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View Full Version : does israel have the right to exist?



Intifada
15th November 2003, 19:06
i believe in self-determination, and so i believe that israel should have the right to exist. however i do not support the israeli government and the terrorising of the palestinian people.

end the occupation of palestine!!!

canikickit
15th November 2003, 19:42
Palestine - Israel poll (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=16297&hl=israel)

Ortega
15th November 2003, 23:30
no. israel will never even compromise with palestine as long as it exists.

and besides... the palestinians have the right to the land <_<

BuyOurEverything
16th November 2003, 00:53
No one race has the right to a land. Whoever lives there has the right to it. Israel has a right to exist, just as Palestine does.

the SovieT
16th November 2003, 00:56
Poll: does this poll have the right to exist?


Option 1: NO
Option 2: NO
Option 3: NO

Soul Rebel
16th November 2003, 01:02
gotta love the soviet....

Ortega
16th November 2003, 02:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 08:53 PM
No one race has the right to a land. Whoever lives there has the right to it. Israel has a right to exist, just as Palestine does.
good point buyoureverything...
but dont you think that the palestinians have a bit more of a right to the land? i know the european jews went through terrible things in the holocaust, but the palestinians had been farming and raising families for generations on that land, and suddenly the land is taken by the jews and converted into a jewish state. not to sound anti-semitic or anything talking about "the jews" :ph34r: . i just think that it was a bad idea on the part of the united nations to take this area of land from those who had lived in it for so long and change it into a state that was not only run by and meant for foreigners, but was not even arabic or muslim in the slightest??? but whats done is done. i just wish there was some way to solve this... :(

Ortega
16th November 2003, 02:22
id like to hear what comrade Che PFLP has to say, hes from palestine.
are there any israelis or pro-israelis on the board? i guess theyd only be in opposing ideologies...

flayer2
16th November 2003, 03:33
2 separate states ain&#39;t gonna work . They have to learn to live together in one state .

Rasta Sapian
16th November 2003, 06:35
Questioning existance provides no benefit, of course israel has the right.

flayer2
16th November 2003, 06:59
ok, lets put in another question:

Do you support aid to Israel so it can maintain its military superiority over the arabs?

Thats the only way israel can exist as a jewish state...

The Feral Underclass
16th November 2003, 09:33
It is quite simple to understand. The land that the Israeli government is occupying does not belong to them. It did not belong to them in 1948, it did not belong to them in 1967, it did not belong to them in 1989 and it does not belong to them now&#33;

Ariel Sharon, an indicted war criminal, has led the Israeli government into illegal acts of occuptaion and settlement building, defying numerous UN resolutions. The latest one passed by the UN security council which forbids them to build settlements on Palestinaian land.

The Israeli government has pepertrated acts of genocide and ehtnic cleansing against the Palestinians all the name of the war on terror. Terror, I might add used in fristrated deseperation to defend a nation occupied and brutalized by forces led by extremists. These men and women are driven to despair and act in the most descpicable ways because they have nothing else. But when tanks, fighter planes and soldiers in uniforms come marching down the streets of Jenin this is a noble and courages act against terrorism. But all it is is instatutionalised terrorism.

Yes of course Israel should be entitled to exist, but not in the West Bank and gaza. That is not Israeli land, it is Palestinian and they should get out now&#33;

FREEDOM FOR PALESTINE&#33; END ISRAELI APPARTIED&#33;

il Commie
16th November 2003, 10:54
Yes, I&#39;m an Israeli. And yes, I think Israel has a right to exist. But no, not as a "jewish state".

There is no international jewish nation, it&#39;s a zionist fiction. But there is an israeli nation , the jews living in Israel, who deserves a state. A state in &#39;67 borders, living in peace with the palestinian state. A state for all it&#39;s citizens who treats it&#39;s arab-palestinian minority not as a threat but as equals. A state which let&#39;s the refugees of zionist wars return to their homes. A state which has universal immigration laws, not immigration for jews only, and therefore is not enslaved to jewish bourgeoise around the world.

That&#39;s under capitalism ofcourse. Under socialism there is no need for national independency, there&#39;s a need for class unity beyond national borders.

Hate Is Art
16th November 2003, 11:17
israel and palestine both have the right to exist but isreal doesnt have the right to occupy palenstines land and palestinean&#39;s(sp?) dont have the right to kill israeli civilians.

Faceless
16th November 2003, 11:29
Why does any state have the right to impose its will on a people when its concern is not for the people? I voted no but then I would vote no for a palestinian state&#39;s right to exist. I believe the Palestinians have a right to autonomy. Of course, it&#39;s not that simple.

RED CHARO
16th November 2003, 12:15
----- WHY COULDN&#39;T JEWISH IMMMIGRANTS LIVE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AS IMMIGRANTS, LIKE IMMIGRANTS IN ANY OTHER COUNTRY?????
-WHY.... BECAUSE THEY SAW THEM SELVES AS BIGGER THAN THE LOCALS (F##&#39;N EUROPEANS)------

kingbee
16th November 2003, 13:28
i belive it does. why? because it has happened. we cannot regress. whether we like it or not, it is part of history, and we cannot change it.
i am against the policies of israel, and the reasons for its establishment, but there is no humane way of getting rid of israel/the israelis off the former palestinian land.

Kez
16th November 2003, 14:49
yes to israeli people having land, no to israeli ruling class having land...

(*
16th November 2003, 16:27
Speaking of land & borders.

