The Departed (2006)

[Os Cangaceiros]

I recently revisited this film, I'd forgotten how good it is.

One thing that strikes me about the film today is it's relevance to (relatively) recent events, with the capture of James Bulger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitey_Bulger). In case you didn't know, James Bulger was an Irish mobster who lead a vicious Boston crime syndicate, and was a protected FBI informant (the FBI used him to gain info on the Italian mafia in the area). He was protected by the FBI even after he stopped giving information, and was on the run for 15 years or so before his recent capture this year...his is actually a pretty interesting story, and a conspiracy theorists dream come true. Some claim that while he was basically the second most wanted man after bin Laden, some of his former allies in the FBI were still protecting him.

But anyway, Jack Nicholson's character in the film is based on him, and his performance as a demented psychopath isn't that far off the mark. This was also the first film that made me notice Leonardo DiCaprio's acting ability...there are a few good actors in it, Ray Winstone is another one. All in all it's a great portrait of the Boston underground IMO (it was originally based on "Infernal Affairs", a Hong Kong film that was much more subdued that Scorsese's adaptation). What does everyone else think?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Yeah it's brilliant film; an excellent example of how an ensemble cast is utilised properly. It does irritate me slightly that the majority of people that know the film won't know anything about Infernal Affairs but that sort of transnational cultural thievery has been going on since before Seven Samurai got given cowboy hats and six-shooters.

[x359594]

...It does irritate me slightly that the majority of people that know the film won't know anything about Infernal Affairs but that sort of transnational cultural thievery has been going on since before Seven Samurai got given cowboy hats and six-shooters.

I prefer Infernal Affairs to The Departed, but Scosese does well enough.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I recently revisited this film, I'd forgotten how good it is.

One thing that strikes me about the film today is it's relevance to (relatively) recent events, with the capture of James Bulger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitey_Bulger). In case you didn't know, James Bulger was an Irish mobster who lead a vicious Boston crime syndicate, and was a protected FBI informant (the FBI used him to gain info on the Italian mafia in the area). He was protected by the FBI even after he stopped giving information, and was on the run for 15 years or so before his recent capture this year...his is actually a pretty interesting story, and a conspiracy theorists dream come true. Some claim that while he was basically the second most wanted man after bin Laden, some of his former allies in the FBI were still protecting him.

But anyway, Jack Nicholson's character in the film is based on him, and his performance as a demented psychopath isn't that far off the mark. This was also the first film that made me notice Leonardo DiCaprio's acting ability...there are a few good actors in it, Ray Winstone is another one. All in all it's a great portrait of the Boston underground IMO (it was originally based on "Infernal Affairs", a Hong Kong film that was much more subdued that Scorsese's adaptation). What does everyone else think?

I hate to sound like a giddy fanboy, but I love DiCaprio. The Departed, Blood Diamond, Inception, even the Titanic.

I like Pitt too, but was bummed that Pitt won the World War Z bid over DiCaprio.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I prefer Infernal Affairs to The Departed, but Scosese does well enough.

You know, I'm really tied between the two of them. I watched The Departed first so that's no doubt influencing my decision and you can say I'm a bit of a Scorcese fanboy (I love After Hours and disliked Goodfellas; take that as you want :p ).

[Magón]

I really liked it. Saw it when it came to theaters, and saw it about three times there. Mainly because different friends were inviting me to see it. 2006 was a good year for DiCaprio, because he wasn't just really good in The Departed, but I also thought he did a good job in Blood Diamond, that same year.

Jack Nicholson was just as good, especially when he started teetering on the edge near the end of the film from paranoia and fear. But really I think almost everything Jack Nicholson does is good.

I think this was the first movie, I could say Matt Damon actually did a good job in and I could actually enjoy his work. The Bourne films I never liked, and anything else I'd seen Matt Damon in, was shitty as hell. I think this was the first movie I actually liked Alec Baldwin in too.

