Why are there are divides in the left??

[Ernestocheguevara]

u dont work with shop stewards,

He has been fed a lot of bullshit - perhaps send him my last reply to you about the positions we have in the Trades Unions

it was people like u that said we should build new unnion to the Electricity one as they had a very rightwing leadership,

Never did we say that, he has us mixed up with tactics the SWP proposed in the 1970s in some workplaces - which everyone in the then Militant opposed- and we still would. Ask him to prove that statement with documentary evidence or to stop repeating lies. Or maybe the very nice elastic phrase "people like you" covers it?

however we said that we should stay in and fight, the result? u wasted ur time and money, and we got the union to be one of the most left wing there are....

AMICUS has moved left because of Socialist Appeal then?

2ndly ur splitting workers into those who pay for Labour and those who dont, thats first way to split
Then you compete against Labour, taking votes against them and coming behind the fascists in any case with the votes youve robbed from labour. Had labour had these votes the fascists wouldnt get so many votes...

Already dealt with that in the last message

We have a lot of SP members who return to the tendecny after seeing how unproductive they are, i can give u the msn addres of one comrade if u wish...

Maybe you have one then?

sorry if this comes acorss as an agressive post, its not ment to be, sorry mate, im trying to explain, no anger is directedd at you

Nothing wrong with sharp political debate, but if you make a statement as if it is fact, you should be prepared to back it up with evidence!

Another helping hand from a well served Comrade, TavareeshKamo hope you have some answers

:D
Would like to here your opinions mate.

[Ernestocheguevara]

Please feel free, other comrades, to put in your ideas and opinions on why the left is so deeply divided and possible ideas about how this could be resolved.

RH--

[Kez]

The electricians union was a few years ago not in the 1970's...

"AMICUS has moved left because of Socialist Appeal then?"
-Weve put candidates up and are fighting for socialism within the ranks of the Trade Unions, increasing class consiousness as im sure you will agree with that it does...

"Already dealt with that in the last message"
-no you havent

"Maybe you have one then?"
-No several, like i said i can give u the addresses of a few of them that i know well...The last one i personally saw was from Manchester who had joined SP and is now joining us last month i believe. This in itself is not evidence of the masses leaving the SP, however it is a trend, and it shows the deficiencies of the Taafite "theory" base they have, or dont, as the case is.

"Nothing wrong with sharp political debate, but if you make a statement as if it is fact, you should be prepared to back it up with evidence!"
-I'll get you the dates and figures concerning the Electricians Union.

Any chance of you discussing yourself rather than getting an oldie to help you?? Why cant you stand up for yourself? Im not having a go, im just trying to show their complete lack of emphasis of educating rank and file.

[Kez]

could you tell me why your membership has declined from 6000 to 2000?

could YOU tell me, not your party hack buddy

[Ernestocheguevara]

Where did you get the figures for the 6000-2000 decline?

[Kez]

thats yout own figures, ask your party hack

[Ernestocheguevara]

I am reading 'rise of the millitant' at the mo (along with 'Dude where's my country' V.Good!!!) I have only been a member since October, I joined the party because of their political ideologies NOT their numbers after all it's not the size that matters it's what you do with it!!!!


Yes our membership declined in the period of the late 1980's to around 1998. This was in common with all of the left internationally. Some groups folded up altogether, others abandoned their revolutionary principles. We are closely affected by the mood and conciousness of the working class. There are aIways going to be ups and downs with the political situation. In the 1970s and up to the mid-to-late 80's we had grown very rapidly. In the aftermath of the defeat of the Miners and the ending of the Liverpool City council struggle a number of processes developed.

A dropping away of activity in the trades unions and Labour Party. A certain feeling of defeat amongst some union activists. The collapse of the Soviet union in 1990 had a big impact. It coincided with a boom in the capitalist economy and led the capitaists to raise the idea that there was no alternative to capitalism. Even though we said that the SU wasn't socialist, it did seem to some on the left and to some workers that "the market" is the only thing that works. There was a dropping off in the level of "socialist conciousness". We argued against that but we were fighting against the stream. Some of our members got dissillutioned about the prospects for socialism and left the party or dropped out of activity. What ever the personal reasons they had for not being involved over that period of time they were not alone and were part of the process.

In addition some revolutionaries opted for the short-cut approach of abandoning the hard job of building a revolutionary party, in favour of a looser broader, reformist organisation (like the SSP).

Inside the Labour Party significant changes were taking place. The best working class people were no longer in the LP but still got involved in campaigns such as the Anti-Poll tax campaign. The Blairite right were changing it dramatically, and the possibilities for revolutionaries to build from within the Labour party were being cut off.

At that point we had a major discussion inside our organisation. it was about a number of issues - fundamentally trying to get to grips with the new political situation. The key issue was the Labour Party. The majority supported the idea of taking our first steps out of the LP and setting up an open organisation in Scotland. Ted Grant and a few others opposed this, saying that we would ruin "40 years of work" inside labour, and wanting to keep the old tactics and analsis.

