heaven and hell

[Sheep]

i got to thinking while i was smoking with my friends... now this may just be stoner talk but i think there might be some moral in it. so here we go...

what do you think heaven and hell would be like? --i'm not asking if you believe in it--

i think that if there was a heaven it would be very regimented. kind of like the army. in turn making all of it's residents seem well behaved.

while on the other hand i think hell would be total "freedom" you're not necessarily a bad person you can just make decisions that make you a bad person.

----

are there any other theories on heaven and hell, other than the generic religious ones?

[canikickit]

The devil is a bad guy, and when people do bad things, people blame the devil. Then when bad guys die, they go to hell, but why does the devil punish them when they get there? Wouldn't the devil get on really well with Al Capone and Hitler, they were doing his work, weren't they?

The moral of the story is the devil is a two faced son-of-an-angel.

[Xvall]

The Devil is an angel. I never understood that either. By sending people down to hell to be tortured by Satan, isn't god giving the devil (Apparently the most evil bastard in the universe) a means of entertainment and pleasure? What a jerk.

Anyways; I always pictured hell as some eternal night bar with crappy music. Not torture or anything; but just not very fun. I always pictured Hitler and Truman playing against each other in some video game for etenity. Then again; I don't believe in hell.

[Soviet power supreme]

I said this same thing on the another thread but here it goes

What is the difference between heaven and hell when you can't feel,taste,see,hear or smell in there?

[The Children of the Revolution]

The moral of the story is the devil is a two faced son-of-an-angel.


Correct. Lucifer, I believe he was / is called.

My theory on Heaven and Hell, for what it's worth, is very simple. Hell is any place which isn't heaven. Think about it. Heaven and Hell are meant to be eternal... So no matter how nonplussed one might be about Hitler and Truman playing video games, (nice analogy by the way) it may start to grate after the ten millionth (I say, is millionth a word?) time... Just like Lucifer may be getting fed up with torture by now...

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

I dunno, heaven and hell seem something far too impossible for me to fathom a thought about...

however..

I've never thought about hell, and why exactly God would send someone to 'damnation'. To me, I think, it's just beyond my comprehension to ever understand those things, just because, there's so many diff. viewpoints about the afterlife, and none of them are completely solid, nor do I want them to be. Could heaven be in our own minds, as a concoction of saying, 'well, this supreme being recognizes my good deeds, which will benefit me in the afterlife'....

Just a thought.

~Knowledge~

[redstar2000]

"Heaven for the scenery, Hell for the company".

Mark Twain said that.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Pete]

Hell is an invention of a three leveled world view, where humans lived in the middle. The dead always deteriorated and went to the earth, so they lived below ground toiling with the worms. The major god's lived in the sky becasue rain, wind, and the sun all are great effects on human life.

So hell is a spiritual-"realist" view of whathappens to a spirit when you die.

Heaven is an invention of those who are afraid to die.

[Rasta Sapian]

life and the energy emitted by life will be recycled back to the earth.
where a soul goes I am uncertain. Will God be your soul guide to the afterlife? Is the Almigthty father a judge of cognative morality and definition between good and evil?
Who can damm your soul for eternity? Man this philosophical dogmatitic thought is making my burnt out brain freeze up, peace yall :)

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Wow this is deep..Yet very funny.Have any of you read that called Elanor Of Ocatane(spelling,sorry)?it sucks,but there is one interesting point.They talk about basing out your actions,and basicly depending how many bad things you do god weighs it and you spend a certain amount of time in hell.Its kinda like jail or something

[The Children of the Revolution]

They talk about basing out your actions,and basicly depending how many bad things you do god weighs it and you spend a certain amount of time in hell.Its kinda like jail or something


Is this the same idea as the medieval Christian belief in 'Purgatory'?

(Knowledge 666, you're going straight to hell with a name like that!!!)

[Le Libérer]

This might be simplistic, but it answers my questions on the matter.

