Back from the dead

[Qayin]

Quit this forum I think beginning of last summer, since then I have helped organized #OccupyPhoenix, visited all the notable CA Occupations to attend the CAL general strike (saw SD,LA,CAL,SF,OO) and became a member of the PSL after meeting and hanging out with the SF branch then going to the conference in LA and hanging out with them and staying with Michael Prysner for a few days. Now im back and im the PSL Cadre. Wuddup

[danyboy27]

still an anarchist?

[Qayin]

Obviously not

[danyboy27]

Obviously not

http://bluntobject.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/get-off-my-lawn.jpg?w=655

[Qayin]

Dude add my steam again haha

[danyboy27]

Dude add my steam again haha


for some reason i cant remember your personal info to add you, send me a PM.

[Susurrus]

Lol, how did OWS turn you into an M-L?

[Steve_j]

Lol, how did OWS turn you into an M-L?
Do i smell horizontal recruitment?

[Qayin]

Lol, how did OWS turn you into an M-L?

I've been wanting to join before Occupy was around.

[Obs]

You picked a hell of a time to come back.

[Qayin]

Just finding out about whats going on, wtf

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Didn't you leave because you were pissed off that people were against the Libyan rebels, and now you're a tendency that hates them passionately?
(assuming you're picking stereotypes on leftist ideologies :laugh:)

well, anyway, welcome back!

[Qayin]

Didn't you leave because you were pissed off that people were against the Libyan rebels, and now you're a tendency that hates them passionately?
I was wrong about it, I jumped the gun on the arab spring. I wont make that mistake again(Syria)

[Sam_b]

Think you just did by becoming a member of a crazy organisation, at least in the eyes of anarchists.

[Qayin]

Think you just did by becoming a member of a crazy organisation.
No

Being an anarchist was fun in High School, time to get serious.

[Red Commissar]

Oh wow, a while back we had a similarly aged user go from ML to Anarchist citing the same reasons (to get serious, I was wrong, etc...) :laugh:

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Being an anarchist was fun in High School, time to get serious.
The final nail in the coffin: the infamous one-liner from ML's!!!1!!!!!

/shrug
A lot of M-L say that. I was the opposite/vice-versa. We all develop in different ways, I suppose.

[khlib]

welcome back

[The Douche]

Despite what I think are really immature politics in the PSL, I will say that the people I have met from the organization are really, and genuinely nice people.

[La Comédie Noire]

While I don't agree with you theoretically, I can't say I don't respect your level of action and hope it guides you to better theory.

[Ismail]

A lot of M-L say that. I was the opposite/vice-versa. We all develop in different ways, I suppose.What sort of "Marxist-Leninist" were you? Maoist? Brezhnevite?

[Qayin]

Brezhnevite
That exists?

[Ismail]

That exists?Yes. The PSL are Brezhnevites, as are FRSO and the WWP.

[Qayin]

The PSL are Brezhnevites
Prove that.

[Ismail]

Prove that.Do they denounce the reactionary and social-imperialist Soviet Union of the 1950's onwards, which under Khrushchev, Brezhnev, and subsequent leaders pursued an anti-communist foreign and domestic policy? Do they denounce the revisionist stands of the PCC and the WPK? Those are good starting points for evaluating what is and what isn't a Brezhnevite party. Of course there are some Maoists out there who are practically Brezhnevites as well, e.g. the FRSO.

[Qayin]

social-imperialist
So your anti-maoist but you use there terms?

We at the PSL uphold any nation fighting against imperialism and uphold any socialist revolution that does not mean we are not critical of them such as the DPRK and the USSR when it existed, hell even Albania. When you start denouncing countries you sound like a trot who denounces the USSR after Lenin.

[Ismail]

So your anti-maoist but you use there terms?Hoxha himself used the term.