[9]

I dont think Ive ever seen a Scorsese film that I actually liked, and this one was no exception. Its been a few years since I watched it though so its hard to go into specifics about what I didnt like, but I just remember thinking it was pretty bad.

[Bronco]

I hate to sound like a giddy fanboy, but I love DiCaprio. The Departed, Blood Diamond, Inception, even the Titanic.

I like Pitt too, but was bummed that Pitt won the World War Z bid over DiCaprio.

Shutter Island as well, I'm the same, I love DiCaprio :D

[S.Artesian]

I too think the original Infernal Affairs [mou gaan dou] from Hong Kong is better. Part of a three-film story, IIRC. Directed by Alan Mak and Wai-keung Lau.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

... James Bulger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitey_Bulger). In case you didn't know, James Bulger was an Irish mobster who lead a vicious Boston crime syndicate, and was a protected FBI informant (the FBI used him to gain info on the Italian mafia in the area). He was protected by the FBI even after he stopped giving information, and was on the run for 15 years or so before his recent capture this year...his is actually a pretty interesting story, and a conspiracy theorists dream come true. Some claim that while he was basically the second most wanted man after bin Laden, some of his former allies in the FBI were still protecting him.

Don't forget that his brother was president of the Massachusetts Senate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M._Bulger

[coda]

funny how people like different things. I despised the film from the opening line -- gratuitous alienating racism. then pile up of homophobic slurs.. other than that just boring redundant cop movie.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The Departed offers the audience some strong performances, a few funny scenes, and a taut second half, but the weak first half and a miscast Nicholson are some of the elements that collude to make it one of Scorsese's lesser films.

Scorsese's Oscar win for it was really a belated win for Taxi Driver or Raging Bull.

[praxis1966]

I actually really enjoyed the film as well, but that was in spite of DiCaprio's performance, not because of it. He's never really done much that I've enjoyed, and the films he's been in that I did like can all pretty much be described that way. In this particular case, I think what annoyed me most is that he butchered the accent. I suppose one could say the same of Nicholson, but he's always been so good at playing a psychopath it's forgivable in his case. DiCaprio was for my money just kind of mediocre besides.

Personally, I would've liked to have seen Cole Hauser in DiCaprio's role, but for whatever reason Scorsese seems to love the latter... Not to mention he seemed to be bogarting Heat a little bit insofar as it seemed like he wanted the white and black hats to look alike in order to reinforce the notion that cops and gangsters really aren't that far apart...

I dunno. Maybe it's all just personal bias. I never really forgave Leo for Romeo and Juliet... lol


funny how people like different things. I despised the film from the opening line -- gratuitous alienating racism. then pile up of homophobic slurs.. other than that just boring redundant cop movie.

What I think is funny is that you think sociopaths should share your values...:rolleyes:

[Os Cangaceiros]

I dont know, I think he has kind of limited range as an actor, and I dont think that he'll put in a Raging Bull caliber performance, but I think he's OK. I liked him in this and Shutter Island.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I quite like him in The Beach but I think I'm possible the only person who enjoys that film.

[eyeheartlenin]

In something like the same genre as The Departed, The Town, which is getting a lot of play on cable these days, is an enjoyable film, I thought, with impressive performances by Ben Affleck and Jon Hamm, as a Charlestown (really tough part of Boston) bank robber, one of many, reportedly, and an FBI agent, respectively. The scenes where they confront each other, and Affleck basically says "FU" to Hamm and the federal government, are well worth a look. I remember watching The Departed and thinking it was terribly sad. In response to Giant Monkey Man, I have a question; was The Beach the film where one of the characters was essentially left to die by the rest of the cast, in an out of the way place, no less? Ugh!

[coda]

<<What I think is funny is that you think sociopaths should share your values...:rolleyes:>>

sociopaths like Scorsese?

"values"? not quite. rather a baseline denominator. 'respect', or at least 'tolerance' for ethnic and sexual preference. which even (more so) creative license should adhere to.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

The Beach is the film that had a group of people so obsessed with maintaining their island 'paradise' that they left one of their number to suffer and die, yes.