Hell is the absence of God.
God is love
therefore,
Hell is the place void of love

[Svartvit]

If there ever was such a thing as heaven, I doubt it would be ruled at all. Probably, everyone would be so happy with the things are, no government or leadership of some sort would be necessary.

[praxis1966]

As far as I'm concerned, this all depends on what religion you are. If in fact you have one of course.

If you're Catholic, there are four basic places you can go.

1) Heaven--for all the good believers
2) Purgatory--a place for people who weren't bad enough to go to hell, but need somewhere to work off minor sins
3) Limbo--where all those good enough for heaven but for what ever reason were not baptised (eg those who lived and died before Christ, or babies who died before they could be baptised)
4) Hell--for all non-believers and generally nasty people

If you're Buddhist, or of an otherwise Eastern pursuasion, it works quite differently.

Buddhists and others believe in karma, the idea which all of your deeds shall be payed back to you on the physical plane and the cause of reincarnation. This is sort of Newton's law for religious types. The Hindus explain it by saying that by saying while bad karma is a chain lead, good karma is a chain of gold. By incurring either, you become chained by an endless cycle of reincarnation to this existance. If you can manage to escape it, you go to Nirvana/Heaven. It is also presupposed that all existance is suffering (Buddha's 1st Noble Truth).

The way I figure it, in either case (or any other, for that matter) heaven is re-unification with God. Hell is eternal seperation from God. Whether Western or Eastern, the only difference is exactly where hell is located. In Christianity its someplace below the surface of Earth. In the Eastern faiths, its having to come back to this shithole over and over again. Either way you get a raw deal. BTW, I'm an agnostic.

PS A quote by my grandfather for Redstar: Why would I want to go to Heavan and be up there with all those strangers?

[Pete]

The Hindu concept is a bit different than that, my friend. All action does incur karma, and whether it is good or bad karma is based on your dharma (Krsnu says:"It is better to do your duty wrong than someone else's well"). To reach enlightenment (or Moksha) is to escape samsara, which is the cycle of redeath, the concept has slowly changed to be one of birth, but originally all you had to look forward to was dying again. In the Mahabharata, the Pandva go to hell (which is reallly heaven) and the Kaurvas go to heaven (which is really hell), throwing this concept into confusion, but one must remember that it is all subjective and in Hinduism nothing is really dropped, only built apon.

[IHP]

"Have any of you read that called Elanor Of Ocatane"

Eleanor of Aquitaine? I haven't read that book, but I know of her. Around the Plantagenet era I believe. Wasn't she the only person to ever wear the crowns of both France and England?

[Knowledge 6 6 6]

lol! Yeah, with my name as Knowledge 6 6 6, I sure am going to hell!!

j/k.

I doubt a number predetermines one's faith...if it does, that's one VERY superstitious aspect of looking at things..(Why is there no 13th floor in buildings???)

I dont get it...

~Knowledge~

[Le Libérer]

The last 3 digits in my social security number really is 666. My mum tried to have it changed. The government worker just laughed at her. It does seem to be a problem for some ppl when they find out that info. I've learned to laugh at it. Its not big deal. Does that mean I"m hell bound? :ph34r:

[praxis1966]

Pete: I understand that what I said may be an over-simplification. I was actually referring more to Buddhism, I was just using the Hindu explaination of karma to make it easier to understand. I realize it's more complicated than that. Hell, there have been entire books dedicated solely to defining the concept of karma and how it varies between various Eastern religions.

[Pete]

Oh I understand that Praxis, I just felt like digging a bit deeper to see how confused I could get my self :) For more confusion, a Hindu could get to moksha through the karma yoga, the gnana yoga (sp), and the devotion yoga. Action, knowledge, devotion. A path for all-well almsot all!

