits, etc.

Germany has no minimum wage. France has much lower wages than the US. Almost all European countries are vastly more expensive than the US. Have you any idea how much petrol costs over here? In Norway I'm somewhat reliably informed, the only relatively inexpensive things are electricity and milk.

[red revolution 23]

EU still blows; it's still capitalism and exploits workers.

[The Young Pioneer]

This article may give some perspective on how one American perceived the EU when he moved there as a worker.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/magazine/03european-t.html

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

This article may give some perspective on how one American perceived the EU when he moved there as a worker.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/magazine/03european-t.html

lol NYT.


I felt a chorus of voices rise up within my soul, none of which I knew I had internalized, each a ghostly simulacrum of a right-wing, supply-side icon: Ronald Reagan, Jack Kemp, Rush Limbaugh. The grim words this chorus chanted in defense of my hard-earned income I recognized as copied from Charlton Heston’s N.R.A. rallying cry about prying his gun from his cold, dead hands.


The US has minimum wage laws that many European countries don't, much lower prices for most things, lower unemployment than many European countries, and it's hard to move around the EU compared to moving around the US... don't be fooled. Europe is just as shit as the US. Just in different ways.

The prices are kind of variable - Norway has absurd prices for example, due to the presence of oil money, a lot of household items are almost twice as expensive in Norway as in Sweden - there's a lot of Norwegians going shopping in the border regions as a result. Prices of general food are not often much more expensive than in the U.S. from what I've seen of prices, and when it comes to rents for housing, the United States seems more expensive than I am used to seeing. This whole nonsense about idiotic cultural differences and trying to blather on about what "americans" find annoying about "europe" is profoundly annoying and unproductive, seeing as both places has such an enormous variation that any outright categorisation is doomed to utter failure. Though the love for single family housing in the U.S. is sure horrible - but it's pretty bad in Europe these days too, if less love for "home-ownership", thankfully, but give that some time and it will be indistinguishable.

[The Young Pioneer]

lol NYT.

Laugh if you want, but the OP asked for a difference and there's a worker's testimony from an American to European perspective. Sorry if you didn't see it that way. :confused:

In *my* experience and opinion (and without trying to make too broad a statement about this), standard of living is relatively better in most areas of the EU for a larger amount of people than in the US. It seems (from what I have observed firsthand in each) that the gap between the classes is much wider in America than in EU countries.

Now, would my upper class American friends be happy living in a one bedroom apartment with free medical care and education, when they're used to living in some 3-story house, medical care at the top facilities (wherein their insurance bracket accounts for all their necessities down to being able to write off deodorant), while learning in some posh university that only the rich can afford? They're the ones who would see something wrong with European standard of living, not the average worker. IMHO.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Laugh if you want, but the OP asked for a difference and there's a worker's testimony from an American to European perspective. Sorry if you didn't see it that way.

Now, would my upper class American friends be happy living in a one bedroom apartment with free medical care and education, when they're used to living in some 3-story house, medical care at the top facilities (wherein their insurance bracket accounts for all their necessities down to being able to write off deodorant), while learning in some posh university that only the rich can afford? They're the ones who would see something wrong with European standard of living, not the average worker. IMHO.

I see some fairly well-off person (worker though he might be, classes, divided, 'middle-class', mumbojumbo, etc) whining and moaning in classic tax-theft manners, that's what I see in that NYT piece.

As for the rest - those things are not absent from Europe. There was just a time when more concessions were made to the working class than there was in the United States, but they're all being undone as fast as possible. There's countless enormous mansions in exclusive districts for the wealthy, private clinics with no queues for the elite and wealthy to bypass public health care, and there are posh universities all around where no one but the wealthy would afford to study. There's little difference in this regard between the two, though Europe might have a better basal level to some extent, but beyond this...

[ColonelCossack]

I've never been to the US, so i can't really make a good comparison, but I wouldn't think that there's an enormous difference in material conditions, the largest difference in my opinion being "universal" health care- though it can only go downhill, because fascism is capitalism in decay- though of course we don't have fascism.

[Lanky Wanker]

and it's hard to move around the EU compared to moving around the US...

Well, moving countries is always going to be harder than moving cities/towns/states, isn't it? And I thought it must pretty easy to move within the EU, even from outside of it, hence the number of immigrants in European countries like Sweden and the UK.

[Blake's Baby]

Or, Danmark, which has border controls that limit the number of EU nationals? I can just see Texas saying 'hell no we don't want no Nebraskans and Dakotans...' and setting quotas. Have you ever heard the expression 'Fortress Europe'? Google it. Do some research. Then ask yourself how easy it might be to get in to the EU.

[Nox]

For the average worker, the quality of life here in Europe is generally better, although it varies from area to area - some countries are absolute shit whereas others are much better.

[Blake's Baby]

And you're basing that on what?

Workers in the US have a higher standard of living than almost any European country. The only EU countries I could find with a higher standard of living were Luxermburg, Sweden, Belgium and Ireland - all with very small populations. That means Germany, France, UK, Italy (combined populations about equal to US) all have lower standards of living and therefore the vast majority of the EU has a lower average standard of living than the US average. Norway and Iceland also had higher standards of living but again these are countries with small populations (and are outside the EU to boot).

So I think we can answer the original question "How much better is the EU than the US?" with the reply, "about -25% better, or as we used to call it, about 25% worse".

[Bronco]

And you're basing that on what?

Workers in the US have a higher standard of living than almost any European country. The only EU countries I could find with a higher standard of living were Luxermburg, Sweden, Belgium and Ireland - all with very small populations. That means Germany, France, UK, Italy (combined populations about equal to US) all have lower standards of living and therefore the vast majority of the EU has a lower average standard of living than the US average. Norway and Iceland also had higher standards of living but again these are countries with small populations (and are outside the EU to boot).

So I think we can answer the original question "How much better is the EU than the US?" with the reply, "about -25% better, or as we used to call it, about 25% worse".

How is that measured, GDP per capita?

[Blake's Baby]

No, UN's 'Human Development Index'.

Only I realised I wasn't using the 2011 figures (which might mean Iceland gone down, for instance).

I'm assuming we'd agree that the UN is as close as we can get to an independant and verifiable source. Can't think of any reason why they'd want to big up the US for instance, given America's rocky relationship with the UN. If anything, I'd think they'd be over-egging the case for Sweden, Switzerland etc. Not that I think they are. But I can't imagine there's a lot of pro-American bias in the UN statistical departments.