They lost the vote and split away. We went on to set up "Militant Labour" and later renamed ourselves "Socialist party". The SA remain to this day a very small group who have no real influence and no prospect of building because they are wedded to Labour and act as apologists for them (as in the case of who is to blame for the rise of the BNP)

On the other hand I believe we are growing now as the mood has changed, and are well placed to build more rapidly as events develop. Do young people who have become politicised by the war want to join labour? Do ordinary workers fighting privatisation by New labour want to join the LP in massive numbers? Do council workers and local communities fighting council cuts by labor Councils want to join labour? I dont think so! New people will come along who are interested in our ideas and some of the past members will get revitalised.

As long as we continue to have the correct orientation to the working class, intervening in struggles we will supersed our past membership again and be in a position at some point to buid a mass revolutionary party as the objective political situation develops.

Your ties with the Labour party explain why you have so few members, the Labour party cannot be changed, Mike Moore put it best," Labour have taken the 'U' out of Labour" and should shorten to LABOR.

[Kez]

again, you had to wait for your party hack to answer the questions posed. why?

Its a shame to see youth going to waste to the mindless fuckery of sect parties.

"On the other hand I believe we are growing now as the mood has changed, and are well placed to build more rapidly as events develop. Do young people who have become politicised by the war want to join labour? Do ordinary workers fighting privatisation by New labour want to join the LP in massive numbers? Do council workers and local communities fighting council cuts by labor Councils want to join labour? I dont think so! New people will come along who are interested in our ideas and some of the past members will get revitalised. "
-We dont work in the Labour party for our youth section....so there you have it, i wish you would take the time like i have and actually bothered to read about the other organisation rather than just slate it... i had to read that shit rise of militant book by the liar taafe, y dont u read some of our books to see what the real truth is?
-Do workers join? in times of struggle workers work through their trade unions, and the trade union is locked with the Labour Party, therefore the shift is reflected eg the booting of Sir Ken Jackson as TU leader.
-The council workers one is a bit strange since they already are a member of a party.....so why would they change parties??? doesnt make sense
-Your new people have left you and the evideence for this is of some of them joining us! So dont believe all the rhetoric your hack barks down at you.

"As long as we continue to have the correct orientation to the working class, intervening in struggles we will supersed our past membership again and be in a position at some point to buid a mass revolutionary party as the objective political situation develops."
-You cant "intervene in struggle" when your outside the arena for the struggle, ie the tradee unions and the Labour Party.

"Your ties with the Labour party explain why you have so few members, the Labour party cannot be changed"
-No i personally base this on having to start from scratch in terms of financing, machinery, buildings etc.
-I would like Your evidence ie not your party hacks, on why the LP cant be changed...

Where do you live? Maybe we could meet up and discuss properly? or on msn or summit at least...

[Edward Norton]

Even if the the SPEW has declined from 6000 to 2000, that still must be larger then the so-called 'Socialist' Appeal.

Tav Kamos group is virtually unheard of in the left and it's presence is almost invisible, not suprising for a group that urges people to support the Tory party revisited (Labour Party).

Before going off in one of your sectarian rants (something you do with frequency if you look at all your past posts) you should ask questions as to why your group has done nothing and has no tangible future.

And dont reply with some pathetic remark about how I just said that out of sectarianism, because I am NOT a member of ANY group inside or outside the Labour Party, because I have found all of them to be going nowhere.

[Morpheus]

The left is divided partly because some sections of the left have a history of shooting other sections of the left. Obviously this has lead to a lot of bad blood between them. The left will always be highly divided by this.

[Kez]

as for what we have done, give our or other groups books a read and u will find out

as for the future, u can either discuss with us, or lay about on the side until its in the news for u.

[kylie]

It's a large subject, Marxism is a grand narrative theory, and so there is lots of oppertunity for people to find things they disagree on. Look at the right wing, that is just as divided.

[suffianr]

Please feel free, other comrades, to put in your ideas and opinions on why the left is so deeply divided and possible ideas about how this could be resolved.

There is a need to balance things between different mindsets, cultures, attitudes etc.

Why was it that the communists in Malaya's insurgency (1948-1960) were almost entirely Maoist? Why no Stalinists?

Well, most of them were ethnic Chinese, and for a time, the party was monitored from mainland China.

And why did the communists encounter difficulty recruiting members from other races? Because the Moaist slant communicated to the masses didn't factor in things like religion, ethnic culture & traditions and was way too rigid in it's implementation that it eventually alienated more people than it liberated.

Would Marxism-Leninism have worked in Malaya?

That, my comrades, is a rhetorical question. :)

[Kez]

Mr Ernesto, are we gonna carry this on, or du u accept my points?