[cubist]

the devil, was one of the highest angels in gods structure, though he turned sour and was banished to a lake of fire in the form of a serpeant.

if it exists i would have to say heaven would be the place to be,


the way the christian faith stands with out the opinion bias given by a specific faction or church, (catholic lutherite, baptist new life etc etc,

there is one heaven and one hell no imbetween stages nothing,

if you believe in jesus and the fact that he died to save you from your inherently evil actions which would condem you to hell, then you go to heaven.

i know that is very quick but that is the key aspect all the other bits are not as essential as that,

[praxis1966]

Umm, you've obviously never spent any time with any lifelong Catholics. My Grandmother (rest her soul) was one. So were my parents until they converted to Ruhani Satsang. I think they'd know.

[Danton]

Hell is a bit like this...

[praxis1966]

Ever read Inferno? It's pretty good, actually. Clarifies a lot about the Christian perception of hell. After all, it has shaped most of what they know about hell; whether they admit to it or not.

[Palmares]

Hell...?

Maybe an idea could be No Exit/In Camera by Jean-Paul Sartre.

Another idea could be from Bill and Ted's Bogus Adventure.

Heaven? Forever with my girlfriend...

Either way, I think Heaven/Hell would be a reflection of the self, as who better knows what you would love/hate (and God would know you aswell as you)?

But I'm an atheistic agnostic. :D

[praxis1966]

Atheistic agnostic? I'm agnostic, but the terms as I've always understood them are mutually exclusive. You're gonna have to explain that one.

[Svartvit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 12:13 AM
Ever read Inferno? It's pretty good, actually. Clarifies a lot about the Christian perception of hell. After all, it has shaped most of what they know about hell; whether they admit to it or not.
Hard to say since Dante Alegieri was opposed to the church and wrote sarcastic parodies. The real title for Dante's Inferno is, as we know, Divina Commedia (The divine comedy, of course) and I don't think any sane christian theologist would see Dante's view of hell as the correct.

[praxis1966]

Yeah, he was condemned as a heretic at the time but his work served as a catalogue for the popular world view at the time. A point of order, though. The real title of Inferno was not The Divine Comedy. That title refers his trilogy of works Inferno, Purgatoro, and Paridiso (Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven respectively) in their totallity.

[Soviet power supreme]

If heaven and hell exist then where are they?
Science has proved that hell isn't inside earth and astronomy has proved that heaven isn't in space.

Yeah and about soul.

If soul comes in birth doesn't it mean that in heaven you have to have body cause soul needs it.But there are no flesh and bodies in heaven only god and souls.

Where this soul comes from?

[apathy maybe]

Heavon and Hell are on (in) different dimensions. (Thats if you believe in them.)

According to old Catholics (I don't know if they got rid of it), Limbo and purgetory exist. (Actually I think they got rid of them and now say that all good people can goto heavon (such as Jews and other non believers)(gays aren't good people however).)

According to Catholics when the final act comes, the bodies shall be raised up. So you will have a body to feel pain etc.

And Chris, if heavon is with your girlfriend, what happens when you break up?

[Alejandro C]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2003, 02:35 PM
Hell is a bit like this...
the last date at the bottom of that drawing, the one with the devil in it, is my birthday...

[praxis1966]

Funny you should say that, Apathy. I had a conversation with my Grandmother about 6 months before she passed about this. She was still a little irritated that they stopped doing mass in Latin.

[Palmares]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 04:25 PM
Atheistic agnostic? I'm agnostic, but the terms as I've always understood them are mutually exclusive. You're gonna have to explain that one.
I believe that the existence of God(s) cannot be proven/disproven, but I belive it is more likely He does not exist. To put it another way, to prove something exists is for it to exist, but existence is not a quality. Non-existence nullifies something. Non-existence in fact is nothing, and hence ... I just find it extremely unlikely that He exists, but I do not absolutely believe or know He does not exist (like an atheist would).


And Chris, if heavon is with your girlfriend, what happens when you break up?

Then my 'meaning' to life would cease to exist (my relationship with her that is), and I would then resume accepting the meaninglessness of existence. What bliss!

[Xvall]

That lustful section doesn't look too bad.

Joking, really.

[praxis1966]

I think I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like you've used a lot of circular logic to arrive at your conclusions. Reminds me of certain people who call themselves anarcho-syndicalists. Syndicalism is probably the most ordered societal structure and anarchism is the least.