[La Comédie Noire]

Terrible Boston accents, but a good movie none the less.

[The Douche]

<<What I think is funny is that you think sociopaths should share your values...:rolleyes:>>

sociopaths like Scorsese?

"values"? not quite. rather a baseline denominator. 'respect', or at least 'tolerance' for ethnic and sexual preference. which even (more so) creative license should adhere to.

But the movie isn't about scorsese? The movie is about the irish mob, why would you expect mobsters to abstain from racially and sexually offensive language?

[praxis1966]

But the movie isn't about scorsese? The movie is about the irish mob, why would you expect mobsters to abstain from racially and sexually offensive language?

Or cops for that matter... Does anybody really expect them to behave in a politically correct manner? Why anyone would want to superimpose an artificial ethic over a story at the cost of realism is beyond me.

[coda]

If you insist on defending someones right to vulgar discrimination under the banner of "art" and "realism" then you're probably not too far off from defending the right in "real life". Anyhow, the movie was fictional, not a documentary. The opening line was vile and unnecessary to the whole story. Was there even a black person in the movie? Not that I recall. (oh, excuse me there was.. and his name was 'Brown' according to IMDB-- way to go). Too bad Marty wasn't handed his ass a long with the best director award/best picture award.

[first lines]
I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me. Years ago we had the church. That was only a way of saying - we had each other. The Knights of Columbus were real head-breakers; true guineas. They took over their piece of the city. Twenty years after an Irishman couldn't get a fucking job, we had the presidency. May he rest in peace. That's what the niggers don't realize. If I got one thing against the black chappies, it's this - no one gives it to you. You have to take it.

[The Douche]

If you insist on defending someones right to vulgar discrimination under the banner of "art" and "realism" then you're probably not too far off from defending the right in "real life". Anyhow, the movie was fictional, not a documentary. The opening line was vile and unnecessary to the whole story. Was there even a black person in the movie? Not that I recall. (oh, excuse me there was.. and his name was 'Brown' according to IMDB-- way to go). Too bad Marty wasn't handed his ass a long with the best director award/best picture award.

[first lines]
I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me. Years ago we had the church. That was only a way of saying - we had each other. The Knights of Columbus were real head-breakers; true guineas. They took over their piece of the city. Twenty years after an Irishman couldn't get a fucking job, we had the presidency. May he rest in peace. That's what the niggers don't realize. If I got one thing against the black chappies, it's this - no one gives it to you. You have to take it.

What are you getting at? I still don't understand. Cops and mobsters are shitty human beings, the movie demonstrated that pretty well.

Do you think American History X shouldn't exist as movie as well? Or any move dealing with race where the antagonist uses discriminatory language?

[Commissar Rykov]

If you insist on defending someones right to vulgar discrimination under the banner of "art" and "realism" then you're probably not too far off from defending the right in "real life". Anyhow, the movie was fictional, not a documentary. The opening line was vile and unnecessary to the whole story. Was there even a black person in the movie? Not that I recall. (oh, excuse me there was.. and his name was 'Brown' according to IMDB-- way to go). Too bad Marty wasn't handed his ass a long with the best director award/best picture award.

[first lines]
I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me. Years ago we had the church. That was only a way of saying - we had each other. The Knights of Columbus were real head-breakers; true guineas. They took over their piece of the city. Twenty years after an Irishman couldn't get a fucking job, we had the presidency. May he rest in peace. That's what the niggers don't realize. If I got one thing against the black chappies, it's this - no one gives it to you. You have to take it.
So you would prefer stuff like Adam-12 where the cops are friends with everyone, racism doesn't exist, and the use of force is only ever done when the cops get shot at. Sure I guess if you want all your art to live in a false reality I guess that could be fun if you want to keep your head in the sand.:confused:

[Comrade J]

If you insist on defending someones right to vulgar discrimination under the banner of "art" and "realism" then you're probably not too far off from defending the right in "real life". Anyhow, the movie was fictional, not a documentary. The opening line was vile and unnecessary to the whole story. Was there even a black person in the movie? Not that I recall. (oh, excuse me there was.. and his name was 'Brown' according to IMDB-- way to go). Too bad Marty wasn't handed his ass a long with the best director award/best picture award.