Hoxha in 1979 in his open letter (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hoxha/works/stalin/intro.htm) to the Soviet people (among various other instances where he used it):

A gang of overlords has turned your country into a social-imperialist power. The road to salvation is that of the revolution which Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin have taught us. The Brezhnevs, Kosygins, Ustinovs and Yakubovskys, like the Solzhenitsyns and Sakharovs, are counterrevolutionaries and as such must be overthrown and liquidated. You are a great power, but you have to regain the trust of the world proletariat, the trust of the peoples of the world, that great trust that Lenin and Stalin created through work and struggle. You must not delay reflecting deeply about your future and that of mankind. The time has come for you to become what you were when Lenin and Stalin were alive-glorious participants in the proletarian revolution. Therefore, you must not remain under the yoke of enemies of the revolution and the peoples, enemies of the freedom and independence of states. You must never allow yourselves to become tools of an imperialism which is seeking to enslave the peoples, using Leninism as a mask. If you follow the road of the revolution and Marxism-Leninism, if you link yourselves closely with the world proletariat, then American imperialism and the decaying capitalism in general will be shaken to their very foundations, the face of the world will be changed and socialism will triumph. You, the Soviet peoples, Soviet workers, collective farmers and soldiers, have great responsibilities and duties to mankind. You can perform these duties honourably by refusing to tolerate the domination of the barbarous clique which now prevails over the once glorious Bolshevik Party of Lenin and Stalin and over you. In your country the party is no longer a Marxist-Leninist party. You must build a new party of the Lenin-Stalin type through struggle.....

In this glorious work you will have the support of all the peoples of the world and the world proletariat. The strength of the ideas of socialism and communism is based on this revolutionary overthrow and not on the empty words and underhand actions of the clique ruling you. Only in this way, proceeding on this course, will the genuine communists, the Marxist-Leninists everywhere in the world, be able to defeat imperialism and world capitalism. They will assist the peoples of the world to liberate themselves, one after the other, will assist great China to set out on the genuine road to socialism and not become a superpower so that it, too, can rule the world, by transforming itself into a third partner in the predatory wars which American imperialism, Soviet social-imperialism and the clique of Hua Kuo-feng and Teng Hsiao-ping which is ruling in China at present, are preparing.

In this glorious jubilee, we Albanian communists, as loyal pupils of Lenin and Stalin and soldiers of the revolution, remind you to think over these problems, vital to you and the world ' because we are your brothers, your comrades in the cause of the proletarian revolution and the liberation of the peoples. If you follow the road of the predatory, imperialist war, on which your renegade leaders are taking you, then, without doubt, we shall remain enemies of your system and your counterrevolutionary actions. This is as clear as the light of the day. It cannot be otherwise.
We at the PSL uphold any nation fighting against imperialism and uphold any socialist revolution that does not mean we are not critical of them such as the DPRK and the USSR when it existed, hell even Albania. When you start denouncing countries you sound like a trot who denounces the USSR after Lenin.We of course oppose imperialism, but the USSR was not fighting imperialism. The DPRK is subjected to imperialism whereas the USSR was a social-imperialist power which at various times collaborated with the USA under the banner of "peaceful coexistence."

[Fawkes]

Quit this forum I think beginning of last summer, since then I have organized #OccupyPhoenix, visited all the notable CA Occupations to attend the CAL general strike (saw SD,LA,CAL,SF,OO) and became a member of the PSL after meeting and hanging out with the SF branch then going to the conference in LA and hanging out with them and staying with Michael Prysner for a few days. Now im back and im the PSL Cadre of Phoenix. Wuddup

I strongly oppose your choice of political organizations, but big ups on all the activity.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Hoxha himself used the term.

Hoxha in 1979 in his open letter (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hoxha/works/stalin/intro.htm) to the Soviet people (among various other instances where he used it):
We of course oppose imperialism, but the USSR was not fighting imperialism. The DPRK is subjected to imperialism whereas the USSR was a social-imperialist power which at various times collaborated with the USA under the banner of "peaceful coexistence."
And china ended up allying with imperialists against the SU just after the split between albania and china, no?

peaceful coexistence was a double edged sword.

you saw western communist parties falter because of kruschevite parliamentarism but at the same time the SU up until the end was supporting national liberation struggles.