If I could offer some advise (not that you asked for it) I would simply claim agnostacism and when asked for explanations delve into that logical vortex. I find it is better to confuse people later on than from the outset. Anyone who fails to ask why your beliefs are the way they are aren't really worth your time anyhow.

[Svartvit]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 19 2003, 03:46 PM
If heaven and hell exist then where are they?
Science has proved that hell isn't inside earth and astronomy has proved that heaven isn't in space.

Yeah and about soul.

If soul comes in birth doesn't it mean that in heaven you have to have body cause soul needs it.But there are no flesh and bodies in heaven only god and souls.

Where this soul comes from?
Yes, where does the soul come from? From my poin of view, the soul is synonyme to the consciousness. Exactly what is a though except for an electric buzz in your brain? Somehow, the thought enters your conscious -- your soul -- and you realize.
No scientist knows, and so, God is not scientifically impossible. Nor is heaven and hell.


A point of order, though. The real title of Inferno was not The Divine Comedy. That title refers his trilogy of works Inferno, Purgatoro, and Paridiso (Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven respectively) in their totallity.
You're right there. My bad.

[Umoja]

I think your soul is more of the initial lifeforce we've yet to replicate, and is the reason we can't bring people back to life after they die. It's the reason an electric shock won't always make a person come back to life.

[red warlock]

THIS IS FOR COMRADE SOVIET POWER SUPREME
science is not the absolute measure...nowadays science discovered only 0.000000000000000000001 from the laws of the universe ther is still much to be dicovered...
we think in the therms of actual science or science fictionHeaven and hell are not in other dimenssions...they are here.....but not the here you would expect by looking on the wall in front of you...or as the Zen master tells "they are in your mind" they exist and they dont exist at the same time....you see we may never accept this because it is a paradox and our knowledge and thinking cracks when it comes to joining the opposites......

[RyeN]

If there were such a thing as a god and a devil hell would be very different from what people think. The story goes that There was a heaven and god and lots of angels were there all worshiping god. Lucifer(the devil) thought that maybee someone else should be worshiped. Satan is a free thinker and decided to rebel against his conformist master. Satan and his rebel aliance fought a great battle in heaven, but were defeated by the all powerful god.

Then for some strange reason God sent the devil to the earth. His fragile little world with people capable of free thought? So the story goes on that satan wants you to disobey god and join his rebel alliance. God wants you to be good and conform. The way it looks to me though is that the rules to get to heaven are to confusing and strick that few people will be accepted anyway. So it looks like satan is going to win the battle for the most souls. When the final battle comes in all likley hood god and his lot of conformist pussy's will lose and all be tortured. Of course there is no such thing as heaven and hell though so it really doesnt matter, Just have fun and be polite.

[Soviet power supreme]

Warlock I agree but I was critisizing the Judaism,Jesus and middle age theories about god living at the cliff of cloud or Satan inside the earth.

[fincham]

To those people who were contemplating how/why the devil would torture people: hell, in its present tense, is to Satan banishment from heaven. In the eternal sense (our common view of hell as fire and torture), Satan will be punished with the AntiChrist, false prophet, and arguably Judas in the worst part of hell--at least according to religious tradition. Satan is not the ruler or punisher in hell, he simply reigns on earth until the end of the world

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 12:59 AM
Heaven is an invention of those who are afraid to die.
I love that crazypete. I couldnt have said it better.

I agree completely.

[Anarchist Freedom]

purgatory is a lie.


if there is a heaven & a hell thats all there is.

catholocism is just a big lie full of crutons O christ and weird songs.

funny how i go to a catholic school LOL


:che:


ps im not catholic

[Umoja]

I tend to believe, having talked to people who've lucid dreamed, and myself having done it once, that another plane of existence does exist, but it's not exactly true in the respect that you go their after you die. Although a few people claim, that some "space between dreams" is where you linger for awhile before going into nothingness or something else.

Now everyone thinks I'm nuts.