[first lines]
I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me. Years ago we had the church. That was only a way of saying - we had each other. The Knights of Columbus were real head-breakers; true guineas. They took over their piece of the city. Twenty years after an Irishman couldn't get a fucking job, we had the presidency. May he rest in peace. That's what the niggers don't realize. If I got one thing against the black chappies, it's this - no one gives it to you. You have to take it.

Word of advice - never watch Der Untergang (aka Downfall). You won't wanna hear what the little moustached man has to say about Jews! :ohmy:

As for The Departed, I thought it was somewhat average. DiCaprio was alright, although his best performance imo has been in Catch Me If You Can, which is a pretty good film although as usual with these things, the book is better! I don't have any particular opinion of Scorcese - sort of hit and miss for me. However, Goodfellas is in my top 10 of all time.

[coda]

<<Word of advice - never watch Der Untergang (aka Downfall). You won't wanna hear what the little moustached man has to say about Jews! :ohmy:>.

thanks for the advice, mate. I've actually had 'mustached man' friends back in the day.. having been born in the racist homophobic US in the Exact middle of the 1960's.. being a kid/teen/adult in 70's-80's,,, i am way beyond cultural shock -- thank you very much! luckily I still get righteously offended and that is what informs me that I am still consistently on the side I should be!

Look.. who knows why you peeps like (the racism and homophobia that is in ) The Departed' . The film is a complete bore and does not serve any actual purpose --the racism and homophobia is not essential to the story line, nor has any bearing on the story whatsoever. It is just the same old racism that has been churned out for decades. Instead, Let's hope the new crop (and even old crop) of filmmakers shave something more to say and rethink the old cultural edicts that cause more offense and lasting negative influence than is worth for so-called "Realism" sake. Perhaps it is time to 'Depart' from making movies of how societyi s or was and start making movies of how society should be. Yes!... let's move forward!

[GiantMonkeyMan]

:confused: Nobody is supporting the behaviour of the fictional characters within the film, sf. As audiences we are given the unique opportunity to detach ourselves from the intentions of directors and the presentation of the characters within the film and form objective opinions of our own that may run contrary to the opinions of the characters within it or the people who were involved in creating it. Of course this means that you're very much welcome to being 'righteously offended' at the words of a fictional murderer; form your own opinion as you desire.

What people are being confused about is how you seem to be inable to differentiate between liking a movie and supporting the views represented in the movie. I like Romper Stomper but I'm not a racist neo-nazi and similarly I like The Departed but I'm not a murdering, racist homophobe.

And I say make films about what the future could become not what it should become; dystopias are far more entertaining to watch than utopias and you learn more from them. :thumbup1:

[coda]

lame stand,monkey man... of course you can "like" but what is it within you that you are relating to and not repelling.. that is the question,.,....

This quote of yours below is wholly reactionary....

"dystopias are far more entertaining to watch than utopias and you learn more from them. :thumbup1:"

[GiantMonkeyMan]

lame stand,monkey man... of course you can "like" but what is it within you that you are relating to and not repelling.. that is the question,.,....

That's not the question at all. Many factors envoke enjoyment in people even if that enjoyment comes from something they are repulsed by if it occured in real life. People are able to make distinctions between fiction and reality and are able to form a basic opinion of (dis)liking something with that context taken into account.

Also,I obviously missed the memo about enjoying and learning from dystopian fiction being reactionary. Care to expand upon that for me?

[Os Cangaceiros]

If you insist on defending someones right to vulgar discrimination under the banner of "art" and "realism" then you're probably not too far off from defending the right in "real life". Anyhow, the movie was fictional, not a documentary. The opening line was vile and unnecessary to the whole story. Was there even a black person in the movie? Not that I recall. (oh, excuse me there was.. and his name was 'Brown' according to IMDB-- way to go). Too bad Marty wasn't handed his ass a long with the best director award/best picture award.