Indeed the SU was chauvanistic towards other nations even under stalin (especially regarding china) but nevertheless, even in the worst of times politically up until gorbachev, the SU still did support NLFs.

[Ismail]

And china ended up allying with imperialists against the SU just after the split between albania and china, no?No, Mao aligned China with US imperialism before the split. Subsequently, that was a major reason for the split. Hoxha wrote a private letter to the CCP shortly after Nixon's visit, noting that the CCP had not consulted the Party of Labour of Albania on the occasion and strongly disagreed with the decision to invite Nixon in any case.


you saw western communist parties falter because of kruschevite parliamentarism but at the same time the SU up until the end was supporting national liberation struggles.Only those struggles which were willing to open up their countries to Soviet neo-colonialism. Khrushchev had no problem with the suppression of the Algerian anti-colonial movement by France or allowing US imperialism under the mask of the UN to get rid of Lumumba in the Congo.


Indeed the SU was chauvanistic towards other nations even under stalin (especially regarding china)That's wrong. Hoxha noted that experience showed that Stalin was entirely right to distrust the CCP and Mao, and to suspect them of harboring quasi-Titoist stands.

[Rusty Shackleford]

geopolitical puritanism is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.


Unlike albania, Cuba didnt raise a shit storm over things driving wedges between socialist nations even after shit deals. Cuba was pissed about the missile crisis being used only to remove us missiles from turkey and not even mentioning guantanamo but at the same time still went under the nose of the ussr to send assistance to angola and other places.

things dont develop at the same speed and never is a revolution the same as another. different characteristics come out of them and therefore develop the way a government handles the international scene after its revolution.

[Qayin]

Why does this shit matter?

[NoOneIsIllegal]

What sort of "Marxist-Leninist" were you? Maoist? Brezhnevite?
None. I was a Marxist.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Why does this shit matter?
Now I remember why I like you. :cool:

[Rusty Shackleford]

Why does this shit matter?
today, most of it doesnt. :lol:

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Just as Stalin made deals with Nazi Germany and the USA during WWII, Brezhnev et. al were bureaucrats looking for room to maneuver. Sometimes the things they did were good (e.g., giving arms to North Vietnam, giving Cuba major economic aid) and many were deplorable (e.g., suppression of the Hungarian uprising in 1956). It is easy to count the betrayals of the Soviet bureaucracy post-Stalin, but just as easy (or even easier, perhaps) to count the betrayals of the world revolution by Papa Joe.

But we have to get away from the idealism of the MLs and down to real Marxist dialectics. To argue that Kruschev's secret speech denouncing Stalinism restored capitalism in the USSR is blind idealism. What about the class nature of the state? The organization of production? These things did not change at that time. It was in 1991 that capitalism was restored. Just as introduction of certain aspects of capitalism does not mean that a country is capitalist, so is it true that nationalizing some parts of an economy and instituting some social reforms does not in any way mean that a country is a worker's state (e.g., Venezuela).

[Ismail]

Just as Stalin made deals with Nazi Germany and the USA during WWII, Brezhnev et. al were bureaucrats looking for room to maneuver.The Soviets signed a treaty with the Nazis because Britain and France weren't particularly interested in curtailing the aggressive actions of Nazi Germany. Arguing that the Khrushchevites and the Brezhnevites were merely seeking to "maneuver" is as ridiculous as the Maoist stalwarts who defend Mao's "Three Worlds Theory" and argue that Mao was merely "dividing the imperialist camp."


Sometimes the things they did were good (e.g., giving arms to North Vietnam, giving Cuba major economic aid)Vietnam followed the Soviets onwards toward open capitalist restoration, with only miniscule "socialist" rhetoric left. The Soviets also turned Cuba into a Soviet neo-colony that was dependent on sugar exports.


and many were deplorable (e.g., suppression of the Hungarian uprising in 1956).Hoxha noted that his warnings on Hungary were ignored by Hungarian and Soviet officials, who before the uprising called for "socialist legality" and acted as if Imre Nagy and Co. were "honest communists" harmed by "Stalinism" and Rákosi. Hoxha plainly said to Hungarian officials, "Have some of the leaders of these counter-revolutionaries shot to teach them what the dictatorship of the proletariat is." (The Khrushchevites, p. 268), but then Hoxha noted that said officials look at him as if he hailed from Mars. Hoxha's analysis was proven correct, as usual.

