Debunking the Culture myth....

[RadioRaheem84]

Talking to a Canadian ex-pat living in Chile who thinks that Chile's crime problem is not due to the Chilean Miracle being unevenly spread. He thinks it's something intrinsic to Chilean culture.

I told him that when inequality rises, crime usually fills the void for marginalized elements.

He said that the connection between crimes, petty ones at that, is a total myth and that it's only a minor contributor to a host of things; mainly cultural.

Where does he get that idea that it's purely cultural and that socio-economic factors are only a minor contribution?

Help me understand his reasoning and why it is false?

[rednordman]

The guy has a rather strange and unorthodox view on things. To not blame crime totally on socio-economic factors is one thing, a lot of people like to do that. But to blame cultural elements, is something that perplexes me. To be honest it sounds like me that as an expat he only been socializing with wealthy Chileans who have benefited from the so called 'Chilean miracle' and the Pinochet regime. Thus only hears their view on things.

I would also like to add that if you where to look into most cultures, they are all riddled with inequality between the powerful and normal folk, so maybe the effect of ancient social-economic factors are often overlooked to how they influenced culture itself.

[RadioRaheem84]

His response:


If you can provide me with data on time series (hopefully for some 30-40 years) for Chile for an inequality measure (Gini, ratio first to fifth quintile etc.) and a normalized crime measure (both violent and non-violent), let's do a regression analysis. I'm quite certain (and bet you a bottle of good wine) that there is no relationship and/or the relationship is statistically not significant.

If you have access to data on a provincial basis, let's also do a cross-sectional analysis. For this analysis I wouldn't take the bet though.

I'm happy to revise my opinion, but would like to do so based on actual data.

Something tells me he is framing the debate.

[the last donut of the night]

if you look at some facts it's easy to see the culture explanation is bullshit. for example, immigrants in america are one of the least-criminal demographic groups in the US. on the other hand, it's latin american and other "third world" cultures that usually are seen as crime/laziness promoters (racist bullshit, of course). it doesn't make sense

[RadioRaheem84]

if you look at some facts it's easy to see the culture explanation is bullshit. for example, immigrants in america are one of the least-criminal demographic groups in the US. on the other hand, it's latin american and other "third world" cultures that usually are seen as crime/laziness promoters (racist bullshit, of course). it doesn't make sense

I think you'd have a hard time trying to convince right wing nationalists that immigrants are not criminally inclined.

[ВАЛТЕР]

I was a immigrant to the US. The first thing my family did was rob a liquor store. jk

Idk what he is trying to prove. I mean it is well established fact that poverty results in crime, whatever the culture is. Look at poor white neighborhoods in the southern US as well, there you will find plenty of crimes as well as other social problems.

[Zealot]

Wait, is he honestly saying that Chileans didn't take hold of "opportunities" because their culture prevents them? That crime isn't linked to socioeconomic factors?

What is his definition of culture because this sounds extremely racist...

[RadioRaheem84]

It is racist. They're ex-pats looking down at the Chileans for not taking the initiative of the Chilean Miracle.

[OHumanista]

"Oh sure, X bunch is lazy and criminically inclined. I on the contrary come from the Y group which is vastly superior and civilized. Examples? My country is powerful, theirs not so much"...

Can you sense the power of fail in this (lack of) logic my young padawan?
It has a lot do to with arrogance, racism, and a total lack of knowledge of how the world works.

EDIT: Ex pats also have this great (and horrible) tendency of thinking they are somehow better

[rednordman]

It is racist. They're ex-pats looking down at the Chileans for not taking the initiative of the Chilean Miracle.How on earth where they going to take advantage in an almost fascist dictatorship? wtf.

[manic expression]

The "culture" argument is pretty paper-thin, all you really have to do is just find a similar situation in another country/culture and it falls apart.

My favorite culture argument is that of Germany. When they talk of present-day Germany, they say "Oh well of course Germany is a modern, pluralistic, forward-looking democracy, they have a great tradition of humanistic thinking and free-minded pragmatism". Then they talk of Hitler, and they say "Oh well of course Germany fell into the darkness of fascism, it has a long tradition of anti-Semitism and suspicion of the Auslander". Then they talk of the DDR, and they say "Oh well of course Germany was ready-made for the problems of communism, it has an old tradition of obedience to authority and communalism"

Basically, they're full of sh*t.

For Chile in specific, I'd ask them to come up with a capitalist economic "miracle" that wasn't "unevenly spread". I highly doubt they will, because it's part-and-parcel of every capitalist society the world has ever known. It's the same in Chile, Macedonia, Mongolia, Micronesia, Maryland or Kalamazoo.

That being said, I do think cultural expectations and mindsets affect political and social realities, but for the above reason it's very observable that they aren't primary movers in human affairs.

[RadioRaheem84]

I stopped talking to one of the ex-pats who is cleary a right wing nationalist that lives in the Southern Cone where a lot of German immigrants with racist ideas live.

The other though seems more reasonable and he keeps insisting that I show him hard data about a correlation between income disparity and rising crime. He thinks there is no evidence.

He seems like an economist or a statiscian and wants concrete evidence. Help?

[RadioRaheem84]

When they resort to being a grammar nazi, is that the end of the debate?

He picked out two errors in my posts and turned into some ordeal that I am unqualified to debate him. :confused:

[GPDP]

When they resort to being a grammar nazi, is that the end of the debate?

He picked out two errors in my posts and turned into some ordeal that I am unqualified to debate him. :confused:

Pretty much. Anyone that pulls that crap is unworthy of debate in my book.

[Jose Gracchus]

Talking to a Canadian ex-pat living in Chile who thinks that Chile's crime problem is not due to the Chilean Miracle being unevenly spread. He thinks it's something intrinsic to Chilean culture.

I told him that when inequality rises, crime usually fills the void for marginalized elements.

He said that the connection between crimes, petty ones at that, is a total myth and that it's only a minor contributor to a host of things; mainly cultural.

Where does he get that idea that it's purely cultural and that socio-economic factors are only a minor contribution?

Help me understand his reasoning and why it is false?

If its due to "culture", than the "cause" is omnipresent and thus cannot be used as evidence for any sort of change. Why does Chilean crime not stay the same over the 20th c.? There's been no mass influx of immigration or anything other element to change or dilute 'culture', which according to your friend is the only plausible causal agent.

[GPDP]

To be fair, culture seems to be a common scapegoat term in Latin America, or at the very least in Mexico. When people talk about Mexico's problems, a lot of the more conservative Mexicans tend to put the blame squarely on the lack of culture and education that poor people have. I know my dad pulls that card all the time when speaking of crime-ridden neighborhoods.

[RadioRaheem84]

Pretty much. Anyone that pulls that crap is unworthy of debate in my book.

It really it takes a toll on me though considering I know that this is one of the best tools liberals and conservatives use to attack people with differing views, especially anti-establishment ones.

They try to discredit your main arguments by picking at the grammar, diction and spelling.

I have a problem with dyslexia but it took several posts until the guy routinely questioned my ability to communicate. He seemed to understand the argument just fine until I flubbed. After that, there was no going back.

A lot of us come from undereducated, self taught backgrounds. I went to a good school, but it was mostly through tutors, spell checks and constantly editing my work in order to pass.

One thing the ruling class will have on us is many years of formal education and an elitist tone to mock their detractors into conceding defeat.