[first lines]
I don't want to be a product of my environment. I want my environment to be a product of me. Years ago we had the church. That was only a way of saying - we had each other. The Knights of Columbus were real head-breakers; true guineas. They took over their piece of the city. Twenty years after an Irishman couldn't get a fucking job, we had the presidency. May he rest in peace. That's what the niggers don't realize. If I got one thing against the black chappies, it's this - no one gives it to you. You have to take it.

The movie may have been fictional, but that quote was referencing something historic, actually:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation_busing_in_the_United_States#Boston.2 C_Massachusetts

But anyway, like others said, its a movie about real low lifes, they're not going to refer to those African Americans or those Italian Americans lol. Wasn't the black dude in GoodFellas who Joe Pesci executed during the mob purge refered to by a racial epithet too? The horror.

[The Douche]

lame stand,monkey man... of course you can "like" but what is it within you that you are relating to and not repelling.. that is the question,.,....

This quote of yours below is wholly reactionary....

"dystopias are far more entertaining to watch than utopias and you learn more from them. :thumbup1:"

I am repulsed by mobsters and cops, thats why I don't want their portrayals in film to be cleaned up and dumbed down, I want them to be shown for the uneducated, oppressive, power-obsessed assholes that they are.

[Comrade J]

Perhaps it is time to 'Depart' from making movies of how society is or was and start making movies of how society should be. Yes!... let's move forward!

What an absolutely ludicrous statement. You're dismissing the potential for a movie to be a reflection of a subculture, or a fragment of existing society from which others can learn. Also historical films, horror films, science-fiction films, war films etc. are all to be dismissed from now onwards!? :rolleyes:

You seem to be confusing a racist protagonist with a racist film. There are many films with characters that are detestable - I refer you again to Der Untergang as an example, which for those who haven't seen it is about Hitler in his final weeks in the bunker. Despite it being full of repulsive rhetoric, it is nonetheless an excellent film and in no way sympathises with Hitler. So in what way is The Departed any different in that it has a racist character? Sure, it's not a true story, but the point stands - every character in a film doesn't have to be a reflection of the writers' or director's own views.

A racist film would be something completely different and would come down to how the actors were used, whether stereotypes were played on etc. as opposed to what one individual character said.

[eyeheartlenin]

lame stand,monkey man... of course you can "like" but what is it within you that you are relating to and not repelling.. that is the question,.,....

This quote of yours below is wholly reactionary....

"dystopias are far more entertaining to watch than utopias and you learn more from them. :thumbup1:"

I thought 1984, which I have seen in two versions, an earlier one, maybe from the fifties, and one filmed in 1984, around London (the more recent one being better), was a great, very engaging, movie. I also enjoyed Equilibrium and Daybreakers. I think alternate realities and histories are really interesting and make for good cinema. An alternate history really exercises the imagination, I think.

I would imagine that a utopian film, and I cannot think of examples, where all the problems get solved, would be sickly sweet and thin, and so not very engaging. I agree with giant monkey man: let's have more dystopian cinema!

[Thirsty Crow]

If you insist on defending someones right to vulgar discrimination under the banner of "art" and "realism" then you're probably not too far off from defending the right in "real life".
I can't even begin to describe just how much of a bullshit position this is.
I mean, this is pure guilt by association, disregarding some of the most important aspects of the social function of art and cinema, and instead implicitly suggesting that all "socially relevant" art should be produced as fundamentally affirmative (criticism through depiction of what is conceivd as the opposite of what is being criticized).
As I've said, this is horrible reduction at best, and a real example forced political correctness which robs art forms of their potential at worst.