The deplorable action was for the Khrushchevites to promote "Goulash socialism" in Hungary and to liquidate the Party in Hungary and to replace it with an entirely revisionist one.


To argue that Kruschev's secret speech denouncing Stalinism restored capitalism in the USSR is blind idealism.Indeed, good thing no one does that. It did, of course, represent the triumph of revisionism within the Party, and it is quite appropriate for an ex-Trotskyist (http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv1n2/chuyev.htm) like Khrushchev to have denounced "Stalinism."


What about the class nature of the state? The organization of production? These things did not change at that time.That's a lie. In the first place as soon as Stalin died Gosplan began facing "reforms," and the machine-tractor stations (which Albania retained to the end) were disbanded in 1957 because they allegedly showed Stalin's "distrust" of the peasant masses: http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv2n1/20inter.htm


geopolitical puritanism is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.Good thing Marxist-Leninists don't rely on geo-political arguments. We rely on revolution.


things dont develop at the same speed and never is a revolution the same as another. different characteristics come out of them and therefore develop the way a government handles the international scene after its revolution."There is nothing unknown about what socialism is, what it represents and what it brings about, how it is achieved and how socialist society is built. A theory and practice of scientific socialism exists. Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin teach us this theory. We find the practice of it in that rich experience of the construction of socialism in the Soviet Union in the time of Lenin and Stalin, and we find it today in Albania, where the new society is being built according to the teachings of Marxism-Leninism.

Of course, as Lenin said, socialism will look different and will have its own special features in different countries as a result of the differing socio-economic conditions, the way in which the revolution is carried out, the traditions, the international circumstances, etc. But the basic principles and the universal laws of socialism remain unshakeable and are essential for all countries." - Enver Hoxha, Report to the 8th Congress of the Party of Labour of Albania, November 1, 1981.

This does not in any way justify rightist stands either internationally or domestically.


Why does this shit matter?It matters for the same reason the struggle against reformism matters. It is vital to distinguish between socialism and state-capitalism, and to have correct Marxist-Leninist lines on national and international affairs.

[Qayin]

It matters for the same reason the struggle against reformism matters. It is vital to distinguish between socialism and state-capitalism, and to have correct Marxist-Leninist lines on national and international affairs.
What party, organization, or struggle are you involved with?

[Ismail]

What party, organization, or struggle are you involved with?I'm not a member of a party. There hasn't been a pro-Hoxha party in the US since the 80's. There's the USMLO, but I'm not sure what they do anymore.

On "Occupy Wall Street" RevLeft user PF made a great post on it when it was just getting started: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2269900&postcount=13

As a note, here's a good, short read on 1980's Cuban state-capitalism and Soviet neo-colonialism in Cuba from the PLP: http://www.mediafire.com/?5ea8t9u36tv0und

[Qayin]

If people spent as much time organizing and getting active as they did defending some line no one really gives a damn about we would be in a better position. Ismail you are a smart guy, I know there must be some place you should be besides critiquing posts on the chat board.


On "Occupy Wall Street" RevLeft user PF made a great post on it when it was just getting started: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.p...0&postcount=13 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2269900&postcount=13)I Don't really give a damn about this persons opinion after witnessing and organizing many of the occupations. Critiques and staying home while people attempt to build a visible resistance is such a copout its disgusting. How many years has it been since there has been visible, vague but noticeable rhetoric against the bourgeoisie? Or such a large scale decentralized movement that everyone is talking about that is creating general strikes, university activism, spurring class consciousness, getting labor to come out. You Hoxhaists should be right there in the struggle educating people, hosting public forums, and blog less.


It matters for the same reason the struggle against reformism matters. It is vital to distinguish between socialism and state-capitalism, and to have correct Marxist-Leninist lines on national and international affairs.
If your not even active why does it matter? Its just theoretical masturbation. Maybe create your own party and organize around were you live.