This is what Israel occupies

http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/key_maps/territories_today.gif

This is what it should actually look like. This is what should be included in a Palestinian state

http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/key_maps/israel_un_partition300.gif

Which means all these bluish triangles (settlements), orange blockades, and those lines running ALL over the territory (Israeli roads)...have to be removed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/key_maps/jewish_map.gif


and here, look at that red line going across (Israeli controlled roads).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/key_maps/jewish_gaza.gif


So Yes Israel has the right to exist (now...not before)...but they need to get out of the areas depicted by these maps.

Invader Zim
16th November 2003, 16:59
This topic has been done to death already, but as to the situation both the palistinians and the "zionists", "jews", "europeans" whatever you want to call them should live together under a equily representative government.

If you really want to get into the history of the region, then the land does not actually belong to specifically anyone. It is a very complex situation, with no actual answer.

il Commie
16th November 2003, 17:27
If we&#39;re already showing maps (*, than here&#39;s the map of the "Security Fence" - "Apartheid Wall" built in the West Bank:

Che PFLP
16th November 2003, 18:20
Yes, I&#39;m an Israeli. And yes, I think Israel has a right to exist. But no, not as a "jewish state".

I think No , the solution is not two states , live togther , i think we must fight togther to build our socialist republic .. maybe it diffcult at this time and the nearest future as you say .. but that is what we should do.

Israelis come and live im my home in tel avive , jafa , el majdal ( ashkellon ) , i want to return to this home there is a right to the jews to live in my land in peace , the eccupation is not for gaza and the west bank , isreal occupied palestine , historical palestine . so it hasn`t have the right to exist .


iam sorry for mistakes in typing .. i hope you undersatnd my idea . ;)

Hawker
16th November 2003, 20:57
Yes I think that Israel has the right to exist but they should leave Palestine alone.The UN nor the US will do anything to stop the Israeli invasion of Palestine why?Because Israeli is considerd the 51st state to the US Government.

Marxist in Nebraska
16th November 2003, 22:23
I said no...

Jews have a right to live near the land they consider holy, but I do not think anyone has the right to establish a theocratic government on disputed land. I do not want to see a Christian or Islamic state on that land, either...

EDIT: I believe there should be one state on the land... a secular, democratic state...

noxious
17th November 2003, 00:13
a state has no rights. all the individuals in the region have a right to live where they are, the state doesn&#39;t matter.

il Commie
17th November 2003, 14:44
Originally posted by Che [email protected] 16 2003, 07:20 PM
I think No , the solution is not two states , live togther , i think we must fight togther to build our socialist republic .. maybe it diffcult at this time and the nearest future as you say .. but that is what we should do.

Israelis come and live im my home in tel avive , jafa , el majdal ( ashkellon ) , i want to return to this home there is a right to the jews to live in my land in peace , the eccupation is not for gaza and the west bank , isreal occupied palestine , historical palestine . so it hasn`t have the right to exist .
Yes, we should fight for a united socialist republic. But that fight can only be won by a workers&#39; revolution. So you think we should hold back the liberation of Palestine until the revolution?

No. Anti-imperialist actions and demonstrations are a good chance for us to show the people an escape from the deadly capitalist trap. The end of the occupation will give the palestinian workers better fighting conditions, whether they&#39;ll kick Arafat right away or build an imperialist-controlled state in Gaza and the West Bank, and then revolt.

The land inside the green line is not occupied. The palestinians who weren&#39;t exiled during the &#39;48 war, though discriminated greatly, still enjoy some democratic rights under Israel rule. The are citizens, B rated citizens, but citizens.

The fight of the arabs in Um El-Fahm (inside the green line) and the arabs living in Jenin (outside the green line), although being almost neighbors, have different fights. The palestinians inside Israel fight for civil equality as national minority, while the palestinians outside the green line fight for a state that would give them civil rights and self-determination. The "israeli" palestines fight against racism (which also prevents the return of the refugees) and the palestinians in the occupied territories fight against imperialism.

The unity of the land can not be achieve under Capitalism. The PLO have tried it for many years and haven&#39;t succeeded, and that&#39;s why they became traitors to their people who are willing to sell the right of return. The zionist regime and the IDF are too strong to be beaten by terror, without the support of the jewish proletariat who participate the IDF Zionism can not be beaten.

And if you&#39;re thinking the israeli ruling class will give up Zionism and will let the arab bourgeoise enter it, by letting the arabs citizenships, than you&#39;re simply dreaming.

To my prediction, we won&#39;t even have a bourgeoise "peace" in the near future. And even if we will have, it will be zionist, which means not giving palestinians real self-determination. The Geneva agreement say that Israel is a "jewish state", that the state of Palestine won&#39;t have an army and that the refugees wouldn&#39;t have the right of return.

The only way we can achieve the liberation of Palestine I believe is by mass protest that would force the IDF and the settlers out of Gaza and the West Bank. That already happend with Lebanon war, Barak ended it because of popular protest against it. A mass movment against the occupatin for a one-sided withdraw can raise the counciessness of the workers in Israel, and a withdraw could make it easier fo the plastinian workers to have a mass struggle.

I don&#39;t believe what some people at the radical left here do, that under capitalism there would be a right of return. Also, no agreement the ruling classes will suggest will end the occupation. The end of the occupation could only be achieved by one-sided withdraw which can be achived by a big anti-war movment (if will start it now and wouldn&#39;t give up, it can get bigger), and the end of the occupation will pave the way for a revolution in Palestine and in Israel. And the revolution will surely allow the refugees to return.

So that&#39;s why I say two states is the path to one soviet republic.