[coda]

<<What an absolutely ludicrous statement. You're dismissing the potential for a movie to be a reflection of a subculture, or a fragment of existing society from which others can learn. Also historical films, horror films, science-fiction films, war films etc. are all to be dismissed from now onwards!? :rolleyes:You seem to be confusing a racist protagonist with a racist film. There are many films with characters that are detestable - I refer you again to Der Untergang as an example, which for those who haven't seen it is about Hitler in his final weeks in the bunker. Despite it being full of repulsive rhetoric, it is nonetheless an excellent film and in no way sympathises with Hitler. So in what way is The Departed any different in that it has a racist character? Sure, it's not a true story, but the point stands - every character in a film doesn't have to be a reflection of the writers' or director's own views. A racist film would be something completely different and would come down to how the actors were used, whether stereotypes were played on etc. as opposed to what one individual character said>>


I think i stated or implied that I don't have a problem with films that portray historical accounts where discrimination is viewed in context. Even fictional dramas where it features as a main storyline if it's handled correctly.

For such an innocuous lightweight and highly implausible plot, (except the casting of Marky Mark as a racist pig) it sure went the length to be crude and offensive. None of the discriminatory language had a bearing on the plot and without it, the story remains completely intact. The Asian depictions were total racist stereotypes as were most of the the Irish, the Irish ethnic pride,the overuse of racial and gay slurs...I don't know about you, but I watch movies to be entertained, not be bombarded with views that degrade and violates a huge cross section of people. It's par for the course with most Scorsese films, though, with very few exceptions...his old skool film making and dialogue is outdated. I can't say I dislike everything he's done.. I love "The Last Waltz", "No Direction Home" and his short film "Life Lessons" from "New York Stories".

[coda]

<<I can't even begin to describe just how much of a bullshit position this is.
I mean, this is pure guilt by association, disregarding some of the most important aspects of the social function of art and cinema, and instead implicitly suggesting that all "socially relevant" art should be produced as fundamentally affirmative (criticism through depiction of what is conceivd as the opposite of what is being criticized).
As I've said, this is horrible reduction at best, and a real example forced political correctness which robs art forms of their potential at worst>>>

Oh the hyperbole!

I feign wish that The Departed was a social function of art and cinema! Are all things on celuloid "Art and cinema"? Are adam sandler and jim carey bathroom humor movies art and cinema?

Someone please do tell the social merits of The Departed. It seems to me such low denominator of entertainment.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I think i stated or implied that I don't have a problem with films that portray historical accounts where discrimination is viewed in context. Even fictional dramas where it features as a main storyline if it's handled correctly.

For such an innocuous lightweight and highly implausible plot, (except the casting of Marky Mark as a racist pig) it sure went the length to be crude and offensive. None of the discriminatory language had a bearing on the plot and without it, the story remains completely intact. The Asian depictions were total racist stereotypes as were most of the the Irish, the Irish ethnic pride,the overuse of racial and gay slurs...I don't know about you, but I watch movies to be entertained, not be bombarded with views that degrade and violates a huge cross section of people. It's par for the course with most Scorsese films, though, with very few exceptions...his old skool film making and dialogue is outdated. I can't say I dislike everything he's done.. I love "The Last Waltz", "No Direction Home" and his short film "Life Lessons" from "New York Stories".

I think this post articulated your point of view much more clearly and I agree with the sentiment of much of it although instead of this cheapening of representation being a product merely of Scorsese it is clearly a symptom of the massified Hollywood culture industry. There is a lot of problematic charicatures that develop out of Hollywood movies and it is our job as an objective audience to recognise and denounce them for the laziness that they are.

Does this mean I should dislike a film for utilising the stereotypes that are so obviously flawed? Well, yes and no. As I have said many times, we have an ability as objective audiences to understand that these stereotypes are a product of the capitalist Hollywood industry that seeks to perpetuate the divides between cultures and ultimately it also allows us to form our own opinions seperate from the influences of the creators of the film. Literature critics call it the 'Death of the Author'; we can derive our own theories, opinions and observations from a film without being affected by this. I enjoyed The Departed not because of Hollywood's approach to characterisation but in spite of it; in particular I enjoy its approach to narrative and the intrigue of the plot.