[Ismail]

If people spent as much time organizing and getting active as they did defending some line no one really gives a damn about we would be in a better position.The "line" in question is Marxism-Leninism.


How many years has it been since there has been visible, vague but noticeable rhetoric against the bourgeoisie?I don't think "99%" versus the "1%" is meaningful rhetoric. Anti-capitalist sentiment is good, but "Occupy Wall Street" has to be seen as a liberal movement despite the fact that a few individuals can be won over to socialism.


Or such a large scale decentralized movement that everyone is talking about that is creating general strikes, university activism, spurring class consciousness, getting labor to come out."General strikes" like what? The "Occupy" movement is hardly a working-class movement. I've seen no noticeable general strikes.


You Hoxhaists should be right there in the struggle educating people, hosting public forums, and blog less.Hoxha wouldn't be opposed, obviously.

Hoxha, in Eurocommunism is Anti-Communism:

In the countries where capital rules, the youth, the women and other working masses are a major reserve of the revolution. Today there are millions of youth and women unemployed, abandoned and left without hope by the bourgeoisie, therefore they are seething with revolt and the elements of revolutionary outbursts are accumulating. Regarding the movements of the youth, students, intelligentsia and progressive women as important component parts of the broad democratic and liberation revolutionary movements in general, the Marxist-Leninists try to unite the drive and revolutionary aspirations of these broad masses with the drive and aspirations of the working class, in order to organize, educate and lead them on the right road. When the inexhaustible energies of the youth, the women and the other masses are united with the energies of the working class under the leadership of the proletarian party, there is no force which can stop the triumph of revolution and socialism...

At the present time, many rallies and demonstrations are being held in the streets of cities and villages of the capitalist countries. Naturally, these are organized by the bourgeois, social-democratic and revisionist parties, which have certain aims when they bring the masses out in the streets. Above all, they want to keep the revolted masses of working people under their control and to confine their demands within the economic framework permitted by the bourgeoisie. The task of the communists is not to stand apart from these demonstrations because the bourgeois and revisionist parties organize them, but to take part in these mass movements and turn them into political demonstrations and clashes with the bourgeoisie and its lackeys.

Inactivity, apathy and fruitless discussions are lethal to a Marxist-Leninist party. If a Marxist-Leninist party is not continually active, in movement with agitation and propaganda, if it does not take part in the different manifestations of the working class and the other working masses, irrespective that they may be under the influence of reformist parties, it will not be possible to alter the direction which the reformist parties give the movement of the masses.

The correct line of the Marxist-Leninist party, cannot be carried among the masses by means of its press alone, which is usually very restricted. The communists, sympathizers, and members of the mass organizations carry the line of the party among the masses precisely during the activities and actions of the working class and the other working masses when they are in movement, in struggle and battle for their economic rights, and even more for their political rights...

The leaders of revisionist parties think that the whole work of the party consists of endless discussions, fruitless theorizing and empty contests over one question or another. Nothing comes out of such sterile work. The revisionist parties work on the masses through their press which, it must be admitted, is extensive. These parties themselves are big capitalist trusts, and they have paid workers especially to turn out their propaganda. They have become very skilful at preaching to the working masses what they should and what they should not do. With their demagogy they obscure the final aim of the working masses, which is the overthrow of the capitalist system, and make them believe that what is achieved with a normal strike is everything. This big lie is in favour of the capitalist bourgeoisie. That is why the bourgeoisie is not worried by the words, the articles and the discourses of the salaried revisionist propagandists, or by the strikes which are held under the leadership of their parties.

[Lyev]

If there was ever an inappropriate place for a massive Hoxha quote, chit-chat is definitely it

[Ismail]

If there was ever an inappropriate place for a massive Hoxha quote, chit-chat is definitely itHoxha wrote 71 volumes of collected works, 23 volumes of published diaries, and various memoirs. More were being published as well until mid-1990.

He had a lot to say.

[manic expression]

The "line" in question is Marxism-Leninism.
So in your eyes, Marxism-Leninism is but a line and not practice?