I would say that foul characters that use foul language aren't entirely heinous representations as much as they are heinous people in the first place and should be treated as such instead of dismissing the entire film as gratuitous. Language is the product of your environment and no doubt these criminals portrayed would be far too comfortable in using these words as opposed to an average person.


Oh the hyperbole!

I feign wish that The Departed was a social function of art and cinema! Are all things on celuloid "Art and cinema"? Are adam sandler and jim carey bathroom humor movies art and cinema?

Someone please do tell the social merits of The Departed. It seems to me such low denominator of entertainment.

I'm afraid that this is where I disagree with you entirely. In my opinion all cinema is art; although you are welcome to disagree with me because it is a debate with much contention. Whether it be Jean-Luc Godard's Two or Three Things I Know About Her or Hollywood's Independance Day it is a piece of media produced for the enjoyment or entertainment of those who watch it. It is the same as comparing a newspaper comic strip and a Picasso piece; both are drawn pieces of art but for very different purposes and for very different audiences. If we can understand the context with which these pieces of art were made then we can formulate opinions of our own not tempered by outside influences but they always remain artistic. In my opinion.

[x359594]

...In my opinion all cinema is art; although you are welcome to disagree with me because it is a debate with much contention. Whether it be Jean-Luc Godard's Two or Three Things I Know About Her or Hollywood's Independance Day it is a piece of media produced for the enjoyment or entertainment of those who watch it. It is the same as comparing a newspaper comic strip and a Picasso piece; both are drawn pieces of art but for very different purposes and for very different audiences. If we can understand the context with which these pieces of art were made then we can formulate opinions of our own not tempered by outside influences but they always remain artistic. In my opinion.

Well said. Popular art is still art; some of it is produced with great skill and sensitivity and some of it is crude and sloppy.

For example, Brecht on Gunga Din (1939, George Stevens director): “In the film ‘Gunga Din,’ based on a short story by Kipling, I saw British occupation forces fighting a native population. An Indian tribe – this term itself implies something wild and uncivilized, as against the word ‘people’- attacked a body of British troops stationed in India. The Indians were primitive creatures, either comic or wicked: comic when loyal to the British and wicked when hostile. The British soldiers were honest, good-humored chaps and when they used their fists on the mob and ‘knocked some sense’ into them the audience laughed. One of the Indians betrayed his compatriots to the British, sacrificed his life so that his fellow-countrymen should be defeated, and earned the audience’s heartfelt applause.

“My heart was touched too: I felt like applauding, and laughed in all the right places. Despite the fact that I knew all the time that there was something wrong, that the Indians are not primitive and uncultured people but have a magnificent age-old culture, and that this Gunga Din could also be seen in a different light, e.g. as a traitor to his people. I was amused and touched because this utterly distorted account was an artistic success and considerable resources in talent and ingenuity had been applied in making it.

“Obviously artistic appreciation of this sort is not without effects. It weakens the good instincts and strengthens the bad, it contradicts true experience and spreads misconceptions, in short it perverts our picture of the the world. There is no play and no theatrical performance which does not in some way or other affect the dispositions and conceptions of the audience. Art is never without consequences, and indeed that says something for it.”


(Brecht errs in referring to Kipling’s poem as a short story.)

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Heh, thanks for reminding me of the glorious Gunga Din; earlier in the year I read an essay, which quoted Brecht, called 'America's Kipling: Gunga Din'. Chapman and Cull: "Gunga Din stood at the end of a long-standing American interest in Kipling and the British Empire and a highly successful series of big budget Hollywood films with imperial themes. British imperialism clearly struck a lucrative chord with the democratic, historically anti-imperial, American public [...] the later career of the British Empire film genre offers commentary on America's own experience of empire."

And, considering it's a racist piece of shite justifying colonialism that was banned in India for its terrible portrayals of the Indian populace, that's certainly saying something. Stuff like Gunga Din is why the moral projectionism used to justify imperialism should be projected inwards and not at the 'savage' natives. There are, however, parts of the film so ridiculous in their portrayals that they almost appear as parody to me so I endure.