I don't think "99%" versus the "1%" is meaningful rhetoric.
And why not?

[Qayin]

yawn

[Ismail]

So in your eyes, Marxism-Leninism is but a line and not practice?It is a theory and practice.


And why not?Because "99%" means uniting the proletariat and the petty-bourgeoisie, and also means obscuring the task of the emancipation of the proletariat. There are various cases, noted on RevLeft by participants, of liberals in the Occupy movement claiming that Neo-Nazis, libertarians, conspiracy-mongers and other forces are bad but are still "part of the 99%" and thus "cannot be ignored," etc.

[manic expression]

It is a theory and practice.
Precisely, and an ounce of the latter is worth a ton of the former.


Because "99%" means uniting the proletariat and the petty-bourgeoisie, and also means obscuring the task of the emancipation of the proletariat. There are various cases, noted on RevLeft by participants, of liberals in the Occupy movement claiming that Neo-Nazis, libertarians, conspiracy-mongers and other forces are bad but are still "part of the 99%" and thus "cannot be ignored," etc.It doesn't mean that at all, it simply means that the capitalist class (which does amount to 1% of the population or less) is oppressing and/or exploiting everyone else, and that if you're not on one side you're on the other.

Yes, a lot of OWS participants keep trying to think that cops are "still part of the 99%", but it's the job of class-conscious communists to explain why this is incorrect...they're on the side of the 1% if they fight for them.

Marx's formulation was, IIRC, "the existence of wealth in the hands of the one-tenth is due to its non-existence in the hands of the nine-tenths". The sentiment is precisely the same...only the math is a bit different, but then again Marx wasn't writing in 2011 America, so of course the math is going to be different.

[Sam_b]

I liked Red Jihad's quote there. 'Even' criticise Albania, haha.

[Magdalen]

Quit this forum I think beginning of last summer, since then I have helped organized #OccupyPhoenix, visited all the notable CA Occupations to attend the CAL general strike (saw SD,LA,CAL,SF,OO) and became a member of the PSL after meeting and hanging out with the SF branch then going to the conference in LA and hanging out with them and staying with Michael Prysner for a few days. Now im back and im the PSL Cadre. Wuddup

I heard Mike Prysner speak when he came to Scotland - I was quite impressed with him, both politically and by his general manner. He even has a letter in the present issue of Fight Racism! Fight Imperialism!.

[Qayin]

Mike P is a bad ass

[Lyev]

Hoxha wrote 71 volumes of collected works, 23 volumes of published diaries, and various memoirs. More were being published as well until mid-1990.

He had a lot to say.

What a waste of paper

[Ismail]

What a waste of paperNot really. Think of all the Soviet, Chinese, and misc. Eastern Bloc calls for "peaceful coexistence" and what not.

By comparison, Albanian publications stressed not only coverage of Albania itself and its achievements, but also solutions for international affairs. For instance the rise of Solidarity in Poland prompted the publication of a work on the subject: http://www.enverhoxha.ru/Archive_of_books/Archive/dede_spiro_the_counter-revolution_within_the_counter-revolution.pdf

In that work the Albanians call on Polish Marxist-Leninists to create new, revolutionary trade unions to oppose both the state-capitalist regime and the right-wing Solidarity trade union. Other Albanian publications called for the Soviet war in Afghanistan to be turned into a civil war against the Soviet social-imperialists, and still others for Marxist-Leninists to agitate against international summits and organizations designed to undermine the cause of proletarian revolution and to strengthen the US imperialists and Soviet social-imperialists. Unlike Tito and Kim Il Sung, for instance, who stressed the "Non-Aligned Movement," Albanian publications noted that such a "movement" serves imperialism and capitalism.

On that latter point the Albanian government released The Superpowers in 1986, a large collection of Hoxha's diary extracts on the affairs of the superpowers.

Various bourgeois works, such as Peter R. Prifti's Socialist Albania since 1944, note that the Albanian government envisioned itself as the international center for world proletarian revolution, especially after 1977. Hoxha spoke often of the need for a new Marxist-Leninist international among other things.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Mike P is a bad ass
word.